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Libby Jackson
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Posted - 2006.06.30 18:51:00 -
[1]
* Cranks up the Thermal Shielding *
A lot of people seem to be whining about the DPS and ease of use for the Raven (and to a certain extent). While I see their reasoning I have two counter arguments.
1) Delayed Damage - In most games it is considered fair for delayed damage weapons to be more powerful than insta damage. Try gate camping with a Raven. You can park way out from the sentrys range and shoot your missiles. Your prey then has the time to get up, go get a drink, eat dinner, watch the simpsons, sit back down and warp away while the missiles are still inbound.
Thus it is not unreasonable to have an advantage about having to wait a few seconds for the weapon to it. Extra damage and a no chance of missing seems fair.
2) Lack of Versatility - Lets be honest with ourselsves and compare two tier two battleships, the Raven and the Apoc. The Apoc can fit a lot of different configurations depending on what you want to do. You can fit arty (no damage bonus for lasers, remember?) and use all that wonderful cap for other nice things like armor reps. If you are short of money and need to rat, one good set of lasers and crystals will have you getting bountys and loot without paying up for ammo in either mins or isk. And if your insurance runs out and you are really paranoid and really poor you can mine in .5 systems until you get more money.
With a Raven you can .... fight. Thats it. NPC or PVP since CCP never implemented a mining missile. And God Forbid you should ever try to NPC on a budget. You can a) refine loot and build torps and cruiser or b) sell loot for ammo. This is undesirable since it cuts into the bottom line.
Basically your average missile boat isnt as flexable as a turret boat.
Just my thoughts.
* Braces for Flame War *
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Rollback ECM! |
Robotek Hybrid
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Posted - 2006.06.30 18:57:00 -
[2]
3) Torps have EXTREME delayed damage at long range and cruise have lower dps than torps at close range. No switching ammo types for range differential to get the most out of your weapons.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.30 18:58:00 -
[3]
You have missed the point in overpowered.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:00:00 -
[4]
You do know that being "overpowered" is comparing the netto effect of the ship and not the brutto numericals, right?
Or in other words, a ship can not be justified being overpowered because of delayed damage, instead it will be overpowered inspite of delayed damage. You follow?
Delayed damage is a negative aspect that merits the ship to be better in some other aspect in order to maintain balance - overpowered is when balance is not maintained.
New sig coming soonÖ
By "soon" I do not necessarily mean "this year" |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:02:00 -
[5]
Edited by: HippoKing on 30/06/2006 19:02:43
^^ thats what I was getting at 
edit: thats about ithil's post 
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errorist
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:02:00 -
[6]
This about the raven being overpowered is not about only bringing forth the Down parts of missiles... I got medium good gunnery skills... my blasters still miss 3 out of 6 times... missiles always hit... The raven has to much DPS compared to a gun boat that requires minimum 5 mill sp in gunnery just to be able to use t2 guns and hit decent and actually being able to take on the raven, since it has no optimal, always hits and Is one of the best tanking ships in eve.
To get t2 Cruise launchers You need 2 lvl 5 skills -.- look at a Neutron Blaster Cannon, IT requires Motion prediction lvl 5 Gunnery lvl 5 Small hybrid lvl 5 and spec lvl 4 medium hybrid 5 and spec lvl 4, Large hybrid lvl 5 and then Spec to a decent lvl do have a advantage over named guns.
answer your question `
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errorist
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:03:00 -
[7]
Edited by: errorist on 30/06/2006 19:03:30
Further more... After Rmr raven is about the only ship that can solo all lvl 4 missions
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:06:00 -
[8]
/me thinks the Raven is very balanced. It is so balanced that it is at the verge of being space junk.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Dragy
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:06:00 -
[9]
And the worst thing is that you only need about 5mil sp (only to fly raven) and then you can defeat a person who has about 20mil sp in minmatar without any problem
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:07:00 -
[10]
 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me thinks the Raven is very balanced. It is so balanced that it is at the verge of being space junk.
but as far as I know, you only fly caldari BSs, so you probably aren't in the best place to judge that 
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:11:00 -
[11]
Now, for a bit more indepth on what you are actually writing.
Delayed damage
While exagregating heavily, you've got a point. More damage? No. Not more damage. There are other things that are good about a ship! And besides, we need this community to be less dps horny.
Oh, and there is no chance of missing already.
Lack of versatility
I disagree strongly. Flying both Gallente and Amarr ships, if there's one thing I miss then it's versatility! I can fly Ravens, too, albeit with very low skills, but when I've dabbled I've found versatility to be very high because of the different configurations affordable by the high amount of mid slots.
It is only on paper that long range versus short range turret configuration seem like versatility, but barring fleet fights only the Raven and Scorpion can fight at both ranges inspite of being fitted for short range. I even get more versatility from the increased mid slots of a Dominix, inspite of this being the least versetile ship in game when it comes to range. (Long range Domi is feasible, but very far from an optimal set up)
Mining
You've got the best short-on-money mining ship in game! Osprey!
Hunting
The Raven is the best hunter out there. It's only beaten on Sansha and Blood Raiders by another battleship. And if you can't afford the Cruise Missiles, then fit lasers of your own until you can! Nothing's stopping you.
New sig coming soonÖ
By "soon" I do not necessarily mean "this year" |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me thinks the Raven is very balanced. It is so balanced that it is at the verge of being space junk.
but as far as I know, you only fly caldari BSs, so you probably aren't in the best place to judge that
May be I am an alt of someone?
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me thinks the Raven is very balanced. It is so balanced that it is at the verge of being space junk.
but as far as I know, you only fly caldari BSs, so you probably aren't in the best place to judge that
May be I am an alt of someone?
Are you? 
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Dragy
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:17:00 -
[14]
Why did you erase the topick name  cause you didnt want to be more flamed
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dragy
Why did you erase the topick name cause you didnt want to be more flamed
its a bug in the forum. if you use the preview function while editing the OP of a thread, the topic vanishes
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Wilfan Ret'nub
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Libby Jackson
With a Raven you can .... fight. Thats it.
Hm, ever heard of Burn Eden? (this thread definitely needs more flaming  )
Originally by: Libby Jackson
And God Forbid you should ever try to NPC on a budget. You can a) refine loot and build torps and cruiser or b) sell loot for ammo. This is undesirable since it cuts into the bottom line.
Yea, god forbid I get 3 named rats in a row, coz I have to refine all their loot for torps...
Damage ingcrese you get with torpedoes and the general no-brain ratting with Raven save you more than enough time to pop a spawn more for that recycle loot.
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Dragy
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:29:00 -
[17]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Dragy
Why did you erase the topick name cause you didnt want to be more flamed
its a bug in the forum. if you use the preview function while editing the OP of a thread, the topic vanishes
I withdraw everything what i said then
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Libby Jackson
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:35:00 -
[18]
Fixed topic title.
I think a point that is seldom visited in addition to the Damage is the fact that you can only fight in a Raven. 4 turret slots arent going to cut it if you needed to carebear some ore.
This isnt so much for senior players who have a hanger full of BSs and Mining Barges but more for the mid time players who have enough money for exactly 1 battleship and its insurance.
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Rollback ECM! |
Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: errorist
Edited by: errorist on 30/06/2006 19:03:30
Further more... After Rmr raven is about the only ship that can solo all lvl 4 missions
And that makes it ok to suck for anything else?
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Jinx Barker
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me thinks the Raven is very balanced. It is so balanced that it is at the verge of being space junk.
/me hugs Jenny.
Honestly I do not have issues with Raven when it comes to its "civilian" implimentations. As far as I am concerned I am happy that the ship is designed exclusivley for combat, or was intended to be exclusivley for combat.
I doggedly specialised in Caldari tech, allthoguh I have just started training projectiles, since Missiles and PVP, well its difficult when you dont have a good support, lets leave it at that.
My only concern with Caldari overall, and specifically with Raven and Scorpion - is their agility, but I have a feeling all of EVE knows that by now.
I wish Raven had a few extra perks, but soon enough it will be a moot point for me since I will be using Arties. I just hope I will not turn into those people who dont really care anymore and simply chuk my Caldari specialisation skills to bad judgement.
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Prestis
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:44:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Prestis on 30/06/2006 19:46:44
Delayed damage means very little outside of fleet situations. It's only really the first volley that's ever delayed. After that the damage is constant.
And lack of versatility? With most turrets only one type is ever efficent - the other 2 are usually hilariously underpowered - ie. with Projectiles only the 150, 220 and 1400s are ever seriously used.
Also, all missiles are balanced DPS wise to be slightly under short range turret DPS - which they usually outrange by 50 times or more. Long range turrets are way under all missile DPS. And range. But can still miss!
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Cohkka
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Posted - 2006.06.30 20:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: errorist
Edited by: errorist on 30/06/2006 19:03:30
Further more... After Rmr raven is about the only ship that can solo all lvl 4 missions
And that makes it ok to suck for anything else?
Omg, the drama queen. Are you being serious or just typing random BS here?
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Grey Area
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Posted - 2006.07.01 10:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: errorist
Edited by: errorist on 30/06/2006 19:03:30
Further more... After Rmr raven is about the only ship that can solo all lvl 4 missions
This is NOT a fault of the Raven, it is a fault of CCP's concept of mission design. They seem ot have a policy of "If this is a level 4 mission, then it must be all Battleships".
If you REALLY want to challenge a Raven on a level 4 mission, then have spawns of entireley small, well shielded ships.
If you can't understand what I'm driving at...say the words "20 Merceneary Wingman Spawn" to a Raven pilot. When he has crawled back out from under his sofa, ask him to explain the wet patch down the front of his pants.
Now imagine a deadspace location with 4 or 5 spawns of this size and type.
Of course the same mission would then be a walkover for the Dominix - so since we now have deadspace (and have had for some time), why not plan it so that the small ships are in the first wave, and then we revert back to the battleship/cruiser mix on subsequent waves - and then maybe have all small ships again on a later one.
And, just so we don't get complacent, why not randomize the levels - so sometimes it would be BS's first, then 'ceptors, or sometimes the other way around.
The Raven is a ship that is good at ONE thing. In my opinion then, it's not the ship that needs a nerf, but the difficulty of the one thoing that needs to be increased.
Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Taurgil
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Posted - 2006.07.02 00:41:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Taurgil on 02/07/2006 00:42:33
The problem as stated above lies in the missiles not in the Raven itself, *IMHO*.
Missiles have two advantages except from fleet battles:
- high dps due to no miss and other effects like damage type swappable and no cap use
- low skill requirements for specialisation
Solution:
- *slightly* (!) boost in tracking and other "features" of turrets like falloff
- lowering the SP cost of turret specialisation, this will annoy those who trained them up, but anyway, it seems to be the best way to deal with the prob
PS: Overpowering of ships happens in other ways: Like the manticore, having one launcher more than the other bombers with no serious explanation. Another example: Ships with a mix of launcher and turret HPs but bonus only to one type of HPs.
PPS: Such boosts will also be of profit for Missile users, if they want to try another races' ship or weapon system. or the new tier 3 Caldari BS.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.07.02 00:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Libby Jackson
2) Lack of Versatility
Yes, versatility only comes from high slots, not from midslots or lowslots
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delta2zero
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Posted - 2006.07.02 01:36:00 -
[26]
so you want missiles to be totally overpowered to the point that u can fight close range and no other ship stands a chance? i think you didnt think about what you are suggesting for long enough
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Mogrin
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Posted - 2006.07.02 03:45:00 -
[27]
For being the worst battleship in fleet battles, isn't being the best in missions forgivable?
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.07.02 04:04:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Libby Jackson
2) Lack of Versatility - Lets be honest with ourselsves and compare two tier two battleships, the Raven and the Apoc. The Apoc can fit a lot of different configurations depending on what you want to do.
LOL
Hahahhahahah, you made my day.
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Cathandra
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Posted - 2006.07.02 04:09:00 -
[29]
Hmm.. I wander why pretty much only Caldarians complain about Caldari ships being weak, and Amarrians complain about Amarr ships being weak.. maybe a little bit of bias?
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Foulis
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Posted - 2006.07.02 06:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Libby Jackson
And God Forbid you should ever try to NPC on a budget. You can a) refine loot and build torps and cruiser or b) sell loot for ammo. This is undesirable since it cuts into the bottom line.
Soooo.... Let me delve into my market history.....
Ahhhh yes. My weekly ammo budget when I was hunting in a wolf. I had to buy 250 THOUSAND rounds of emp. Every week. I went through about 30k rounds a day. Do you know why? I had an ROF that was dipping down to one second. You are not the only people who have to buy ammo. Not by a longshot.
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Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Boobies
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