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Libby Jackson
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Posted - 2006.06.30 18:51:00 -
[1]
* Cranks up the Thermal Shielding *
A lot of people seem to be whining about the DPS and ease of use for the Raven (and to a certain extent). While I see their reasoning I have two counter arguments.
1) Delayed Damage - In most games it is considered fair for delayed damage weapons to be more powerful than insta damage. Try gate camping with a Raven. You can park way out from the sentrys range and shoot your missiles. Your prey then has the time to get up, go get a drink, eat dinner, watch the simpsons, sit back down and warp away while the missiles are still inbound.
Thus it is not unreasonable to have an advantage about having to wait a few seconds for the weapon to it. Extra damage and a no chance of missing seems fair.
2) Lack of Versatility - Lets be honest with ourselsves and compare two tier two battleships, the Raven and the Apoc. The Apoc can fit a lot of different configurations depending on what you want to do. You can fit arty (no damage bonus for lasers, remember?) and use all that wonderful cap for other nice things like armor reps. If you are short of money and need to rat, one good set of lasers and crystals will have you getting bountys and loot without paying up for ammo in either mins or isk. And if your insurance runs out and you are really paranoid and really poor you can mine in .5 systems until you get more money.
With a Raven you can .... fight. Thats it. NPC or PVP since CCP never implemented a mining missile. And God Forbid you should ever try to NPC on a budget. You can a) refine loot and build torps and cruiser or b) sell loot for ammo. This is undesirable since it cuts into the bottom line.
Basically your average missile boat isnt as flexable as a turret boat.
Just my thoughts.
* Braces for Flame War *
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Rollback ECM! |
Robotek Hybrid
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Posted - 2006.06.30 18:57:00 -
[2]
3) Torps have EXTREME delayed damage at long range and cruise have lower dps than torps at close range. No switching ammo types for range differential to get the most out of your weapons.
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.30 18:58:00 -
[3]
You have missed the point in overpowered.
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:00:00 -
[4]
You do know that being "overpowered" is comparing the netto effect of the ship and not the brutto numericals, right?
Or in other words, a ship can not be justified being overpowered because of delayed damage, instead it will be overpowered inspite of delayed damage. You follow?
Delayed damage is a negative aspect that merits the ship to be better in some other aspect in order to maintain balance - overpowered is when balance is not maintained.
New sig coming soonÖ
By "soon" I do not necessarily mean "this year" |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:02:00 -
[5]
Edited by: HippoKing on 30/06/2006 19:02:43
^^ thats what I was getting at 
edit: thats about ithil's post 
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errorist
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:02:00 -
[6]
This about the raven being overpowered is not about only bringing forth the Down parts of missiles... I got medium good gunnery skills... my blasters still miss 3 out of 6 times... missiles always hit... The raven has to much DPS compared to a gun boat that requires minimum 5 mill sp in gunnery just to be able to use t2 guns and hit decent and actually being able to take on the raven, since it has no optimal, always hits and Is one of the best tanking ships in eve.
To get t2 Cruise launchers You need 2 lvl 5 skills -.- look at a Neutron Blaster Cannon, IT requires Motion prediction lvl 5 Gunnery lvl 5 Small hybrid lvl 5 and spec lvl 4 medium hybrid 5 and spec lvl 4, Large hybrid lvl 5 and then Spec to a decent lvl do have a advantage over named guns.
answer your question `
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errorist
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:03:00 -
[7]
Edited by: errorist on 30/06/2006 19:03:30
Further more... After Rmr raven is about the only ship that can solo all lvl 4 missions
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:06:00 -
[8]
/me thinks the Raven is very balanced. It is so balanced that it is at the verge of being space junk.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Dragy
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:06:00 -
[9]
And the worst thing is that you only need about 5mil sp (only to fly raven) and then you can defeat a person who has about 20mil sp in minmatar without any problem
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:07:00 -
[10]
 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me thinks the Raven is very balanced. It is so balanced that it is at the verge of being space junk.
but as far as I know, you only fly caldari BSs, so you probably aren't in the best place to judge that 
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Ithildin
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:11:00 -
[11]
Now, for a bit more indepth on what you are actually writing.
Delayed damage
While exagregating heavily, you've got a point. More damage? No. Not more damage. There are other things that are good about a ship! And besides, we need this community to be less dps horny.
Oh, and there is no chance of missing already.
Lack of versatility
I disagree strongly. Flying both Gallente and Amarr ships, if there's one thing I miss then it's versatility! I can fly Ravens, too, albeit with very low skills, but when I've dabbled I've found versatility to be very high because of the different configurations affordable by the high amount of mid slots.
It is only on paper that long range versus short range turret configuration seem like versatility, but barring fleet fights only the Raven and Scorpion can fight at both ranges inspite of being fitted for short range. I even get more versatility from the increased mid slots of a Dominix, inspite of this being the least versetile ship in game when it comes to range. (Long range Domi is feasible, but very far from an optimal set up)
Mining
You've got the best short-on-money mining ship in game! Osprey!
Hunting
The Raven is the best hunter out there. It's only beaten on Sansha and Blood Raiders by another battleship. And if you can't afford the Cruise Missiles, then fit lasers of your own until you can! Nothing's stopping you.
New sig coming soonÖ
By "soon" I do not necessarily mean "this year" |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me thinks the Raven is very balanced. It is so balanced that it is at the verge of being space junk.
but as far as I know, you only fly caldari BSs, so you probably aren't in the best place to judge that
May be I am an alt of someone?
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me thinks the Raven is very balanced. It is so balanced that it is at the verge of being space junk.
but as far as I know, you only fly caldari BSs, so you probably aren't in the best place to judge that
May be I am an alt of someone?
Are you? 
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Dragy
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:17:00 -
[14]
Why did you erase the topick name  cause you didnt want to be more flamed
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:22:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dragy
Why did you erase the topick name cause you didnt want to be more flamed
its a bug in the forum. if you use the preview function while editing the OP of a thread, the topic vanishes
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Wilfan Ret'nub
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:26:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Libby Jackson
With a Raven you can .... fight. Thats it.
Hm, ever heard of Burn Eden? (this thread definitely needs more flaming  )
Originally by: Libby Jackson
And God Forbid you should ever try to NPC on a budget. You can a) refine loot and build torps and cruiser or b) sell loot for ammo. This is undesirable since it cuts into the bottom line.
Yea, god forbid I get 3 named rats in a row, coz I have to refine all their loot for torps...
Damage ingcrese you get with torpedoes and the general no-brain ratting with Raven save you more than enough time to pop a spawn more for that recycle loot.
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Dragy
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:29:00 -
[17]
Originally by: HippoKing
Originally by: Dragy
Why did you erase the topick name cause you didnt want to be more flamed
its a bug in the forum. if you use the preview function while editing the OP of a thread, the topic vanishes
I withdraw everything what i said then
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Libby Jackson
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:35:00 -
[18]
Fixed topic title.
I think a point that is seldom visited in addition to the Damage is the fact that you can only fight in a Raven. 4 turret slots arent going to cut it if you needed to carebear some ore.
This isnt so much for senior players who have a hanger full of BSs and Mining Barges but more for the mid time players who have enough money for exactly 1 battleship and its insurance.
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Rollback ECM! |
Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: errorist
Edited by: errorist on 30/06/2006 19:03:30
Further more... After Rmr raven is about the only ship that can solo all lvl 4 missions
And that makes it ok to suck for anything else?
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Jinx Barker
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:42:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
/me thinks the Raven is very balanced. It is so balanced that it is at the verge of being space junk.
/me hugs Jenny.
Honestly I do not have issues with Raven when it comes to its "civilian" implimentations. As far as I am concerned I am happy that the ship is designed exclusivley for combat, or was intended to be exclusivley for combat.
I doggedly specialised in Caldari tech, allthoguh I have just started training projectiles, since Missiles and PVP, well its difficult when you dont have a good support, lets leave it at that.
My only concern with Caldari overall, and specifically with Raven and Scorpion - is their agility, but I have a feeling all of EVE knows that by now.
I wish Raven had a few extra perks, but soon enough it will be a moot point for me since I will be using Arties. I just hope I will not turn into those people who dont really care anymore and simply chuk my Caldari specialisation skills to bad judgement.
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Prestis
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Posted - 2006.06.30 19:44:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Prestis on 30/06/2006 19:46:44
Delayed damage means very little outside of fleet situations. It's only really the first volley that's ever delayed. After that the damage is constant.
And lack of versatility? With most turrets only one type is ever efficent - the other 2 are usually hilariously underpowered - ie. with Projectiles only the 150, 220 and 1400s are ever seriously used.
Also, all missiles are balanced DPS wise to be slightly under short range turret DPS - which they usually outrange by 50 times or more. Long range turrets are way under all missile DPS. And range. But can still miss!
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Cohkka
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Posted - 2006.06.30 20:18:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
Originally by: errorist
Edited by: errorist on 30/06/2006 19:03:30
Further more... After Rmr raven is about the only ship that can solo all lvl 4 missions
And that makes it ok to suck for anything else?
Omg, the drama queen. Are you being serious or just typing random BS here?
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Grey Area
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Posted - 2006.07.01 10:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: errorist
Edited by: errorist on 30/06/2006 19:03:30
Further more... After Rmr raven is about the only ship that can solo all lvl 4 missions
This is NOT a fault of the Raven, it is a fault of CCP's concept of mission design. They seem ot have a policy of "If this is a level 4 mission, then it must be all Battleships".
If you REALLY want to challenge a Raven on a level 4 mission, then have spawns of entireley small, well shielded ships.
If you can't understand what I'm driving at...say the words "20 Merceneary Wingman Spawn" to a Raven pilot. When he has crawled back out from under his sofa, ask him to explain the wet patch down the front of his pants.
Now imagine a deadspace location with 4 or 5 spawns of this size and type.
Of course the same mission would then be a walkover for the Dominix - so since we now have deadspace (and have had for some time), why not plan it so that the small ships are in the first wave, and then we revert back to the battleship/cruiser mix on subsequent waves - and then maybe have all small ships again on a later one.
And, just so we don't get complacent, why not randomize the levels - so sometimes it would be BS's first, then 'ceptors, or sometimes the other way around.
The Raven is a ship that is good at ONE thing. In my opinion then, it's not the ship that needs a nerf, but the difficulty of the one thoing that needs to be increased.
Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
Taurgil
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Posted - 2006.07.02 00:41:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Taurgil on 02/07/2006 00:42:33
The problem as stated above lies in the missiles not in the Raven itself, *IMHO*.
Missiles have two advantages except from fleet battles:
- high dps due to no miss and other effects like damage type swappable and no cap use
- low skill requirements for specialisation
Solution:
- *slightly* (!) boost in tracking and other "features" of turrets like falloff
- lowering the SP cost of turret specialisation, this will annoy those who trained them up, but anyway, it seems to be the best way to deal with the prob
PS: Overpowering of ships happens in other ways: Like the manticore, having one launcher more than the other bombers with no serious explanation. Another example: Ships with a mix of launcher and turret HPs but bonus only to one type of HPs.
PPS: Such boosts will also be of profit for Missile users, if they want to try another races' ship or weapon system. or the new tier 3 Caldari BS.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2006.07.02 00:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Libby Jackson
2) Lack of Versatility
Yes, versatility only comes from high slots, not from midslots or lowslots
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delta2zero
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Posted - 2006.07.02 01:36:00 -
[26]
so you want missiles to be totally overpowered to the point that u can fight close range and no other ship stands a chance? i think you didnt think about what you are suggesting for long enough
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Mogrin
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Posted - 2006.07.02 03:45:00 -
[27]
For being the worst battleship in fleet battles, isn't being the best in missions forgivable?
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Meridius
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Posted - 2006.07.02 04:04:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Libby Jackson
2) Lack of Versatility - Lets be honest with ourselsves and compare two tier two battleships, the Raven and the Apoc. The Apoc can fit a lot of different configurations depending on what you want to do.
LOL
Hahahhahahah, you made my day.
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Cathandra
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Posted - 2006.07.02 04:09:00 -
[29]
Hmm.. I wander why pretty much only Caldarians complain about Caldari ships being weak, and Amarrians complain about Amarr ships being weak.. maybe a little bit of bias?
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Foulis
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Posted - 2006.07.02 06:27:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Libby Jackson
And God Forbid you should ever try to NPC on a budget. You can a) refine loot and build torps and cruiser or b) sell loot for ammo. This is undesirable since it cuts into the bottom line.
Soooo.... Let me delve into my market history.....
Ahhhh yes. My weekly ammo budget when I was hunting in a wolf. I had to buy 250 THOUSAND rounds of emp. Every week. I went through about 30k rounds a day. Do you know why? I had an ROF that was dipping down to one second. You are not the only people who have to buy ammo. Not by a longshot.
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Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Boobies
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Hugh Ruka
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Posted - 2006.07.02 06:47:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Foulis
Originally by: Libby Jackson
And God Forbid you should ever try to NPC on a budget. You can a) refine loot and build torps and cruiser or b) sell loot for ammo. This is undesirable since it cuts into the bottom line.
Soooo.... Let me delve into my market history.....
Ahhhh yes. My weekly ammo budget when I was hunting in a wolf. I had to buy 250 THOUSAND rounds of emp. Every week. I went through about 30k rounds a day. Do you know why? I had an ROF that was dipping down to one second. You are not the only people who have to buy ammo. Not by a longshot.
I'd say the ammo comparison was the wrong one :-) I need to shoot a few 80k cruisers for a cargo load of cruises anyway. they pay very good for the damage delivered.
oh and about the turrets vs missiles thing. the only advantage of missiles is that I do not need to move my ship into range. I experimented with a rail/blaster/ac moa recently. my gunnery skills are pretty average (all l4 in hybrid, l3 in projectiles with support at l4, no spec skills). the way 4 limited neuts eat through rats (with 2 mag stabs t2) is something scary. for the record, I am shooting angel rats with weakest resist to explosive, yet the moa outdamages my caracal by a bit. as I said, the only problem is to get the ship into range.
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if you want peace, prepare for war ...
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well |
Ghargon
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Posted - 2006.07.02 07:05:00 -
[32]
Originally by: errorist
This about the raven being overpowered is not about only bringing forth the Down parts of missiles... I got medium good gunnery skills... my blasters still miss 3 out of 6 times... missiles always hit... The raven has to much DPS compared to a gun boat that requires minimum 5 mill sp in gunnery just to be able to use t2 guns and hit decent and actually being able to take on the raven, since it has no optimal, always hits and Is one of the best tanking ships in eve.
To get t2 Cruise launchers You need 2 lvl 5 skills -.- look at a Neutron Blaster Cannon, IT requires Motion prediction lvl 5 Gunnery lvl 5 Small hybrid lvl 5 and spec lvl 4 medium hybrid 5 and spec lvl 4, Large hybrid lvl 5 and then Spec to a decent lvl do have a advantage over named guns.
answer your question `
You are right only slightly on this point. I agree that the actual skill prerequisites are much lower than those for any tech2 guns however the simple fact is that without the support skills (missle bombardment etc) trained up to the same level as is needed for guns, your missles suck. The thing about the raven is that although everyone complains about it being overpowered even if you are fitting 3 bcu 2's in pvp your still going to be outdamaged by pretty much any other ship with t2 fittings. And although every other person in eve has a raven they do require large amounts of sp to fly properly. Personally i think now that theyve nerfed precisions and missles in general i feel that the raven is a pretty balanced ship.
I never think of the future - It comes soon enough |
mahhy
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Posted - 2006.07.02 07:07:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Libby Jackson
2) Lack of Versatility - Lets be honest with ourselsves and compare two tier two battleships, the Raven and the Apoc. The Apoc can fit a lot of different configurations depending on what you want to do. You can fit arty (no damage bonus for lasers, remember?) and use all that wonderful cap for other nice things like armor reps. If you are short of money and need to rat, one good set of lasers and crystals will have you getting bountys and loot without paying up for ammo in either mins or isk. And if your insurance runs out and you are really paranoid and really poor you can mine in .5 systems until you get more money.
With a Raven you can .... fight. Thats it. NPC or PVP since CCP never implemented a mining missile. And God Forbid you should ever try to NPC on a budget. You can a) refine loot and build torps and cruiser or b) sell loot for ammo. This is undesirable since it cuts into the bottom line.
An Apoc is more versatile than a Raven? An Apoc may be able to mine, but lack of midslots will forever restrict its PVP fits, making it, along with the Geddon, the least flexible BS.
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Jon Xylur
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Posted - 2006.07.02 09:22:00 -
[34]
1) Delayed damage doesn't matter at close range. Think of Raven as a close range ship thta can hit across distance but suffers a dmage delay. Don't see how this justifies it being overpowered, as other close range ships like B-Thron and AC-pest can't hit across distances eighter, exept they don't do any dmaage at all while Raven will still do delayed damage.
2)Lack of versitility? We ttalking about the same ship? The one that can do any damage type just by reloading it's kaunchers with different missiles, without having to change range or wait till drone come back+ The one that can mount a hevay tank or pwn stuff with ECM? As far as I'm concerned, the Ravne is the second most versitile BS ou there, rigth after Domi (Phoon is 3rd dause it tries to be versitile but ends uo sucking in evrything)
I don't think eighter of those are good reason for Raven to eb better that other BSs. Just nerf/balance tha damn torp spewing BBQmobile allready!
Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, and not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty - Cortes |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.07.02 09:32:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Libby Jackson
2) Lack of Versatility - Lets be honest with ourselsves and compare two tier two battleships, the Raven and the Apoc. The Apoc can fit a lot of different configurations depending on what you want to do.
LOL
Hahahhahahah, you made my day.
I'd been looking a forum-mirror and saying "Meridius" 5 times repeatedly for a quite a while before you showing up in this thread
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Deathbarrage
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Posted - 2006.07.02 10:12:00 -
[36]
honestly m8 i really stopped taking you seriously in any way when you stated that the apoc is more versatile then the raven
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Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2006.07.02 10:17:00 -
[37]
Ok well lets take the typical BE setup
HI: T2 torp launchers, mix of different Javelin torp types.
MID: SB and T2 sensor dampeners
LOW: WCS and BCS T2
Now couple this with an interdictor who can cloak and jump through a gate when he drops a bubble and you are pretty much set, if the dictor meets a camp on the other side, hit mwd and cloak, the momentum breaks will carry you back to the gate fast and break locks.
This setup can basically delvier massive dmage to BS and with torps running at about 7kms plus time to target isn't huge. The engagement envelope is from 0 to 200km plus with the same damage and at 80km and below you form your own EW wing as well. Hard to catch as the only way is to drop an interdictor using an covert, stilletos can be one volleyed with ease as the torps will do massive damage to inties as well as BS. Not to mention the spead penalty means getting up to warp is faster.
Funilly enough that is why every raven pilot in Huzzah is now training or adopting this configuration, your cookie cutter I Win BS setup.
President
Huzzah Federation
Play EVE on the hard setting, join us. |
Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.07.02 10:28:00 -
[38]
versatility is high number number of mid slots
versatility IS NOT high number of high slots and low slots. that's damage (doesn't apply to certain cases)
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Originally by: Abdalion
Originally by: Jebidus Skari
What, in EVE, is a Tyrant?
Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
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Dutch Mill
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Posted - 2006.07.02 11:11:00 -
[39]
The Raven is good as it is.. Notting wrong with it.
I So hope CCP isnt gonna nerve it some more...
always this crying about the Raven.. Get one yourself then!! 
yarr
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.07.02 11:31:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Hans Roaming
Ok well lets take the typical BE setup
HI: T2 torp launchers, mix of different Javelin torp types.
MID: SB and T2 sensor dampeners
LOW: WCS and BCS T2
Well, Raven is only good with WCS in PvP. Most tanking for cruisers need at least 5 slots. Battleships need at least 7. Ravens mid-low 6/5 arent good for tanking. 7/4 might be nice for shield tanking. Though it is a little versatile than other races BS because you can armour tank a little and fit EWAR. Then again, Raven's tanking power isnt good unless you are using officer mods. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Manfred Sideous
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Posted - 2006.07.04 16:30:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Manfred Sideous on 04/07/2006 16:35:03
Im a 6 mil SP Raven pilot and just got T2 torps a month ago. I feel like I went from the BS pilot that everyone pitied to doing crazy DPS. I mean I fly with 20+ mil SP pilots and with my setup im usually top dmg on all killmails.
I have a love hate relationship with my Caldari ships. I love the dmg and the range hitting at 220KM is awesome ( Gate Camp Breaker). But at the same time I want so bad to be a sniper and thats not gonna happen flying Caldari ships. Well other than moa/eagle but I digress.
I have become a credit to my alliance with only 6mil SP investment. As I write this im now training hybrid turret skills and going to start training Gallente ships. Thorax Ishkur Mega are so hawt. But until im proficient with them my trusty Raven will carry me through!!
Edit* Addition
I can see how the Ravenis a bit overpowered. With my 6mil SP my Raven has T2 modules in every slot. My best friend who started playing the same time as I did cant harly undock his tempast without being laughed at for the sad dmg it dies with his 6mil SP's. But I know when were at the 15-20 mil SP range he will be owning me in the face.
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Hans Roaming
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Posted - 2006.07.04 17:47:00 -
[42]
I wouldn't count on that as with those javelin torps you can pretty much own all ships (inties to BS) at zero range right up to 220km, I've seen a siletto get one volied orbiting at 2kms, don't know any other wepeon system in EVE that fits on a BS that can hit at 200km be able to do this.
President
Huzzah Federation
Play EVE on the hard setting, join us. |
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