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Electrified Circuits
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
17
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Posted - 2014.07.16 20:14:00 -
[1] - Quote
Forgive me if that hasn't been asked already i couldn't find anything on the forums other than Taus reply that the new crius baste waste is:
=BaseMaterial*(1-ME BP %)/0.9
When i put this into my spreadsheet am i supposed to round/rounddown or up?
The results im getting are different for what is showing on this website:
http://bp.kiwi.frubar.net/calc/ when i enter Nidhogger for crius model at 9% ME
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Kyoso Shintaro
THI Command
0
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:03:00 -
[2] - Quote
It's always round up which screw's over caps unless you have me10%. This has been brought up to CCP as an issue in several threads and they just ignore it |
Electrified Circuits
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
17
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Wow thats a big blow to myself, I'm an entry level cap builder as ive only played the game for a year i bought all the BPOs from NPCs and researched them to about 2/1
The components were easy to max out for the 10/10 switch over.
Making money isn't a problem but it looks like people like myself are completely blanked out of the cap scene if we are meant to take such a huge profit loss. Or I could be wrong and thinking most cap builders didnt bother to get 10 anyway so we are all in the same boat. That i am happier with
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Satyr Ersatz
New Eden Security Services New Eden Conglomerate
7
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:28:00 -
[4] - Quote
Isn't waste going away in Crius (CCP has identified it as "bad complexity")? |
Electrified Circuits
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
17
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
No waste is still an integral part of construction.
They just removed the complex formula and put in a simple one (which has caused some issues with extreme cases like cap building)
They put extra materials into the main cost and ME research on Blueprints is now what determines your effeciency, with the removal of production efficiency skill.
Other factors like building at a pos or nullsec station can affect ME. If im right in thinking an ME 9 Archon will behave like a perfect when used at a nullsec station with the material modifier, which does shed some light on the situation |
Kyoso Shintaro
THI Command
0
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Satyr Ersatz wrote:Isn't waste going away in Crius (CCP has identified it as "bad complexity")?
Waste is going away, sorta. It's being rolled into base materials and everything takes away from there.
OP I feel your pain. I have cap BPO that were perfect at level 7 that will now be only 40% of perfect. I'm hoping CCP fixes this issue at some point, but it's not looking likely before the 22nd |
Electrified Circuits
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
17
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Posted - 2014.07.16 21:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
I checked some numbers again if you are running the BPO at an amarr station that has a 2% material reduction (sounds like a little amount doesnt it) but the BPO at me 8 is near perfect in returns. This will only take 6weeks to research at a pos and even less if you have better facilities, so not all doom and gloom you just need access to good facilities |
Kyoso Shintaro
THI Command
0
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:04:00 -
[8] - Quote
Electrified Circuits wrote:I checked some numbers again if you are running the BPO at an amarr station that has a 2% material reduction (sounds like a little amount doesnt it) but the BPO at me 8 is near perfect in returns. This will only take 6weeks to research at a pos and even less if you have better facilities, so not all doom and gloom you just need access to good facilities This requires you to have access to an amarr station with the upgrades while all your components will most likely be cooking in a POS in low sec. Getting access to an upgraded amarr station is not easy |
Electrified Circuits
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
17
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yeah guess im lucky we live on a max lvl amarr which is 5% reduction time to move to nullsec i guess lol. I'll be importing my ore compressed if thats the case will just need to train my alts to be able to fly the caps out to lowsec |
Kyoso Shintaro
THI Command
0
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
Electrified Circuits wrote:Yeah guess im lucky we live on a max lvl amarr which is 5% reduction time to move to nullsec i guess lol. I'll be importing my ore compressed if thats the case will just need to train my alts to be able to fly the caps out to lowsec
You'll still want to build your cap components out of a pos in low sec for the 10% reduction in materials. Moving the large components is not easy |
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Electrified Circuits
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
17
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Posted - 2014.07.16 22:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
good point, still it makes sense for me to produce components and finished product in nullsec if i can do it with a minimally researched cap bpo. The numbers balance out for both.
Ideal profit is only seen when you are making at max researched capital in low sec but that could take a long time to get to 10 |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
3879
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Posted - 2014.07.16 23:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
Electrified Circuits wrote: My formula is worth exactly what you paid for it
Looks like the base amounts are different:
Capital Propulsion Engine: 10 GåÆ 10 Capital Sensor Cluster: 6 GåÆ 6 Capital Armor Plates: 6 GåÆ 7 Capital Capacitor Battery: 4 GåÆ 3 Capital Power Generator: 8 GåÆ 9 Capital Shield Emitter: 8 GåÆ 9 Capital Jump Drive: 10 GåÆ 10 Capital Drone Bay: 45 GåÆ 48 Capital Computer System: 6 GåÆ 7 Capital Construction Parts: 4 GåÆ 3 Capital Ship Maintenance Bay: 10 GåÆ 10 Capital Corporate Hangar Bay : 10 GåÆ 10
The web calculator is also suspect, as ME 0% has no waste on several components. |
Electrified Circuits
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
17
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Posted - 2014.07.16 23:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thx for clearing that up Tau i'm suspect of the website too as it doesnt show any workings out so i'm using the formula you wrote with the material modifier for making in station with great results. |
Qoi
Exert Force
16
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Posted - 2014.07.19 00:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
Electrified Circuits wrote:Forgive me if that hasn't been asked already i couldn't find anything on the forums other than Taus reply that the new crius base waste is: =BaseMaterial*(1-ME BP %)/0.9 When i put this into my spreadsheet am i supposed to round/rounddown or up? The results im getting are different for what is showing on this website: http://bp.kiwi.frubar.net/calc/ when i enter Nidhogger for crius model at 9% ME
I just checked the values from my website against the current SiSi build (for ME -0%, ME -9% and ME -10%), they agree 100%. Whoever gave you that formula doesn't really understand the industry changes. You can't just plug the material modifier in there before rounding, the base material requirements are stored as integers in blueprints.yaml |
Hakan MacTrew
MUTED VOID Takahashi Alliance
844
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Posted - 2014.07.19 00:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:Wastage as a concept is gone. All material-affecting bonuses simply reduce from the "full price" input materials. Material needs for T1 items have all been adjusted upwards by 1/0.9 to balance this out. We no longer need to guard so vigilantly against "material printing" from ME bonuses as reprocessing-built items now only return 50% of the materials.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-industry-all-you-want-to-know/
And you will not require an Amarr outpost optimized for manufacturing to get a 2% material reduction, you could just use a POS. http://meme-generator.me/media/created/d3r3t8.jpg |
Qoi
Exert Force
16
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Posted - 2014.07.19 01:16:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:Quote:Wastage as a concept is gone. All material-affecting bonuses simply reduce from the "full price" input materials. Material needs for T1 items have all been adjusted upwards by 1/0.9 to balance this out. We no longer need to guard so vigilantly against "material printing" from ME bonuses as reprocessing-built items now only return 50% of the materials. http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/eve-industry-all-you-want-to-know/And you will not require an Amarr outpost optimized for manufacturing to get a 2% material reduction, you could just use a POS. If your Blueprints are not at ME 10, you are (generally) required to use more materials. You can call this waste, you can also call it "full price". The concept is pretty much the same, just the maths is different.
Also an Amarr Outpost can get more than 2% reduction. The Thukker Component Assembly is still where all the fun is though. |
Electrified Circuits
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
17
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Posted - 2014.07.19 02:15:00 -
[17] - Quote
Ok Q thanks for the info and i get what your saying but i do believe an amarr upgrade will lower costs even if bpo is me 9% as it applies to the whole ship not just the components you build. When i factored in both of these it was pretty much same build cost for building everything at nullsec station compared to thukker and low sec constructions. Im going to have a play on sisi anyway now its finally back up |
Qoi
Exert Force
16
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Posted - 2014.07.19 09:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
Electrified Circuits wrote:Ok Q thanks for the info and i get what your saying but i do believe an amarr upgrade will lower costs even if bpo is me 9% as it applies to the whole ship not just the components you build. When i factored in both of these it was pretty much same build cost for building everything at nullsec station compared to thukker and low sec constructions. Im going to have a play on sisi anyway now its finally back up
For Ships like the Nidhoggur at ME -9%, you only need 1% Material Reduction from the Facility to get the Capital Propulsion Engine, Capital Jump Drive, Capital Ship Maintenance Bay and Capital Corporate Hangar Bay from 11 to 10 required for a single run, so it should not really matter if you build it in at an upgraded Amarr outpost (1% to 3% material reduction) or at a POS (2% material reduction).
The Thukker Component Assembly array will give people a definitive advantage though, those 10% in material reduction apply fully since the quantities involved are fairly high. Build costs at low sec POS will definitely be lower and potential profits higher than in null sec. |
Electrified Circuits
Fault Line Industries Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
17
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Posted - 2014.07.19 13:00:00 -
[19] - Quote
Yes after trying things on the sisi server, there seems no reason to construct capitals in nullsec (for profit at least) They will be continued to be made in lowsec for the most part even with a max upgraded amarr station which is very costly the profits are much better with thukker and pos array |
Qoi
Exert Force
16
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Posted - 2014.07.19 16:23:00 -
[20] - Quote
I can confirm now that the manufacturing required materials modifier of the facility and the blueprint stack multiplicatively, just as i assumed yesterday. Keep that in mind for your calculations :) |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
764
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Posted - 2014.07.19 17:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Qoi wrote:required = MAX(Number of Runs, CEIL( baseAmount * Number of Runs * MaterialModifier))
Confirming this is the correct formula with MaterialModifier = 1 - (ME / 100)
Any additional modifiers due to teams / facility bonuses / whatever would be multiplied by the base amount and runs BEFORE doing a CEIL to round it out to an integer. This is a significant difference from the previous industry system, where more runs may decrease your required materials per run by a noticeable amount.
The new UI will show you all of this information live by scrolling the runs up and down, or switching between facilities / teams etc.
Or you can calculate it all yourself with a spreadsheet of course CCP Nullarbor //-áExotic Dancer-á// DEVGIFS |
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3542
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Posted - 2014.07.19 18:16:00 -
[22] - Quote
Just to go over this:
There is no addition to the materials that CCP have released in the SDE (if you want them in a spreadsheet, you can grab one from the SDE directory on my site) Everything is subtractive (well, other than rapid assembly arrays.)
If you have a -5% facility, it's still worth researching to ME -10 (well, depending on the way the materials break down.) as this will lead to -14.5% materials ( 0.9 multiplier, and a 0.95 multiplier)
It's also worth knowing that rounding (it rounds up. so 1.1 becomes 2) happens at the job level, not the run level. So if you have something which uses 1.1 things, a job with a single run would use 2. a job with 10 runs would use 11.
(bah. slow to get this out, due to waiting for getting sisi updated, to confirm it.) Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices Masters of Flying Objects
757
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Posted - 2014.07.19 18:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Just to go over this:
There is no addition to the materials that CCP have released in the SDE (if you want them in a spreadsheet, you can grab one from the SDE directory on my site) Everything is subtractive (well, other than rapid assembly arrays.)
If you have a -5% facility, it's still worth researching to ME -10 (well, depending on the way the materials break down.) as this will lead to -14.5% materials ( 0.9 multiplier, and a 0.95 multiplier)
It's also worth knowing that rounding (it rounds up. so 1.1 becomes 2) happens at the job level, not the run level. So if you have something which uses 1.1 things, a job with a single run would use 2. a job with 10 runs would use 11.
(bah. slow to get this out, due to waiting for getting sisi updated, to confirm it.) Hit up the Singularity channel if you got stuff the rest of us can help test. If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide
See you around the universe. |
Knowledgeminer
Oriens Vis
14
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Posted - 2014.07.26 08:55:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Qoi wrote:required = MAX(Number of Runs, CEIL( baseAmount * Number of Runs * MaterialModifier)) Confirming this is the correct formula with MaterialModifier = 1 - (ME / 100)
According to that formula, producing 60 Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I with an ME 10 blueprint should require:
5616 Broken Drone Transceiver 6156 Burned Logic Circuit 6318 Tripped Power Circuit
right?
However, thatGÇÖs not what I get. What I get is:
5617 Broken Drone Transceiver 6157 Burned Logic Circuit 6318 Tripped Power Circuit
IGÇÖve observed similar discrepancies happen with other BPs as well. Is there an explanation for this? Is it a floating point precision issue or what?
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Qoi
Exert Force
45
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Posted - 2014.07.26 09:31:00 -
[25] - Quote
Knowledgeminer wrote:CCP Nullarbor wrote:Qoi wrote:required = MAX(Number of Runs, CEIL( baseAmount * Number of Runs * MaterialModifier)) Confirming this is the correct formula with MaterialModifier = 1 - (ME / 100) According to that formula, producing 60 Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I with an ME 10 blueprint should require: 5616 Broken Drone Transceiver 6156 Burned Logic Circuit 6318 Tripped Power Circuit right? However, thatGÇÖs not what I get. What I get is: 5617 Broken Drone Transceiver 6157 Burned Logic Circuit 6318 Tripped Power Circuit IGÇÖve observed similar discrepancies happen with other BPs as well. Is there an explanation for this? Is it a floating point precision issue or what? Your maths is correct. I see the same numbers and i cannot explain the discrepancy. Sounds like i will have to amend my pre-crius CCP_ROUND illustration https://c.1tau.de/public.php?service=files&t=766a35c75275b1b14a7899bcd69e50b6
Unfortunately i have no ME 10 Large Sentry Damage Augmentor I blueprints, can someone confirm this? :/ |
Qoi
Exert Force
45
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Posted - 2014.07.26 09:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
It DEFINITELY looks like a floating point error, since CCP is rounding 5616.0 and 6156.0 to 5617 and 6157, but 6318.0 to 6318.
Did i mention that i hate floating point arithmetics |
Qoi
Exert Force
45
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Posted - 2014.07.26 10:13:00 -
[27] - Quote
I was just playing around with python
Quote: >>> math.ceil(104*0.9*60) 5617.0 >>> math.ceil(104*60*0.9) 5616.0 >>> math.ceil(114*0.9*60) 6157.0 >>> math.ceil(114*60*0.9) 6156.0 >>> math.ceil(117*0.9*60) 6318.0 >>> math.ceil(117*60*0.9) 6318.0
Hey CCP, how about changing the order of multiplication.. :D |
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CCP Nullarbor
C C P C C P Alliance
800
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Posted - 2014.07.27 13:31:00 -
[28] - Quote
Qoi wrote:I was just playing around with python Quote: >>> math.ceil(104*0.9*60) 5617.0 >>> math.ceil(104*60*0.9) 5616.0 >>> math.ceil(114*0.9*60) 6157.0 >>> math.ceil(114*60*0.9) 6156.0 >>> math.ceil(117*0.9*60) 6318.0 >>> math.ceil(117*60*0.9) 6318.0
Hey CCP, how about changing the order of multiplication.. :D
Yay floating point math
I will have a look at throwing in a round( quantity, 2 ) before doing the ceil, just so we can all keep our sanity. CCP Nullarbor //-áExotic Dancer-á// DEVGIFS |
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Qoi
Exert Force
48
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Posted - 2014.07.27 23:55:00 -
[29] - Quote
CCP Nullarbor wrote:Qoi wrote:I was just playing around with python Quote: >>> math.ceil(104*0.9*60) 5617.0 >>> math.ceil(104*60*0.9) 5616.0 >>> math.ceil(114*0.9*60) 6157.0 >>> math.ceil(114*60*0.9) 6156.0 >>> math.ceil(117*0.9*60) 6318.0 >>> math.ceil(117*60*0.9) 6318.0
Hey CCP, how about changing the order of multiplication.. :D Yay floating point math I will have a look at throwing in a round( quantity, 2 ) before doing the ceil, just so we can all keep our sanity. You sir are worth your volume in Compressed Hedbergite. |
Kniht
Perkone Caldari State
56
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Posted - 2014.07.29 14:02:00 -
[30] - Quote
Qoi wrote:You sir are worth your volume in Compressed Hedbergite. Either that's a comment on someone's size relative to the (space-bloated) bodies in New Eden, or a significant under-valuation of the headaches of floating-point math.
2m3 / 0.14m3 * 65,340 ISK = 933,428 ISK
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