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A New Approach To EW?

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Wild Rho	Posted - 2006.07.03 07:40:00 - [1] Right now EW is a bit of an all or nothing affair. If you successfully jam a target it's more or less useless until it gets a lucky break. In ye good ole days this was fairly balanced as it required X number of jamming points to successfully jam a target meaning a ship had to sacrifice it's tanking ability to be an effective jammer. These days a ship can use just one ecm to potentially keep a target jammed and still run a tank. So... I started thinking about a new approach that could be taken with it and came up with this idea. When an ECM is used against a target there is a % chance of the ECM shutting down a module in one of the targets slots (for the duration of the cycle). Before you start screaming I don't mean it off-lines the module. It merely disables it (active modules can't be...errr activated and passive modules don't give their bonus for the duration). To give a little more control ECMs can be broken into 3 groups (ignoring tech levels). Standard ECM... High ECMs - Attempts to disable high slot modules for the cycle duration. Mid ECMs - Attempts to disable mid slot modules for the cycle duration. Low ECMs - Attempts to disabled low slot modules for the cycle duration. The ECM mods themselves are still fitted in the mid slots but now an EW user has a chance to interfere with a target ships operations in combat. A casual ECM user can make life difficult for a target but a dedicated ECM user could potentially disabled all sorts of different aspects of a ship (from weapons to the ships tank). It also means if a ship is being jammed it doesn't suddenly become totally useless, it can still target and engage the enemy, it just may not be as effective as normal. *For tech 2 mods you could change it so the ecm can be cycled twice in the time it takes for the targets modules to recover, essentially doubling your potential attacks (just a random thought as I type this). The idea can also be taken one step further. Focused ECM... These modules are similar to the ones above except when successful they off-line the targets modules instead. The chance of success is ALOT lower but the potential for causing havoc on the target is significant. ECM Burst... Becuase the above ECMs can potentially disable the weapons of a turret or missile based ship there also needs to be some effective means to counter drones as well. So the ECM burst could be made useful by... - Increase it's effective range to 8kms. - When activated it acts like an EW smartbomb that when it hits nearby drones (note: friendly or hostile) there is a % chance they will go inactive for a certain amount of time). - The ECM bursts fitting requirements only make it feasible on cruisers and larger ships. - The ECM burst does not effect any nearby ships in range as it is too weak to affect their systems. Anywho that's the general idea. Any thoughts are welcome, flames will just be ignored WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Boonaki	Posted - 2006.07.03 07:43:00 - [2] Like the ideas, but dislike the thought of offlined mods. Better to just have it disable the slot for the duration. Fear the Ibis of doom!
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.07.03 07:44:00 - [3] Edited by: HippoKing on 03/07/2006 07:44:22 Originally by: Boonaki Like the ideas, but dislike the thought of offlined mods. Better to just have it disable the slot for the duration. reading 4tw edit: just for clarification Originally by: Wild Rho When an ECM is used against a target there is a % chance of the ECM shutting down a module in one of the targets slots (for the duration of the cycle). Before you start screaming I don't mean it off-lines the module. It merely disables it (active modules can't be...errr activated and passive modules don't give their bonus for the duration)..
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.07.03 08:02:00 - [4] see the long ECM sticky ? do read. your idea is nothing new in the discussion. 1. not fair on frigates, they have less slots an less sensor strength 2. an ECM ship cannot use it's mids to tank/disable multiple enemies 3. any ship will fit one midslot jammer to disable enemy EW or jump scramblers what about actual working of the modules with an example ? how many slots does one ecm module jam ? how is the jamming success calculated ? etc. ------------------------------ if you want peace, prepare for war ... ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well
Wild Rho	Posted - 2006.07.03 11:07:00 - [5] Edited by: Wild Rho on 03/07/2006 11:08:25 Originally by: Hugh Ruka see the long ECM sticky ? do read. your idea is nothing new in the discussion. That threads 28 pages long and I'm not going to sit and read through it all on the off chance somone else had the same idea as I did. Sorry if that bothers you. Originally by: Hugh Ruka 1. not fair on frigates, they have less slots an less sensor strength ECM has always been more effective versus smaller ships over larger ones, and even then it would take multiple ecms to properly disable a frigates modules where as currently it only takes 1 ecm to make a frigate completely ineffective. Originally by: Hugh Ruka 2. an ECM ship cannot use it's mids to tank/disable multiple enemies One ship should not be able to disabled a whole group of ships which is what the current system makes possible. With this system it can still disable or at least hinder another ship effectivly by crippling it's damage output or it's tank. And EW boats have never been able to tank multiple enemies in the first place. That's the big trade off between EW and tanking. Originally by: Hugh Ruka 3. any ship will fit one midslot jammer to disable enemy EW or jump scramblers You're assuming the player using the ECM can choose what modules to disable, they can't. When an ECM is successful it would randomly disable a module. They may get lucky and knock out a tacklers warp scram/disruptor, then again they may not. At the moment a single ship with multiple ECMs already achieves the effect you just stated, can't warp scram/jam a target if you're being target jammed yourself. Originally by: Hugh Ruka what about actual working of the modules with an example ? how many slots does one ecm module jam ? how is the jamming success calculated ? etc. Ok here's a basic idea. Battleship A is running with a High ECM. Battleship B is running a standard tanked combat fitting. Ship A uses 1 high ECM on Ship B. A battle calculation occurs based on the skills of each player, the jamming strength of the ECM and the sensor strength (+ ECCM) of Ship B. If the attack fails nothing happens and Ship A must wait for the module to finish cycling before trying again. If the attack succeeds a random module within a high slot (note the attack only effects slots with modules installed) is disabled for X amount of time. The module is NOT offlined, it simply does not activate or give a bonus for the duration of X. Once duration X is over the module is fully functional again. The same occurs on the mid and low slots when Ship A uses a Mid or Low ECM as well. *The basic calculation between the ECM and the target could probably stay pretty much the same with only minor adjustments needed, only the response to the calculations result would be changed. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.07.03 11:42:00 - [6] Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 03/07/2006 11:42:23 Originally by: Wild Rho ... no offence meant with mentioning the sticky, my bet was you did not read it :-) Now to your example: non caldari ships have at most 3-4 mids usualy, thus a midslot jammer becomes a utility jammer. high chance to jam just the one slot you need. worst case scenario are amarr ships. just for your example, tier 2 battleships have 6+ primary weapon mounts, a scorpion has 8 mids and usualy 6 jammers fited. we are talking of a dedicated ECM ship here. basicaly tracking disruptors will become the primary form of EW after your change. if the ECM jammers jam 1 to 1 module, I do not see any reason to use ECM. you just nerfed an entire ship role. why should one ship not disable a whole group ? it is designed to do so afterall (scorpion, rook, blackbird). and they jam instead of tanking. I do that frequently when NPCing in a Scorp, it is highly effective in certain conditions. the usualy mentioned fleet battles are also a consideration. a ship that can use at least one of it's long range guns to shoot the other fleet IS a fighting ship, does not matter you jammed the 5 remaining guns. However to give you credit, midslot jammers would get much attention since jamming the tracking comps and sensor boosters will make almost same effect as jamming the ship completely. but that's one scenarion only your idea is better. EDIT: and nobody would ever use the lowslot jammers. ------------------------------ if you want peace, prepare for war ... ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well
R31D	Posted - 2006.07.03 11:47:00 - [7] Edited by: R31D on 03/07/2006 11:52:16 Edited by: R31D on 03/07/2006 11:48:40 Originally by: HippoKing Edited by: HippoKing on 03/07/2006 07:44:22 Originally by: Boonaki Like the ideas, but dislike the thought of offlined mods. Better to just have it disable the slot for the duration. reading 4tw edit: just for clarification Originally by: Wild Rho When an ECM is used against a target there is a % chance of the ECM shutting down a module in one of the targets slots (for the duration of the cycle). Before you start screaming I don't mean it off-lines the module. It merely disables it (active modules can't be...errr activated and passive modules don't give their bonus for the duration).. reading 4tw? Originally by: Wild Rho The idea can also be taken one step further. Focused ECM... These modules are similar to the ones above except when successful they off-line the targets modules instead. The chance of success is ALOT lower but the potential for causing havoc on the target is significant. I believe I just pwned you Hippo Anyways, my personal thoughts on the issue is that it's a good idea but would need to have a chance to offline more than one slot for it to be effective and worth fitting (maybe ECM-specific ships get a bonus to number of possible slots jammed). Without that losing one midslot of yours to only possibly affect one of an opponent's highslot/midslot/lowslot seems like a waste of a slot (especially compared to tracking disruptors/sensor damps). You'd need at least 2-3 ECM ships to effectively shut down one enemy ship in this scenario (In fact, doesn't sound so bad now ) Free bumpage for all
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.07.03 11:49:00 - [8]
Wild Rho	Posted - 2006.07.03 12:04:00 - [9] Edited by: Wild Rho on 03/07/2006 12:09:30 Originally by: Hugh Ruka non caldari ships have at most 3-4 mids usualy, thus a midslot jammer becomes a utility jammer. high chance to jam just the one slot you need. worst case scenario are amarr ships. just for your example, tier 2 battleships have 6+ primary weapon mounts, a scorpion has 8 mids and usualy 6 jammers fited. we are talking of a dedicated ECM ship here. basicaly tracking disruptors will become the primary form of EW after your change. if the ECM jammers jam 1 to 1 module, I do not see any reason to use ECM. you just nerfed an entire ship role. I don't see why the ratio between jammer to module couldn't be shifted to make it more favourable (long disable duration over faster ECM cycle time) as a balance. At the time of writing this I'll admit I wasn't thinking in terms of a single ship jamming an entire group but rather a number of ships with a few ECM's knocking out some hostiles offensive/defensive abilities, making them weaker and easier to kill. Originally by: Hugh Ruka why should one ship not disable a whole group ? it is designed to do so afterall (scorpion, rook, blackbird). and they jam instead of tanking. I do that frequently when NPCing in a Scorp, it is highly effective in certain conditions. The fact that ECMs are getting "rebalanced" shows that the current situation makes ECM overpowered. The older system worked well through the use of "cycle jamming", the current system is good in that it makes other ships other than scorps and BBs etc capable of EW but it goes too far in that single ship can turn a group of targets into flying coffins without alot of effort. Originally by: Hugh Ruka the usualy mentioned fleet battles are also a consideration. a ship that can use at least one of it's long range guns to shoot the other fleet IS a fighting ship, does not matter you jammed the 5 remaining guns. EW has always taken second place in fleet battles simply due to the trouble trying to co-ordinate it all along with target calling. Also there is no iron rule saying that you would have to equip the high ECM for every situation in any case. A simple example in a fleet battle would be one group runs a number of Mid ECMs combined with sensor dampeners. The ECM gives them a decent chance of taking out the enemy sensor boosters, combined with dampeners they could render a number of ships incapable of functioning at long range. Originally by: Hugh Ruka However to give you credit, midslot jammers would get much attention since jamming the tracking comps and sensor boosters will make almost same effect as jamming the ship completely. but that's one scenarion only your idea is better. I was going to point out, most of your arguements are focusing on the use of High ECMs, there would be some situations where using High would be better (i.e. against HACs) and other situations where using Mid or Low ECMs would be more effective. The oppertunities for being able to interfere with a targets...well setup when you get right down to it are significant. Originally by: Hugh Ruka EDIT: and nobody would ever use the lowslot jammers. Are you so sure? Imagine having a couple of frigates loaded with Low ECMs. They have the potential to shut down a targets warp core stabs if they are loaded with them. How about during smaller engagements having the ability to possibly shutdown a well tanked targets armour rep or resistance plating. Heck you could even knock out their cap recharge rate. Again the oppertunities to disable the effectivness of a ship does not simply come down to how many guns you can take out. I should also add there is also the potential for mixing these ECM mods with other EW mods to produce unexpected results and combinations. Edited: Hunting for typo goblins WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.07.03 12:44:00 - [10] Originally by: Wild Rho The fact that ECMs are getting "rebalanced" shows that the current situation makes ECM overpowered. The older system worked well through the use of "cycle jamming", the current system is good in that it makes other ships other than scorps and BBs etc capable of EW but it goes too far in that single ship can turn a group of targets into flying coffins without alot of effort. the only problem in the current system is that the counter to ECM is not working (or not good enough). Originally by: Wild Rho EW has always taken second place in fleet battles simply due to the trouble trying to co-ordinate it all along with target calling. Also there is no iron rule saying that you would have to equip the high ECM for every situation in any case. A simple example in a fleet battle would be one group runs a number of Mid ECMs combined with sensor dampeners. The ECM gives them a decent chance of taking out the enemy sensor boosters, combined with dampeners they could render a number of ships incapable of functioning at long range. Fleet coordination is an out of game problem. has nothing to do with actual game mechanics. Originally by: Wild Rho I was going to point out, most of your arguements are focusing on the use of High ECMs, there would be some situations where using High would be better (i.e. against HACs) and other situations where using Mid or Low ECMs would be more effective. The oppertunities for being able to interfere with a targets...well setup when you get right down to it are significant. high slots are the most crucial ones in a battle usualy. mids and lows do not matter. you web and warp scramble to take care of enemy mobility, thus no need for mid slot ecms. again you damage and nos the oponent to take care of his cap/tank, no need for low/mid ecms again. but he cannot do anything without high slots. only exception are EW ships themselves. it is easier and better to kill/nos/neut a tackler than to jam his mids etc. while your concept is nice to read, it requires too many slots to be worth using, and for most scenarios there already exist more efficient means. as to the example of the frigs, it is easier for them to jam highs and kill drones than to kill the bs tank with jammers. once your enemy can do you no harm, and is not going anywhere, you have him dead, only takes time, no matter how much tank he has left. again lowslot moules are not that usefull to bother disabling. ------------------------------ if you want peace, prepare for war ... ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well
Nifel	Posted - 2006.07.03 12:49:00 - [11] This very idea was indeed posted in the EW thread ;). Anyway... I was thinking about this a bit more after I posted it and I'd really like to see how a smaller ECM cycle would affect this. "When I die I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandpa. Not yelling and screaming like the passengers in his car." RKK Ranking: (MIN14)
James Lyrus	Posted - 2006.07.03 14:13:00 - [12] IMO ECMs are still pretty hit and miss. Your dedicated ECM Rook or Scorp still has a fairly hard time of it, with 6-7 jammers and a power bonus. Single ECMs are fairly handy, but I tend to find that they're not generally worth fitting over, say, a shield tank. Ok, situation is slightly different on armour tanks, but even there, tracking comps/webs/scramblers tend to be more use. shrug I don't see a huge problem, especially now ECCMs and sensor backups have been boosted. -- We are recruiting
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.07.03 14:29:00 - [13] Edited by: welsh wizard on 03/07/2006 14:32:03 Some pretty good ideas here Rho. With some work and a bit more thought I think you could be on to a winner. Maybe multispectral modules that use lots more cap but disable 1 high, 1 mid and 1 low? Hugh, criticism is always a good thing with regards to new ideas but it seems to me you are just blindly disagreeing with everything he says for the sake of it. Anyway ECCM actually seems to be working pretty well now. The moderate change to the % chance of a successful jam will make a bigger difference than you think. I think we'll definitely notice a downturn in the power of the ECM module. It just takes time and multiple engagements to really notice the difference.
Hugh Ruka	Posted - 2006.07.03 14:34:00 - [14] Originally by: welsh wizard Some pretty good ideas here Rho. With some work and a bit more thought I think you could be on to a winner. Maybe multispectral modules that use lots more cap but disable 1 high, 1 mid and 1 low? Hugh, criticism is always a good thing with regards to new ideas but you are just blindly disagreeing with everything he says for the sake of it. Anyway ECCM actually seems to be working pretty well now. I haven't been jammed in a BS since the changes and we're fighting pretty much whenever we're online. sorry if my post sound like that, is not meant to. I just want to get him plug the holes and then see what comes out. I also do consider his arguments (like the fleet battle idea with midslot jammers is nice I admit). I follow the ECM sticky from the start and have to find an idea that is better then the current system yet. there were some nice ones, but all crippled in some way. ------------------------------ if you want peace, prepare for war ... ------------------------------ Removed due to offensive content - Laqum I realy liked my signature. Oh well
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.07.03 14:38:00 - [15] Originally by: Hugh Ruka I follow the ECM sticky from the start and have to find an idea that is better then the current system yet. there were some nice ones, but all crippled in some way. Aye, the battle goes on.. Although I quite like the way its working atm tbh. Then again We perhaps haven't had enough experience with the new ECCM to make any kind of judgement yet.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2006.07.03 14:39:00 - [16] Edited by: Wild Rho on 03/07/2006 14:39:19 Originally by: Hugh Ruka the only problem in the current system is that the counter to ECM is not working (or not good enough). Unlikely considering there have been discussion on things such as possible "cool down" periods for ECM mods and similar. Yes ECCM did need a boost granted but just becuase that's been addressed doesn't mean the current system is perfect. The change I've posted aboves isn't an "OHMYGODCHANGETHISNOWCCP" post, it was just an idea to make EW a little more interesting. Originally by: Hugh Ruka Fleet co-ordination is an out of game problem. has nothing to do with actual game mechanics. That doesn't make my point about it taking second place in a fleet battle any less valid. Originally by: Hugh Ruka high slots are the most crucial ones in a battle usualy. mids and lows do not matter. you web and warp scramble to take care of enemy mobility, thus no need for mid slot ecms. again you damage and nos the oponent to take care of his cap/tank, no need for low/mid ecms again. but he cannot do anything without high slots. only exception are EW ships themselves. it is easier and better to kill/nos/neut a tackler than to jam his mids etc. EVERY slot matters in a battle, not just what you have in your high slots. Warp scrams are all fine and well but often frigates are the only ships fast enough to catch targets. Frigates also tend to lack sufficient mid slots to pin down battleships that load their low slots with warp core stablisiers. The Low ECM provides the oppertunity for other slower ships to help tackling by attempting knock out any possible warp core stablisier modules the target has fitted. It's not a guarrantee it will work but it improves the tacklers odds. - Thats just one example. Nossing a target is only effective if you are a battleship yourself (not always the case, especially in fast moving packs). Granted the recon cruisers are also effective but they are a special case. Having the chance to knock out vital modules used by a tanking ship to help bring it down quicker is another oppertunity this type of ECM would present. Originally by: Hugh Ruka while your concept is nice to read, it requires too many slots to be worth using, and for most scenarios there already exist more efficient means. Thanks, that's why I posted the idea. Sometimes you have a thought in your head and you tend not to come up with the problems in it, you need somone else to help point out the flaws in it. I just figured that a system like this helps bring into play the possibilities for sub system damage that were discussed a while ago (by sub system I assumed modules but they may have had somthing else in mind). Originally by: Hugh Ruka as to the example of the frigs, it is easier for them to jam highs and kill drones than to kill the bs tank with jammers. once your enemy can do you no harm, and is not going anywhere, you have him dead, only takes time, no matter how much tank he has left. again lowslot moules are not that usefull to bother disabling. That's my problem with the current situation to be honest. In small engagements EW (ECM especially) = win when used right, in larger battles its generally useless over having more firepower. Anywho it's just an idea and thanks for making my day at work a little more interesting EDIT: Opps, more posts while I was typing this. Cheers for the replies though. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Wat0721	Posted - 2006.07.03 16:33:00 - [17] Just wanted to throw this one out... What if ECM was reworked to fit in any power slot and had its strength determined by the ship's "slot strength" or something? Maybe all of the racial sensor strengths that each ship has could be boosted and meant to mean something, i.e. "This ship's high-slot ECM strength is 2(RADAR Strength); med-slot ECM strength is 3(LADAR Strength)" or some such? Does it make sense for all ships' sensors to be technically classifiable as weak forms of other systems in addition to their own? Just an idea. One more, what if each successful ECM disabled (for the cycle duration) all mods in the same slot it occupied? E.g. an ECM ship that gives up a high-slot to fit an ECM mod can disable all of an opponent's high slots, but had to give up offensive capability. Agh, I can't put coherent thoughts together right now.
Crewman Jenkins	Posted - 2006.07.03 19:09:00 - [18] Edited by: Crewman Jenkins on 03/07/2006 19:12:02 Since sensors and the action of jamming have to do with radar waves or somesuch being overwhelmed with "noise", I dont like the idea of jamming specific modules unless you have a targeting array for each module. Who wants to target the same guy 9 times? I think a way to keep it similar to how it is now, but still harder to jam would be the use of a channel(frequency) selection system. Each ship has a range of frequencies it can use to target, these frequencies would be ..perhaps on a 1 through 10 channel range. So Im flying through space in my battlecruiser and I have selected that I want to target on frequency/channel 2. My target has a jammer...now he can choose to do "spot jamming" by attemping to guess what channel I am using and then jam it, or he can choose "barrage jamming" and jam all frequencies at a much weaker effectiveness. Maybe there could be a way for my target to figure out what channel I am using by cycling through them with his jamming channel selector once he has targeted me. Maybe the player would see "targeting data" or something. Then perhaps you could go deeper and give me the ability to select passive or active targeting...passive would make it almost impossible to detect what channel I was using, but I would get a horrid resolution penalty. maybe depending on how many jammers a person has, they have a ECM power value, one jammer is equal to so many power points, another gives you 1.5 times that. So you can distribute these power points per channel if you want. theres all kinds of possibilities. now maybe instead of sensor strength boosters(60% to radar, ladar, etc) you could fit a secondary targeting array. This would allow one to target using two frequencies instead of just one. The module would have its own resolution value and range value, so to make it truely an independent targeting system. If you chose to use it on the same frequency as your main targeting array, you would get a boost in resolution and perhaps range. once on the correct frequency the jamming calculations would pretty much be the same. However, if you are jammed and have no backup..or both are jammed, you cannot target back for the entire 20 second period. What you can do is pick a new channel while jammed..then once the time is up..target back on a different frequency. This is a bit choppy, and Im sure there are holes in it...any thoughts? edit: some spelling
Wild Rho Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.31 07:52:00 - [19] Had another look at EW and came up with another idea. Some parts I KNOW are probably not gonna be popular or have problems with them. What those parts are will become obvious to some people pretty quickly but I'll mention them at the end. New Approach take 2... ECM... - Get rid of Multi-Spec ECM modules completly. - All racials only effect the appropriate races ships (non of this racial having a small chance to jam another races ships stuff). - ECM modules work 100% of the time but work as dampeners do currently (reducing lock range and increasing lock time). Reasoning: The fact that for the cost of one module slot you can more or less completly take an opponent out of the fight is a bit too much and the fact it's all chance based is not so great either. However Eve combat is not all tank and gank and that's what makes it great and an EW ships cannot tank nearly as well as a regular tanked ship. With racial ecms only it gives you a powerful tool to swing the tide of a fight, however it also requires some planning ahead of time to use given that each module is only effective against one race. Dampeners... - Dampeners reduce the sig radius of the ship they are fitted to when active. Reasoning: This turns the dampeners into defensive modules. They would be the missile equivalent of a tracking disruptor as well as a counter to target painters. Problems... There are some issues with the suggestions above and I'm open to ideas on what to do about it. - Producers of multi spec ecm I & II need somthing as their module would be basically removed from the game. - Dampeners in the suggested format may make the implant set (halo?) redundant in many respects. Anywho, as always suggestions are welcome, flames will just be ignored. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Hydrogen Art of War Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.07.31 09:06:00 - [20] Ahhh finally something new. Someone took the time and added to a neglected topic: ECM Well actually none posts about ECM and you got it right, that ECM is the solo pwnmobile which needs to be changed. So it was about time that you stepped up and added somethign well-thought-out, new and constructive to get this game right. Pointing exactly at the topic which needs to be addressed. I for myself enjoyed to learn from your vast experience. Also the idea to completly change ECM is of course a great idea. It should not affect target locks anymore but modules. Actually that is a smart thing to do: one module slot to disable another ships module, maybe also based on chance. All those griefers who used ECM and specced skills in it would be perfectly srewed. The right people like you will have a good laugh. Well, what would EvE be without people like you? thumbs up AF Guide
Kunming Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.31 10:35:00 - [21] Originally by: Wild Rho Had another look at EW and came up with another idea. Some parts I KNOW are probably not gonna be popular or have problems with them. What those parts are will become obvious to some people pretty quickly but I'll mention them at the end. New Approach take 2... ECM... - Get rid of Multi-Spec ECM modules completly. - All racials only effect the appropriate races ships (non of this racial having a small chance to jam another races ships stuff). - ECM modules work 100% of the time but work as dampeners do currently (reducing lock range and increasing lock time). Reasoning: The fact that for the cost of one module slot you can more or less completly take an opponent out of the fight is a bit too much and the fact it's all chance based is not so great either. However Eve combat is not all tank and gank and that's what makes it great and an EW ships cannot tank nearly as well as a regular tanked ship. With racial ecms only it gives you a powerful tool to swing the tide of a fight, however it also requires some planning ahead of time to use given that each module is only effective against one race. Dampeners... - Dampeners reduce the sig radius of the ship they are fitted to when active. Reasoning: This turns the dampeners into defensive modules. They would be the missile equivalent of a tracking disruptor as well as a counter to target painters. Problems... There are some issues with the suggestions above and I'm open to ideas on what to do about it. - Producers of multi spec ecm I & II need somthing as their module would be basically removed from the game. - Dampeners in the suggested format may make the implant set (halo?) redundant in many respects. Anywho, as always suggestions are welcome, flames will just be ignored. I like this idea alot. A solution to ECM, a counter to missiles AND a purpose for dampners and target painters.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.08.02 07:36:00 - [22] Yeah, I figured since turrets have the tracking disruptor missiles should have something similar. It also provides an alternative form of defence besides tanking WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.02 07:45:00 - [23] Originally by: Wild Rho Had another look at EW and came up with another idea. Some parts I KNOW are probably not gonna be popular or have problems with them. What those parts are will become obvious to some people pretty quickly but I'll mention them at the end. New Approach take 2... ECM... - Get rid of Multi-Spec ECM modules completly. - All racials only effect the appropriate races ships (non of this racial having a small chance to jam another races ships stuff). - ECM modules work 100% of the time but work as dampeners do currently (reducing lock range and increasing lock time). Reasoning: The fact that for the cost of one module slot you can more or less completly take an opponent out of the fight is a bit too much and the fact it's all chance based is not so great either. However Eve combat is not all tank and gank and that's what makes it great and an EW ships cannot tank nearly as well as a regular tanked ship. With racial ecms only it gives you a powerful tool to swing the tide of a fight, however it also requires some planning ahead of time to use given that each module is only effective against one race. Dampeners... - Dampeners reduce the sig radius of the ship they are fitted to when active. Reasoning: This turns the dampeners into defensive modules. They would be the missile equivalent of a tracking disruptor as well as a counter to target painters. Problems... There are some issues with the suggestions above and I'm open to ideas on what to do about it. - Producers of multi spec ecm I & II need somthing as their module would be basically removed from the game. - Dampeners in the suggested format may make the implant set (halo?) redundant in many respects. Anywho, as always suggestions are welcome, flames will just be ignored. rubbish. 1. you turned ECM into racial damps. 2. you obsoleted ECCM, since you can use sensor booster to counter ECM 3. the proposed damps will work on lock times increase, guns and missiles damage reduction, you just created the new must have modules on all class of ships. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.08.02 08:02:00 - [24] Any time you think of a "solution" to ECM, ask yourself if you'd ever fit ECM in your new system. Your idea makes ECM pretty pointless.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.08.02 08:16:00 - [25] Edited by: Wild Rho on 02/08/2006 08:19:04 Originally by: Hugh Ruka rubbish. 1. you turned ECM into racial damps. Yes that was the idea. Currently there is alot of debate on ECM being overpowered to the point that it was banned in the tournaments as well as the fact the devs are looking into ways of balancing it. However everyone seems pretty happy with dampeners overall and they are fairly well balanced. Making them racial may be taking it too far I admit, I just threw it in there for the sake of it. Another simple approach would be to have less effective generic damps and more effective racial damps. Originally by: Hugh Ruka 2. you obsoleted ECCM, since you can use sensor booster to counter ECM If ECCM was removed I doubt it would be missed too much. As it is it reduces your ability to tank or do damage purely to give you better odds on the off chance that somone tries to target jam you. Couple that with some of the newer ecm focused ships plus t2 ecm and so on making these modules even less effective and you can see why many people don't fit them. At least with sensor boosters vs damps the counter to the EW also has a viable use on a ship outside its function as a pure counter module. Also with the stacking penalty fixed on dampeners a ship running several can still be effective against a sensor boosted ship. Originally by: Hugh Ruka 3. the proposed damps will work on lock times increase, guns and missiles damage reduction, you just created the new must have modules on all class of ships. It's not a MUST have module but it does prove to be an effective defensive module. Don't forget that to fit these modules you need to sacrifice tanking ability and the reduceed sig radius created by these modules can be countered by target painters. All this does is add a bit more variety to defence rather just having a "tanking contest". Originally by: Risien Drogonne Any time you think of a "solution" to ECM, ask yourself if you'd ever fit ECM in your new system. Your idea makes ECM pretty pointless. Yes I would use the new modules as I've always been a fan of dampeners over ECM anyway and no it doesn't make it pointless, it just doesn't make it an I WIN button. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.08.02 08:18:00 - [26] Originally by: Wild Rho If ECCM was removed I doubt it would be missed too much. As it is it reduces your ability to tank or do damage purely to give you better odds on the off chance that somone tries to target jam you. See, that's exactly the problem with your idea. You don't want to sacrifice anything to counter ECM. ECM is SUPPOSED to inconvenience you, ya know.
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.08.02 08:21:00 - [27] Edited by: Wild Rho on 02/08/2006 08:24:31 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Wild Rho If ECCM was removed I doubt it would be missed too much. As it is it reduces your ability to tank or do damage purely to give you better odds on the off chance that somone tries to target jam you. See, that's exactly the problem with your idea. You don't want to sacrifice anything to counter ECM. ECM is SUPPOSED to inconvenience you, ya know. Yes it is but it's the only counter that cripples your ship on the off chance you will encouter a target jamming ship. Every other counter provides some additional benefit to your ship making it viable even when you don't need it as a counter. EDIT: Some basic examples... Tracking disruptors countered by tracking computers/ehancers that also will boost your tracking and optimal range anyway. Dampeners are countered by sensor boosters that will improve your range and lock time regardless. Even target painters can help counter to an extent given they make the target easier to hit. ECCM cripples your ability to tank, fit damage mods etc in exchange for having better odds of not being target jammed in a battle. The bonus doesn't even give you any real guarantee (or good odds against t2 racials on scorps etc) of not being target jammed but reduces your ability to defend in general anyway. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro
Risien Drogonne	Posted - 2006.08.02 08:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Wild Rho ECCM cripples your ability to tank, fit damage mods etc in exchange for having better odds of not being target jammed in a battle. The bonus doesn't even give you any real guarantee (or good odds against t2 racials on scorps etc) of not being target jammed but reduces your ability to defend in general anyway. Yah, cause you know... those warp stabs don't hurt an armor tank or anything...
Wild Rho Amarr Black Omega Security	Posted - 2006.08.02 08:28:00 - [29] Edited by: Wild Rho on 02/08/2006 08:29:14 Originally by: Risien Drogonne Originally by: Wild Rho ECCM cripples your ability to tank, fit damage mods etc in exchange for having better odds of not being target jammed in a battle. The bonus doesn't even give you any real guarantee (or good odds against t2 racials on scorps etc) of not being target jammed but reduces your ability to defend in general anyway. Yah, cause you know... those warp stabs don't hurt an armor tank or anything... Yes but they also give you the ability to warp out of a fight when you choose to reducing the need for a proper tank in any case. Couple that with tech 2 ship damage bonus, tech 2 gun damage bonus, tech 2 ammo damage bonus and soon warp core stabs aren't that crippling to a combat ships damage ouput. Oh and I also forgot all the damage boosting skills as well. Oh and for the record warp core stabs are getting changed so they actually have a negative impact on combat setups given they were intended to help traveling anyway, not be an easy escape module for combat ships. WE ARE DYSLEXIC OF BORG. Refutance is systile. Your ass will be laminated. - Jennie Marlboro

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