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HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.07.03 20:43:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Imperial Coercion
Originally by: Tsukiko Kuro
If everyone has T2, whats the point? Then its status que, we could simply have stayed with T1.
If everyone have t1 whats the point of civilian modules?
Do you see how flawed your logic is?
Do you know the meaning of the phrase "mudflation"?
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SengH
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Posted - 2006.07.03 20:43:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion
Originally by: Tsukiko Kuro
If everyone has T2, whats the point? Then its status que, we could simply have stayed with T1.
If everyone have t1 whats the point of civilian modules?
Do you see how flawed your logic is?
their for NPC BS rats to drop duh........
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.07.03 20:47:00 -
[33]
Originally by: HippoKing
Do you know the meaning of the phrase "mudflation"?
An increase in the size of mudflats?
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"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2006.07.03 20:50:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: HippoKing
Do you know the meaning of the phrase "mudflation"?
An increase in the size of mudflats?
Something like that 
It means inflation of power in MMOs (originally came from MUDs) which leads to previous items losing value. It generally refers to content introduced not because of a need for balance or to fill a new role or niche, but simply because of the "Woohoo, more stuff!" factor. Its what leads to tech6 deathstars for everyone in the long run.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.07.03 21:12:00 -
[35]
Originally by: HippoKing
It means inflation of power in MMOs (originally came from MUDs) which leads to previous items losing value. It generally refers to content introduced not because of a need for balance or to fill a new role or niche, but simply because of the "Woohoo, more stuff!" factor. Its what leads to tech6 deathstars for everyone in the long run.
I'm familiar with that concept, who isn't. Never heard it called that though.
As a general rule, by the time your elf warrior comes out of the training schools with a +9 Dragonscale Sword of Fire and Lightning ... it's time to close the MMO down. 
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"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Will Hunter
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Posted - 2006.07.03 21:24:00 -
[36]
Tech 1 has been the dominating force in pvp fleet battles for far too long, its time to move forward and if invention/reverse enginering does this - so much the better.
Tech 1 will always be used, but if the price of say a tech 2 cap rechargers to around 2mil you will find more longer battles due to the ability of ships able to maintain their cap longer. I would go one further to say the oldest tech2 items interceptors and rechargers bpo's should be seeded on the market so that competive markets can develop. Then continue the trend every 6 months after for the following items.
Alternatively you could say that tech2 is fine the way it is, as long as the tech 2 cartels can continue to rake in 400% profits on ships/items. End result is stale game play and newer tougher vessels continuing to be rare on the market at extreme prices. 
The arguement that tech 2 should be rare I believe was not started by pvpers but by tech2 producers who enjoy squeezing every last isk out of a limited supply orcastrated by themselves. I hope reverse engineering/invovation breaks these trends and allows the game to move onto better and more tougher ships/equipment, so that pvp takes on a direction it currently cannot due to excessive high profit margins. 
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Paper Airplane
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Posted - 2006.07.03 21:25:00 -
[37]
The only problem I have with t2 is that the isk is going back into the players hands. If t2 gear was only available off market from NPCs, but at the same prices I think it would be a great gold sink and really helpful to the economy.
I hope this is how CCP handles t3 gear.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2006.07.03 21:54:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Paper Airplane
The only problem I have with t2 is that the isk is going back into the players hands. If t2 gear was only available off market from NPCs, but at the same prices I think it would be a great gold sink and really helpful to the economy.
I hope this is how CCP handles t3 gear.
Given CCP's overriding vision of a game where the NPC market is effectively non-existent, and the only markets that count are those built and driven by the players ... I really don't see that happening.
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"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
lofty29
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Posted - 2006.07.03 21:55:00 -
[39]
The tech II market is only bad for those buying, tbh. I dont like it either, but I will pay the prices (unfortunatly). I remember the days I could buy a taranis w/ full fitting + ammo for a week for the price of just the ship now. Sigh
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I wanna be dev-jacked |
xeom
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Posted - 2006.07.03 22:16:00 -
[40]
I think were gana see t2 get its new prices from moon material cost.I think they should shoot up with merx.
Depending on how cheap the moon minerals are basicly should determine the value of the up coming t2 market.Hopefully this means even a a cheap 0.2 moon should be able to turn a small profit.
CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? | Join[..SIN] |
Jojin
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Posted - 2006.07.03 22:22:00 -
[41]
If there was just a continual seeding of T2 blueprints into the market to coincide with the development schedule I think it would be sufficient. This would slow chip away at monopolies then around the time it is more common they are ready to release the next phase and the process can start over again.
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Will Hunter
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Posted - 2006.07.03 22:31:00 -
[42]
Makes me wonder that perhaps the reason why t2 cap power relays have'nt been released is that ccp does'nt want to see the item go the same direction as t2 cap rechargers?
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Drizit
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Posted - 2006.07.03 22:57:00 -
[43]
I hate to say this but, unless T2 BPO's are seeded slowly in the very near future, I believe that market capping is required.
My logic for this is that those in lowsec and 0.0 are usually first to get T2 stuff, mainly because they are the more experienced players who have less time to train the relevant skills. (ie: already have lvl 5 in most required skills anyway and only require 1 or 2 levels of the new skill to fly a T2 ship of fit a T2 mod). This puts an immediate strain on highsec because new players have to train far longer to get them but, by the time they have trained to the required levels, the T2 equipment is stupidly expensive. No matter what the older players say about what you can earn in highsec (I've been in highsec for over a year so I know), there is little chance a highsec resident can really afford to lose a T2 ship or even a T1 ship fitted with T2 mods and weapons. First rule I beleive is: Don't fly what you can't afford to replace.
Now you have a situation where new players with almost everything T1 are expected to migrate into lowsec and below and compete against older players who are using mostly T2. Even cruiser v HAC is a foregone conclusion unless the HAC pilot makes stupid mistakes which is rather unlikely. Add noob v older player where skills are concerned to this and you have a situation where the noob is simply committing suicide. Then questions are asked as to why so many players stay in highsec.
Cap the market. I have seen HACs double in price in the last 4 months. Considering how much insurance you get back when you lose it, even 100m is outlandishly expensive but 200m is simply extortion  . I know some of it is down to resellers and such but with a cap on the market (like the monopolies commission in the UK can do), it allows the BPO owners to make a fair profit but prevents resellers pushing up prices to crazy limits.
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.07.03 22:59:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Drizit
Cap the market. I have seen HACs double in price in the last 4 months. Considering how much insurance you get back when you lose it, even 100m is outlandishly expensive but 200m is simply extortion . I know some of it is down to resellers and such but with a cap on the market (like the monopolies commission in the UK can do), it allows the BPO owners to make a fair profit but prevents resellers pushing up prices to crazy limits.
Price is already capped. Highest ppl will buy a HAC is about 250M.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Drizit
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Posted - 2006.07.04 01:01:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Price is already capped. Highest ppl will buy a HAC is about 250M.
Why did i immediately think of the old expression 'more money than sense'?
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Ricdic
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Posted - 2006.07.04 04:13:00 -
[46]
Not all t2 bpo's are the huge isk sinks some of you may believe them to be.
I own 2 t2 ammo bpos
Javelin Thorn Rocket BPO
Javelin Inferno Torpedo BPO
Now in the time I build standard Inferno Torpedo's compared to the time it takes to build the Javelin's, I can actually make more profit off the standard t1 torps. I am currently selling my Javelin torps at 300 isk each (roughly 10-15% markup on build cost)
Plus the fact that the Javelins sell nowhere near as fast as the standard t1's. My profit on both bpo's combined comes to about 5-10 million isk a week (if all items sell which is very rare).
Food for thought. Yes some t2 bpo's are extremely profitable, but I would say the vast majority are not billionaire making bpo's
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Vaar
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Posted - 2006.07.04 18:58:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Swethren
As things stand at this time, T2 is the bane of many. Inflated prices that seem to cater for the rich rather than the general populace. I for one had just got T2 drones before the price went in excess of 1mil a drone.
With Kali upcoming, reverse engineering is suppose to help with this. With the general idea being T2 Item + reverse engineering + RP + random stuff = T2 BPC/BPO. As hammerhead said, perhaps it's time T2 became the norm.
So this should fix the T2 prices... but will it? I was just pondering on morphite and how it's readily avalible. People say they mine about and sell about 300 units and guys are only asking 1-2 months later for another 300 units, with solid buidling of T2 in that time. So right now prices are pretty stable. Whats going to happen when T2 does become the norm? Is morphite going to become the bane on T2 producers lives and hence transfering it to the consumer?
Will there be enough to go around, or should I say, will there be enough coming out of the alliances which they will not be using themselves?
Swethren
To anwser the opening poster's question is no one is really quite sure. My guess is there will be an initial large increase in t2 stuff as everyone with RPs to burn will use them to get themselves t2 bpcs. After the initial 6-8 week period prices will stabilize. I think apart the really popular t2 items like cap rechargers, hacs and cloaks most t2 items will not reduce in price much however that should satisfy most people since those are the items people complain most about however the prices will never come close to insurance prices since the cost to build them is higher and with the large increase in the amount of t2 components required in Kali build costs will go up (or at least temporarily).
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Pegas
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Posted - 2006.07.04 19:15:00 -
[48]
T3 I think will be coming in kali (second patch I`m guessing?) , cause there is really no point in having a caldari outpost built than.
I for one agree with "reverse engineering" and I belive there will be a limited number of copyies from that ship possible.
Ofc prices will drop and T2 producers will whine (talking about the cap 2 bpo owner and hac ones), but I belive is a nice move from CCP and will help the pvp side of eve ( yes and the pve as well).
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.07.04 19:20:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 04/07/2006 19:20:43
I like T2 to be a bit overpriced. The idea of T2 as entry level for PvPing is really bad for younger players or T1 players in PvP. If T2 really becomes entry level, all engagements really depend on who have the most T2 on their side. Side effects of losing T2 would still be fun if they are a bit overpriced. 
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.07.04 19:31:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 04/07/2006 19:37:15
I think tech in this game should work like new technology in the real world. Something new comes along and it costs a crapload of money. After a while, the prices fall down to a reasonable level because the producer have fine-tuned the manifacturing process and can churn out more of them. Also the manifacturing process become cheaper with time.
Also in the real world, by manifacturing a product, the company becomes really good at it... and also good at inventing improvements (which later becomes new technology or versions of old technology).
In Eve, the amount you can produce are fixed. Since demand is pretty constant, the prices dont go down. You cant produce more of the items even if you wanted to. If you could, it would drown the market and make prices go down alot. The manifacturer would still be making lots of money though, but by selling cheaper to alot more people. I guess this is where we are heading with Kali and reverse engineering, but with the difference that instead of one company making the product, we will have lots.
Why not automaticly shorten the time needed to make a product from a bpo when you are using it? So with time, you could produce more and more of a product. This will maybe make hacs drop to 100 million each, but the seller might sell 3 times as many of them and make more profits anyway.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Will Hunter
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Posted - 2006.07.04 19:48:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 04/07/2006 19:20:43
I like T2 to be a bit overpriced. The idea of T2 as entry level for PvPing is really bad for younger players or T1 players in PvP. If T2 really becomes entry level, all engagements really depend on who have the most T2 on their side. Side effects of losing T2 would still be fun if they are a bit overpriced.
I don't think tech2 will totally replace tech1,especially as it takes quite a long time for younger players to get the full benefits out of tech 1 and then tech 2.
However a situation where fleets continue to be built up of tech 1 only because its affordable does'nt show much signs of progession.
The thing about tech2 is specialization, so far lots of tech2 ships have been released i.e. logistics that you don't often see involved in pvp fleets due to the cost of loosing them - same applies to steath bombers 20mil plus 3 tech2 cruise at 8mil per unit for a manticore is a lot to loose in a standard fleet, but if it was more reasonable say 4 mil for the ship and a little less for the launchers...
One day tech2 battleships may arrive, but should the pro manufactures standing of there should be very few of them at an insane price hold up to this? Especially as these will probably require equally insane skills!
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Alazais
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Posted - 2006.07.05 07:32:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
another tech level isnt needed honestly, T2 is good enough what is needed though is more ships across tech 1. Tech3 cant be better then tech 2 or else a tech 1 ship will never beat a tech 3 ship which isnt right(gotta maintain balance and have victory possible for anyone reguardless of tech level).
Make tech 3 as shiny as you want, give it more damage bonus's but keep EW able to disable it just as easy as a tech 2 ship snd even an EW t1 ship can down a t3 one. Simple, although i fear it would make EW even more common then it is today... jammers duct taped to high slots anyone?
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Rick Dentill
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Posted - 2006.07.05 07:49:00 -
[53]
Quote:
Is morphite going to become the bane on T2 producers lives and hence transfering it to the consumer?
last time i checked citadel markets, there were several huge sell orders of morphite so no i dont think that will be a worry.
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http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd |
Drizit
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Posted - 2006.07.05 07:59:00 -
[54]
At the moment maybe 
When morphite becomes the deciding factor in manufacture of large quantities of T2, things will change.
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Malachon Draco
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Posted - 2006.07.05 09:19:00 -
[55]
T2 is in some areas a decided advantage, and considering its price, that is valid IMO. Certainly because you can and will lose T2 ships quite easily as well, making the higher cost actually be significant.
However, what should be avoided is T2 making T1 obsolete. Example: T2 guns with T2 ammo fire considerably further than T1 guns. In fleetbattles that means T1 is getting obsolete. If you want a reasonable progression for new people, and not force them to train longer and longer to be effective in combat, that is not the way to go.
T2 guns also can hit considerably harder than T1 guns. Decided advantage for T2, but doesn't make T1 obsolete.
So before introducing T3, I think CCP should really consider the impact of the new items on the older ones, do they make them obsolete or not?
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Za Po
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Posted - 2006.07.05 15:42:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
And artificially preventing anyone from coming up with their own blueprints by spying, researching, reverse-engineering ... actually, any method whatsoever ... isn't fixing the market?
Not really. T2 items are like patented technology. You discover it, you get monopoly. Think medicines in the real world; the first company to patent a drug gets to make money off it. Other companies can find other drugs that have the same effect (ie, other BPOs for the same item), but there are only so many drugs with those effects to be found (ie, limited number of BPOs). And so, those few drugs are sold at incredible markups on production cost.
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Do you have a solution to the BM and instas problem? Test it against the bookmark requirements. |
Viktor Fyretracker
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Posted - 2006.07.05 16:01:00 -
[57]
Tech 3 should use a blank Chassis system. where by you buy a blank ship frame that has a limit by size(lets use mass since thats easy). with this you can fit power reactors, main computers, cargo holds, low, med, high power hookups, Capicators, etc.(basicly i got this idea off of how ships in SWG JTL where handled, not ever ship even on the same frame was ever the same).
so for example you might see a Tech 3 Industrial frame, but under that could be a cruiser or battlecruiser worth of firepower and a frigate sized hold.
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Kenz Rider
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Posted - 2006.07.05 16:52:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 03/07/2006 14:18:38
Tech1 is ridiculous atm. You can literally earn the isk needed to replace a tech1 fitted cruiser in less time then it takes you to get it killed. How is that a sound situation for an economy that depends on destruction to fuel it ?
The goons seem to be taking advantage of this quite nicely.
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BuSHiDo ZiN
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Posted - 2006.07.06 21:37:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
Tech 3 should use a blank Chassis system. where by you buy a blank ship frame that has a limit by size(lets use mass since thats easy). with this you can fit power reactors, main computers, cargo holds, low, med, high power hookups, Capicators, etc.(basicly i got this idea off of how ships in SWG JTL where handled, not ever ship even on the same frame was ever the same).
so for example you might see a Tech 3 Industrial frame, but under that could be a cruiser or battlecruiser worth of firepower and a frigate sized hold.
The problem with leaving design princple and flexibility to the player on that level is that someone will find a tiny ***** in the system and pound it open, and we'll see frigate hulls able to blow up twelve battleships at once. Take the case of Pun-Pun the kobold from D&D as a shining example of this.
The problem with the system isn't that it bones the consumer, it's that there's no way for an outsider to make the leap into T2 Production market, barring a huge stroke of luck or someone else trying to get out of the market. The patent analogy doesn't really work because of monopoly and antitrust laws and everything.
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Gonger
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Posted - 2006.07.06 22:59:00 -
[60]
This whole thing makes me rather nervous. It's cool to have new stuff, but I like it more when "new stuff" falls into the category of giving way more variety rather than simply cranking the power up way more on what already exists.
Or to put it another way, I'm paranoid that excessive amounts of easily available t2 stuff will dramatically delay new players being able to enter PvP. Sure, you can always fly a tackling frig and add something to a fight, but if it gets to the point where "sorry, you can't do meaningful damage at what has become the new standard range because your character isn't at least a year old" (exaggerated, but this is how things will become if the trend continues), then it's going to really suck. If you listen to some of old vet types, you might as close down account registration for new players because there's no way that anyone would be able to compete.
I think one of the big reasons that Eve continues to get new players is that it isn't so lame as the other mainstream MMORPGs where you're incapable of having fun in the game until you've hit max level or whatever.
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