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Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.25 13:29:00 - [1] - Quote That AU tz ... Also GF
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.25 18:45:00 - [2] - Quote Thanatos Marathon wrote: How long till someone sets up an asakai/okkamon gate camp and/or cloaky bumpers and gankers on station, to destroy the caldari assets that are being moved out? You would be surprised, I think, given the logistical coherence on your side, how many Caldari assets are not there. The last couple of days actually involved a whip-round to buy and move in the ships needed for that day. Rather astoundingly, many Caldari corps do not keep several thousand plexing frigates in their home systems to hand out free to people who join the defence.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.25 19:07:00 - [3] - Quote ALUCARD 1208 wrote: Epikurus wrote: many Caldari corps do not keep several thousand plexing frigates in their home systems to hand out free to people who join the defence. This may be why u keep losing systems then, The lack of proper action on the supply side is not insignificant and corps on our side really need to make solving it a priority. Despite that, this one was really lost in the AU tz. It's incredibly dispiriting for the pilots who are on in EU and US primetime to hold their ground and even push the contested level back over 16 hours and then find that the opposition are plexing practically unopposed with less than 20 guys for 6-8 hours each day and grabbing an extra 15-25% system control. This has been a clear issue with the last few system defence battles but trying to find a solution for it is very hard.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.25 19:09:00 - [4] - Quote Baron' Soontir Fel wrote: Epikurus wrote: ...to hand out free to people who join the defence. You have to at least make people pay for their own ships. Even in derps, 2mil for each ship adds up fast. If you don't want to get reimbursed for your fitting and shopping efforts, then use the extra money to pay for more JF runs to come into system. You can't put the burden of expense on the experienced pilots, everybody can earn money in FW. It's not the isk that's the issue - 4 billion is a pittance and will get you several thousand plexing frigs - but the speed of reshipping. Handing them out for free is the fastest way to do it.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.25 19:16:00 - [5] - Quote SmokinJs Arthie wrote: Epikurus wrote: Baron' Soontir Fel wrote: Epikurus wrote: ...to hand out free to people who join the defence. You have to at least make people pay for their own ships. Even in derps, 2mil for each ship adds up fast. If you don't want to get reimbursed for your fitting and shopping efforts, then use the extra money to pay for more JF runs to come into system. You can't put the burden of expense on the experienced pilots, everybody can earn money in FW. It's not the isk that's the issue - 4 billion is a pittance and will get you several thousand plexing frigs - but the speed of reshipping. Handing them out for free is the fastest way to do it. We rarely hand out things for free. And we seem to reship just fine. Although we do use the "you break it you buy it" policy but that tends to be for ships we have limited numbers of, such as logi. I suppose the question of whether they should be free is a matter of taste. They should certainly be there whether they are charged for or not.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.25 20:54:00 - [6] - Quote SmokinJs Arthie wrote: Arla Sarain wrote: All this system capture crusade is going to end with a Burn Jita except it won't be because of Goons. Wait for the Jita Raids. The Caldari State must learn that they are not safe everywhere and that the Gallente reach is far. The raid might only be a pinprick. But, it will be a prick directly in the heart of the dragon. Cockbags to Jita....soon(tm). There's the set-up there for a joke about the place where pricks are really meant to go but I can't quite make it fit ...
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.26 09:39:00 - [7] - Quote ALUCARD 1208 wrote: Epikurus wrote: This has been a clear issue with the last few system defence battles but trying to find a solution for it is very hard. Then u guys shoulda helped laney and smook with enaluri and you woulda had an au tz a pretty fking good one at that You've said that twice now as if you expect repetition to make it true. Given that those guys didn't turn up for small affairs like the defence of Innia what makes you think they would have provided any kind of reliable AU tz in Okkamon?
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.26 14:55:00 - [8] - Quote SmokinJs Arthie wrote: Epikurus wrote: ALUCARD 1208 wrote: Epikurus wrote: This has been a clear issue with the last few system defence battles but trying to find a solution for it is very hard. Then u guys shoulda helped laney and smook with enaluri and you woulda had an au tz a pretty fking good one at that You've said that twice now as if you expect repetition to make it true. Given that those guys didn't turn up for small affairs like the defence of Innia what makes you think they would have provided any kind of reliable AU tz in Okkamon? Edit - actually, I may have my dates all wrong. Was Enaluri before or after Innia? Enaluri was first then Innia. Oops. That would be why they weren't there for the Innia fight then! Mea culpa.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.26 16:51:00 - [9] - Quote Veskrashen - a minor point on interpreting that data. Summing the participants across multiple days can be very misleading in terms of showing who outnumbered who and by how much. If one side field the same 100 guys everyday for four days the report for that period will show 100 pilots on that side. If the other side fields 75 a day for four days but a different 75 each day the four day report will show 300 pilots on that side, giving the illusion that they outnumbered the first side. Obviously, the Caldari did actually outnumber the Gallente in Okkamon but the margin is far smaller than the 450/250 suggests. Taking things a day at a time we find: 21st - 122/80 22nd - 143/111 23rd - 170/140 24th - 195/168 And for that 4 day period the overall count is 345/223. Putting these numbers together gives a pretty interesting, albeit not terribly surprising, picture.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.28 20:31:00 - [10] - Quote Samuel Triptee wrote: Epikurus wrote: Thanatos Marathon wrote: How long till someone sets up an asakai/okkamon gate camp and/or cloaky bumpers and gankers on station, to destroy the caldari assets that are being moved out? You would be surprised, I think, given the logistical coherence on your side, how many Caldari assets are not there. The last couple of days actually involved a whip-round to buy and move in the ships needed for that day. Rather astoundingly, many Caldari corps do not keep several thousand plexing frigates in their home systems to hand out free to people who join the defence. Wait a minute... WAIT A FREAKIN MINUTE!!! Who was handing out free ships?!?!?!?! Whenever I was on there were no freebies being handed out... there were a few loaner BSs being lent. But, you loose the ship you pay the owner. FREE SHIPS??? Please let me know next time and I'll give Thanatos my 2 week notice before dropping corp... So when you guys are flying out of a POS, how the hell do you keep the accounts straight on hundreds of frigs and dessies that people are hopping in and out of?

Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 31	Posted - 2014.07.29 14:39:00 - [11] - Quote S810 Jr wrote: You fools! Don't you see, Bohica Empire have perfected the ultimate system defence tactics for the squids! Leave fw before we come for their home and the system does not fall! They are coming over to your side apparently. That is the ultimate defensive tactic!
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 32	Posted - 2014.07.30 14:03:00 - [12] - Quote Thanatos Marathon wrote: And Caldari out VP'd by 10k yesterday. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-tEoRa17FY&t=0m47s
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 32	Posted - 2014.07.31 11:13:00 - [13] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: I have personally killed nearly twice as many ships for 4 times the isk value than the entire caldari corp that lives in ladistier this month. And thats with flying 50%+ logi duting okkamon and decent chunk of huola. So much for vibrant. You have 'personally killed' 20 ships for a value of 393mil in the last month. Not knocking your obviously good record but claiming to have 'personally killed' every ship that you appear on the KM for is a bit meh.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 11:28:00 - [14] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: I see what you are saying, but not even close to correct. I was going by top line numbers for me and them so its a fair comparison. Going for the semantic angle really is the final recourse in any conversation. Also, eve-kill shows 31 solo kills, which doesnt include no doubt dozens of kills where the rat also got on the mail. Dont quit the day job epi :) Comparing corp and individual top line numbers is not a fair comparison at all and I'm pretty sure you know it. If you want a fair comparison on those grounds you will need to sum the numbers for the individuals in the corp. (edit - which corp is it?) Not semantics, just reasonable analysis of the data. Which, by the way, is a big part of my day job
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 12:02:00 - [15] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: If you like i will compare my corp top line to theirs. Same difference. You sought to inflate the difference by comparing their entire corp's activities to 'little ol' me', when comparing killboards stats for an individual and a corp with more than one member is statistically pointless. So, we now move on to comparing your corp to theirs in an attempt to justify your initial analysis. But, of course, your corp is not comparable since it only has one active member. Comparing apples and oranges is rarely fruitful Quote: I think the misunderstanding here is you think im pointing at glowing efficiency and awesome kills to show im better than other people. Not at all, im pointing at top line numbers to easily describe activity levels. The fact that my single toon gets more activity than the most experienced caldari FW corp is the entire point of my comparison (to show that beyond gate camps and station games its pretty dead in that area). You are just perpetuating your fallacious reasoning here. Your single toon does not get more activity than their entire corp just because it gets on more killmails, unless 'activity' is defined in a particularly thin manner which would then undermine the point of the comparison between you and them. All a comparison of the two numbers shows is that you made at least some contribution to more kills than they did but this provides no context for judging any kind of rich sense of 'activity' as it ignores the type of kills in which both parties were involved and the level of contribution they made to those kills.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 12:17:00 - [16] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Activity levels has and always will be easily gauged by kill board stats. Killboards are, and always have been, extremely crude instruments for measuring activity. When a crude instrument is combined with an inappropriate comparison the data that comes out has little to no value. Crosi Wesdo wrote: Pretty sure you just contradicted yourself. Where?
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 12:57:00 - [17] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Agreed, killboards do not show mining activities or industrial work etc. Not sure thats the kind of activity i was talking about. There is plenty more that killboards don't show. Quote: Sure there are other factors, like the one person could spend more hours online than an entire corp, but since that statistic is unobtainable it is taken into consideration but ultimately ignored. Now you're getting somewhere, although it is entirely wrong to say that factors for which data is unobtainable is or should be ignored. Any proper analysis will build in the uncertainty deriving from ignorance, not just pretend it isn't there and make certain claims regardless. But this only scratches the surface of what the top line numbers on the killboards don't show. Another thing they don't show is type of PvP engaged in. Someone who stalks his prey for half an hour before killing him is not less active in any meaningful way than someone who fires off one shot at each of ten insta-popped targets coming through a gate camp in the same period. What they are doing is engaging in entirely different activities, one of which generates a higher number of killmails than the other. To identify activity with number of killmails tout court simply hollows out the notion of 'activity'. Quote: However, if one person is involved with more kills than an entire corp, it is absolutely fair to say that the one person operates in places that have higher levels of activity than the corp. The individuals contribution to that activity is a different matter entirely. There is another error of reasoning here. Whatever the correlation one chooses to draw between quantity of killmails and activity in a corp and/or an individual, the conclusions about activity in a place cannot be derived from the 'activity' of either one individual or one corp taken in isolation. A case needs to be made for that corp and individual being representative of all the others operating in the place in question otherwise we end up with a dubious induction from the particular to the general of the same form as the claim that because this person has a beard, all people must have beards. Since there are other corps operating in the area in question that have higher numbers of killmails, and many many individuals operating in other parts of the warzone who have far fewer KMs than you, it rather looks like the claim is based on outliers rather than genuinely representative data. By the way, I'm not at all sure that your conclusion is wrong, just your argument
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 13:24:00 - [18] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: TL;DR Dont need a proper analysis to draw a workable conclusion. Mt argument is robust enough to be fit for the purpose it was intended. Your argument is not 'sufficiently robust' - it is fallacious in places, riddled with holes, and grounded on a foundation of sand. The fact that you might be right about your conclusion doesn't help with that, any-more than the claim that 'the fairies will make the dice come up with a double six this time because I have been unlucky in the past' is validated if the dice do happen to roll these numbers. But good attempt.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 13:38:00 - [19] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Epikurus wrote: Crosi Wesdo wrote: TL;DR Dont need a proper analysis to draw a workable conclusion. Mt argument is robust enough to be fit for the purpose it was intended. Your argument is not 'sufficiently robust' - it is fallacious in places, riddled with holes, and grounded on a foundation of sand. The fact that you might be right about your conclusion doesn't help with that, any-more than the claim that 'the fairies will make the dice come up with a double six this time because I have been unlucky in the past' is validated if the dice do happen to roll these numbers. But good attempt. Im not here to connect the dots for you. The argument and conclusion is perfectly acceptable in the context it was presented. Non of your objections even applies to my argument or conclusion. "foundation of sand" - lol, you are just mad posting now bro. Argument by assertion ... nice. I guess simply repeating 'I'm right' is easier than responding to the points I made.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 13:59:00 - [20] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Epikurus wrote: Argument by assertion ... nice. I guess simply repeating 'I'm right' is easier than responding to the points I made. I presented the only required supporting evidence in my initial argument that triggered your inane posting. Just because you buried it in a very indulgent stream of irrelevant objections and spurious redefinitions of what is generally considered activity in the context i used the word. "evidence"

Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 14:21:00 - [21] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Thanatos Marathon wrote: If you don't want to compare a single player to a corp then by all means, compare our corp to theirs. Lets see. 44 members with 432 kills vs, 47 members with 3625 kills. Im sure there will be a reason this doesnt illustrate activity levels lol. No, that's a far more reasonable place to start from than your initial attempt. At the very least it is comparing things of the same type, which is a great development. Let's leave aside the question of whether a crude equation of quantity of killmails with PvP activity is warranted, for the moment, and move on to explaining why data about these two particular corps should be taken as representative of the regions in which they live and fight. Are they both the top corps in their respective regions? Or, if we chose different corps for our illustration would this dramatic difference in kills disappear, or at least be mitigated?
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 15:47:00 - [22] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Reasonable in the sense that even though it still makes them look like a dead corp, at least it doesnt show their entire corp is less active than a single player. However, that was my original point, so.... Really? You could at least stick to a consistent story: Crosi Wesdo wrote: Nah, he thinks its my ego. Im just saying its pretty dead down in the OMS area. Well, if you ignore the sac guard gangs and UCF zergs. Quote: I dont need to explain why their activity levels are representative of the activity in their area, do i? I mean if being pedantic is what this boils down to then i guess we are posting for completely different reasons. Actually, that is exactly what you need to do if you want to infer from their number of kills (I still don't know who we are talking about, btw) the general amount of activity in the area. But you really aren't helping yourself at this point. You're getting tangled up by having two separate agendas - 1) trying to make a corp look bad, and 2) making a claim about activity in an area. You want to show 2) by way of 1) when in fact crapping on this corp is getting in the way of demonstrating the level of activity in the area. If you think that this is a dead corp then comparing it to one of the most active Gallente corps is hardly illustrative of anything about the area they live in. Differences in kill levels could be explained by corporate culture, leadership, focus on non-PvP activities, etc etc etc. So, again I ask, why do you think that this corp, rather than one of the corps with more than twice the number of kills, can appropriately be compared to Black Fox to identify comparative levels of activity in their respective areas? For the comparison to be appropriate you would have to pick two corps that are as alike as possible in terms of everything except the areas they operate in. Do you think that is the case with these two corps? Frankly, I think a far better strategy for claiming that one area is more active would be one that simply examined the number of kills (or jumps) in the area and did away entirely with the overlay of corp data. The chances of finding two sample corps that are adequately comparable are low and too much work would need to be done to adjust the data for other environmental factors (esp. if you pick one from the Caldari side and the other from the Gallente side, when it would be much more appropriate to compare two Caldari corps living in different areas). The downside would be that you would lose the opportunity to dump on people which, lets be honest, is really your priority here.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 16:27:00 - [23] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: another tl;dr Im going to go ahead and assume you finally agreed with me. You do that. Reading is hard and rational discussion is harder. It's a whole lot easier to invent a world in which you're right.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 16:57:00 - [24] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Thanatos Marathon wrote: Heyd, 5244 jumps in the last 24 Nisuwa, 1565 jumps in the last 24 You may want to look at how many jumps apart they are as well before you decide that has a giant difference. It isn't like we are comparing FW lowsec to non-fw lowsec corps, or corps that live more than a handful of jumps away from each other. The entire bit is just ridiculous when all that is getting pointed out is taking Heyd/Lad/Deven is, and can be, done anytime we want. We don't get more decent pew pew out of doing so, it is just blobbing the system, taking it, then letting them take it back in a week or two since no one but them wants to live there. Taking Okkamon was harder than taking Heyd, and got us more pew. This is all pretty much because i told him to not quit his day job. Hes insulted so hes gonna keep posting how wrong i am no matter how right i am. You flatter yourself. My main has been making over-long analytical posts designed to make the reader commit suicide for five years or so. I think I'm somewhere around 4000 posts and 1.2 million words on the eve-o forums now. My posts in this thread are nothing unusual.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 17:15:00 - [25] - Quote JAF Anders wrote: Epikurus wrote: My main Posting on an alt? tut tut. Actually, to be more accurate, this is my main and the other one is my forum alt.
Epikurus The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 33	Posted - 2014.07.31 17:33:00 - [26] - Quote Crosi Wesdo wrote: Also, if that is your main, your killboard shows you arnt very active. It's the first character I created so I treat him as my main. This one mainly flies logi though. Quote: Someone must have REALLY upset you a LONG time ago then. Were here for you! You have no idea how long I've been waiting to hear someone say that! Finally I can move on!

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