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Gor Yo
State War Academy
Caldari State
23
   |
Posted - 2014.07.30 13:48:00 -
[1] - Quote
I have been trying to do some station trading, and it is nearly impossible to get buy orders filled. I find myself almost immediately undercut by the same amount of 1.01 ISK. When I specifically checked, the price was undercut within 1 minute after my price update. And it seems the same person because if I dont update the price for a little bit, there is still just 1 bid over my price.
Of course I could be unlucky and he decided to go through his prices right after I updated mine, but again and again?
Seems to me like it is a bot. Are there a lot of them in trading? Can anything be done about it? |
Vibiana
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 14:12:00 -
[2] - Quote
Forum search/bot/or not a bot/ or bot/ eve is dying |
okoolos rimmer
Napkin Nation
61
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 14:17:00 -
[3] - Quote
welcome to a trade hub. |
Lfod Shi
Lfod's Ratting and Salvage
220
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 14:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
This doesn't work everywhere, but when they raise their buy orders over mine by $0.01, I respond by raising my buy by $5.00 (as an example). After a few jumps in price like that many penny traders will just wait for your orders to go away.
But like I said, it doesn't work everywhere. Busy stations are busy and that's just the way it is.
(Heh. Buy by)
...end transmission...
GÖ¬ They'll always be bloodclaws to me GÖ½ |
Abidal Trekt
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
42
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 15:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yeah, 0.1ing sucks. Ude elinor and keyboard macros to make it suck less. |
Angelica Everstar
32
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 15:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
IF you want to do 0.01 ISK wars - I suggest learning to use your mouse-wheel 
Any typos, spelling errors and bad grammer found, are free and yours to keep
Current bond : PFA05 500b / Total 825b |
Myles Kennedy
Ishukone Research And Technology
1
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 20:03:00 -
[7] - Quote
try Amarr and test some modules... that works for me... there is stuff that people tend to buy a lot and very often... like some famous pvp modules... the key is to know what modules .. sometimes I can finish stack before someone update they own prices. Obviously you need to be patient. |
flakeys
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
2360
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 21:02:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gor Yo wrote:I have been trying to do some station trading, and it is nearly impossible to get buy orders filled. I find myself almost immediately undercut by the same amount of 1.01 ISK. When I specifically checked, the price was undercut within 1 minute after my price update. And it seems the same person because if I dont update the price for a little bit, there is still just 1 bid over my price.
Of course I could be unlucky and he decided to go through his prices right after I updated mine, but again and again?
Seems to me like it is a bot. Are there a lot of them in trading? Can anything be done about it?
Avoid jita ...
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
Greedy Mutha
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 21:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
^ what he said |
Myriad Blaze
Common Sense Ltd
Nulli Secunda
274
|
Posted - 2014.07.30 23:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
0.1 ISK wars can be fun, especially when you win. 
One of my fondest memories in my EVE-life is a 0.1 ISK war about a Charon sell order that I won big time.
I think a Charon was around 1.38 Bn at that time and the margin was quite big. I had one up for sale when another trader entered the scene and put his Charon up for 10M cheaper than mine. I did the natural thing and countered his offer by undercutting him by 0.01 ISK. He lowered his price by 1M and I undercut him by 0.01 ISK again. He went another million lower and again I placed my order 0.01 ISK cheaper than his.
Now lowering the price going in large steps but not large enough to make a strong impression is something that is almost always very stupid imho (there are exceptions). Also I noticed that the market updates from my competitor usually came within 30 to 60 seconds after I updated my own order. So I started to take a closer look .
I began to update my order almost exactly after the 5 min cooldown was over, always undercutting him by 0.01 ISK. He also updated his order, always going down by 1M, but he usually needed up to a minute after his cooldown was over. That way I got into the better position fast and was able to undercut his orders seconds after he posted them.
I believe that infuriated him somehow, because he started to lower the price by increasingly larger increments and also updated his order as fast as he could - which didn't help, because I remained focussed and we continued to fight with two sell orders, his and mine. The sell price dropped very fast, more than half the margin was lost already... then it happened:
I was spamming refresh commands because I expected his market update. Suddenly his sell order vanished and my wallet began to blink. Also my buy order for a Charon vanished. When I checked my wallet I realized, that the other guy had sold his Charon to me. The selling price was almost exactly what I had expected. However, it seemed the guy was under some kind of emotional stress when he submitted that specific order update... to his misfortune he had misplaced the decimal point and sold the Charon to me for 130M (or so) instead of 1.3Bn 
I admit that I laughed so hard, I almost choked. That really made my day. 
|
Litair
Nleesh
208
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 00:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
It is most definitely quite annoying yes. It's not just when station trading, but also as an industrial person, if you want to make a profit you pretty much have to put up sell orders. There is obviously a lot of other loot in general where the difference between buy and sell orders is really high.
So traditionally in most other games with similar buy/sell order markets, you can sell immediately and pay for the convenience with slightly less profit, while putting up a sell order will net your more money, but it'll take longer.
We can all see the point in that I'm sure, and I'm all in for that, but in EvE on top of being patient and waiting, you also have to constantly do the 0.01 bidding, otherwise your order will be permanently burried and never sell.
I'm not really sure what should be done about it, but I am thinking that increasing the time limit for modifying orders to a day or at least multiple hours would help, as station traders then would have to rely more on witty market strategies instead of being constantly online to overbid their competitors by 0.01, which frankly doesn't require a degree in market science. It would make for much more amusing market gameplay!
Alternatively increase the price for modifying orders drastically..
And as amusing the Myriad Blaze story may be, that is an extremely rare occurrence I would dare say :p |
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Inter Vivos Trust Service
70
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 00:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aggressive pricing is your friend. When they 0.01 ISK you respond by cutting the margin by five or ten percent. You'll make less profit per item but you'll have a net gain in income because you'll waste way less time.
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."-á- Book of Reclaiming 22:13 |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3300
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 02:05:00 -
[13] - Quote
Undercut deep in an inconvenient place (so if you are in Dodixie trading 1600mm tech 2 plates, and someone 0.01 ISKs you, post 1 of the item in Decon, a nearby fairly dangerous lowsec system).
If they counter-undercut with their whole stock, repeat it, and try to get their stock to a price you would buy it at.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=346564 - a proposal to overhaul the Logistics skill
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content.
www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
47
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 02:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
You could try playing the 0.01 isk game for a while, creating new orders to compete and get around the five minute update restriction. Do this back and forth for a while and then abruptly stop for 15-20 minutes. A lot of the time the other trader will move on to different items and you can adjust your order one last time without being noticed. |
Gor Yo
State War Academy
Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 10:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
guys, did you see that I specifically mention 1.01 ISK, not 0.01?!?!
I have no problem with 0.01 ISKers - most of them are actual players and I am fine with that. Sometimes it takes them longer to update the price, sometimes they take a break.
but this "player" always updates by 1.01 ISK, and always very quickly after my update. If I dont update for a short time, then he is the only one above me (if I dont update for longer, there are more orders of course, but his order always stands out because it is 1.01 above the previous one, unlike players' orders 0.01 or some random multiple of 0.01). If I update mine - before I reach the 10th order on my list, he already undercut my first one.
I made a mistake of investing in low volume item (ships), so there is not much order traffic there and his behavior is obvious!
I know about mouse wheel and strategies like multiple order to update faster or aggressive undercutting (which I already did on a couple of items to simple get out without a loss on fees).
But the point is this is quite obviously a bot, and I am curious how prevalent it is in trading specifically or in EVE in general?
I kind of thought about station trading for some side income, but I have no desire to fight against market bots. |
Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
388
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 11:24:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gor Yo wrote:guys, did you see that I specifically mention 1.01 ISK, not 0.01?!?!
I have no problem with 0.01 ISKers - most of them are actual players and I am fine with that. Sometimes it takes them longer to update the price, sometimes they take a break.
but this "player" always updates by 1.01 ISK, and always very quickly after my update. If I dont update for a short time, then he is the only one above me (if I dont update for longer, there are more orders of course, but his order always stands out because it is 1.01 above the previous one, unlike players' orders 0.01 or some random multiple of 0.01). If I update mine - before I reach the 10th order on my list, he already undercut my first one.
I made a mistake of investing in low volume item (ships), so there is not much order traffic there and his behavior is obvious!
I know about mouse wheel and strategies like multiple order to update faster or aggressive undercutting (which I already did on a couple of items to simple get out without a loss on fees).
But the point is this is quite obviously a bot, and I am curious how prevalent it is in trading specifically or in EVE in general?
I kind of thought about station trading for some side income, but I have no desire to fight against market bots.
With this post, you have inspired a dozen more people to do the same.
.
|
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
6
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 11:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
I usually undercut to a whole 00-figure. Guess I'm a bot.
Whiirrr, buzzz, etc. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
141
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 13:01:00 -
[18] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:IF you want to do 0.01 ISK wars - I suggest learning to use your mouse-wheel
Mind Blown.
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5500
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 13:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Litair wrote:
We can all see the point in that I'm sure, and I'm all in for that, but in EvE on top of being patient and waiting, you also have to constantly do the 0.01 bidding, otherwise your order will be permanently burried and never sell.
Wrong.
Litair wrote:
I'm not really sure what should be done about it
You could start by doing something about it. New gen players born under the "all-over-welfare mentality" wait for someone else to fix their problems.
Since I feel nice today (it doesn't show, right? ), I'll type the top 2 trader rules:
1) Capital preservation above all (one of many wise concepts coming from the classic: "The Intelligent Investor").
2) The trend is your friend.
By using 1 and 2 you can put up orders that will auto-fill while you sleep. Voil+á, fixed all those fearsome issues!
Rule 1, as it was first written, applies to investors. But it also applies to traders who want to actually survive the markets.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Avi Shekelstien
New Order Logistics
CODE.
0
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 22:17:00 -
[20] - Quote
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:Aggressive pricing is your friend. When they 0.01 ISK you respond by cutting the margin by five or ten percent. You'll make less profit per item but you'll have a net gain in income because you'll waste way less time.
This. There is no point in constantly updating by 0.1 in the hope you will be on top when a big buy order comes in. |
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon
Inter Vivos Trust Service
71
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 23:19:00 -
[21] - Quote
Gor Yo wrote:guys, did you see that I specifically mention 1.01 ISK, not 0.01?!?!
I have no problem with 0.01 ISKers - most of them are actual players and I am fine with that. Sometimes it takes them longer to update the price, sometimes they take a break.
but this "player" always updates by 1.01 ISK, and always very quickly after my update. If I dont update for a short time, then he is the only one above me (if I dont update for longer, there are more orders of course, but his order always stands out because it is 1.01 above the previous one, unlike players' orders 0.01 or some random multiple of 0.01). If I update mine - before I reach the 10th order on my list, he already undercut my first one.
I made a mistake of investing in low volume item (ships), so there is not much order traffic there and his behavior is obvious!
I know about mouse wheel and strategies like multiple order to update faster or aggressive undercutting (which I already did on a couple of items to simple get out without a loss on fees).
But the point is this is quite obviously a bot, and I am curious how prevalent it is in trading specifically or in EVE in general?
I kind of thought about station trading for some side income, but I have no desire to fight against market bots.
Responding to 1.01 ISKing, be it by a human or bot, remains the same as far as I'm concerned. Price them out of the market. If you want make a purchase from the person to get a name and then report the player for suspected botting. CCP will make a point of not looking into it for you and dispensing no punishment. Unless it's part of a Holy Banpocalypse but those don't happen as often as they should.
"I give you the destiny of Faith, and you will bring its message to every planet of every star in the heavens: Go forth, conquer in my Name, and reclaim that which I have given."-á- Book of Reclaiming 22:13 |
Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3315
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 23:26:00 -
[22] - Quote
I often 10.01 ISK manually. If a price ends in four 9s, I almost always 10.01 ISK as people then 0.01 what they think you've posted, and you end up 9.99 below them.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=346564 - a proposal to overhaul the Logistics skill
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content.
www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Gor Yo
State War Academy
Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.01 11:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ibrahim Tash-Murkon wrote:
Responding to 1.01 ISKing, be it by a human or bot, remains the same as far as I'm concerned. Price them out of the market. If you want make a purchase from the person to get a name and then report the player for suspected botting. CCP will make a point of not looking into it for you and dispensing no punishment. Unless it's part of a Holy Banpocalypse but those don't happen as often as they should.
The point of this thread was to see if anything official can be done about botters. I guess I got my answer.
Sure I can aggressively undercut and destroy the profit margin, but if that is the solution to market bots, why not just do away with sell/buy order system?
Anyway, rant off, topic closed  |
Nor Aken
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.04 00:27:00 -
[24] - Quote
Thank you vaerah for trying to put some sense into this thread. |
Slothook
Higher Than Everest
Black Legion.
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.05 18:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
The first thing is, gather what evidence you can which lends weight to him being a bot - in 99% of cases where someone has blamed a toon for being a market bot they are wrong - Remember, some people have no lives and are happy to sit on a dozen orders spamming the market button for several hours, updating each order at every possible moment (have done it myself where large amounts of isk involved, ie patch days)
If you still believe they are a bot then right click their details, top left of their character page is a dropdown by where it says character info - left click that select report bot - fill out and submit.
As mentioned above, In 99% of cases you will be positive they are a bot and you will be wrong - but if you do have genuine cause to suspect then report and let CCP do the real detective work. |
Sh0plifter
Underworld Initiative
52
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
I have been playing around in Jita lately while nothing is going on with my Main or any alts. I have noticed on some items where every 5 minutes they will get updated regardless of being outbid or not. That is just a bot, and they are annoying.
A bot will be scripted to run so that it updates as soon as it can normally. If you want to beat a bot like 1.01 just update yours with a 10,01 and laugh at him as he will continue to 1.01 off his orignal |
Jarnis McPieksu
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
527
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:I often 10.01 ISK manually. If a price ends in four 9s, I almost always 10.01 ISK as people then 0.01 what they think you've posted, and you end up 9.99 below them.
This. 1.01 and 10.01 ISKing is a way to hoodwink manual 0.01 ISK warriors (who miss that the whole ISK digit also changed and end up posting a new price that is higher than yours) and try to open a window to get your stack moved.
Mostly seen in Jita. Works best during slightly quieter times when you are 0.01:ing against just one or two guys.
Of course stuff would move much faster if buy order guys were more realistic with their offers. Free tip; If you see 10% gap between sell and buy order, putting up 0.01 ISK higher buy order will not get you stuff. Putting one up that is considerably closer to the sell price will get you that stuff almost instantly, at a lower price than straight up buying from the 0.01 ISK warriors.
(generally works for stuff that is aggressively being 0.01 ISKed over. Works much worse for stuff like moongoo, reaction materials etc. that tend to arrive in large bulk batches from far fewer sellers)
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