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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1325
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Posted - 2014.07.30 22:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
I'm not sure why ccp made these ships so strong. Perhaps they didn't realize how powerful they would be when combined with the buffs to drones.
In a way they are victim of their own success as no one will fight them unless it's bait.
Why not balance them with the other pirate ships? I don't care whether the buff the other pirate frigs and cruisers or nerf the worm and gila or both. But its pretty lopsided right now.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1325
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Posted - 2014.07.31 00:21:00 -
[2] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Could you elaborate as to how they're overpowered in any way?
Fair question let me go with the worm. Here is a fit that might not be optimal but its much better than other pirate frigates.
[Worm, Fittings.]
Internal Force Field Array I
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
1MN Afterburner II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Medium Ancillary Shield Booster
Rocket Launcher II
Rocket Launcher II
Empty
Small Bay Loading Accelerator I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Small Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Hobgoblin II
Warrior II
Hobgoblin II
321 dps with overheat and you can overheat the rockets for about 3 minutes. Put navy infernos in and it goes down to 306. Drones do 234 in dps so you don't need to worry about kiters too much nor do you need to worrry about tracking because hobs track like crazy (2.178) and orbit well within their optimal. (I looked at trying to td one drone to bring damage down but this looks futile) Without blue pill this tanks 168 with it tanks196. It has 5459 ehp buffer. What pirate frigate comes close?
Sure garmur has a great range advantage if you are into kitey stuff but I doubt I would mess with the warriors coming from a worm. Sure you can try to damp and out range it but that pretty much goes for any frigate. Its not a unique weakness of the worm.
So any pirate ship will fail against it . Nothing has the range flexibility of the light drones as well as the gank and tank. I mean with a daredevil great dps and nice web bonus but you won't have a chance with either rails or blasters. Same with dramiel.
Succubus has a nice ab bonus but its not agile enough to handle the speed and the tracking of its guns even with the bonus is not great. And eve if it had perfect trackign the gank and tank of the worm far surpass it close or long range. And its susceptable to neuts - oh yeah the worm fit has tank and gank completely immune to neuts.
Your best hope against the worm is you might be able to get away.
Other reasons to think the worm and gila are overpowered. They cost the most in the pirate classes of ships - by close to double. Worm buy order 90 mill gila buy order 311 mill. This is true even though the rattler is selling for cheap and you would think that would mean people getting these guristas ships are just getting gilas and worms!
Plus you can never get a fight in a worm unless its bait.
I am not upset about this because I really don't mind if one ship is overpowered. I was really just wondering if there was a reason these ships are so overpowered.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1325
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Posted - 2014.07.31 01:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:Celthric Kanerian wrote:First people say they are underpowered, now they say they are overpowered, and then tomorrow they are suddenly underpowered again... That's because... It's the ciiiiiiiiiiiircle of teaaaaaaaars... and it mooooves us alllllllll~
Please tell me how any fit from a daredevil, dramiel, succubus or cruror would have a chance of killing the worm fit I posted.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1326
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Posted - 2014.07.31 02:44:00 -
[4] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Your best bet is to ECM one of their two drones and halve their DPS. Can't do anything about the Worm's tank, though.
Thats a decent idea specifically for fighting worms but generally I don't like carrying ecm on unbonused ships. But for fighting worms putting two ecm (one for each drone) on a hook bill might be kinda funny.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1327
|
Posted - 2014.07.31 12:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:Danika Princip wrote:Could you elaborate as to how they're overpowered in any way? [Lots of good stuff I thought was obvious to others when I made this post] For example even TOO STRONG DD - is actually WEAK when you compare it to worm. DPS aint much higher (and only if you go blasters) - damage projection is much worse - especially range. No selectible damage type and on top of that DD does not even have 50% of worms tank to begin with. And its not that DD is weak - its blantly broken ship , op like hell. Yet somehow it possess some weak spots that you may try to exploit to beat it. Worm on the other hand ... those weak spots are so far unknown... despite people trying hard to find a hole in its defence or offence ... somehow ship persists, butchers entire gangs of other frigs. Stomps destroyers, assault frigs alike aswell. Not to mention it can take on huge range of cruisers.
The last bit about the dd is perhaps where I would disagree. I tend to think the other pirate faction ships are too weak. I wouldn't mind if the worm was the bar that pirate ships are too meet. I don't think the dd should be nerfed. It is weaker than many afs that cost less than half and destroyers are about equal to it despite being 1/10 the price to fly.
I think maybe the pirate ships should meet somewhere between the worm and the dd or the others should be brought up to the worm. What I don't understand is why the worm is singled out in the pirate ship line up to be so much more powerful than the rest.
E.g., Give the succubus more agility and more power grid and maybe even another high turret slot. That would put it in line with the worm.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1327
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Posted - 2014.07.31 12:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Xequecal wrote:Rivr Luzade wrote:Xequecal wrote:I'm not sure why "overpowered in frigate duels" qualifies as broken. That ship existed before the patch, its called a sentinel and you don't beat it with any frig either. Crow? Malediction? Kestrel? Ishkur? Tristan? Imicus? ASB Shield tankers with non-cap weapons?  You get capped out and they warp off, you're not going to kill them.
Just because you can say "oh ____" and then warp off in structure does not mean your ship is op. All capless pirate and even faction frigates will do that to the sentinal.
However all other pirate frigates and navy frigates will at best say "oh ____" and try to warp away from the worm.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1327
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Posted - 2014.07.31 13:04:00 -
[7] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:
Awwwwwwwww...how cute.
A Goon thinks he knows about solo PVP!
I am not sure what the point of his post was. It was cute thought. I don't know how these ships are made. Perhaps goons have an economic incentive to leave gurista ships overpowered because they are in gurista space? (again I really don't know enough about it to say whether this is a big deal or not)
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1328
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Posted - 2014.08.02 13:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
elitatwo wrote:[quote=Zappity]
What is wrong about a ship that I can finally use for my solo style of flying?
Before the Worm was made an actual pirate boat, nobody wanted to fly them and now that they are good, people complain that they cannot beat them with an Ibis, yeah that's too bad, maybe you folks forget that pirate boats are supposed to be stronger than tech2 boats and shouldn't explode by the looks of an assault ship..
My complaint is not that you can't beat it with an ibis but you can't beat it with any sort of reasonable fit for a dramiel, daredevil, succubus or curor.
You see I offered one fit for the worm and said give me any fit for those other pirate frigates that would have a chance against it. Now normally you have about 3 options of where you are trying to fight. 1)in close 2) kiting edge of scram and 3) outside scram range kiting with a long point. Well that single worm fit wins against all reasonable fits for the other 4 pirate frigs at all those ranges. It does the same for all other regular faction ships. End result? Why even bother against a worm? There is no way to win.
Now really I don't mind that pirate frigates are powerful. In fact i like that. They are more expensive than tech 2 and much more expensive than destroyers. But the 4 pirate frigates are outclassed by the worm. So there is still an imbalance in that class.
I recommended giving the succubuse better agility and an extra high slot with a turret. CCP seems to want to make ships cookie cutter where they all only have a set number of slots except drone ships where they drop one slot. But this doesn't work very well. they should stop trying to do that and just look at what can be accomplished in the ships and balance accordingly.
CCP rise is an excellent pvper. I wonder if he can offer how he would fit one of the other 4 pirate ships so that he would have a chance agaisnt the worm fit posted or one with a passive extender. If not maybe its time to admit the pirate ships are not balanced. And give some more love to the 4 pirate ships I mentioned.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1328
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Posted - 2014.08.04 01:06:00 -
[9] - Quote
Phaade wrote:Valkin Mordirc wrote:Quote:I don't see how the worm is particularly allergic to neuts. Weapons and tank take no cap. Sure your scram does but thats true of all ships. Succubus and to a much lesser extent the daredevil needs to be careful but I am not sure why you say that of the worm . Depending of the Worms fit I suppose would be a better way to put it. But again, the Worm isn't the be all end all. The 350 dps need Augmented Drones, otherwise you get around 300, the 10k buffer tank is tech 2 but it other assault frigates can also run up to that. The Worm can do a huge amount of DPS with a good tank, but it is slow, a fast micro fitted ship can out run it's drones. The Worm from what I've seen is limited to a AB. The worm can be counted by a Crow, or a Slicer. Just as long as pilot can kite propperly. I personally would say if the ships need a nerf, it would be a slight one, maybe keeping the DPS the same, but changing the drone HP bonus? Or limiting the fitting so that only a scram could be fitted rather than the point? Quote:How, pray tell, is a ship with capless weapons and a capless tank 'allergic to neuts'? Since when is a shield tanked ship, capless? Weapons and drones are capless yeah cool, but as soon as your loss your resists, you're 60k tanks suddenly become 18k. SASB, MASB, LASB, XLASB. You kind of lost all credibility with that last bit.
Yes what you say is obvious to anyone who actually has spent time pvping in this game and has a basic understanding of how the modules work.
If you actually look at the combat record of people claiming the worm and gila are not overpowered compared to the other pirate ships, you will see they had no credibility to lose.
I don't mean that as an insult but allot of people tend to give their opinion when its clear there is no way they know what they are talking about.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1330
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Posted - 2014.08.04 18:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Look at the 6 month price graph of the other traditional pirate cruisers and frigates from serpentis, blood raiders, and angels and compare it to guristas.
The rattlesnake was about the cheapest pirate bs out there. So you would think if the ships were balanced the gurista frigates and cruisers would be cheaper than the pirate cruisers and frigates. (because all the lp would be going to supply them) Yet its the opposite.
Does anyone who knows how modules work believe the worm and gila are not clearly stronger than the other traditional pirate cruisers and frigates?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1330
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Posted - 2014.08.04 18:26:00 -
[11] - Quote
Janice en Marland wrote:Cearain wrote:Look at the 6 month price graph of the other traditional pirate cruisers and frigates from serpentis, blood raiders, and angels and compare it to guristas.
The rattlesnake was about the cheapest pirate bs out there. So you would think if the ships were balanced the gurista frigates and cruisers would be cheaper than the pirate cruisers and frigates. (because all the lp would be going to supply them) Yet its the opposite.
Does anyone who knows how modules work believe the worm and gila are not clearly stronger than the other traditional pirate cruisers and frigates? Do you think the new hull changes and rework of the drone skill points could be a cause of their increased popularity?
By hull changes do you mean the bonuses they were given? Yes I do think they are popular because they have overpowered bonuses. The drone changes which made it so they apply more damage also helped make these ships overpowered compared to the serpentis angel and blood raiders ships. It was a combination of factors but I think it was identified that they would be op before the changes, and now its confirmed.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1330
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Posted - 2014.08.05 14:06:00 -
[12] - Quote
Squatdog wrote:I'm just glad I bought a dozen Worm when they were still 52m each a month before the patch.
...back when I was probably the only person in the entire game regularly using them for PVP.
That was a smart buy. I picked up a few myself.
I don't think the pirate frigates have ever been this unbalanced. Even when people said the dramiel was overpowered you could at least kill them with daredevils.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1337
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Posted - 2014.08.07 13:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Athryn Bellee wrote:Renee Chanlin wrote:Yes, it's a pirate faction tech 1 ship. I fly a racial faction tech 1 frig, which is a comet. They are all tech 1 frigs and supposed to be fairly much even.
In this situation, "rebalancing" has left the seesaw stuck to the damn ground. Again, I ask you to find me anything that is classed as a tech one frigate, (which includes dramiels, daredevils, firetails, hookbills etc.) that can produce anything close to the stats you've seen posted for the worm on this thread. The ship progression goes like this T1 > Navy > T2 > Pirate. This is why pirate ships have role bonuses and navy ships don't.
This might be the case but its hard to see how any of the other pirate ships (except the new garmur which has its niche) are as strong as t2 frigates.
I really don't mind if the pirate ships are more powerful than t2 and really if all the pirate frigates are as powerful as the worm. They cost more than t2 frigates so that's fine with me. The problem I have is just about any reasonable fit of the worm is more powerful than any of the reasonable fits of 3 other pirate ships. The worm has about about 50% more dps and 50% more tank and can project it through scram and disruptor range, uses capless weapons capless tank and largely ewar immune weapons and has pretty much full damage type selection.
Like I said to make the succubus competitive it would need another high slot with another turret and more cpu and power grid to support it as well as more agility so it can make a decent use of its ab bonus. If the daredevil dram and cruror are supposed to be better than t2 let alone compete with the worm then they all need substantial buffs. Not just tweaks.
I don't mind upping the stakes and making the more expensive ships powerful but they were supposed to balance the pirate ships and I don't think they have ever been this unbalanced.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1345
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Posted - 2014.08.12 15:28:00 -
[14] - Quote
I am still curious if any fit from a daredevil, succubus or cruror can beat the fairly straight forward fit I posted.
To the extent ccp wanted to have them be more powerful than t2 frigates I think the daredevil, succubus and cruror need some boosts.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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