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This crap's gone too far!

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Sigurd Ross	Posted - 2006.07.09 10:48:00 - [1] I'm all for PVP, I get a kick out of the free, open and dangerous world that pirates provide for us. However, an imbalance is an imbalance. Remember the old days when m0o was pwning people at ridiculously long range with max-caliber artillery, and the only way to survive was "don't go there?" Well, those days are back. Why the hell does the module that boosts lock-on range also boost lock-on speed? And to such extent? Aren't battleships supposed to take a bit longer to lock on to, say, an interceptor, due to the difference in signature versus resolution? Well, I warped to .4 Gate Camp #5897138591398 today. Super-tiny ship next to me is locked, and explodes, literally before the arrival acceleration kicked in. Oh, and then the pod is hit literally in the next blast, 4 seconds later. So, pray tell, what is the counter for this besides "don't go there?" Call me carebear all you want, but something is pretty stupid when a pair of gankers (yes, it was just two ships) in a Tempest and Armageddon can two-shot an interceptor, out of the range of the gate guns, and then immediately ***** the pod in the next shot. I was under the impression that small ships had some vague sort of purpose in this game. I guess it's back to the dark ages of bloated, range-stacked battleships all over again. Are we getting m0o back too?
Sigurd Ross	Posted - 2006.07.09 10:49:00 - [2] Oh, and let me add this: Running blockades is cool. Fighting pirates is fun. This "I win" button crap is what bothers me. What's the counter?
Caleb Paine	Posted - 2006.07.09 10:51:00 - [3] A covert ops, 2-3 shortrange BS's, one gang and some slingshotting ----------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Tobias Sjodin	Posted - 2006.07.09 10:51:00 - [4] I would imagine there were more than one ship attacking you?
wierchas noobhunter	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:01:00 - [5] u just get sniped join col ! now
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:03:00 - [6] No sniper should ever hit an insta-ing ceptor pilot... what were you doing?
mirel yirrin	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:04:00 - [7] Originally by: HippoKing No sniper should ever hit an insta-ing ceptor pilot... what were you doing? Lag Perhaps? I know I can't hit a ceptor at any range unless its moving directly towards me. Maybe a Really really lucky hit? ---------------------------------
Dave White	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:04:00 - [8] Hey, weren't you the guys that were ratting in 0.0 entrance sys P3EN-E? null
Sigurd Ross	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:06:00 - [9] To answer that question about the ships attacking, yes, I was blown up too. But my ship was larger, and I expected it. My beef is that the interceptor ganged with me popped. Instantly. Thanks to uber-magical instant lock-on speed that also took out his pod 2 seconds later. What's that smaller signature for anyway?
Sigurd Ross	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:08:00 - [10] All right, HippoKing. You hit it right on the head. Has EVE degraded into Insta-Sniper Wars? I doubt many pirates like instas, and I know that no one but gate campers likes the super-fast-lockon-of-instant-death. Now, what if we got rid of instas AND cut the lockon speed from this ridiculous targeting range module? Pirates would get some more time to kill their targets, and we wouldnt HAVE to use instas to avoid their "I win" button snipes.

DJTheBaron	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:09:00 - [11] It wouldnt hurt if midslow sb only boosted range and mabye 15% sensor strength and lowslot sa boosted lock time __________________________________________________ Scum, your all scum.
Plutoinum	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:12:00 - [12] Edited by: Plutoinum on 09/07/2006 11:13:47 Compared to pre-rmr, a battleship locks slower due to stacking penalty changes of the sensor-boosters. There is also an extra lag now, when a ship decloaks at the gate and goes into warp. Pre-rmr, I could put 4 sensor-boosters on a tempest and had a good chance to pop a ceptor, before it went into warp after he jumped in. That doesn't work anymore. Don't know how much you can cut it down with a support ship. And the lag imho makes shuttles and ceptors with a nanofiber currently untargettable, before they go into warp, even with over 2000 sensor strength. So imho an interceptor or a shuttle on instas can currently only be killed with the help of an interdictor or a bubble in 0.0. edit: put in some missing words ^^
Naginataii	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:12:00 - [13] Edited by: Naginataii on 09/07/2006 11:12:22 I think your telling half truths. Or are so miffed that your memory is clowded by it. To be honest, if a insta using small ship gets poped by a sniping battleship, they deserve to die.
Gundog Prime	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:13:00 - [14] Edited by: Gundog Prime on 09/07/2006 11:14:26 Any game as complex as EVE has a hundred loopholes, sneaky tricks and all manner of semi-sploits.... Half the fun of it is that its 'live' and very dangerous in 0.0, you never know what combination of ships and opponents ur gonna hit, and so you cant cover every eventuality, short of forming a patrolling militia ur not gonna beat campers... Campers spend alot of time at gates, if you want to beat them ur gonna have to spend an equal amount of time trying to stop them, and you think the world will thank you for that? Nope, so like everyone else you'll have to learn to live with it, not flaming just stating the world ain't a perfect place, live with the imperfections -------------------------------------------------------------- [-DoF-] 4TW - Ravenal we love you!!!!! - Insert CHEAP PAINT SIG here -- Joshua Calvert, the true gamer's gamer
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:13:00 - [15] Originally by: Sigurd Ross All right, HippoKing. You hit it right on the head. Has EVE degraded into Insta-Sniper Wars? I doubt many pirates like instas, and I know that no one but gate campers likes the super-fast-lockon-of-instant-death. Now, what if we got rid of instas AND cut the lockon speed from this ridiculous targeting range module? Pirates would get some more time to kill their targets, and we wouldnt HAVE to use instas to avoid their "I win" button snipes. Did you use instas or not? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Sigurd Ross	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:16:00 - [16] For clarification, no, I didn't have a freaking insta for this jump, and neither did the interceptor that jumped in just before me. It's kind of a crappy system, isn't it? Instas vs insta-locks. If instas were done away with, there'd be no need for these ridiculous lockon mods. I want to say again, I think piracy is GOOD for this game. Ships need to explode, and people need to die so their implants need to be re-bought, to keep the economy going. There's just got to be better ways to do it than the "sissy escape tactic versus win button snipe" we got not.
Mikal Drey	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:23:00 - [17] hey hey, Great another i got shot nerf it thread. Nothing should be invincible. when the interceptor gets very close to the BS it becomes just as invulnerable the BS just cant kill it. so the bs's are now LOOONG rangers now. what did you expect to happen. + if you wanted to kill a smaller ship but your lock time was an issue the surely the answer is to fit some kind of mod to increase lock time. before you ask i totally hate ganking but thats what this "PvP" has become. If you want an even longer lock time for your inty; Consider halo's. FYI hound with average skills +3x sensors = lock time of 3 seconds, just a shame cruise missiles take forever . . . 'ceptors will lock a BS faster and jam it quicker than the BS can lock still. PvP seems to be in the favor of the agressor - stop being a victim
Benefactor	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:25:00 - [18] As an Interceptor pilot, I state from experience that gate campers can lock on to, and hit me, in virtually no time at all. It doesn't cease to amaze me. What is the purpose of having ~28 signature again? I don't think this is what CCP intended. A year back, small ships were made viable when battleships were once the only viable PVP choice. The pendulum's swinging back again, and I do not think it's intentional. As I heard someone say on the forum before, modules that boost targeting range and targeting speed at the same time are like cargo expanders that also boost velocity
Avon	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:29:00 - [19] The OP is pretty much right though. Sensor boosters should be split in to two modules. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Evelyn Lavi	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:29:00 - [20] Originally by: Mikal Drey hey hey, Great another i got shot nerf it thread. Nothing should be invincible. when the interceptor gets very close to the BS it becomes just as invulnerable the BS just cant kill it. so the bs's are now LOOONG rangers now. what did you expect to happen. + if you wanted to kill a smaller ship but your lock time was an issue the surely the answer is to fit some kind of mod to increase lock time. before you ask i totally hate ganking but thats what this "PvP" has become. If you want an even longer lock time for your inty; Consider halo's. FYI hound with average skills +3x sensors = lock time of 3 seconds, just a shame cruise missiles take forever . . . 'ceptors will lock a BS faster and jam it quicker than the BS can lock still. PvP seems to be in the favor of the agressor - stop being a victim So basically, what you're telling me is either I need to pull a cloaked ship and three friends out of my rear end for every gate camp I anticipate, whenever I want to travel anywhere lower than .5, and counter-gank the campers. Riiiiiiight. It's kind of sad that it's come to this, where "instas" are necessary rather than useful, and it's impossible to even turn around and warp away before being ganked, otherwise.

Prestis	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:30:00 - [21] Not a fan of sniping generally, but the problem with interceptors and other small ships is that the long locking time and the 2-3 second warpout add up to near PvP immunity. Signal boosters are the only solid counter to that right now.
Evelyn Lavi	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:33:00 - [22] Signal boosters, great! But why are the "lock on speed" and the "lock on range" boosts on the same module? I suppose "snipers" are also automatically "quickdraws?" It's so stupid it's hilarious. One should build to kill interceptors, or build for long range sniping, not both at the same time, with no drawbacks.
Plutoinum	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:39:00 - [23] Edited by: Plutoinum on 09/07/2006 11:41:21 Originally by: Benefactor It doesn't cease to amaze me. What is the purpose of having ~28 signature again? At least it's not to be invulnerable. Think with 3 sensor-boosters tech-2, I still need over 3 seconds to lock an interceptor. Without sensor-boosters it takes ages. Some smaller ships can get more than 2000 sensor strength without support and although that it's almost insta-locking, it isn't usually enough to stop a shuttle / ceptor with nanos from warping away at a gate and not enough to lock a covert ops before it cloaks again. (You still have to fly to the covert ops to decloak it, so no chance to get them without a bubble) Btw. as you know yourself, the signature radius is not only there to slow targeting speed down, but to reduce the average damage you take by bigger guns.
Sigurd Ross	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Avon The OP is pretty much right though. Sensor boosters should be split in to two modules. Thanks for the endorsement. I know you guys have a mean streak a mile long, but I also know you've earned your infamy with serious PVP expertise. Sitting around, with boosters on, and pounding F1-F8 isn't my idea of skill, fun, or even a workable PVP mechanic. The only "counter" is a semi-exploit in that "insta" crap that is all but necessary now.
Caleb Paine	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:46:00 - [25] Edited by: Caleb Paine on 09/07/2006 11:46:26 Lemme get this straight, Ceptor doesn't have insta's and (thus?) frantically hits his WMD to make it to the gate... and gets popped. OR he doesn't use his MWD and takes eons to get to the gate and still gets popped. If you don't take the preparation and effort to make/get/buy insta's for 0.0, you get to pay the price. ----------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:49:00 - [26] Originally by: Sigurd Ross Oh, and let me add this: Running blockades is cool. Fighting pirates is fun. This "I win" button crap is what bothers me. What's the counter? The counter is the map and scanner. If there is a pair of Armegeddons, a Tempest, a Megathron and a Blackbird 5 degrees off a gate in a low-sec, with crap sec status, performing the next jump is not advisable. Originally by: Sigurd Ross Super-tiny ship next to me is locked, and explodes, literally before the arrival acceleration kicked in. Oh, and then the pod is hit literally in the next blast, 4 seconds later. Remember that sensor boosters have a stacking penalty. You can't instalock a frig any more. That frig probably dewarped with autopilot active, and activated its MWD on dewarp. Still stationary, its sig radius was boosted to that of a cruiser, thus reducing remaining lock time to a fraction of a second while its transverse remained zero. This, and the fact that the pod was unable to warp out in 4 seconds, indicates that the victim was a n00b and needed to die in order to learn.
Sigurd Ross	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:50:00 - [27] Originally by: Caleb Paine Edited by: Caleb Paine on 09/07/2006 11:46:26 Lemme get this straight, Ceptor doesn't have insta's and (thus?) frantically hits his WMD to make it to the gate... and gets popped. OR he doesn't use his MWD and takes eons to get to the gate and still gets popped. If you don't take the preparation and effort to make/get/buy insta's for 0.0, you get to pay the price. Caleb, you're walking right into my point here. It's all about using instas or being instapopped. What a stupid PvP system. Where'd the old one go? AGAIN, I acknowledge piracy as a viable profession and a good way to keep the economy going. I think most pirates can agree that the glut of instas is not a good trend. I'd be fine if they were done away with altogether... so instant-lock ganks weren't the only way to kill people at gates.
Caleb Paine	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:53:00 - [28] No, that IS EXACTLY the point. EVE is about effort and reward. If you don't want to put in the effort to scout/check out/have a cov ops with you/make or buy BM's/have friendlies in local/be part of the alliance controlling that system (pfew heh) you put yourself in danger and you may possibly pay the price getting killed by someone who DID put in the effort of making BM's/having friends like local/have a very specialised ship. You chose not to be prepared, he did, he won. ----------------- Death smiles at us all, all a man can do is smile back.
Skva	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:55:00 - [29] I only skimmed through this thread, so if I've missed something sorry in advance. Whilst you were warping to the gate, were you not able to use the scanner, and check what was on the gate. I always do that when travelling through a lowsec/0.0 system where I am not alone. Had you done that, you could have panned the camera around to face a planet, and warped to it the second you dropped out of warp. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt the snipers would have been able to fire on you before you hit warp. As for getting past them... Well, you could try to find another route. Or, you could warp back in, hit your mwd and mwd in a direction and keep your transversal very high. Try and get close to the BS, and maybe you'll scare him off. He won't be able to hit you that close. Of course if the BS are positioned so they are also able to cover each other, then that may not work. Your signature is too large! Please resize it according to the forum guidelines. Jacques Archambault
Plutoinum	Posted - 2006.07.09 11:56:00 - [30] Edited by: Plutoinum on 09/07/2006 11:57:00 An alternative would be: Nerf instas, nerf snipers, nerf locking times of ships that aren't meant to be ultra-fast lockers, but give pirates the ability to use fast tacklers in sentry range in low sec. I mean, I see no reason, why flying an interceptor in low sec should be 100% safe. Imho the safest ships should be the covert ops and that shouldn't be 100% safe either.



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