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Bhaal
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Posted - 2006.07.11 14:50:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Bhaal on 11/07/2006 14:51:33
 Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darax Thulain
Huhm, didnt you guys know that knocking snipers out of alignment can be done perfectly with a covops? Thinking -> Nerfing
So, you uncloak your covert in the hope of bumping the sniper - which doesn't always work - and then you get insta-popped.
Seems like a pretty good way to dispose of your expensive ship.
And more expensive cloak...
A Kamikaze action is not a valid counter-tactic IMO...
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Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.07.11 14:55:00 -
[152]
Did we just agree on something Bhaal?
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Bhaal
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Posted - 2006.07.11 14:56:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Avon
Did we just agree on something Bhaal?
What?
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Current Hobby other than EVE
My Hero
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Darax Thulain
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Posted - 2006.07.11 14:59:00 -
[154]
That would be if more snipers cover eachother or the sniper has support, a tempest sitting 160 off a gate using Tremor L would have NO chance in hell at popping a covops sitting at 0m. Ofc other than using drones, and its midslots is in said example only used for sensorboosters and tracking comps. And your gang should be at a planet nearby anyways to ensure a swift warp.
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.07.11 15:14:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Darax Thulain
That would be if more snipers cover eachother or the sniper has support, a tempest sitting 160 off a gate using Tremor L would have NO chance in hell at popping a covops sitting at 0m. Ofc other than using drones, and its midslots is in said example only used for sensorboosters and tracking comps. And your gang should be at a planet nearby anyways to ensure a swift warp.
If you wanted to talk lone snipers you shouldn't have quoted me.
I was clearly talking about fleet action.
(Also, I'll take that bet on your stationary covops - he is toast).
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
ChironV
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Posted - 2006.07.11 15:17:00 -
[156]
Given the state of "super" snipers roaming the byways, instas are not always a sure thing. Two seconds of lag can easily translate to damage into hull.
The only way to ferret them out is to use covert ops to check every insta as you go along scouting before your industrials. Once you discover them you have some options.
Have some escorts? Tackle and gank them.
"Its a good thing" 
________________________________________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion,
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PeeWee Pee
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Posted - 2006.07.11 15:20:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Benefactor
Originally by: urekt
Do you understand word stupid???
every is not stupid...
And like many ppl said before me...
If ceptor pilot dies sniped by BS it deserve for dying.
Autopilot flying in 0.4-0.0 turning mwd when You see red squares is bad mkay?
Oh, the irony of THIS guy calling people stupid.
you be stoopid enough to respond to him. what is more stupid? |
Darax Thulain
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Posted - 2006.07.11 15:33:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Darax Thulain
That would be if more snipers cover eachother or the sniper has support, a tempest sitting 160 off a gate using Tremor L would have NO chance in hell at popping a covops sitting at 0m. Ofc other than using drones, and its midslots is in said example only used for sensorboosters and tracking comps. And your gang should be at a planet nearby anyways to ensure a swift warp.
If you wanted to talk lone snipers you shouldn't have quoted me.
I was clearly talking about fleet action.
(Also, I'll take that bet on your stationary covops - he is toast).
Right, for fleet action I can agree(my bad if I didnt read everything) but thats when you have rich rabid-friends with interceptors and snakesets \o/ which hardly is a good example.
For up close knocking people off alignment with covops, the covops doesnt always die horribly. We've done it several times after all. So saying they always die would be saying that our enemies have no brains or that we use GM h4xx when we actually succeed.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2006.07.11 22:43:00 -
[159]
Allways the same people whining about snipers...
EVE has long range weapons and EVE has close range weapons. Close range weapons do BIG damage, long range weapons do smaller damage. Close range weapons have a good tracking, long range weapons have a bad tracking. So if you died to a sniper, you would also die to a shortrange-fitted ship. This is a fact!
People do often complain about killing snipers is sooooooooooooooooooooo hard. But a single sniper is the BEST target this game offers!!!
A sniper is 150 km away from a gate
--> he cannot jump!
A sniper needs damage mods, tracking comps, sensor boosters
--> he will not be tanked!
A sniper cannot move much since he might come into sentry range or change his firing-angle and gets a bad tracking on a target warping in.
--> he is sitting there like a duck and you aim with you shotgun at him!
So, all in all a sniper is:
NOT TANKED
HE CANNOT JUMP
HE IS OFTEN NOT MOVING
This is what i call a perfect target. That is why TDG snipers ALLWAYS work as team with EW scorps. Ask yourself why? Because sniping is so damn dangerous. Pirate hunters just wait for these idiots sniping without EW backup.
But lets get back to how a sniper is killed:
All you need is a Manticore and a Thorax. If you know where the sniper usually does his destructive work, you have to do a "offgrid-bookmark", this means a bookmark 500-600 km away from the gate. The bookmark must be "offgrid", so you cannot see ships at the gate anymore. Once the sniper is at work you grab your Manticore and warp to this spot - then you approach the gate. When you enter the gate grid, you will get visual on the ebil sniper. So you continue to approach him. Once in scramble range (he still does not know that the most dangerous sniperkiller is 7200 m from him) you unclaok, nearly instalock and put -6 on the ebil sniper while orbiting him, if possible at 7200 m. If he has no very named smartbomb, then he will launch some drones that you have to survive until your corpmate with the Thorax warps to you. If you are smart the Thorax is allready in warp to you before you uncloaked. The rest is a short battle. Sniper with L guns hits $hit, Thorax with blasters rocks. After this you get a killmail for a BS, involved parties: Manticore and Thorax!
Lets now come to sniper teams. Sniperteams are not easy to kill. If you want to kill a sniperteam youŠll have to adapt the small "kill-1-sniper" to a larger concept to kill a whole sniperteam. If you are not able to do so - simply donŠt try it. Better call some pirate hunters that are able to do the job. But please: donŠt come to forums and whine about snipers. If YOU warp to a gate that has 200 kills on the map, if YOU have no instas, if YOU are not well tanked, if YOUR indy has no scout or escort, if YOU hit the mwd straight to the gate or if YOU are too spupid to move transversal to a sniper in your ceptor, then YOU need an update and not the game!
Thank you gentlemen!
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Eralus
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Posted - 2006.07.11 23:43:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Imperial Coercion
Originally by: Ann Mari
If you want to increase your lock range, there has to be a downside.
Yeah, its called no slots for ew/shield tank or anything else for that matter.
That's not a downside. You're 190 km from the gate, there's no reason for any of that. You just sit there shooting at little ships who can't do anything about it and warp away if anything mildly threatening shows up.
EVE is broken. It's not broken because people are getting killed - I'm totally cool with that. It's broken because gate campers don't get killed. They're safe. That's the problem with all these whininggate campers....
They ***** about any change that would make their prey safer, but do it from a position of being entirely safe themelves.
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Eralus
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Posted - 2006.07.11 23:48:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Caleb Paine
Something should be done up to the survival rate of people warping in at 15km from a gate when there's pirates on it. Because as it is right now people will have almost no chance to survive.
I disagree. I think something should be done to lower the survival rate of people who gatecamp. PvP rocks. Let's stop letting "pirates" hide from PvP.
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burek
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Posted - 2006.07.11 23:54:00 -
[162]
Stop it already please! The only reason "camper survivability" as you put it, is so high, is because people choose to come to the forums instead of killing them ingame.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.07.11 23:57:00 -
[163]
Originally by: Avon
When the only viable choice is range, variety goes out of the window.
Yep. But some fairly simple changes - starting with the axe being taken to T2 sniper amo - would work.
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Eralus
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Posted - 2006.07.12 00:18:00 -
[164]
Edited by: Eralus on 12/07/2006 00:21:31
Originally by: burek
Stop it already please! The only reason "camper survivability" as you put it, is so high, is because people choose to come to the forums instead of killing them ingame.
Because there is a huge imbalence between the ease with which gate campers can kill people and with which snipers can be killed.
The gate camper gets a free shot at pretty much anyone coming through that gate. Either they get the kill, or they have to wait for the next guy. They can do this by warping to 170k of any gate in lowsec.
If I want to kill a gatecamper (esp a pair of gate campers), I basically need a small fleet of well-coordinated ships. If I blow it or get unlucky, I'll be losing ships, not the other way around.
That is just plain not balenced. If you can sit there in a ship and take risk-free shots at people coming through the gate, I should be able to configure a ship at take risk-free shots at people camping to take risk-free shots at people coming through gates. And if you have 2 ships, I should be able to do it with 2-3 ships. THAT would be balenced.
It's the lack of balence that allows the gate campers to put in all the equipment they need to insta-snipe someone from 170km out without much additional worry of being blown up for it.
Not that I'm surprised by the anti-whining whining. 'Pirates' have it pretty good, and they don't want to lose it.
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2006.07.12 00:42:00 -
[165]
Quote:
If I want to kill a gatecamper (esp a pair of gate campers), I basically need a small fleet of well-coordinated ships
No, simply no. All you need is a Manticore and a Thorax.
In 0.0 itŠs even easier: you can kill a sniper alone in an interdictor.
You can also jump in with 5 tempests and instopop him. First warp in a tanked hauler to have the sniper "busy". Then jump in the 5 Sniper-Tempests and instapop him.
And you can at any time simply make the sniper flee by jumping in your own sniper-BS (or 2 or 3 or 500 if you are in BOB).
The crap has gone too far. There are tons of ways to nail a sniper and even more important: people that die to snipers did a mistake. It is not possible to snipe a frigate if its well commanded by an experienced pilot. The only shipclass that is really in danger when sniped at are tech I haulers and if you ask me: Haulers should die when fired at. Haulers are soft targets that need escorts and scouts. People flying arround alone in an hauler should go to the chalkboard and write down 100 x:
I SHALL NOT FLY ARROUND IN AN UNESCORTED HAULER
I SHALL NOT FLY ARROUND IN AN UNESCORTED HAULER
...
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Cringeley
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Posted - 2006.07.12 00:49:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Prestis
Not a fan of sniping generally, but the problem with interceptors and other small ships is that the long locking time and the 2-3 second warpout add up to near PvP immunity. Signal boosters are the only solid counter to that right now.
I would be quite happy to choose between range and lock time boosters if it meant a bit of a nerf for ultra-long-range instahit gun snipers. I don't really see why one should be able to use the same module to convert a battleship into both an anti-inty platform and a long-range rapemachine without sacrificing more than a couple of slots. And yes I do use SB IIs on my battleship. This is not just "nerf the other guy" whining, I really think it is objectively a bit of a balance issue.
--------------------------------------------
Thrice is he armed who has his quarrel just,
But four times he who gets his blow in fust. |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.07.12 00:55:00 -
[167]
Originally by: Lifewire
I SHALL NOT FLY ARROUND IN AN UNESCORTED HAULER
Eve axiom #57 - You cannot escort anything.
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Imode
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Posted - 2006.07.12 02:02:00 -
[168]
yes you can.
if you can't escort something, then you aren't doing it right.
____________________________
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Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2006.07.12 02:47:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Infinity Ziona
Battle has been this way forever. Long range combat is advantageous but the setups are fragile. Why cant you use covert ops to set up warp points so you can warp in and own the snipers with your heavily tanked ships and ECM ships?
I'm pretty sure thats what covert ops were intended for, not just scouting or safe travelling.
Mostly because the ships are aligned and at speed so they can warp out straight away.
Even if you could warp in on them, what would you do?
They can lock faster than you (because to get the range they already have reduced lock times).
They have better tracking, because of all the tracking enhancers & computers.
They have lots of damage mods. No need to tank people who can't hit you.
The only advantage you have is that their ships are fragile .. but what does that matter if they just warp off, and then warp back in at range?
The only thing I have to do to a fleet setup BS is change ammo if I engage at closer range - the whole setup is just as good up close.
Long range, slow lock - short range, fast lock.
That would make picking a range and fitting your ship for it more important. Currently you just use one setup, and use the dual bonuses to make it work at any range.
I'd love for the blasterthron to make a comeback in fleet battles - hell, you might even see a Raven in a short-range fleet.
When the only viable choice is range, variety goes out of the window.
Thats not really a problem with sensor boosters then. A better fix would be covert ops interdictors or the ability for interceptors / covert ops to to warp follow targets.
It makes no sense to nerf a module simply because it fails to complement one type of mechanic while complementing many others.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.07.12 02:59:00 -
[170]
If you escort something and you fly right next to it you can't do jack to stop someone from destroying it. The only way to effectively escort something is to make sure every system, and if you run into a bunch of gate snipers there is really next to nothing you can do to get rid of them, even if you spot them before your hauler moves into the system...
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Qing Feng
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Posted - 2006.07.12 03:21:00 -
[171]
So much trouble to trap a sniper, let alone a sniper team, while it's so easy for a sniper (even a lone one) to set up a gankfest.
Range boosted weapons
Sub-second lock times
Both from the same module
Align-to-warp
ftw.
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Infinity Ziona
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Posted - 2006.07.12 03:30:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 12/07/2006 03:32:08
Originally by: Noriath
If you escort something and you fly right next to it you can't do jack to stop someone from destroying it. The only way to effectively escort something is to make sure every system, and if you run into a bunch of gate snipers there is really next to nothing you can do to get rid of them, even if you spot them before your hauler moves into the system...
Once again thats not an issue with sensor boosters. Its an issue with a lack of proper escort methods.
Perhaps if CCP spent a little bit of time doing this sort of stuff instead of adding more useless ships and silly things like boosters, things would be better.
Till someone brings out a game that has smarter developers, you can exploit mark your haulers through sniper areas.
Edit: Although if your using blockade runners (which you should be using to get past blockades) then escorting them by using remote reppers / boosters should do the trick even without exploit marks.
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.07.12 06:28:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Cringeley
Originally by: Prestis
Not a fan of sniping generally, but the problem with interceptors and other small ships is that the long locking time and the 2-3 second warpout add up to near PvP immunity. Signal boosters are the only solid counter to that right now.
I would be quite happy to choose between range and lock time boosters if it meant a bit of a nerf for ultra-long-range instahit gun snipers. I don't really see why one should be able to use the same module to convert a battleship into both an anti-inty platform and a long-range rapemachine without sacrificing more than a couple of slots. And yes I do use SB IIs on my battleship. This is not just "nerf the other guy" whining, I really think it is objectively a bit of a balance issue.
Someone make this guy a dev!
I'm in total agreement here. 
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2006.07.12 08:30:00 -
[174]
Quote:
Eve axiom #57 - You cannot escort anything.
Oh my EVE-god. I just escorted 2 freigthers 28 jumps through 0.0 and if i read this it really makes me sick.
You guys would do everything, lying, begging and even sell your mom just to make the DEVs nerf snipers.
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/
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Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.07.12 08:35:00 -
[175]
Originally by: Lifewire
Quote:
Eve axiom #57 - You cannot escort anything.
Oh my EVE-god. I just escorted 2 freigthers 28 jumps through 0.0 and if i read this it really makes me sick.
You guys would do everything, lying, begging and even sell your mom just to make the DEVs nerf snipers.
Yep, nothing as sensible as throwing out a pointless inflammatory exaggeration to win people over in an argument.
How about offering some solutions of your own? Oh yeah, the status quo benefits you, because sitting around with little blue rings eminating from your ship and mashing F1-F8 on passing ships is the most fun you have in this game... well, for you anyway. Screw everyone else, they're just your content. 
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2006.07.12 08:57:00 -
[176]
Quote:
How about offering some solutions of your own?
Solutions to escort a hauler are well-known in the pvp-corps. How do you think 0.0 corps haul their stuff from and to empire??? Am i your personal trainer or why do you expect me to explain how you succesfully escort a hauler??? Am i known for hauler piloting??? I just can tell you: if you escort it with a Blasterthron, then dont wonder if a sniper destroys your hauler...
Escorting does not mean to warp with the hauler - you have to go ahead, tank the fire and fire back to make the sniper warp away.
The minimum escort is a scout that moves ahead to get recon and evade snipers. If you can, add a sniper-BS to your convoi. It can jump before the hauler does and fire at the pirate sniper to make the pirate warp. Once gate is cleaned, jump the hauler and insta to next gate...an so on.
If a system is camped by 15 pirates you should ask yourself if it should be possible for your hauler to pass this system. The answer is: no! A hauler should not be able to run such a blockade. If a hauler could run through such a blockade then the game would need balancing!
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Avon
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Posted - 2006.07.12 09:14:00 -
[177]
Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2006 09:15:04
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Originally by: Avon
When the only viable choice is range, variety goes out of the window.
Yep. But some fairly simple changes - starting with the axe being taken to T2 sniper amo - would work.
The concept of T2 long range ammo is okay, it could just do with a different penalty.
The problem is really with sensor boosters.
The dual bonus is bad (and I'm afraid that is still true if you knock a third off it Maya).
The volume of space scanned increases as a cube of the radius.
50% more range = 1.5 x 1.5 x 1.5 = 3.375 larger volume.
100% more range = 2 x 2 x 2 = 8 times larger volume.
It should take longer to scan that vastly increased volume, not less time.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Benefactor
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Posted - 2006.07.12 09:14:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Lifewire
Quote:
How about offering some solutions of your own?
Solutions to escort a hauler are well-known in the pvp-corps. How do you think 0.0 corps haul their stuff from and to empire??? Am i your personal trainer or why do you expect me to explain how you succesfully escort a hauler??? Am i known for hauler piloting??? I just can tell you: if you escort it with a Blasterthron, then dont wonder if a sniper destroys your hauler...
Escorting does not mean to warp with the hauler - you have to go ahead, tank the fire and fire back to make the sniper warp away.
The minimum escort is a scout that moves ahead to get recon and evade snipers. If you can, add a sniper-BS to your convoi. It can jump before the hauler does and fire at the pirate sniper to make the pirate warp. Once gate is cleaned, jump the hauler and insta to next gate...an so on.
If a system is camped by 15 pirates you should ask yourself if it should be possible for your hauler to pass this system. The answer is: no! A hauler should not be able to run such a blockade. If a hauler could run through such a blockade then the game would need balancing!
I beg to differ.
When a "tactic" takes nothing more than sitting in one spot and keeping a toggle on, and the "counter" to it involves multiple ships, one equipped with a cloaking device and many more equipped with scramblers, all coordinated to take some asshat who more than likely is loaded with WCSes of his own, OR if the solution is to use some sissy carebear exploit of bookmarks that's been made "legal" because of popularity, then some balancing needs to be done.
I thought "predators" are supposed to chase down their kills, anyway. What's this sitting around crap?
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Lifewire
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Posted - 2006.07.12 09:21:00 -
[179]
Quote:
When a "tactic" takes nothing more than sitting in one spot and keeping a toggle on, and the "counter" to it involves multiple ships, one equipped with a cloaking device and many more equipped with scramblers, all coordinated to take some asshat who more than likely is loaded with WCSes of his own, OR if the solution is to use some sissy carebear exploit of bookmarks that's been made "legal" because of popularity, then some balancing needs to be done.
I thought "predators" are supposed to chase down their kills, anyway. What's this sitting around crap?
This is what you see: the sniper. The logistic work to get a sniper in position is extreme in low sec. To move for a -10.0 character is not easy and you need bookmarks. Usually snipers work as teams of 2-10 players. A lot of efforts to kill some haulers.
Your argue is flawed: i could say, if a trader has nothing else to do than set autopilot then this way to play needs to be nerfed!!! Ok?
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Sigurd Ross
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Posted - 2006.07.12 09:24:00 -
[180]
Again I see this "bookmarks" thing popping up.
Thank goodness it's a known issue and will hopefully be dealt with.
Thank you very much, but lowsec's just fine without -10 gankers camping the gates, which have sentry guns with inexplicably short range. It's like getting mugged across the street from the police station.
If the instas were done with, it might get rid of most of this gate camping grief too.
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