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With all the attention to realism and physics, why this?

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Avon	Posted - 2006.07.13 12:38:00 - [121] Originally by: Rodj Blake I hereby declare this thread derailed! Don't tell them, Sheesh. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.07.13 12:42:00 - [122] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Avon Originally by: Bhaal Either evolution tried many different colors, on converged on the right ones without going through all possible iterations... Or.. .. you are what you eat. Think about it. Mallards don't eat the foliage they are in tone with... What does their food eat? They dive to the bottoms of shallow ponds and strain out plankton, which certainly donÆt eat the grasses that are above the water... Zebras did not evolve the stripes because they eat black & white striped grass. They evolved the stripes specifically to confuse lions while the herd is in motion. Evolution somehow had to know this would confuse the lions sense of sight... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.07.13 12:43:00 - [123] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/07/2006 12:43:51 Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Avon Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Avon Originally by: Bhaal Either evolution tried many different colors, on converged on the right ones without going through all possible iterations... Or.. .. you are what you eat. Think about it. Mallards don't eat the foliage they are in tone with... What does their food eat? They dive to the bottoms of shallow ponds and strain out plankton, which certainly donÆt eat the grasses that are above the water... Zebras did not evolve the stripes because they eat black & white striped grass. They evolved the stripes specifically to confuse lions while the herd is in motion. Evolution somehow had to know this would confuse the lions sense of sight... Evolution knew nothing. It's just that the zebras that were less good at confusing lions got eaten. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.07.13 12:46:00 - [124] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/07/2006 12:43:51 Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Avon Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Avon Originally by: Bhaal Either evolution tried many different colors, on converged on the right ones without going through all possible iterations... Or.. .. you are what you eat. Think about it. Mallards don't eat the foliage they are in tone with... What does their food eat? They dive to the bottoms of shallow ponds and strain out plankton, which certainly donÆt eat the grasses that are above the water... Zebras did not evolve the stripes because they eat black & white striped grass. They evolved the stripes specifically to confuse lions while the herd is in motion. Evolution somehow had to know this would confuse the lions sense of sight... Evolution knew nothing. It's just that the zebras that were less good at confusing lions got eaten. I can't prove that evolution derives it's iterations through the host entities experiences, and you cannot prove that it's totally random. So I guess neither of us truly knows... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Avon	Posted - 2006.07.13 12:47:00 - [125] Edited by: Avon on 13/07/2006 12:48:40 Andrue, the turning moments and required impulses would actually be quite complicated to work out. (Although you are fundamentally correct). However, keeping the moments neutral is quite possible, and that is all that matters. (ie: the thrust provided to the associated mass must provide an equal momentum delta. So, if you slice the ship along the engines, each section would have to accelerate at the same rate. If they do, then when they are connected there will be no turing moment, and so impulse control {varying force over time - pulsing the engines if you like} is not required) The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.07.13 12:52:00 - [126] Edited by: Bhaal on 13/07/2006 12:52:09 LOL at this thread! OMG OMG OMG! Anyways, I'm glad to see that the new Tier 3 BS's seem to be more symmetrical... I've only seen the concept art, is there anything new in that regard? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.07.13 12:54:00 - [127] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 13/07/2006 12:52:09 LOL at this thread! OMG OMG OMG! Anyways, I'm glad to see that the new Tier 3 BS's seem to be more symmetrical... I've only seen the concept art, is there anything new in that regard? The other side of the tier 3 Caldari BS has many antennas. They are hidden in the artwork because of blind spots. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.07.13 12:57:00 - [128] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 13/07/2006 12:52:09 LOL at this thread! OMG OMG OMG! Anyways, I'm glad to see that the new Tier 3 BS's seem to be more symmetrical... I've only seen the concept art, is there anything new in that regard? The other side of the tier 3 Caldari BS has many antennas. They are hidden in the artwork because of blind spots. The Amarr & Minmatar look pretty symmetrical from what I have seen... I absolutely love the Amarr one... Almost wish I could get a race change, along with all my SC & Gunnery skills, lol... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Jenny Spitfire	Posted - 2006.07.13 12:59:00 - [129] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 13/07/2006 12:52:09 LOL at this thread! OMG OMG OMG! Anyways, I'm glad to see that the new Tier 3 BS's seem to be more symmetrical... I've only seen the concept art, is there anything new in that regard? The other side of the tier 3 Caldari BS has many antennas. They are hidden in the artwork because of blind spots. The Amarr & Minmatar look pretty symmetrical from what I have seen... I absolutely love the Amarr one... Almost wish I could get a race change, along with all my SC & Gunnery skills, lol... If the Caldari BS is really that symmetrical, I really like the design. Typical block architecture. Amarr BS is the only ship that really stands among those three. Just nice, big and scary. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:01:00 - [130] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 13/07/2006 12:52:09 LOL at this thread! OMG OMG OMG! Anyways, I'm glad to see that the new Tier 3 BS's seem to be more symmetrical... I've only seen the concept art, is there anything new in that regard? The other side of the tier 3 Caldari BS has many antennas. They are hidden in the artwork because of blind spots. The Amarr & Minmatar look pretty symmetrical from what I have seen... I absolutely love the Amarr one... Almost wish I could get a race change, along with all my SC & Gunnery skills, lol... If the Caldari BS is really that symmetrical, I really like the design. Typical block architecture. Amarr BS is the only ship that really stands among those three. Just nice, big and scary. I like the Amarr one so much I started another character last night specifically to train up for one... Should be rdy in 6 months, lol. I chose this race for Bhaal because I fell in love with the Rifter (the hot ship of that time), lol... Maybe no tthe best way to choose a character race, but... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:01:00 - [131] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/07/2006 13:03:49 Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/07/2006 13:01:48 Originally by: Bhaal I can't prove that evolution derives it's iterations through the host entities experiences, and you cannot prove that it's totally random. So I guess neither of us truly knows... Not totally-random. Neo-Darwinist evolution in a nutshell: First genetic mutation causes an individual to be different from its peers. This is effectively random. Then, the mutant will interact with it's environment. If the mutation offers an advantage, it will typically have more offspring than its peers. If the mutation doesn't offer an advantage, then it will typically have fewer offspring (if it's a seriously bad mutation, the mutant might not even get born). Although random events can get in the way (our mutant gets eaten while still a baby, for example), this is essentially deterministic. Eventually, if it offers a selective advantage, the mutant gene will spread throughout the population because is carriers will on average have more offspring than those members of the species without it. This is also essentially a deterministic process. Eventually, the entire population will have the new gene, and the species will have evolved. Should the original species have two or more distinct populations cut-off from each other, different mutations may prove beneficial to each of them, because they live in different environments. As such, the different populations may evolve in different directions and will eventually become different species. No guiding hand is neccessary through this process of evolution. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:02:00 - [132] Principles relevant to this thread: -Natural contexts tend to select for symmetry in many cases -Eve ships do not use newtonian propulsion (those are exhausts, not thrusters) Corollaries: -Nobody here understands the mechanics of Eve ship design -Apparently, nobody (well, very few people) here has the slightest grasp of evolutionary principles Conclusion: -This thread is silly.
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:04:00 - [133] Originally by: Rodj Blake Edited by: Rodj Blake on 13/07/2006 13:01:48 Originally by: Bhaal I can't prove that evolution derives it's iterations through the host entities experiences, and you cannot prove that it's totally random. So I guess neither of us truly knows... Not totally-random. Neo-Darwinist evolution in a nutshell: First genetic mutation causes an individual to be different from its peers. This is effectively random. Then, the mutant will interact with it's environment. If the mutation offers an advantage, it will typically have more offspring than its peers. If the mutation doesn't offer an advantage, then it will typically have fewer offspring (if it's a seriously bad mutation, the mutant might not even get born). Although random events can get in the way (our mutant gets eaten while still a baby, for example), this is essentially deterministic. Eventually, if it offers a selective advantage, the mutant gene will spread throughout the population because is carriers will on average have more offspring than those members of the species without it. This is also essentially a deterministic process. Eventually, the entire population will have the new gene, and the species will have evolved. Should the original species have two or more distinct populations cut-off from each other, different mutatations may prove beneficial to each of them, because they live in different environments. As such, the different populations may evolve in different directions and will eventually become different species. No guiding hand is neccessary through this process of evolution. I understand, but we both know we do not have all the information need to close the book on evolution. I'm not talking about creationism, that's not my bag... I just don't think the mutations are absolutely random, somehow the host can relay information to create mutations that might create an advantage... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:05:00 - [134] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Principles relevant to this thread: -Natural contexts tend to select for symmetry in many cases -Eve ships do not use newtonian propulsion (those are exhausts, not thrusters) Corollaries: -Nobody here understands the mechanics of Eve ship design -Apparently, nobody (well, very few people) here has the slightest grasp of evolutionary principles Conclusion: -This thread is silly. Then why did you post in such a silly thread? ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Lisa Run	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:05:00 - [135] Edited by: Lisa Run on 13/07/2006 13:08:23 Edited by: Lisa Run on 13/07/2006 13:06:37 @piuro Yes, sorry for getting sligthly off topic, but I'm still under the influence of some introductuary books about complex adaptive systems that I've read some years ago like 'Complexity: Life at the Edge of Chaos' from Roger Lewin about evolution, social systems etc., I've forgotten a lot already .... or ... 'The Quark and the Jaguar: Adventures in the Simple and Complex' from Murray Gell-Mann At that time I've also programmed some Genetic Algorithms, just for fun to see how they work. At some point you just think that 'evolution' in those systems is a logical consequence, it can't be different under these circumstances from a mathematical/scientific viewpoint. But it's always amazing to see the results or the direction it took in nature e.g. the complexity of life. P.S.: To all: Blame the guys here, who started with evolution that I replied to that. We had the talk about asymmetrical design in EVE so often, almost as often as the non-realistic physics. I don't think that anything new will come out of that. The devs stated that they like these asymetrical designs and want to keep them and the physics is like it e.g. for better gameplay. Btw. Too kind here, account just ran out. ___________________________ ! Post under construction !
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:32:00 - [136] Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Joerd Toastius Principles relevant to this thread: -Natural contexts tend to select for symmetry in many cases -Eve ships do not use newtonian propulsion (those are exhausts, not thrusters) Corollaries: -Nobody here understands the mechanics of Eve ship design -Apparently, nobody (well, very few people) here has the slightest grasp of evolutionary principles Conclusion: -This thread is silly. Then why did you post in such a silly thread? I like the sound of my own voice. What's your excuse for molesting this fly-ridden horse carcass?
Avon	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:35:00 - [137] Originally by: Joerd Toastius I like the sound of my own voice. What's your excuse for molesting this fly-ridden horse carcass? You talk out loud when you type? The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:36:00 - [138] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Bhaal Originally by: Joerd Toastius Principles relevant to this thread: -Natural contexts tend to select for symmetry in many cases -Eve ships do not use newtonian propulsion (those are exhausts, not thrusters) Corollaries: -Nobody here understands the mechanics of Eve ship design -Apparently, nobody (well, very few people) here has the slightest grasp of evolutionary principles Conclusion: -This thread is silly. Then why did you post in such a silly thread? I like the sound of my own voice. What's your excuse for molesting this fly-ridden horse carcass? From your post, sounds like you don't like anything about this thread. When I see a thread that does not interest me, I don't post. ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:39:00 - [139] Originally by: Avon Originally by: Joerd Toastius I like the sound of my own voice. What's your excuse for molesting this fly-ridden horse carcass? You talk out loud when you type? Shush. You're ruining the punchline Uh, I mean... "Yes, all the time. Don't you?"
Emmy Marsin	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:41:00 - [140] And to think in EVE an afterburner needs to continually fire to maintain speed. :) In space, with the absence of friction and gravity, you'd actually need another afterburner firing in the opposite direction to slow down.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:42:00 - [141] Originally by: Emmy Marsin And to think in EVE an afterburner needs to continually fire to maintain speed. :) In space, with the absence of friction and gravity, you'd actually need another afterburner firing in the opposite direction to slow down. Non-newtonian propulsion. Yeah, I know. This thread is going nowhere. I'm gonna stop posting before I derail the derailment... Hmm... meta-derailment?
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:45:00 - [142] Originally by: Emmy Marsin And to think in EVE an afterburner needs to continually fire to maintain speed. :) In space, with the absence of friction and gravity, you'd actually need another afterburner firing in the opposite direction to slow down. Or, just flip your ship around 180 degrees and fire your main engine. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Bhaal	Posted - 2006.07.13 13:46:00 - [143] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Emmy Marsin And to think in EVE an afterburner needs to continually fire to maintain speed. :) In space, with the absence of friction and gravity, you'd actually need another afterburner firing in the opposite direction to slow down. Non-newtonian propulsion. Yeah, I know. This thread is going nowhere. I'm gonna stop posting before I derail the derailment... Hmm... meta-derailment? Dude, how many threads actually go somewhere? Either enjoy the ride or don't go on the damn trip... ------------------------------------------------ Current Hobby other than EVE My Hero
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.07.13 14:03:00 - [144] Originally by: Bhaal Edited by: Bhaal on 13/07/2006 13:46:47 Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Emmy Marsin And to think in EVE an afterburner needs to continually fire to maintain speed. :) In space, with the absence of friction and gravity, you'd actually need another afterburner firing in the opposite direction to slow down. Non-newtonian propulsion. Yeah, I know. This thread is going nowhere. I'm gonna stop posting before I derail the derailment... Hmm... meta-derailment? Dude, how many forum threads actually go somewhere? Either enjoy the ride or don't go on the damn trip... Oh, hey, I'm having loads of fun, don't worry :) Just don't want to ruin everyone else's fun, that's all. If you guys want to argue about controlled genetic mutation, who am I to stop you? :P
Trak Cranker	Posted - 2006.07.13 14:11:00 - [145] Edited by: Trak Cranker on 13/07/2006 14:12:10 Hardly molesting to talk about natures preference for symmetry in a thread that talks abouot the displeasing asymmetric appearance of the ships in Eve. And it is fair to talk about a preference in nature for visual symmetry. It IS a factor in mate selection in most races. Yes, its because we are programmed to like it. And why are we that? Probably because its a sign of less complication in the design = more power for less energy and less faulty genes. There are tons of deviations from that, be it in humans or 747s - but that does not rule out the general rule. And yes there are cases where symmetry does not offer the best possible survival. Trees might not be symmetrical - but they try hard to be ordered in order to maximise the absorbing of rays. Which could be a reason for asymetrical designs - even if we think they look bad.
Hllaxiu	Posted - 2006.07.13 14:20:00 - [146] Geez, I can't believe people are arguing about symmetry existing or not existing in nature, thats something that got hammered in to me in my biology courses (university level). --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Stitcher	Posted - 2006.07.13 14:21:00 - [147] You want symmetry? Fly Amarr. I do. ____________________________________________________________ MAY CONTAIN NUTS.
Avon	Posted - 2006.07.13 14:23:00 - [148] Originally by: Hllaxiu Geez, I can't believe people are arguing about symmetry existing or not existing in nature, thats something that got hammered in to me in my biology courses (university level). Nothing in nature has perfect symmetry. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
HairyGary	Posted - 2006.07.13 14:34:00 - [149] Originally by: Baldour Ngarr Originally by: Piuro Theres a larger rocket on the far right of the ship, obviously firing with less than a balanceable amount of thrust. Yes, it would turn. No, it would not. Both rockets are firing in the same direction. You're trying to apply aerodynamics where there's no air. "No air" does not mean "no inertia".
Humble Voh	Posted - 2006.07.13 14:49:00 - [150] Edited by: Humble Voh on 13/07/2006 14:49:16 COMPLETE symmetry is not particularly attractive - it looks unrealistic, for example, when simple videogame characters have it. I think when people talk about evolution, they often fall into a logical trap. I'm not sure what the fancy name for it is, but it's probably a part of the anthropic fallacy. Basically, people assume that any animal they talk about (including us) has evolved to it's most efficient state. But there's no reason to assume this. Maybe the mallard's colours happen randomly due to mutation, partners select them because they notice the brightly coloured ones, and mallards die out someday because they are easy to hunt and pretty enough to be used in art. Debates about evolution ALWAYS end up with someone talking about some trait, such as human eye colour or reproductive behaviour, and talking about why it's useful. Maybe it's not. In short: We, and the rest of the universe, are Unfinished Business. And in terms of the ships in game - some people are talking about aerodynamic behaviour, others are pointing out this is space... but space is NOT a hard vacuum, even between galaxies (this last theoretically of course). Whether the velocity is high or low, eventually drag will become a factor. Last annoying point - why do people who try to be pedantically scientific ALWAYS stick to Newtonian physics? Why not go on about how jump-drives don't make sense? Or that laser power should follow the inverse square law? If you're gonna be pedantic, do it right.

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