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Shaile Kalim
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Posted - 2006.07.13 09:36:00 -
[1]
So... as the subject says, is it even worth starting this game now? I played in the trial like a year ago, and enjoyed it enough to come back now that I'm bored of World of Warcraft. However, I want some honest opinions on the competitiveness of relatively new characters compared to the majority of folks who have been around for 2-4 years. With skill development tied directly to real time, is there any point in even starting this game at this point?
I guess I am wondering how anyone could ever hope to compete with people who have had characters training for years. There's clearly no way to "catch up" in this game... so can someone who's played more of the higher level content let me know to what extent years of extra training do to uneven the playing field?
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Ombey
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Posted - 2006.07.13 09:46:00 -
[2]
You don't need to "catch up" in this game to play effectively. You live and die in this game based on experience, not how many Skill Points you have. You will gain experience very quickly once you get immersed in Eve.
Also, don't forget- for an older player to train a skill level 4 to 5, you could have trained levels 1 to 4. So technically, you *are* catching up, of sorts.
Sure the other players can fly better ships and use better equipment... and 1 on 1, you'd probably lose. But a lot of the PvP in Eve take place with more than just 2 ships, and then tactics/ experience come into play. And the older players lose more ISK as they are using more expensive equipment. Unlike WoW, you do lose stuff when you die.
If PvP isn't your bag, you can still have fun in the Trade side of things, when you can compete with seasoned players quite easily. They will have more capital, but you don't get anything on a plate here. Work hard for it!
And then there's mission running- you don't need to catch up to older players as you are not really competing against them in mission running.
Anyways, I wouldn't worry too much- play, and enjoy and then see if catching up means that much to you after a while.
--
ombeve |
nowaya
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Posted - 2006.07.13 09:51:00 -
[3]
There is no way you will ever ever ever have as many skillpoints as a three year character.
IN 3 months however you can be as good as a three year character in almost any chosen field(Non Capships)
In 6 months you will be fully competative if you train all the required basic skills to lvl 5.
To sum up: If a 3 year player trains frigates to lvl 5 and you train frigates to level 5 then the only difference between you is the 3 year guys experience.
So the answer is NO you will never be as versatile as long term guys in 3 months, but in that time you can be AS GOOD AS one of them in the area you specialise in. In half a year you could be the best interceptor/assualt frig/ hell even cruiser pilot, that eve has ever seen.
Larger ships take larger skills, I think you can probably could the people who are maxed in Dreadnought skill on one hands fingers.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.07.13 09:52:00 -
[4]
The average number of skill points is 7 million.
As if skill points even seriously matter in normal gameplay. They don't, and you're going to be fine. Past a certain point (10-15m skill point), they only let you do more, not do things better. It doesn't matter if you can fly a battleship, a heavy assault ship, and an interceptor, because you can only fly one at a time.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
matoni
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Posted - 2006.07.13 10:21:00 -
[5]
As DS said above, the average player has 7m skillpoints. This implies two things: most active players are fairly new, and old players stop playing. There really aren't that many 2003 players still around. It means of course that if you're patient, you will come to the point where roughly half the players are younger than you. Several players I know who are a year older than me, have even had time off in which they have not trained skills. But then again, skillpoints are not crucial to successful gameplay.
The forums were filled with this debate when I joined up, about 11 months ago, and it certainly didn't deter me from enjoying Eve.
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Darwinia
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Posted - 2006.07.13 10:22:00 -
[6]
Let me put it this way..
I have some skills that will take me 2 months+ to get to level 5 now.
In the time I get that +5%, you can more than 'catch up' in everything I can do in frigates and cruisers..
And I won't be getting any better in flying those.
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I don't believe in sigs. |
R Dan
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Posted - 2006.07.13 10:46:00 -
[7]
Is it worth starting now?- oh yes! :)
people seem to forget or not know that the average EVE Vet (I guess I include myself in that category -33 million skill points) has diversified much more than any new player will.
a couple of reasons:
1) Theres no higher skill rating than 5.
(and as stated above 5 takes longer than several 1 to 4s)
2) There just wernt as many players arround then :P
now why do i mention this? - its because it means that instead of concentrating in fighting or mining or trading etc your average vet will have industrial skills (even though all they really do is shoot)
I'm a poorer example for this than most of "my age" because the corp i joined already had a refiner and a builder (though both mostly wanted to shoot stuff also) so the corp didnt need another one.
3) there wernt as many skills to choose from....(so no real point to frigate 5 etc)
It is true, however, that I can fly Caldari, Gallente and Mimatar Tech 2 ships (all the way up to Command and Recon). I have T2 weaponry for each of those (T2 missiles(not many), T2 hybrids (both types at med sized) and T2 projectiles (arty up to large))
But...even with all that. I'll only be flying 1 ship at a time....meaning that anywhere between a half and three quaters (or more) of my skill point total isnt of use to me. (depending on what I'm flying. Cap ships use more of my skill point total than the frigates that I love do)
Hopefully thats given you an idea of just how possible it is to "catch" me up.
-granted (I hope) I know what I'm doing more that a new player...but I guess we'll see :P
I will save you, but make sure you bring beer - Wrangler
and cAKe - Imaran
I thought it was bREe, omgi'mgivingawaymodroomsecwetsftl - Cortes
when come back ... bring PIE. Me like PIE. -Capsicum |
Stylom
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Posted - 2006.07.13 10:52:00 -
[8]
I've recently returned to eve after not playing for just over a year. Most of my old corp mates that started playing Eve about the same time I did now have about 25-30m skills points. With a year off I've only got 15m (you earn roughly a million skill points a month). Does this difference mean that I am somehowworse than my mates that didn't stop playing, of course not.
You have to rememeber there are no two charecters with exactly the same skill set in the whole of eve. The game is so vast and unlimited that it allows people to go down countless paths. This means that you can start the game, take advice from older players and within a really short period of time be a very valued member of a corporation.
I would also say that newer players that learn from older players mistakes really do 'catch up'. Like the vast majority of players I often look in my charecter sheet and wonder why I spent a month training skills I rarely seem to use. Think long term, seek advice and don't get distrated from what you want to achieve and in relative value of skill points you'll be flying - the point around only being able to fly one ship at a time earlier in this thred is a very salient point indeed
Most of all just start playing - you won't regret it
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Shaile Kalim
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Posted - 2006.07.13 11:14:00 -
[9]
Thanks a bunch folks. I appreciate the honest responses. It is a bit relieving to know personal skill plays into things a lot more than simple training time invested at some point.
Now I just have to remember how to play and remember how I was planning my character haha. Luckily when I was on my trial ages ago I was sort of planning for the long run anyways, so most of what I bothered training at the time were the learning skills. (That might have been why I got bored actually... as I recall it got sort of boring not getting any new "useful" skills early on.) However, after logging in to my old account and finding most of my learning skills up to level 4 already, I think I am relatively well situated to start training useful stuff. As I recall I got up to being able to fly a Punisher and then just only trained learning skills for the last 10 days or so of my trial haha.
Anyways, thanks for the helpful comments. And if anyone has any suggestions on where to focus for a PVP character I'm all ears. I believe I was originally planning this toon to be more of an up close combat pilot anyways. Missiles aren't really my style. Any thoughts are welcome and appreciated.
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F'nog
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Posted - 2006.07.13 11:22:00 -
[10]
You could ask the same question of any MMOG that isn't brand new. So what's the point asking it?
 Originally by: Panzer Goddess
I podded wrangler, and all I got was this lousy forumban.
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.13 11:23:00 -
[11]
Do skill points matter? Hell yes. Contrary to popular belief, when you encounter someone in a HAC or a BS or even a T1 Cruiser with T2 guns, and the best you can field with your skills is a T1 Cruiser with T1 fitting, that is down to skill points, not experience.
But, do you have to match their skillpoints to be able to match their equipment? Not by a long shot.
First, for any given skill, Level 5 is the cap.
Second, training times go up exponentially, so Level 5's take much much longer than the others will no increase in the benefit, and have most skill points associated with this same benefit too, so you literally can 'catch up' a lot of the way.
Third, you can be 'just plain better' than someone at a given thing with way less skill points.
Fourth, in any given engagment, some or even most of your skill points aren't relevant anyway.
And, will you only ever encounter 1yr+ old players? No.
And keep in mind the benefits. For example you have a lot more to look forward to than the older players did, with the advantage of being able to plan for it from the start.
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Always Up To SomethingÖ
One of us is really thick, and I hope its you - Kalaan Oratay |
Ishida Akiko
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Posted - 2006.07.13 11:35:00 -
[12]
No, it isn't. 
---
Cool, now go away. |
BoinKlasik
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Posted - 2006.07.13 12:41:00 -
[13]
Edited by: BoinKlasik on 13/07/2006 12:41:10
Originally by: Ombey
*stuff*
dude, that sig is sexy 
Originally by: Ishida Akiko
No, it isn't.
says the new bloodline achura 
*doh, I broke my edited sig :/* *cries*
this signature was lacking pink, I'll provide it for you. There. Looks better doesn't it? -Eris
Fixed it for you. Oh, btw, yarr!  ~kieron
Didn't I tell you? The damsel moved in with me, we're having a great time. - Wrangler
The damsel may not be distressed any more, but how many times does the informant have to be silenced before he gets the message? - Cortes
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Pesky LaRue
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Posted - 2006.07.13 13:27:00 -
[14]
Originally by: F'nog
You could ask the same question of any MMOG that isn't brand new. So what's the point asking it?
there's a big difference between being level 1 in (say) WoW and then being able to grind to 60 in a month or two and coming into Eve where some people have been here for years and have millions more skillpoints than a new player. now, as others have said, it's not all about the raw number of skill points, but it was a valid question nonetheless.
This message came from the Minmatar Messiah, accept no imitations
Pesky LaRue, Minmatar Messiah
Bringing Salvation To Your System Soon!
++ PRAY FOR PESKY ++ |
Ishida Akiko
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Posted - 2006.07.13 14:12:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Ishida Akiko
No, it isn't.
says the new bloodline achura
That's the irony darling. 
---
Cool, now go away. |
mjolnir feaw
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Posted - 2006.07.13 14:16:00 -
[16]
It is a fact that a vet sniping with T2 guns & ammo on a BS plays in a different league.
However, I've been in eve for nearly 6 months now. And I didn't see a lot of T2 ships (and they were all inties), and I didn't see that much BS indeed... and no capital ships at all. I'd bet +95% of the ship I've seen used T1 equipment.
My point is: There's a lot of non-vet players around to play with & to team with.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.07.13 14:23:00 -
[17]
Originally by: mjolnir feaw
It is a fact that a vet sniping with T2 guns & ammo on a BS plays in a different league.
But such a ship is extremely specialized, and useless in the vast majority of situations.
A few frigates can easily kill a T2 sniping battleship if they use a covops to get close.
I know of an armageddon that was killed by a single inty because of this.
--Proud member of the [23]--
-WTS Nanotransistors, Heavy Electron II, 100mn AB II- |
Sever Aldaria
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Posted - 2006.07.13 14:58:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Sever Aldaria on 13/07/2006 15:00:53
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Do skill points matter? Hell yes. Contrary to popular belief, when you encounter someone in a HAC or a BS or even a T1 Cruiser with T2 guns, and the best you can field with your skills is a T1 Cruiser with T1 fitting, that is down to skill points, not experience.
Skillpoints do not determine a fight more than player skill. What skill points do for you is give you more options and a slight edge but engagements are determined more by the circumstances and the decisions made by the combatants. We've prooved time and time again that you don't need tons of skillpoints to compete with someone who's been training for 3 years for instance. Thats what makes EVE different than WoW. Whether our targets have been alive for 6 months or 3 years makes no difference to us.
Following your example, one difference between the 6 month old player and the 3 year old player is that perhaps the 3 year old player could be flying a vagabond whereas the 3 month old could be flying a stabber. In this case, having more skillpoints gives you another option that the stabber pilot does not have, which is the option of greater risk of flying an expensive ship and losing it .
However, choosing to fly a t1 cruiser vs. a t2 cruiser is a tactical decision and is not the only option
Tactics > Skillpoints
EDIT:
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: mjolnir feaw
It is a fact that a vet sniping with T2 guns & ammo on a BS plays in a different league.
But such a ship is extremely specialized, and useless in the vast majority of situations.
A few frigates can easily kill a T2 sniping battleship if they use a covops to get close.
qft
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BoinKlasik
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Posted - 2006.07.13 15:00:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ishida Akiko
Originally by: Ishida Akiko
No, it isn't.
says the new bloodline achura
That's the irony darling.
thats why i quoted it sweety
*doh, I broke my edited sig :/* *cries*
this signature was lacking pink, I'll provide it for you. There. Looks better doesn't it? -Eris
Fixed it for you. Oh, btw, yarr! ~kieron
Didn't I tell you? The damsel moved in with me, we're having a great time. - Wrangler
The damsel may not be distressed any more, but how many times does the informant have to be silenced before he gets the message? - Cortes
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DarkElf
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Posted - 2006.07.13 16:02:00 -
[20]
Edited by: DarkElf on 13/07/2006 16:02:22
Originally by: matoni
There really aren't that many 2003 players still around.
But seriously though it's like what most ppl have said. I know many ppl like myself with 25mil+ skill points and i know many with between 5-10mil and i have seen the less sp pvp'ers perform in pvp in such a way that would put some 2003 players to shame. If you want to pvp then the best thing to do is pick a race/ship/weapon type that you like the sounds of and SPECIALISE. with 4mil SP you can be a very good assault frig pilot which takes no time to get in the grand scheme of things. Another guy really hit it on the head by saying yeah ok i might be able to fly loads of different ships but i can only fly 1 at a time.
In short, yes it's worth starting now cos it's a kickass game and the sooner you start, the sooner you can start having fun.
DE
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Rodge
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Posted - 2006.07.13 17:37:00 -
[21]
As people above say, vets don't use anywhere near their total SPs at any one time.
I've been playing for a while (start of 2004) and I have a few 35m+ SP characters. Yet most are a bit "Jack of all trades". For example, Rodge has Caldari BS 5, yet never flies Caldari BSs. 2m "wasted" SPs right there.
Yet recently, I started a new character. I know that he'll never have as many SPs as my other characters, but he'll eventually be as good, if not better in some areas of the game. He's got 6m SPs at the minute, and gaining more every day
So personally, I'd say there's definitely a point to starting the game now. I don't think there's ever been a point where it's not been a good time to start.
Sig inappropriate-not eve related -Abdalion
[ 2005.04.17 00:34:30 ] Nagilam > u better leave Rodge, u will not gank any1 else 2nite......
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Gadfly Hawke
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Posted - 2006.07.13 17:53:00 -
[22]
Unless you started a few minutes ago, you're already older than some players.
G-Tek is recruiting |
Ediot
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Posted - 2006.07.13 17:58:00 -
[23]
The answer to your question depends on what you want from the game.
PvP?
PvE?
Trade?
Mining?
Manufacturing?
You can be cannon fodder in PvP instantly; if you want to do other things the answer changes.
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KAIZOKU SAMURAI
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Posted - 2006.07.14 00:22:00 -
[24]
Is it worth it to start now? Let me put it this way:
Even some of the "older" folks are creating new characters- taking advantage of a new bloodline, just trying something different... ect. Hell, I JUST started a new character so I can have a better portrait and a cooler name. Does it worry me? Hell no.
Eve is a great game for doing what YOU want to do, as opposed to the game itself leading your around by a leash. You can be productive from Day 1 and as popular or infamous as you like inside a year, as opposed to other games that keep you "Cookie Cutter" for as long as you play.
Give it a try.
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Shaile Kalim
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Posted - 2006.07.14 00:46:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Pesky LaRue
Originally by: F'nog
You could ask the same question of any MMOG that isn't brand new. So what's the point asking it?
there's a big difference between being level 1 in (say) WoW and then being able to grind to 60 in a month or two and coming into Eve where some people have been here for years and have millions more skillpoints than a new player. now, as others have said, it's not all about the raw number of skill points, but it was a valid question nonetheless.
Thanks for the support. As an ex-WoW player I know it's very possible to "catch up". I was in the best raiding guild on my server for a year and a half before I got bored, and I watched soooo many people come and go from our guild in that time. By the time I got bored and resigned, there were only 2 people in my whole guild who were still playing from when it was created. So yes, in other games you can catch up.
However, as everyone has said, it is nice to know that catching up isn't quite as necessary to be successful in this game.
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Benglada
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Posted - 2006.07.14 01:39:00 -
[26]
iv got about 6.2m sp (just over six months training) And iv specilized , dont feel even the tiniest dis advantages. BRRIIIIIINGG ITTTTT OOONNNNN
---------------------------
Originally by: Wrangler
Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote.. 
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Waut
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Posted - 2006.07.14 06:35:00 -
[27]
I recently got my ass kicked in a friendly 1 vs 1 frigate fight, even tough I had 15 million more sp's and near max skills needed for that frigate. I lost due overconfidence, wrong tactics and better setup from the other guy
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Crumplecorn
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Posted - 2006.07.14 07:57:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sever Aldaria
stuff ending in....
Tactics > Skillpoints
In my experience (and this is just my experience, but some other people are going to have the same experience) every available target has been flying a BS or T2 cruiser or been in a group, so the only 'tactic' available is always to retreat.
And if you count my retreating or not attacking in the first place as a victory for them, they win due to superior skill points.
When I have more skill points and can fly around in bigger and/or better ships, then when I meet these same people I'll be able to take them on and then player skill will come into play.
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Always Up To SomethingÖ
One of us is really thick, and I hope its you - Kalaan Oratay |
LING PO
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Posted - 2006.07.14 09:14:00 -
[29]
Edited by: LING PO on 14/07/2006 09:14:23
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Vladimir Ilych
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Posted - 2006.07.14 11:09:00 -
[30]
Is it worth starting now?
Answer is yes.
Reason is average length of time players stay in Eve is seven months. Stay longer than that and you will have move SP's than the avergae player.
What you find at six / seven months is you hit the "what do I do now" wall. People either get bored and chuck it in or find some very long term goals or ambition.
True you will never get as many SP's as the forum addicts but you will find that ship setup is King and the device that can level the paying field.
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