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EVE Superhighways: The Saga Continues

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Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:27:00 - [1] Edited by: Cao Cao on 02/10/2003 22:45:54 Ok, a lot has been said about this topic. Most recently, TomB commented in the CSM meeting log: Quote: [ 2003.10.01 23:00:45 ] Jash Illian > Is anything planned to restrict 'Highway' access to smaller ships, such as shuttles, to counter the negative effects the highways are having on the market? (homogenization of market prices, the limited demand across multiple regions now easily accessible by the same manufacturers, the trade market being cornered by fewer individuals due to far less travel time). [...] [ 2003.10.01 23:02:49 ] TomB > Ok, yes we have plans for something like that [ 2003.10.01 23:03:10 ] TomB > But not really restricting specific ships for it [ 2003.10.01 23:03:26 ] TomB > But rather toll players for using them, based on mass of the ship. [ 2003.10.01 23:03:56 ] Jash Illian > a LARGE toll I hope, especially for industrials [ 2003.10.01 23:04:02 ] TomB > The highway jumps will rather be something you use if you are in a very big hurry and want to loose some money [ 2003.10.01 23:04:05 ] TomB > Yes One thing is for certain: the superhighway system in EVE is doing a lot to ruin the unique features of the game, and especially the market. THE PROBLEM: Every system in empire space in EVE's vast universe is now within about 10-15 jumps away from wherever you may be located. Caldari, Minmatar, Amarr, and Gallente space are all 2 jumps from each other. In any other game, this would not be a problem, it would be a blissful convenience. However, EVE isn't "any other game." EVE relies on a market mechanism that is based on local regions having different supplies and demands. In Amarr space, you can buy the blueprints for Amarr ships. Amarr pirates drop lasers and frequency crystals. The high-level Amarr pirates drop unique, rare loot drop specific to the Amarr race. Same goes for Caladari, Minmatar, and Gallente regions and pirates. This creates a local supply of these goods, and hence low prices in the regions where these items drop. Prices will naturally be higher in regions that do not have a natural supply of these items (heavy modulated beams and/or Maller ships in Caldari space, for example). The superhighways have all but obliterated these regional differences. Two specific problems are created by this: (a) rare loot from each empire is now only a hop, skip, and a jump from every other empire, effectively eliminating any sense of regional supply or demand for these items. (b) manufacturers can now locate themselves 2 jumps from systems in every empire, and no more than 5-8 jumps from nearly every region in empire space. This permits any one producer to sell HIS ships in ALL of these regions, thereby artificially inflating supply and deflating prices. THE SOLUTION: My suggestion is to limit highway access to SHUTTLES ONLY, and to eliminate the cargohold of shuttles. At the same time, the speed of shuttles could be increased to 1,000 m/s. Shuttles and the highways would then be a mode of fast, effective PERSONAL transportation that would allow people to travel quickly across the EVE universe quickly and effectively, all the while insulating the marketplace from the damaging effects outlined above. Individuals and corporations would be able to participate in events by traveling to the destination in a shuttle, and purchasing a ship on-site. A similar analogy would be taking an airplane from New York to California, and then renting/buying a car at your destination. If you want to use your own car, you gotta spend a lot more time traveling. To reiterate: although I think removing the highways altogether is the BEST result, barring that, limiting them to shuttles and eliminating shuttle cargohold (essential to protect the regional supplies and demands of blueprints and items made from them) is the best alternative. Travel convenience and market integrity are both preserved by this solution.
Halo Jones	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:57:00 - [2] Are you allowed in Empire Spcae, or do u have to send an alt? Oberon Incorporated.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.02 21:59:00 - [3] I think the toll will mean nothing to the market. The damage has been done. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
dalman	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:03:00 - [4] Agreed, the highways are bad. Something has to be done. Cao Cao is spot on regarding the problem. M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
agrizla	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:04:00 - [5] Heh - want to know something funny? I was using my chars yesterday to check the market out (looking for a ship at a certain price) and happened to look at the price of megabeam/pulse lasers. Domain has the highest prices of any region I visited for large lasers We're not just talking a small amount either - more like 30-40% more. I agree about the highways, but I just found this bizarre to say the least. Looking at the history graphs it seems they've always been that way.
Fang	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:04:00 - [6] The orginal poster has been harping on about the damned 'super highway' for months. From my memory of his orginal post he simply wants these places made 0.0 sec so he can pirate there. I would say there is a hidden agenda with this post.
Dixie Flatline	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:05:00 - [7] Very good post. I support your suggestions. -- Morkt Drak: "I go afk and upon return find my scorpion having the *** shot out of it by Biomass Cartel.. scorpion blows up but i escape in my pod.*"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:09:00 - [8] Quote: Heh - want to know something funny? I was using my chars yesterday to check the market out (looking for a ship at a certain price) and happened to look at the price of megabeam/pulse lasers. Domain has the highest prices of any region I visited for large lasers We're not just talking a small amount either - more like 30-40% more. I agree about the highways, but I just found this bizarre to say the least. Looking at the history graphs it seems they've always been that way. Depends on who's watching the markets and how much effort they put into it. Trust me when I say you don't want Relic setting the prices on items outside Heimatar if you can help it. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Astaroth	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:11:00 - [9] ah but this should protect tech 2 items :D
Pirindolo	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:13:00 - [10] Edited by: Pirindolo on 02/10/2003 22:15:33 This is ridiculous. Remember the beginnings of eve. Every people complaining because of the long trips: 70% of the time you were playing was spent traveling. Weak memory. BTW: I cannot afford a new ship everytime I go to any place.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:16:00 - [11] Quote: This is ridiculous. Remember the beginnings of eve. Every people complaining because of the long trips: 70% of the time you were playing was spent traveling. Weak memory. During the recent highway outages, I hand plotted a course from Hulm to Pashanai, avoiding Pator, Yulai and Amarr. It can be done and those who want to put in the effort will do it. Or pay others to do it for them. Or pay the fees to fly through the highways. Don't like it? Stay in your region. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
SS Vegito	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:17:00 - [12] Yeah weak memory. I liked it better when it took forever to get places and not everyone had a battleship.
Chucky	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:22:00 - [13] Gee, more extortion out of the EVE system. What will they think of next? Pay to isk to dock?, pay isk to use warp engines?, I KNOW! HOW ABOUT A TAX ON PIRATING!!!! ... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture.
MrPops	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:23:00 - [14] Just like I predicted. The DEVS will not remove the highways or restrict access to only shuttles. They were extreme solutions in the first place. There are other alternatives to the market/highway problem and I'm sure the DEVS/community will be looking at the issue and have further discussions. "The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is." Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:26:00 - [15] Quote: Gee, more extortion out of the EVE system. What will they think of next? Pay to isk to dock?, pay isk to use warp engines?, I KNOW! HOW ABOUT A TAX ON PIRATING!!!! Actually....stations are perfectly capable of charging you a docking fee. Just at the moment, the fees are set to 0. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
agrizla	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:30:00 - [16] Quote: Depends on who's watching the markets and how much effort they put into it. Trust me when I say you don't want Relic setting the prices on items outside Heimatar if you can help it. Heh - I'm sure However it seems prices of common items (or what should be common items in Amarrian space) are significantly higher than they are in other regions. Hell you can buy any sort of laser cheaper in Gallente space
Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:43:00 - [17] Quote: The orginal poster has been harping on about the damned 'super highway' for months. From my memory of his orginal post he simply wants these places made 0.0 sec so he can pirate there. I would say there is a hidden agenda with this post. Considering you are wrong in every respect, I don't see why your trolling reply deserves an answer. But, since an unanswered accusation is an accusation admitted, here goes. There is no "hidden agenda" here. When I stole this 'solution' from somebody a month or so ago, it was because it is the best way to fix the problem. Want fast travel? Hop in your shuttle and you got it. You just won't be able to cart all your baggage with you, thereby disrupting the markets. If you want to compete economically in other regions, you will have to take the long way. It has nothing to do with piracy, as piracy in empire space is virtually dead anyway. It has to do with the health of the game. Much of the intrigue about EVE (for me at least) in the beginning was because of the vastness of the gaming world. A RL female friend of mine was DETERMINED to be Amarr and had to spend FOUR HOURS traveling to apply to and get accepted to the corporation I began in. Four hours game time! Wow --- that means truly unique, distinct gaming environments in each empire. The empires would have their own "feel" and develop their own unique communities. You can certainly get along JUST FINE with the commodities available in one empire only. Other empire's goods would be a luxury delivered to you by dedicated traders who want to spend the time and risk to go from one empire to the other. But NO... so many crybabies had to come here whining and complaining because they HAD to have EVERYTHING in the game at their fingertips. There is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON that you need to ever go more than 10 jumps to acquire anything, even without the superhighways. There are people who base their EVE careers on trading in rare goods and they will bring you the items you want. If you are one who says you ABSOLUTELY MUST be able to travel from New Caldari to Amarr every day twice a day, you are just a sniveling carebear who can't deal with the fact that you shouldn't be able to do everything in this game all by yourself.
dalman	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:53:00 - [18] Quote: Gee, more extortion out of the EVE system. What will they think of next? Pay to isk to dock? Quote: It makes perfect sence that using a station or jumpgate costs you money if you're not the owner of it. And I think the mechanics for this is ingame, just set to zero atm. Complaining about long travels? Hell no. I shipped all my stuff from the most north of EVE all the way down to Stain without any highways. M.I.A. since 2004-07-30
Pirindolo	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:53:00 - [19] Edited by: Pirindolo on 02/10/2003 22:54:18 I think that if more than 30% of the time I am playing has to be jumping and approaching stargates, something is wrong. Each member of a small corp and freelancers are forced to travel very often. Don't make it more boring than it is already. Did I say 30%? Maybe 50% would be better.
Chucky	Posted - 2003.10.02 22:58:00 - [20] All this is about is giving Pirates more chances to hit AFK indys like the good old days. Pirates have become the worst of the Carebears, go figure ... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture.
Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.02 23:03:00 - [21] Quote: Edited by: Pirindolo on 02/10/2003 22:54:18 I think that if more than 30% of the time I am playing has to be jumping and approaching stargates, something is wrong. Each member of a small corp and freelancers are forced to travel very often. Don't make it more boring than it is already. Did I say 30%? Maybe 50% would be better. If this isn't your style of play, then you need to find a different profession. Ask Techell, they are (one of) the richest corps in the game and they simply buy all their minerals. If they didn't deliver their ships, I'm sure they would hardly have to travel at all.
Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.02 23:06:00 - [22] Quote: All this is about is giving Pirates more chances to hit AFK indys like the good old days. Pirates have become the worst of the Carebears, go figure FFS Chucky what the hell, I have said THIS IS NOT ABOUT PIRACY. Piracy in empire space is all but dead unless you are Space Invaders . Anyway, there is no 0.0 between empires, and my corporation is based way out in 0.0 anyway. How the hell do you figure this is about me wanting to kill people between the caldari empire and amarr? AS AN ASIDE... Have you ever ventured off the "highway systems"? Have you noticed that on the highways there are like 70 people in each system, but you go 2 jumps off the highway and there is NOBODY there? Literally, NOBODY. It's eerie how ghostlike it is as soon as you venture off the highways. I remember back in the day each region would have a fairly even population distribution, each system would have its locals. Just doesn't happen anymore.
Aissa	Posted - 2003.10.02 23:31:00 - [23] You are confusing a cause for an effect. See full explanation in this thread. ~Aissa Nomad, Dictionary and Encyclopedia of The Regulators
Chucky	Posted - 2003.10.02 23:44:00 - [24] Dude, you would bother posting if it wasn't about piracy. It's not about the market because having the Highway gates means having 12 times the possible customers. And don't even mention techell, they can't can't go anywhere. ... you will see more and more marketing which in turn will bring you more players to torture.
Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.03 02:28:00 - [25] Quote: Dude, you would bother posting if it wasn't about piracy. It's not about the market because having the Highway gates means having 12 times the possible customers. And don't even mention techell, they can't can't go anywhere. 12 times the number of customers for any single manufacturer --- which means 12 times the amount of competition for every manufacturer. Which kills prices, especially if ONE person decides to totally kill the price on goods in all the regions at once. Which they can only do due to the highways.
Fang	Posted - 2003.10.03 02:56:00 - [26] Cao Cao A well reasoned agruement regarding the Superhighways and reply to my post (if a little wordy) ... I think you just need cut back on your personal insults a little. Other than that I do remember the long hours of travel to reach places of interest and do agree they created atmosphere. I doubt wether removing the superhighway is going to fix the market. Its already a basket case. Fang the Wise Old Owl
Marcus Grisbius	Posted - 2003.10.03 03:09:00 - [27] Cao Cao, Jash, Josh and I have been saying the same thing for a long time. Is it a piracy thing? NO! All 4 of us do different things ingame but we all see the negative effects of the highways. This superhighway shrunk the HUGE Eve universe. I remember life before the highway, it was actually cool. I remember flying 30 jumps for my vexor. People actually dispersed evenly. Now you have everyone in 5 different systems. Now you have the problem of mega roids consuming a bunch of systems, lack of market differentiation, market saturation, etc. It should not be that a Moa can be sold for cheaper on the market in the middle Amarr space than in the heart of the Caldari Empire. There should be a reason you pick your character. What empire you live in and came from should matter more than just the char traits you have. You should learn to operate out of that region. It makes the world bigger and you can adapt to work in your region rather than the entire universe. If you are big enough, then you should be able to work the whole universe. I'll stop now, I've posted the same thought too many times. GET RID OF THE HIGHWAYS AND BRING ON INTERBUS! Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2003.10.03 03:38:00 - [28] Edited by: MOOstradamus on 03/10/2003 03:47:37 Quote: Have you ever ventured off the "highway systems"? Have you noticed that on the highways there are like 70 people in each system, but you go 2 jumps off the highway and there is NOBODY there? Literally, NOBODY. It's eerie how ghostlike it is as soon as you venture off the highways. I remember back in the day each region would have a fairly even population distribution, each system would have its locals. Firstly that's absolute nonsense and secondly there was an even distribution of players back then because of numerous factors one of which being Ore/Asteroid distribution. No-one is falling for this false concern for the economy line - as we all know you just want your travel bottlenecks back to make trader hijacking (pirating) easier. Although Tolls would affect me greatly I have been calling for them a lot longer than most of you. So I welcome their introduction hopefully to coincide with the implementation of pilots with negative standings being refused docking permission at faction stations. Just imagine an enemy of the Minmatar Republic not being allowed to browse/interact with the markets at ZS, CCI or FE installations - F%$&ING JOYFUL & TRIUMPHANT !! Now please just go back to PvP/Griefing outside of Empire Space ... EDIT: I regularly make 20-30 jump trips and that's via the Highway Gates yet still within one tiny corner of the EVE Universe. MOOrovingian "Following & supporting EVE (since Jan 2001) is like wiping your arse with sandpaper."
The Wretch	Posted - 2003.10.03 03:59:00 - [29] "All this is about is giving Pirates more chances to hit AFK indys like the good old days. Pirates have become the worst of the Carebears, go figure" It has simply become too easy. You just pointed that one out yourself - afk indys. The Wretch Cyberdyne Systems CEO
Zinke	Posted - 2003.10.03 04:01:00 - [30] I love highways. While ago i stoped playing eve for a while because of long travel times and inability to just go around exploring. If yu think that removal of highway is to fix issues with market they you are sadly mistaken. It will have no effect on markets as a big corporation will most certainly have their presence in every region of empire space anyway. Plus add to that human nature to undercut other people's prices and to treat minerals as free (if they mine them).

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