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Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.15 00:14:00 -
[61]
ccp has their mind of fleet warfare miethinks...
--
Talking in circles is more dizzying than walking in them... tralala
Character For Sale For Isk
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Xaen
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 00:34:00 -
[62]
Basically what I seem to be hearing is:
 Quote:
Jamming takes away my solo pwnmobile because I don't account for ECM. So please nerf jamming so my solo pwnmobile will be 100% unstoppable again.
Just reading between the lines here.
And yes, I know, I'm an abrasive bastard.
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Theists should not try to use logic to prove their gods exist; it makes as much sense as spiders playing with matches. |
Deja Thoris
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:30:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 14/07/2006 18:07:22
"OMG I CANT GANK ENOUGH NUBS NERF TEH ECM!!"
Thats basically what I'm getting out of this thread. I'm almost completely happy with the state of ECM today. ECM pilots have weak armor, and cant expect to kill anything because their damage sucks so bad. Expecting to win 4v1 against a gang of pilots who have built their ships to counter your setup is just asking to lose a HAC. No one soloes with an ECM ship. It almost always loses to enemy drones.
Maybe I can point out a few things:
ECM ships do crap for dammage. A well tanked HAC should be able to both outrun and outtank 4 blackbirds, so I'm assuming you were up against 4 scorps? In which case  dont expect to win 4v1 against any battleship. Hell it took me 5 minutes to kill a helios in a BB. My BB nearly lost to a MINING BARGE. So it sounds to me like your setup sucked if it couldnt tank the damage output of 4 mining barges.
ECMs fail a lot when your enemy has an ECCM on. Maybe you need to fit one?
ECM ships are ridiculously unarmored, bring a friend with you and its over.
ECM ships have very little defence against drones.
Should a HAC really be able to expect to win 4v1 all the time?
The only caveat I can think of is groups of pilots who use a single multispectral each in their setup. But you said ECM was the primary weapon so I'm assuming not.
ECM is pretty broken. I've been on the giving end of this and the receiving end.
I've turned a 2v2 hac fight where I was in structure to a 2-0 win with one multispec.
Who cares how weak a scorp is physically? I'll bet my ship on permajamming 2 other bs's and perhaps 3 for the duration of a fight with my skills. You don't need to tank if you don't take damage.
Perhaps Dumas didnt use the best example but ECM sure could use some big time tweaking imo (and I have way over 3 mill SP invested in electronics so I should be asking for it to be boosted )
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Scoundrelus
The Black Fleet
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:47:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Dumus
Just remove it from the game completly. It sucks.
/emote whine and gnashing of teeth. Yes I just lost a HAC to 4 pilots wielding ECM as thier primary weapon and I did'nt like it.
I feel your pain. I lost a HAC to ECM once, I just had to sit there and die. After that I threw out my 'fairplay' and started being an ECM ***** too. As I always say, You can't be a nice guy in a *****es world. What proof that ECM is overpowered? My Maller, along with a thorax and another maller took down the Zealot of a 2004 player and it was fully faction fitted. The two guys that were with me had 4 mil and 12 mil SP. So I've been on both sides of the coin, ECM is annoying as hell. The fact that there is a mod out there that can prevent you from using ANY offensive mods is just stupid.
Removing ECM would be an issue however because you would have to change many ships in the game like Blackbird, Falcon, Scorpian etc.
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Lord Spidey
Hmmzor.
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:00:00 -
[65]
I agree with OP.
Nothing like running into gangs where MEGATHRONS have multispecs and escort caracals are carrying 2 a peice.
Nothing like watching my scorp get jammed with a medium slot backup array
Nothing like watching my dedicated jamming ship with t2 jammers fail to jam anything.
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MellaRinn
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:08:00 -
[66]
Well, after reading a lot of thought out comments as well as trollage, here is what I will write.
1. I was using a Dominix with 2 Compulsive Multis (second best) and had Dumus permajammed with 1 failure for about 4 minutes in his Sacrilege with the best ECCM active module mounted. This means - my dominix DRONE battleship was permajamming a HAC with 98% more strength than the base. My skills aren't that great in EW - signal dispersion lv 3. Takes about a day to train after a few days of higher level basic ew skill training which you need for cap/t2 variant anyway.
2. YES, I do object to 3 t1 fitted ECM-horsing cruisers to be able to take out a HAC (let's be realistic - a ship needing at least 4 months of dedicated, specialisation training to fly EFFECTIVELY), while my t1 fitted Megathron can't break this SAC's tank 1v1 without drones (my gunnery sucks, but this was to make a point that SAC is the best tanked HAC in game, if that's the last thing it's good for).
3. I don't object to be jammed 90% of the time in anything short of the biggest, toughest ships fitted with ECCM, by an EW oriented ship (Rook, Scorp, BB, Falcon).
4. E-War needs a fix badly, as we all know. Those who don't clearly have no clue about game balance.
Any comments?
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Wesley Harding
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Posted - 2006.07.15 04:05:00 -
[67]
Originally by: MellaRinn
Well, after reading a lot of thought out comments as well as trollage, here is what I will write.
1. I was using a Dominix with 2 Compulsive Multis (second best) and had Dumus permajammed with 1 failure for about 4 minutes in his Sacrilege with the best ECCM active module mounted. This means - my dominix DRONE battleship was permajamming a HAC with 98% more strength than the base. My skills aren't that great in EW - signal dispersion lv 3. Takes about a day to train after a few days of higher level basic ew skill training which you need for cap/t2 variant anyway.
2. YES, I do object to 3 t1 fitted ECM-horsing cruisers to be able to take out a HAC (let's be realistic - a ship needing at least 4 months of dedicated, specialisation training to fly EFFECTIVELY), while my t1 fitted Megathron can't break this SAC's tank 1v1 without drones (my gunnery sucks, but this was to make a point that SAC is the best tanked HAC in game, if that's the last thing it's good for).
3. I don't object to be jammed 90% of the time in anything short of the biggest, toughest ships fitted with ECCM, by an EW oriented ship (Rook, Scorp, BB, Falcon).
4. E-War needs a fix badly, as we all know. Those who don't clearly have no clue about game balance.
Any comments?
Um, it'd take like half a day to train heavy nos. Put a couple on your Mega and most ships in the game won't be able to tank you anywhere.
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Prestis
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Posted - 2006.07.15 04:05:00 -
[68]
I still like the idea of just removing multi-spectrals.
Specialist ECM ships could fit every racial type and still get jams off, and other ships would need intel on their targets to fit the right ones. Or they could fit for the ships they're most likely to encounter (*cough* gravimetric *cough*), which would give a bonus to the 'less popular' races of EVE.
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burek
A.W.M
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Posted - 2006.07.15 04:16:00 -
[69]
I agree that ECM is lame the way it works. There should be more emphasis on it being effective on EW ships instead of everything. Yes, I realise they already have bonuses but the modules them selves still work too well on other ships.
Maybe the EW ship bonuses should be doubled or trippled and the strength of the modules nerfed by half or more. That is if you must keep the current system.
It's just nothing lamer when you should absolutely annihilate someone due to being superior in character skills, RL skills and you have them scrambled etc for them to jam you with their magic 3 midslot ****box. Or a totally even skills fight between two tempests with identical setups. He who's jammer doesn't fail, wins. That is the bottom line today pretty much, since everyone's packing anyway.
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Ehker Gerete
HelpCorp United
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Posted - 2006.07.15 04:55:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Ehker Gerete on 15/07/2006 05:00:00
I think that ECM should only work on specalised ECM ships (Rook, BB, Scorpion), unless you have a rank 22 skill to level 5. AND it would need a bit of specalisation.
Only problem i see is the current state of tracking disruptors, they dont work that well and most Arbitrator/Curse/Pilgrim pilots just fit ECM instead. So, considering the slots on those ships, there should be a Tracking Disruptor and a Missile Disruptor. one of these modules is enough to disable missiles/turrets.
A tracking disruptor does what it does now but a larger effect. a missile disruptor would increase the explosion radius.
Missile Disruptor I:
Explosion Radius multiplier: 2x
Explosion Velocity Multiplier: x0.375
In an arbitrator with cruiser 4 (and navigation 4, no AB):
Explosion Radius multiplier: 2.4x
Explosion Velocity Multiplier: x0.25
Scourge heavy missile shot from a caracal with cruiser 4 and heavy missiles 4:
explosion radius of 360m
Explosion velocity of 187.5
216 damage
Arbitrator is 130m and 204m/s
This would end up with the missile doing 71.7 damage
of course, the weapon disrupting modules wouldnt work well on anything besides a ship made for them, as goes with ECM and sensor damps. These ships have a built in tradeoff that they have paper thin defenses. they can't tank that well, so their EW becomes their tank. but when a 4 midslot whatever that armor tanks can OMGWTFPWN tank and fit ECM and OMGWTFPWN DPS its outbalanced.
and the stats i had are still screw-around-with-able. but an arbitrator should have something like this in its 4 midslots:
1x AB/web, 1x scram, 1x missile disruptor, 1x turret disruptor.
a pilgrim can fit AB, web, and scram, and a curse can fit that and better ewar.
of course the tradeoff is that pilgrim and curse are more expensive. and between those two, the pilgrim can covops cloak, which is pretty damn nice, and the curse has to fit the speed and lock time gimping cloak, if any.
Please keep your signature below the 24000 bytes limit.- Pirlouit
There. Fixed. - Ehker |
Lo3d3R
Implant Liberation Front
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Posted - 2006.07.15 09:42:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Dumus
Just remove it from the game completly. It sucks.
agreed.
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Eating Chopped Bear  |
Ilyana
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2006.07.15 09:54:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Ilyana on 15/07/2006 10:02:47
Quote:
After that I threw out my 'fairplay' and started being an ECM ***** too. As I always say, You can't be a nice guy in a *****es world. My Maller, along with a thorax and another maller took down the Zealot of a 2004 player and it was fully faction fitted. The two guys that were with me had 4 mil and 12 mil SP.
Wow, you must feel really uber now.
This is the reason player disabling moves in MMORPGs suck badly, it's human nature. Several people figure it out and before we know it, the entire game uses them. You see the same with player disabling moves in every MMORPG. It's a nightmare to balance properly.
I've been reading up on the new system after a loong time of absence and it isn't necessarily completely broken but needs heavy tweaking. It seems the base chance to jam someone with only 1 jammer is a bit high. Removing EW isn't really an option since people probably invested heavily in skills for it.
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Dumus
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.15 10:01:00 -
[73]
It is very difficult to balance a game I agree. You should all be glad I am NOT in charge 
I take my hat off to CCP for the job they do. But Multispecs are really borked and it spoils the fun in my opinion not just for the Jammed but also for the Jammer. I get no pleasure from winning with ease. I like my pulse to be racing and getting the shakes. The sense of elation from a good fight is what I am after not this cant do **** to defend my self.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 10:06:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Ilyana
Quote:
After that I threw out my 'fairplay' and started being an ECM ***** too. As I always say, You can't be a nice guy in a *****es world. My Maller, along with a thorax and another maller took down the Zealot of a 2004 player and it was fully faction fitted. The two guys that were with me had 4 mil and 12 mil SP.
Wow, you must feel really uber now.
This is the reason most MMORPG pvp sucks badly, it's human nature. Several people figure out the iwin approaches and before we know it, the entire game uses them. You see the same with player disabling moves in every MMORPG. It's horrible to balance properly.
I dont know any other game where you can keep the other played stunlocked for the entire fight, even as a total newbie. Target jamming is way too powerful when used on normal combat ships.
Its time to do something about this. Its been too long now and nothing is being done. The fact that EW wasnt even allowed in the pvp tournament really does show that its too powerful. A gang of caldari missile spammers combined with EW would wtfpwn the other side no matter what they did.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
PriceCheckMax
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Posted - 2006.07.15 11:03:00 -
[75]
Correct me if I am wrong, but haven't devs stated that the don't want solopwn mobiles?
3 t1 cruisers attacking your hac? What, do you expect them to go with speed mod, web and 20km disruptor each? Instead they choose to fit things that are the best for the gang(EW)! I really can't see wrong with that, it is a multiplayer() game after all, not some "I-solo-pwn-players-with-less-sp" game.
I can only see the issue of multispectrals being too strong, remove them and ECM will be more or less balanced in my opinion.
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Lifewire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 11:17:00 -
[76]
I think the old ECM system was better - but people saying ECM should be completly removed or nerfed have to see this:
What can a scorpion or a blackbird do? These ships are lousy damage dealers and would be totally useless without ECM. Why use a Scorp or Blackbird if i can use a Mega or a Thorax??? The only reason is: ECM. This is where those caldary ships are good at. To remove ECM from the game means to recode Caldary ships and missiles. So - simply forget it - ECM will stay. And ECM is good - to fight outnumbered ECM is an option.
Forum:http://www.tundragon.com/forum/
Movies:http://www.tundragon.com/pub/eveclips
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Yolan
Stupid People Always Need Killing
E N I G M A
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Posted - 2006.07.15 12:36:00 -
[77]
ECM for ECM ships only.
Sorted.
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Powder Monkey
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Posted - 2006.07.15 13:03:00 -
[78]
Jammed a raven with 1 named 4.6 multi 3 times in a row in my thorax 
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 13:05:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Powder Monkey
Jammed a raven with 1 named 4.6 multi 3 times in a row in my thorax
Happens every day. Some people feel thats game balance. I dont.
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Tao Han
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.15 13:40:00 -
[80]
Midslot EW
------
Tracking DisruptorsTurrets have a harder time hitting you, good for close combat ships
Sensor DampeningLocking range reduced, good for long range combat ships
Target Painting (!)Enhance damage vs painted ship
ECMTargeted ship has a great chance of not being able to target anything
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Then add to the fact that devs has a great problem balancing ECM, earlier the chance to jam was guaranteed but that was changed for our dice rolling system of today. My main problem with ECM is that there really isnt a good way to counter it, ECCM is a joke even if it was improved some weeks ago.
If we keep ECM make the victim of it not being able to target the ship which is using the ECM module. And I suggest this because currently being a ECM victim renders your skillpoints and ship totaly useless and that isnt fun. Fun should be the goal to strive for and not being able to defend himself makes ECM overpowered and it removes the fun from the game.
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Another idea:
ECM modules lowers the amount of targets you can have locked. For each module that "sticks" on the target one "lock slot" is removed. this should remove the "lucky bastard with one ECM module" syndrome that seems to be everywhere.
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Epsilon 1
mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2006.07.15 13:41:00 -
[81]
Make them a high slot module with a very high CPU/tf requirment. End of story
Originally by: Steven Gerrard
Why do those minmatarians throw their ships together from toilet paper and junk?
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MellaRinn
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.07.15 13:53:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Wesley Harding
Originally by: MellaRinn
Well, after reading a lot of thought out comments as well as trollage, here is what I will write.
1. I was using a Dominix with 2 Compulsive Multis (second best) and had Dumus permajammed with 1 failure for about 4 minutes in his Sacrilege with the best ECCM active module mounted. This means - my dominix DRONE battleship was permajamming a HAC with 98% more strength than the base. My skills aren't that great in EW - signal dispersion lv 3. Takes about a day to train after a few days of higher level basic ew skill training which you need for cap/t2 variant anyway.
2. YES, I do object to 3 t1 fitted ECM-horsing cruisers to be able to take out a HAC (let's be realistic - a ship needing at least 4 months of dedicated, specialisation training to fly EFFECTIVELY), while my t1 fitted Megathron can't break this SAC's tank 1v1 without drones (my gunnery sucks, but this was to make a point that SAC is the best tanked HAC in game, if that's the last thing it's good for).
3. I don't object to be jammed 90% of the time in anything short of the biggest, toughest ships fitted with ECCM, by an EW oriented ship (Rook, Scorp, BB, Falcon).
4. E-War needs a fix badly, as we all know. Those who don't clearly have no clue about game balance.
Any comments?
Um, it'd take like half a day to train heavy nos. Put a couple on your Mega and most ships in the game won't be able to tank you anywhere.
LOL! you just made me laugh my head off.. FYI my Mega setup is the standard 1 heavy nos setup with a full set of low-grade talismans in my head. So you can take your worthless comment back as I was referring to the structural integrity of Sacrilege and its pure DPS tanking ability rather than survivability as a way of exemplifying the nature of the problem whereby a tiny group of under 5month old players in t1 cruisers can take out a ship that takes about as long to train for as they have been flying anything bigger than a velator.
As well as that, if you didn't notice, heavy nos is countered even in pairs by cap injection of 800s. go do the maths, Sacrilege is the best cruiser tank ingame and though it will not survive to a BS, it can tank it a long time. kthxbai..
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Celedris
Tharsis Security
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Posted - 2006.07.15 15:27:00 -
[83]
Originally by: MellaRinn
the nature of the problem whereby a tiny group of under 5month old players in t1 cruisers can take out a ship that takes about as long to train for as they have been flying
There are problems with the ECM system, but do you really think a veteran HAC pilot should be automatically entitled to take down four T1 cruisers at the same time?
One of things that is nice about Eve is that its not like WoW, where the guy with the huge glowy epic sword will automatically kill a group of people with inferior equipment.
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Infinity Ziona
The First Noble Truth
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Posted - 2006.07.15 16:54:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 15/07/2006 16:54:28
Originally by: Celedris
Originally by: MellaRinn
the nature of the problem whereby a tiny group of under 5month old players in t1 cruisers can take out a ship that takes about as long to train for as they have been flying
There are problems with the ECM system, but do you really think a veteran HAC pilot should be automatically entitled to take down four T1 cruisers at the same time?
One of things that is nice about Eve is that its not like WoW, where the guy with the huge glowy epic sword will automatically kill a group of people with inferior equipment.
Glowy **** pwns stuff. You obviously havent been keeping up on the recent pawnage overseas by some of the more highly trained and high tech nations.
Training and high technology should always beat a rabble of untrained low tech muggers.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2006.07.15 17:50:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Noriath on 15/07/2006 17:51:26
ECM has to go, it's one of the worst basic mechanics in all of Eve.
The fact that EW was outlawed at the alliance tournament speaks volumes about how balanced it really is.
And to people saying: "It should only work on special EW ships" - how does that help it? One of the main reasons why ECM is so ridiculous is because of specialized EW ships that can not only fit twice as much of it as anyone else, but also get completly over the top bonuses on it...
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Strong Bubba
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Posted - 2006.07.15 17:51:00 -
[86]
Love it how ccp didn't include ecm in the tournament, shows it all
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Logan Fyreite
Nubs.
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Posted - 2006.07.15 18:22:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 14/07/2006 18:07:22
"OMG I CANT GANK ENOUGH NUBS NERF TEH ECM!!"
Thats basically what I'm getting out of this thread. I'm almost completely happy with the state of ECM today. ECM pilots have weak armor, and cant expect to kill anything because their damage sucks so bad. Expecting to win 4v1 against a gang of pilots who have built their ships to counter your setup is just asking to lose a HAC. No one soloes with an ECM ship. It almost always loses to enemy drones.
Maybe I can point out a few things:
ECM ships do crap for dammage. A well tanked HAC should be able to both outrun and outtank 4 blackbirds, so I'm assuming you were up against 4 scorps? In which case dont expect to win 4v1 against any battleship. Hell it took me 5 minutes to kill a helios in a BB. My BB nearly lost to a MINING BARGE. So it sounds to me like your setup sucked if it couldnt tank the damage output of 4 mining barges.
ECMs fail a lot when your enemy has an ECCM on. Maybe you need to fit one?
ECM ships are ridiculously unarmored, bring a friend with you and its over.
ECM ships have very little defence against drones.
Should a HAC really be able to expect to win 4v1 all the time?
The only caveat I can think of is groups of pilots who use a single multispectral each in their setup. But you said ECM was the primary weapon so I'm assuming not.
In other words you could have beaten them but they had "the correct setup(tm)" and you didn't like that.
Synapse - where to start? He was not fighting 4 specialist ECM ships as you intone in your post, he was fighting 4 combat cruisers. I don't think he should have been able to beat them, but at least he should be able to shoot back. If there had been 4 blackbirds there or even 1 or two that were ECMing him out I doubt he would have complained as much. I certainly would not care then. But being jammed by ships like the rupture or Rax or something with only 3 mids may just mean that the module they are using to replace speed aka a AB or MWD is a multispec or a ECM module of some kind.
If that does not seem like a module is overpowered then I don't know what would. Should a HAC be able to fight 4 v 1 and win? not all the time, depending on your setup and the 4 ships that it is fighting, should it be able to fight back against non-EW specced ships? I think so.
Something needs to be changed about ECM, it solopwns every other type of special warfare, like dampners, target painters or tracking disruptors. Even on something like the Bellicose(that has a target painting bonus) I would still rather fit ECM than a target painter cause I know that the target is not going to be able to fight back when he is jammed, at all. Dampners may make it hard to target out to your full range or increase the time it takes you to target, but at least the counter module works to combat that affect. Tracking disruptors can be countered by tracking computers, target painters don't really need to be countered because they are garbage TBH. ECM works an insane percentage of the time to make your ship wholly useless. Unless your flying a ship with 4-7 missile launchers fitted WITH FoF or a drone ship and your lucky enough to launch your drones and lock before your jammed out, or your drones just go off and do their own thing, maybe taking out one ship.
and another thing... FoF missiles don't work wonders against jamming, sure they might take out one ship then each launcher starts shooting at a different ship each, none of your damage adds up, and you still die. so basically why are missiles the only ones that can fire while jammed? what about FoF guns or a FoF module or something? or just ECCM that works either way. Maybe even both.
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.07.15 18:30:00 -
[88]
The tournament is supposed to be a fair fight.
The rest of the game is not.
ECM may not be "fair" but I don't really see a HAC pilot coming 1v1 against my dictor as fair either. Too bad I was actually AFK when this happened or I would have jammed the **** out of him. *grumblestupidss*
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The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain.
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Naichi
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.16 02:38:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Lifewire
I think the old ECM system was better
Agree, the pointbased Ecm was great. You needed 1 ship to jam another singel ship. Bring that back and have a slight % chance to be able to jam with lower points and that raises a bit how closer you are to actualy jam the ship.
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'Everytime a miner kills a roid.. we kill a miner' |
Ikaru Otoni
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.16 09:28:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Dumus
<... random whiny diatribe...>[/i]
I know it sounds like I am just a sore loser. If thats what you want to think then there is not much I can do to stop you. But let me tell you what I believe is the truth about why I feel so sore. I had no fun whatsoever during this fight, I was jammed, triple webbed, scrammed, and being bumped from the gate. I could do NOTHING to fight back. In my opinion this just sucked, as does ECM jammers.
I would seriously, if I was in charge, take them out of the game.
You had "no fun", because you could "do NOTHING" to fight back". Therefore, you would have taken them out of the game, because they ruined *your* fun, because it's all about how *you* feel about the game, of course.
You, a VETO member, whining about how unfair it is to be 'ganked' by a group of 'noobs' that happened to know what they were doing, and beat you fair and square.
How does it feel to be on the receiving end for a change?
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