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Autocannons vs. Blasters (and the Tempest): Something's Gotta Give

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Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.07.15 10:40:00 - [91] If you land on top of a neutron gank megathron and don't run like hell when your multispec jams you deserve to die. Where is your damage control as rest assured the mega had one? Why are you fitting plates which make you far less agile and reduce your MWD speed? Why are you only using 1 heavy and 1 medium nos instead of dropping to Dual 425mms and running 2 heavy nos to kill its cap quicker and at range? Did you immediatly try and run out of his web range? Did you orbit at high speed taking out his drones with your drones and web? Instead of relying on approch and keep at range, did you use manual control (moving directly upwards or downwards when charged helps as you only need to turn 90 degrees instead of 180) to avoid him getting too close or too far? Everything in that fight went in favour of the bthron pilot. You got lost fair and square, so stop complaining, refine your setup, learn from your mistake and go looking for him ;) TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar
Grimpak Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.15 10:41:00 - [92] Originally by: Pesadel0 Originally by: Wrayeth Originally by: Naughty Boy Originally by: Grimpak as for the rest, considering the D650 and the neutron blaster, what's their efective range with barrage and null? Link. NB. Thank you. This cant be rigth ,cant it? unfortunately it is. the wonders of null ammo \o/ ------- Originally by: Abdalion Originally by: Jebidus Skari What, in EVE, is a Tyrant? Me. Especially when it comes to troll threads.
HippoKing Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.15 10:46:00 - [93] Originally by: Sarmaul If you land on top of a neutron gank megathron and don't run like hell when your multispec jams you deserve to die. Where is your damage control as rest assured the mega had one? Why are you fitting plates which make you far less agile and reduce your MWD speed? Why are you only using 1 heavy and 1 medium nos instead of dropping to Dual 425mms and running 2 heavy nos to kill its cap quicker and at range? Did you immediatly try and run out of his web range? Did you orbit at high speed taking out his drones with your drones and web? Instead of relying on approch and keep at range, did you use manual control (moving directly upwards or downwards when charged helps as you only need to turn 90 degrees instead of 180) to avoid him getting too close or too far? Everything in that fight went in favour of the bthron pilot. You got lost fair and square, so stop complaining, refine your setup, learn from your mistake and go looking for him ;) Pretty much what I was thinking
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:01:00 - [94] Fly a Raven with tech II siege, 2 kinetic hardeners, 2 thermal hardeners. All your Megathron problems instantly solved. :P
zurich93 Shinra Lotka Volterra	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:17:00 - [95] The funny thing is 50% of pilots fly blasterthrons because they are so overpowerd, so most of the posters fly the ship therefor dont want it nerfed. i have fought alot of blasterthrons in my pest and staying at 16km dosent work, you need to try it before you say "mwd to 16km and WTFBBQPWN them" it dont work like that.
Bigben Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:17:00 - [96] your completely right wrayeth!! i have the exact same problem, i got a in range with my 650mm2s with quake, his armor seemed to be going down very slowly however i only managed to jam him once but he still owned me when he had around 15% armor left?? ac's need a damage increase of about 10%.. they do cat licks at the enemy atm.. even with maxed out skills, here was my setup 6x 650s 2 heavy nos 100 ab 2 cap injecter webb scrabler jammer then lar mar 3 active hardeners/ 1 damage mod 3 tracking disrupter drones
welsh wizard	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:21:00 - [97] Originally by: zurich93 The funny thing is 50% of pilots fly blasterthrons because they are so overpowerd, so most of the posters fly the ship therefor dont want it nerfed. i have fought alot of blasterthrons in my pest and staying at 16km dosent work, you need to try it before you say "mwd to 16km and WTFBBQPWN them" it dont work like that. I bet it does for dabster.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:21:00 - [98] Wrayeth This thread is pointless, why? Because YOU keep ignoring people's posts which suggest that they are fine for example my posts with you have ignored. And because of this no balance will occur because you don't want ot bring attention to those things, if you expect to change you have to go through a long list... High-Sec Piracy Recruitment
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:23:00 - [99] You what, overpowered? For ages they have suffered to almost all other bs and now your gonna moan because it's as deadly as it should be at 'close' range, sheesh. Iron and G eat babie's , my views are my own, they do not refect my corp or my alliance
Gabriel Karade Office linebackers Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:25:00 - [100] Blasterthrons are fine, they still have their flaws (and the 'boost' didn't change much at all really), plus the new Typhoon is a beast up close (Siege + AC + Heavy drones = bbqpwnage) ---------- - Office Linebacker -
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:27:00 - [101] Originally by: zurich93 The funny thing is 50% of pilots fly blasterthrons because they are so overpowerd, so most of the posters fly the ship therefor dont want it nerfed. i have fought alot of blasterthrons in my pest and staying at 16km dosent work, you need to try it before you say "mwd to 16km and WTFBBQPWN them" it dont work like that. It works perfectly, even with the insane range gimpage that is T1 ammo (can you feel my seething, tempest-pilot hatred for the T1/T2 ammo cleft? You better). Anyways, proper speed and cap management and a Tempest vs Bthron is often a whitewash for the Tempest, excluding extrordinairly bad luck in jamming combined with getting caught. With T1 guns it's a fairly slow kill if the Blasterthron is reasonably tanked at all, but it's a kill none the less. And I don't quite see the issue people have with direction changes. You've got a velocity indicator, it's pretty damn easy to tell when the other guy is slowing down or turning around. God forbid their be some thinking involved in a fight :/
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:45:00 - [102] Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/07/2006 11:46:14 Originally by: Kaeten Wrayeth This thread is pointless, why? Because YOU keep ignoring people's posts which suggest that they are fine for example my posts with you have ignored. And because of this no balance will occur because you don't want ot bring attention to those things, if you expect to change you have to go through a long list... ok Wrayeth is a noob! he ram a mega filled with blasters he don't keep distance he don't use transversal velocy... and on top of that he mount an overpowered ECM and it get destroyed... lol lol what a n00b!!! but ther's something wrong in this picture? (PS: sorry Wrayeth is not meant as an offence to you)
Phlaago Rexor Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:48:00 - [103] Originally by: Bigben your completely right wrayeth!! i have the exact same problem, i got a in range with my 650mm2s with quake, his armor seemed to be going down very slowly however i only managed to jam him once but he still owned me when he had around 15% armor left?? ac's need a damage increase of about 10%.. they do cat licks at the enemy atm.. even with maxed out skills, here was my setup 6x 650s 2 heavy nos 100 ab 2 cap injecter webb scrabler jammer then lar mar 3 active hardeners/ 1 damage mod 3 tracking disrupter drones drop 3 D650's down to D425 and switch the Mar2 for a Lar2. also quake is artillery ammo.. and Hail as we know have that sick speed penalty so.. were you guys shooting it out at about 1k range or less and standing still? in that case your trackingdisruptor drones are wasted. It's not likely your 2 nosses had much effect in such a short fight, i would suggest 2 siege launchers and 2 heavy, 2 medium and 1 light drone... that would kick up your damage output by what.. 200-300dps at least? (with skills ranging from 'decent' to 'godly') any comparison between 2 ships is pretty pointless unless you know both setups though.. :/ Opinions expressed above are my own and not those of my corp or alliance. I speak only for myself.
operated Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2006.07.15 11:58:00 - [104] Meh when i see a blasterthron in my ac temp i just get the hell out of there , if im not specifically setup to fight him . Saying that i actually engage everything but i dont uhm become angry when i lose . Theres always a winner and a loser .Looking at your 'tank'you had maybe 55% thermal 55% kinetic , now blasterthron says omghi meet my blasters wich do ****load of kinetic and thermal damage .Maybe you hoped to much on your i win button (ecm) but you should of realised you werent gonna do much with your setup vs a blasterthron .All this beiing said acs are little bit underpowerd .
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.07.15 12:01:00 - [105] Originally by: fire 59 You what, overpowered? For ages they have suffered to almost all other bs and now your gonna moan because it's as deadly as it should be at 'close' range, sheesh. Meh most people fail to realize, that the only thing that changed on thron is 2x TS plating -> 2x eanm II. And slightly less cap use which was insane(injector on auto just to keep guns running... no thanks). Anyway i wonder how wrayeth landed 2km away from thron? Jumped in and was 2km away or something? ... coz on jump in if you have mwd, you can usually do omg camp maneuver even if you jump into frig gang. --------- Boost caldari. It will reduce whining on forums due to the fact: 45% chars are mostly caldari specialized.
Naughty Boy	Posted - 2006.07.15 12:21:00 - [106] Edited by: Naughty Boy on 15/07/2006 12:23:03 Originally by: Ath Amon but ther's something wrong in this picture? You are using the top tier guns for each ship, but considering that the differences between the different options are marginal for autocannons and really significant for blasters, you'd get far different results comparing different turrets. In short, it's quite obvious that autocannons still need sorting (at the very least, they aren't different enough), as does t2 ammo. NB.
Wrayeth PAX Interstellar Services Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.07.15 12:36:00 - [107] Originally by: Sarmaul If you land on top of a neutron gank megathron and don't run like hell when your multispec jams you deserve to die. Where is your damage control as rest assured the mega had one? The plate is performing the same function - added hitpoints. The hitpoints from the plate are actually repairable. Quote: Why are you fitting plates which make you far less agile and reduce your MWD speed? I haven't noticed a difference in my MWD speed. AFAIK, the penalty only crops up when you fit oversized plates or have more than one fitted. Quote: Why are you only using 1 heavy and 1 medium nos instead of dropping to Dual 425mms and running 2 heavy nos to kill its cap quicker and at range? If you'd read my replies, you'd understand why: it's impossible to maintain range without the blasterthron getting away or you getting stuck in web range. I can't be assed to type out the specifics of why again, so you'll just have to go back and READ my other posts in this thread. Did you immediatly try and run out of his web range? Tried: yes, succeeded: no. Not that it would've mattered much, anyway, for reasons that were included in my other posts. Quote: Did you orbit at high speed taking out his drones with your drones and web? That doesn't work against targets that have their own web. It works on most 'geddons since a web is not a common fitting for some reason, but blasterthrons are another matter - competent ones, anyway. Quote: Instead of relying on approch and keep at range, did you use manual control (moving directly upwards or downwards when charged helps as you only need to turn 90 degrees instead of 180) to avoid him getting too close or too far? This still results in a high likelyhood of the mega pilot either getting out of scramble range and warping or getting into web range and melting you, again if the blaterthron pilot is competent. Quote: Everything in that fight went in favour of the bthron pilot. You got lost fair and square, so stop complaining, refine your setup, learn from your mistake and go looking for him ;) Yeah, I "lost fair and square" by the game mechanics. Just because something is in game does not, however, mean it's balanced. The trap with the AC tempest vs. a blasterthron pilot that knows what he's doing is that the blasterthron can always get away if you try to maintain range on him, so your only choice is to quit the fight or bull right in and hope you get lucky with your jammer. TBH, I should've just run during the first jamming cycle (I had too much velocity at the beginning of the second to be able to align and warp out). That's the problem, however - the blasterthron isn't the only short range ship, and it shouldn't automatically be a "win" or "escape" button when fighting an AC tempest. The tempest should have more than just a fleeting chance, yet that's not the case. Anyway, I'm tired, it's 5:30am, and I haven't been to bed yet, and I have no idea if any of the crap I just typed is actually worded comprehensibly. As far as the AC tempest and EVE balance is concerned, I'm tired of dealing with it. I think I'm going to go carebear for a while until the devs fix this mess (if they ever fix it). I've got no interest in training another race's tech II weaponry and ship skills from the ground up (I spent the last six months training month-long level 5's - I can't take it anymore!), Caldari aren't very fun to fly (though they're effective), and Minmatar (or at least the tempest) are currently sub-par. I'm tired of being the underdog all the freaking time, but too stubborn to go flavor-of-the-month (not to mention too fed up with long-ass training times). It's days like this when I wonder if EVE's really worth my subscription money - all my skills in Minmatar and Projectiles count for exactly jack, it seems. **** it. I'm out. Maybe I'll feel better tomorrow. -Wrayeth "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.07.15 12:42:00 - [108] yes i agree that there is not enought difference for ACs, expecially 800mm are quite crappy and 650mm is generally a better choice. but the main point in that graph is that basically a mega filled with neutron and using null is superior to a tempest at basically any close range. you can orbit at 19km but its neutrons will still outdamage your ACs... is ok if mega = very close range tempest = stay away and orbit (if is possible to orbit) but is not the case. mega will still outdps the tempest even if this one is at "extreme" close range and trying to take advantage of transversal velocity and this is umbalanced imo. also as said in the other post there are even other troubles for ACs like the lack of alpha strike (who for arty compensate the low dmg) and the fact that they need 2 ship dmg bonuses (RoF and Dmg) to be comparable to other weapons.
Phlaago Rexor Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.15 12:46:00 - [109] Originally by: Naughty Boy Edited by: Naughty Boy on 15/07/2006 12:23:03 Originally by: Ath Amon but ther's something wrong in this picture? You are using the top tier guns for each ship, but considering that the differences between the different options are marginal for autocannons and really significant for blasters, you'd get far different results comparing different turrets. In short, it's quite obvious that autocannons still need sorting (at the very least, they aren't different enough), as does t2 ammo. NB. Yea, either the toptier AC's need something (falloff, damage.. optimal? i dont know) or maybe the blasters need to be closer together in range. Theroetical scenario: Tempest somehow manages to keep 17km range to a blasterthron. (lets not worry about exactly HOW just now... im just trying to make a point) he uses mwd and somehow manages a 1300m/s transversal and his sig is about 2040m with mwd on (i think) in short, speed alone is not enough to overcome the megas tracking with this huge signature no matter what turret the mega uses. (and neutrons on a mega tracks better than dual425 on a tempest) lets say the tempest has a good dualrep tank (70, 55, 67, 71 resists.. figures are hypothetical but possible). if the Blasterthron uses electron II with 2 magstab II and Null L he will have less than 50% hitchance due to falloff, tempest can tank it fairly comfortably once the megas drones are dead (88-90dps after resists is well within the limits of dual T2 repairers) If the blasterthron switches one magstab for a co-proc and uses Ion II's instead his hitchance with Null L at the same range goes up to just above 75%.. this too is possible to tank, barely (125dps roughly) if his drones are already dead. If the mega sacrifices his dualrep tank and heavy injector for a medium injector with singlerep+1600mmplate tank and goes for Neutron II with 3 magstab II's his hitchance with Null L is over 88% at 17km and no dualrep tank (barring dual factionreps of the highest quality) will hold for 209dps after resistances, this too is assuming you have already killed off his drones. Not being able to tank a Neutron blasterthron is perfectly fine, he sacrifices the option of a strong tank to make it so. Calculations were done with quickfit (yes i know its not always right but I have a habit of checking with a scientific calculator from time to time on the ships i fly to make sure) and assumes maxed skills (specialisation 5) and 3% rate of fire implant, but no specific damage implant for large hybrid turrets. Opinions expressed above are my own and not those of my corp or alliance. I speak only for myself.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.07.15 12:55:00 - [110] tempest running constantly a MWD, 2 large rep, and easilly killing all the mega drones? (not to say that tempest have a small drone bay so is more likelly that mega drones will kill tempest one and then play with the tempest) ok let's ipotize that i have an Eidolon....
Phlaago Rexor Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.15 13:01:00 - [111] Edited by: Phlaago Rexor on 15/07/2006 13:01:25 Originally by: Ath Amon tempest running constantly a MWD, 2 large rep, and easilly killing all the mega drones? (not to say that tempest have a small drone bay so is more likelly that mega drones will kill tempest one and then play with the tempest) ok let's ipotize that i have an Eidolon.... I did say it was hypothetical, im aware that it cant run mwd constantly while running dualreps even on a heavy injector, you would need 3-4 heavy named nosses as well to suck up enough cap for that... doesnt leave you much to do damage with. Opinions expressed above are my own and not those of my corp or alliance. I speak only for myself.
Awox	Posted - 2006.07.15 13:34:00 - [112] /signed ACs really need a boost. - nerf 0.5+
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.07.15 13:36:00 - [113] Originally by: Ath Amon Edited by: Ath Amon on 15/07/2006 11:46:14 Originally by: Kaeten Wrayeth This thread is pointless, why? Because YOU keep ignoring people's posts which suggest that they are fine for example my posts with you have ignored. And because of this no balance will occur because you don't want ot bring attention to those things, if you expect to change you have to go through a long list... ok Wrayeth is a noob! he ram a mega filled with blasters he don't keep distance he don't use transversal velocy... and on top of that he mount an overpowered ECM and it get destroyed... lol lol what a n00b!!! but ther's something wrong in this picture? (PS: sorry Wrayeth is not meant as an offence to you) his setup is crap. Gank > tank If he fits u pfor gank with shield tank+plates the result will be very diffrent. Also remember, he is comparing a TANKING tempest agisnt a GANKING megathron. The mega will always win as gank > tank. His discussion is biased as hell. Waryth, take a proper blastathron vs your tanked tmepest and then start to talk. High-Sec Piracy Recruitment
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.07.15 13:46:00 - [114] Originally by: Sarmaul If you land on top of a neutron gank megathron and don't run like hell when your multispec jams you deserve to die. Where is your damage control as rest assured the mega had one? Why are you fitting plates which make you far less agile and reduce your MWD speed? Why are you only using 1 heavy and 1 medium nos instead of dropping to Dual 425mms and running 2 heavy nos to kill its cap quicker and at range? Did you immediatly try and run out of his web range? Did you orbit at high speed taking out his drones with your drones and web? Instead of relying on approch and keep at range, did you use manual control (moving directly upwards or downwards when charged helps as you only need to turn 90 degrees instead of 180) to avoid him getting too close or too far? Everything in that fight went in favour of the bthron pilot. You got lost fair and square, so stop complaining, refine your setup, learn from your mistake and go looking for him ;) unfortunetly he can't back up his idea High-Sec Piracy Recruitment
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.07.15 13:50:00 - [115] Originally by: Ath Amon tempest running constantly a MWD, 2 large rep, and easilly killing all the mega drones? (not to say that tempest have a small drone bay so is more likelly that mega drones will kill tempest one and then play with the tempest) ok let's ipotize that i have an Eidolon.... t's all to do wit the setup AGAIN As stated you sacrafice dmg for tank and we all know a tank requires more cap than gnak. If u fit gank however u dont need much gank as I've stated before, try a gank setup on the tempest... High-Sec Piracy Recruitment
Terbella	Posted - 2006.07.15 14:32:00 - [116] Edited by: Terbella on 15/07/2006 14:32:49 im a stupid alt...
Trefnis Euphoria Released Dusk and Dawn	Posted - 2006.07.15 14:32:00 - [117] Edited by: Trefnis on 15/07/2006 14:33:13 Originally by: Kaeten Originally by: Ath Amon tempest running constantly a MWD, 2 large rep, and easilly killing all the mega drones? (not to say that tempest have a small drone bay so is more likelly that mega drones will kill tempest one and then play with the tempest) ok let's ipotize that i have an Eidolon.... t's all to do wit the setup AGAIN As stated you sacrafice dmg for tank and we all know a tank requires more cap than gnak. If u fit gank however u dont need much gank as I've stated before, try a gank setup on the tempest... Can you shutup now with this gank > tank crap ??? Go get a tempest, fit 6x800mm t2, mwd+web+scrambler+injector, 3 gyrost2 and now fith any kind of tank with 1 med or 3 lows that will let you outlast gank mega in similiar fitting. I really dont think that this mega was fitted anty pest with like 2x explo hardener. and gank fit on tempy will die to any caldari or ammar bs
Ath Amon	Posted - 2006.07.15 14:38:00 - [118] i can agree about gank/tank argues, but i think the problem here is a bit different tempest and mega should be balanced by distance of engagement with the pest more suited for longer distance and mega for short/point blank the problem is that this is not happening as if both ship will have a similar setup (gank or tank) the mega will basically own the tempest at every colse range distance. if you take in account full ship damage outputs with siege and drones in the equation the situation is even worse for the tempest. as said in other post i think there are 2 problems here for the tempest the small drone bay and for ACs their low DPS that is not balanced by other bonuses and as NB outlined also the lack of damage improvement/damage curve between various AC turrets. now i'm not saying that a tempest should outdps an mega in every situation, the DPS could also stay as it is now but there should be other bonuses to balance it as can be alpha strike or tracking. atm the situation under 25km is something like blasters on mega = +dps, +alpha, +tracking -cap ACs on Tempest = +cap, -dps, -alpha, -tracking ir seem quite an umbalanced situation to me.
WereWatchingEverything	Posted - 2006.07.15 15:07:00 - [119] Tracking disruptor anyone?
Sarmaul 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.07.15 15:10:00 - [120] Originally by: WereWatchingEverything Tracking disruptor anyone? Shhh, that's my backup plan for when ECM gets nerfed TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS - In Rust We Trust - Suvetar, care to confirm these rumours about you being an unstoppable sex machine? LOL -Suvetar

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