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Azulya
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Posted - 2006.07.14 20:36:00 -
[1]
Insta solution 1:
Getting rid of the lag
Give us back the ability to try to warp anywhere in the current solar system we want.
Make all bookmarks client side.
They can't be abused because you can try to warp wherever you want anyways.
All of the load from bookmarks (and thus instas) will be taken off the server.
Let us copy bookmarks instantly so we can make as many as we want to sell.
Move the item bookmarks to client side to. They can't be exploited either since people can make as many as they want instantly.
This will take all of that stress off the server also.
So all bookmarks and instas will have 0 impact on the server.
Insta solution 2:
Getting rid of instas all together
Once you have been within 1KM of an object, you can choose to warp to it within 10km, 3km, and 500m.
And then to remove the instas either;
A:
(Might not take as much load off the server, but no chance of innocent bookmarks getting killed)
When warping to a bookmark, you cannot come within closer then 15km to a stationary object. If you do, you get pushed back outside the 15km line.
B:
(Will get rid of all the instas quickly but might delete some innocent bookmarks also, like if you land within 14.9km)
If warping to a bookmark results in coming within less then 15km of a stationary object, the bookmark is deleted and you get pushed back.
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.14 23:53:00 -
[2]
1/
There was never the ability to "warp anywhere".
And fine, now how do I find someone?
2/
"Once you've been within 1km.."
So basically, I have to fly round and grind my way to be able to exist properly in a region, probably taking days, THEN I can actually go about my business? Bleh, grinds suck.
Plus limiting it to within 10km max is a PROBLEM for many setups. And you need the instas. So you've just made a LOT of tactice obselete.
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Azulya
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:08:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Maya Rkell
1/
There was never the ability to "warp anywhere".
And fine, now how do I find someone?
2/
"Once you've been within 1km.."
So basically, I have to fly round and grind my way to be able to exist properly in a region, probably taking days, THEN I can actually go about my business? Bleh, grinds suck.
Plus limiting it to within 10km max is a PROBLEM for many setups. And you need the instas. So you've just made a LOT of tactice obselete.
1/
You could use f11 to do it pretty effectively
2/
"you can choose to warp to it within 10km, 3km, and 500m."
I meant to say "or". Sorry.
And no, you wouldn't get to instantly zoom through areas you've never even been to before. So you won't be able to just insta through enemy territory you've never been to and get past all their defenses. If you could it would be abused. Just like instas are abused now.
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:13:00 -
[4]
Well, then we're at an impass. Because instas are no form of exploit or form of abuse. They are simply a core mechanism of some years standing, arround which a lot of gameplay and many ships are based.
And no, F11 gave you the same linear vector. You could scan down and kill ships using it quick easily even before scan probes.
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Azulya
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:19:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Well, then we're at an impass. Because instas are no form of exploit or form of abuse. They are simply a core mechanism of some years standing, arround which a lot of gameplay and many ships are based.
And no, F11 gave you the same linear vector. You could scan down and kill ships using it quick easily even before scan probes.
That makes sense.. but it was just a rough idea I wrote up in about a minute.. I'm sure it can be refined some no?
1/
Okay it wasn't like that before sorry.. but surely it wouldn't hurt to have it like that?
2/
Isn't it rather unfair that you can go into an area you've never been in before and have no experience in whatsoever, yet be able to take advantage of instant, 99.9% safe travel? Shouldn't someone who has been in a region for a while, has set up a home base there, etc, have an advantage? Instead of just whoever lucks out and finds an insta seller that isn't a scammer?
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:27:00 -
[6]
it's not about "fair" or "unfair", it's about what is good for gameplay. And making people grind for the things they NEED to survive in a region are bad. Moreover, inhibiting travel in that way is a further discouragement to to to less secure space.
I'm in favour of being able to carry a limited number of 0km BM's. So if you want to go enemy scpace, you have to drop others for it. It's all a tradeoff. And there are reputable buyers and other ways to acquire BM's. If you're buying blind on escrow you deserve all you get.
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Cathandra
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:32:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cathandra on 15/07/2006 01:32:36
Game play is important. But shouldn't you have to put in some effort to be able to warp around from place to place instantly with no chance of anyone catching you? If you can just go into an enemy system and instantly warp past all of their defenses wherever you want with hardly any fear, doesn't that tell you that the game play could use a little bit of fine tuning?
If there are places that you visit often then you will be able to instantly warp right up to them from ANY ANGLE and even autopilot will be able to use it. If you are making a 1 time trip to some place you've never been to, you won't get the advantages of knowing your way around, but that doesn't matter if you don't go there often.. and once you've gone there even ONCE you can instantly warp to it whenever you want.
This is grinding?
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:40:00 -
[8]
..Maps.
And yes, I agree there should be a tradeoff, which to me means limited 0km warps. Requiring that people spend days warping arround in shuttles to gates IS a grind, yes.
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:40:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 15/07/2006 01:40:32
-dp-
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Azulya
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:46:00 -
[10]
Why would they have to waste time warping around in shuttles?
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:48:00 -
[11]
Because they need the instas.
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Azulya
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:55:00 -
[12]
But you would get them automatically just through normal playing, if you have a trade route back and worth between some places, you get to instantly warp to them and stuff, after just 1 run you can instantly warp to EVERY SINGLE PLACE in your WHOLE trade route, for example. You don't need to grind or fly around in a shuttle or whatever.
Or if there like, your corporation's main system that you spend a lot of time defending, you'll get to instantly warp to everywhere you ever go in there, no need to grind or whatever.. 
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.15 01:57:00 -
[13]
But getting them that way is useless.
You need them before you can BEGIN normal operations. A trader can't have his hauler slowboting to gate after gate, it takes many times that of a dedicated fast ship. A PvPer needs those instas or he can be caught and die in an expensive ship.
If you're defending without instas, then you be caught and killed many times, and not be able to catch an enemy running on instas at other terms. You litterally can't afford NOT to have instas for the ENTIRE area.
Before you start, NOT after. On a comprehensive basis.
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Cathandra
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:09:00 -
[14]
So everyone should have a tactical advantage of knowing the space and thus being able to fly through it better in regions they haven't even stepped foot in before?
Well I would personally benefit from that and would personally like it, I would personally prefer it if there was no requirement, if you didn't have to have visited it before. But I don't think that would be very balanced. I wouldn't mind it. But I think it would mess up the game play for some other people. Such as people in big corps trying to defend their territory.
If the only thing wrong with it is the "grind" and people really wouldn't care about keeping the current game play that already exists from instances, then fine, keep it that way. But I really don't think that is as big a step in the right direction. But better then how it is now I guess. :)
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:14:00 -
[15]
MAPS! People use them TODAY, so they EXACTLY where they're going long before they ever get there. An insta is no more and no less than a map reference.
There is no "only" to grind. It is the anti-fun, and it drives people out of MMOs. Moreover, it's a contuining grind, since people do not in general stay in one place all their Eve career, but move arround.
And then we look at the pirate chokepoints, where trying to make an insta can cost you ship after ship without you ever making it because they're permacamped, not to mention the 0.0 entrance systems, and, and...
It's a HUGE step back, it's introducing an unfun grind, it's drastically increasing the rewards snipers make, it's devaluing player skill in favour of time played it's... and on.
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Cathandra
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:17:00 -
[16]
Yes I was trying to explain that I would like this going your way on that point. I would like it if we didn't even have to visit places to do the close up warps. I just thought that that would be unbalanced and CCP wouldn't consider it. But since that is the way it is right now and most people like it, okay, let's have it that way.
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:18:00 -
[17]
Heh. My point is that it SHOULD require sacrifice, but not of a grind-sort for non-explorers. Hence...you can carry a *limited* number of 0 km warps...
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Cathandra
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:29:00 -
[18]
Well then everyone will have to put a bunch of bookmarks in stations to swap them out.. so there will be just as many bookmarks at before..
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:34:00 -
[19]
Eh, my idea goes into into BM chips and more...explained it quite a few times now.
It's not supposed to be any sort of idea, it's just supposed to be BETTER than today.
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Cathandra
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:39:00 -
[20]
Meh.
Give everyone jump drives, smaller ships use less fuel, get rid of all jump gates, let us warp to within 500m of anything.
There. No more instas.
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.15 02:50:00 -
[21]
And no more PvP. Whathey!
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Cathandra
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Posted - 2006.07.15 03:09:00 -
[22]
Why no more PVP?
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Simoyd
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Posted - 2006.07.17 13:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cathandra
Why no more PVP?
I'm sorry that this sentance of mine is unproductive, but you're an idiot Cathandra.
Although I havnt seen any other posts explaining the BM-chips that you said you've explained so many times (because I'm a n00b), I do think it's an ingenious idea (decrease server load due to BM's being non duplicate and prevent scamming because it's a normally traded item). I agree with the anti grinding. That's why I play eve and not other MMOs.
Could you maybe post a link to a thread where you have explained it in detail so that I can read it and maybe contribute? The topic is interesting :)
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Avon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 13:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
MAPS! People use them TODAY, so they EXACTLY where they're going long before they ever get there. An insta is no more and no less than a map reference.
Tbh I wouldn't mind being able to just write down the co-ordinates for my house and insta home from work.
It would be much faster than driving all the way there.
Unfortunately, having a map reference does not allow me to skip the journey to my destination.
If only.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:07:00 -
[25]
Maya, you have given me the germ of an idea.
What is a bookmark/insta after all? It is just a piece of data. Where is data stored? In a computer.
Would it be possible to reduce your ship's CPU for each bookmark loaded into it? Certain haulers (Badger) have loads of spare CPU, and so would finally get an advantage - long haul unsafe trade routes. Ships that chose to NOT use BM's would have a fitting advantage.
I would envisage a separate window for bookmarks - kind of like the drone bay - which you could drop them into.
The only disadvantage I see with this is that it does nothing to reduce the massive load on the server that bookmarks have become. People will still be storing, copying and selling them just as much as now.
I still think that one of the best "partial" solutions to this would be to increase the size of gates massively. If you are BM'ing a station, then one BM is sufficent, regardless of point of origin. For gates, you need multiple BM's due to the smaller size of the "sphere" that a gate occupies.
So, accepting that BM's will stay, and trying to do something to lighten the load at the same time.
Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
SlyPanther
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:13:00 -
[26]
Make bookmarks client side only and make it so they can not be copied or traded. This would hurt a lot of people, and I know I myself would find this a pain due to making an Insta to say my favorite roid belt, and then having to jump my hauler out there to make another bookmark for it too.
There is bound to be a good option out there for this, after watching EVE TV and hearing roughly how many bookmarks are stored, I shuddered to think the load on the server when people trade 200+ on escrow.
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Steve Erwin - He's like Fosters, only for export and never for use in Australia |
Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:24:00 -
[27]
Avon, and what does that have to do with Eve? Do you have a Casimir effect warp drive? If so, please share with the public.
This is more akin to knowing where someones room is in an apartment building, and going straight there rather than having to contact and wait for the building caretaker to tell you which one they live in.
Grey Area, er...
So basically, only industrials and certain BS which can fit setups which leave lots of CPU free can ever insta? Ships would have to drop whatever fitting was needed to fit the required instas, period, and thus basically you're robbing large amounts of CPU which selectively nerfs certain ships more than others.
No, it's a measure which shouldn't be used to punish players for a requirement within the game system, but rather a limit designed to make players consider their requirements and get BM's appropriately.
You're RAISING the load they place on the player dramatically.
Moreover, with the lower BM copy priority there is no evidence whatsoever that they cause lag at this time.
SlyPanther, so I need to fly arround 500+ jumps on my own before I can operate in a region. Uhm, grind. And shrug, not much load at all for just 200.
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SlyPanther
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:32:00 -
[28]
I know Maya Rkell, it's going to be extremely difficult to find a solution to the Bookmark problem, and my idea isn't the best either. I just threw it out there as something else that maybe could be improved on.
What about you could only trade bookmarks with Corp members or people in your address book? Maybe if someone can come up with a viable solution CCP will jump on the idea. I love my insta's, I use them for mining Ops, heading to 0.0 and coming out. Not to dodge pirates or enemy ships so much, but to shorten the trips in larger ships like Industrials and Battleships. I shudder to think of the time it takes for Freighters, Carriers and Dreads to move around, and with no Insta's, heading to a station could be a week long trip.
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Steve Erwin - He's like Fosters, only for export and never for use in Australia |
Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:35:00 -
[29]
I'd rather have corp bookmarks rather than "tradeable with corpmates", cuts down on the copying.
People in your address book? mm...you can add anyone at any time so eh.
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Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:46:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Grey Area, er...
So basically, only industrials and certain BS which can fit setups which leave lots of CPU free can ever insta? Ships would have to drop whatever fitting was needed to fit the required instas, period, and thus basically you're robbing large amounts of CPU which selectively nerfs certain ships more than others.
We've been here before...yes that is what I'm suggesting and I'm not going to apologise for it. I may however suggest that some ships get a certain increase in CPU to allow for a minimal set of bookmarks. The trouble is we come at this argument from a differing viewpoint. You think Bookmarks are a necessary evil, and I think they are just evil.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
No, it's a measure which shouldn't be used to punish players for a requirement within the game system, but rather a limit designed to make players consider their requirements and get BM's appropriately.
You're RAISING the load they place on the player dramatically.
You state that like it's fact, but it's not. Bookmarks are not an exploit, but they are a PLAYER created use of a system that was never intended to be used in this way. CCP didn't think of a way to stop it in good time, and now it is so prevalent that it has become an integral part of daily play. THAT DOES NOT MAKE IT PART OF THE GAME.
Originally by: Maya Rkell
Moreover, with the lower BM copy priority there is no evidence whatsoever that they cause lag at this time.
Never mistake absence of evidence for evidence of absence.
My single objection to bookmarks really does centre around the ability to sell them - or more specifially, the ability to COPY and sell them. if you could only sell originals, I wouldn't have so much of a problem (and, I feel, they wouldn't be so useful).
The barriers to Bookmark trading are ridiculously low. I'm an Empire Carebear and I could get a full set of bookmarks for PureBlind for a few mill. Especially when I can then copy them all and put the whole set back on Escrow for EXACTLY what I payed for them. Net cost to me : Zero. Surely even you can see that's just plain WRONG?
Monty Pythons spoof of the EVE Forums;
Palin: "Is this the right room for an argument?"
Cleese: "I've told you once." |
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