but I would Strongly believe that a lot will gain a C2 static.

C4s are pretty high up there solo ISK/hour wise, second only to C5s. Doubling it is extremely over the top and no you should not be able to jump caps into C4s.
C2s are FAR more important to address.
In any case, it's being worked on.

C4 site's aren't all that bad. Move the spawns a little closer and they would be fine.

I mean I've had Data sites where the last spawn was so far away it spawned off grid.

C4 sites are attually some of the best out there.

I think Adriana means to include escalation isk in c5's which is about a bil isk vs the normal atm 80 mil per site in c4's. Now there will be more traffic aka more risk there should be more reward which I agree. Also please ccp fix the broken c4 relic/data sites. After a can has been hacked successfully the next waves usually don't spawn. C1's and c2's definitely need a boost in isk. C3's atm seem good were they are. You can make almost the same amount in a c3 with a tengu as a golem in a c4 atm. Also I agree no caps should be able to travel through c4's .

I think Adriana means to include escalation isk in c5's which is about a bil isk vs the normal atm 80 mil per site in c4's. Now there will be more traffic aka more risk there should be more reward which I agree. Also please ccp fix the broken c4 relic/data sites. After a can has been hacked successfully the next waves usually don't spawn. C1's and c2's definitely need a boost in isk. C3's atm seem good were they are. You can make almost the same amount in a c3 with a tengu as a golem in a c4 atm. Im for keeping the mass limitations as they are in c4's.

C4s are pretty high up there solo ISK/hour wise, second only to C5s. Doubling it is extremely over the top and no you should not be able to jump caps into C4s.
C2s are FAR more important to address.
In any case, it's being worked on.

He's mad because he can't sustain his corp off home sites. He doesn't want to have to run sites in his static. He wants the Thanatos he spent weeks building to not be worthless.

Having a C4 static, I'm all for improving the income potential in C4 system. They don't need it, but I'm sure as heck not going to complain if they get it.

I'd say first to look at lower class income, and then to address the fact that the only use for Sleeper salvage and WH gas is for a single line of ships that CCP wants to nerf into the ground. Maybe once they finish fixing what ain't broke, they'll get around to fixing what is.

Having a C4 static, I'm all for improving the income potential in C4 system. They don't need it, but I'm sure as heck not going to complain if they get it.

I'd say first to look at lower class income, and then to address the fact that the only use for Sleeper salvage and WH gas is for a single line of ships that CCP wants to nerf into the ground. Maybe once they finish fixing what ain't broke, they'll get around to fixing what is.

I tend to agree with this, and on the subject of WH loot only being used for T3 production maybe it is time to add to the "T3/WH" line of products. I would like to see the Sleeper missiles being added to the player arsenal, I don't really know about stats but you could even make them disallowed in K-space due to some "interference" with the local/Concord network that prevents them from locking targets. This would allow them to be a small type of WH-only content, and even if they aren't limited to WH's I would still like to see them added to the game. The mystery surrounding Sleeper tech would allow the Dev's to create some real off-the-wall uses for Sleeper missiles. Just a thought, and I know it has plenty of holes in it.

Granted that is over 2+ years ago now and stuff have changed.

I'm counting escalations too.
ISK per account on C5/6 escalations is only slightly higher than solo C4s and then only if youre running them with minimum numbers which most people do not.
You also need to commit a fleet that is way more skill intensive and is worth probably 10x as much as whatever ship youre running C4s solo in.

To be fair though the comment about nerfing T3's into the ground was made what like 2 years ago at this point? It was made by someone other than CCP Fozzie, and a lot of other balancing has happened in the meantime which may make that comment no longer valid.

Lower class income problems are not the isk per site but the spawn rate of the sites. Still is somewhat good. I live in a c3 and I could use an extra spawn or two a day.

P.S.: C4s are not lower class systems. They are.... something.

C4 sites are attually some of the best out there.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Have you tried to run a corp (5-10members) in a C4 with all corp members revenue coming from anoms alone?
If one person were to solo all the sites then what exactly is left for the remaining corp members? I encourage you to approach this from a different standpoint. Don't just run a handful of sites then compare isk/hr. It just doesn't work that way. That approach would be sensible if wh sites were infinite but we all know they aren't.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Have you tried to run a corp (5-10members) in a C4 with all corp members revenue coming from anoms alone?
If one person were to solo all the sites then what exactly is left for the remaining corp members? I encourage you to approach this from a different standpoint. Don't just run a handful of sites then compare isk/hr. It just doesn't work that way. That approach would be sensible if wh sites were infinite but we all know they aren't.

Considering my alt corp is a 5 to 10 man corp who lives in a c4. most the isk is from sites although some do pi. Now on to the if one person runs all the sites, what do the others have left. This is a issue for you and your corp to sort This has no relevence on how much isk/hour sites are. If you are farming in your static. Then sites could easily be considered infinite. If your not doing anything in your static more fall you. but don't come bitching about stuff that is most likely a corp issue of yours.

I'm more than happy to hear what your different stand point is. infact why don't you just go and work out your different stand point and send me all the information.

Welp, first time the forum has eaten my post.

My bad about earlier. I know you are working hard and I was just trying to explain things from a different point of view. Back then, I was giving an example of a possible scenario. I never clearly stated that one guy in my corp was running all the sites. As I said earlier, I don't think balancing combat anoms by isk/hr is the optimal way to go about it or by comparing isk/hr of solo C4 running to that of 5 or so guys running C5s.

My main point is that the difference in isk making potential between a C4 to a C5 is too huge given that they are just a single class apart and even now more of a concern given the increased exposure of C4s.
For example, running 8 combat sites in a C4 yields around ~750mil to be shared by 2-3 pilots and it would take around a week or longer for another 8 sites to spawn. 8 combat sites in a C5, on the other hand, with full escalations yields around 5-6bil on average multipled by 4 so about 20-25bil a week to be shared by anywhere from 5 to 15 pilots or possibly more. Either way, each person is making X5 or way more than your average C4 resident.

It's easy to tell me to pack my things and move to a hole with a more lucrative static but it doesn't fix this huge discrepancy in isk making potential that's just not meant to exist and is possibly one of the reasons why C4s aren't seeing that much activity.

Problem is there are so many viariable you could take in to account if you wanted. the amount of isk on the field to run sites,s the fact caps will haev to be stuck in a site due to seige or triage, the sp needed to fly stuff.isk per hour is by far the simplest way of looking at stufflike this and it might not be 100% the best way but its better than most the other ways of comparing stuff.

But one simple variable should really taken into account:
Corporations living in c1 to c4 have to leave their home and run their statics/connections, else there's no income at all for the members.
In C5/6 this is the opposite. Main income comes from farming escalations in the home system.
Seeing this together with the other changes it becomes even more imballanced. C5/6 mechanics are being kept with the argument having a dread in siege? You can't be serious about that.
C4s today are a great solo farming ground, majority of those carebears are just alts from PvP people.
We all have to pay for our pew...

I'd like to read a statement on the escalation abuse from you or Fozzie.

Here's a crazy idea to increase low class income... Sleeper battleships spawned from capital escalations in C5/C6 space, don't drop melted nanoribbons...

Thoughts?

Pretty funny how people are coming up with false arguments.
You need 1 dread pilot and 3 more cap sitter which just warp in and go safe again to fully escalate.
One dread is shooting an escalation wave in a bit over 3 minutes. 4x3=12min to earn little bit more than what?
And since you do not run the site itself, it will respawn the next 3 days. Hm, any other wormhoe runs out of sites pretty quick.
In another thread you complain about loosing the mechanic to insta close the static which is not possible in any lower class wormhole.
No wonder you are bored and cry for content. Can you imagine that your targets don't have the income to run a srp in that dimension? In that income area any argument about the risk fielding a dread is irrellevant...
Rebalancing is not necessary. Just remove or at least fix escalations and you fix many issues in eve - also outside wh space.

PS: oh, plz dont tell me that solo escalating is not happening .. just dont plz.

Hey corbexx how is that wormhole class income list coming along?

P.S. Add a single carrier only escalation wave to c4's maybe?

c3's are done c4's nearly done and will be done before I go to iceland for the summit. (c5 and c6 I will probably try pull off the noho accountancy system)

I'm hoping I get time to test a c1 site again as it was abnormally high.

On the escalation wave I'm not to keen on cap escalation in lower class wh's. but do like the idea of a mini escalation.

I havent thought it all through yet but rough idea being ... c1 and c2 you can mini escalate with say a few bc's. c3 and c4 you could mini escalate with 3 or 4 battle ships to get some extra sleepers to kill. Again its a really early idea which hasn't been thought through yet. I've spoke to a few people about it and they seem to like the idea.

c3's are done c4's nearly done and will be done before I go to iceland for the summit. (c5 and c6 I will probably try pull off the noho accountancy system)

I'm hoping I get time to test a c1 site again as it was abnormally high.

On the escalation wave I'm not to keen on cap escalation in lower class wh's. but do like the idea of a mini escalation.

I havent thought it all through yet but rough idea being ... c1 and c2 you can mini escalate with say a few bc's. c3 and c4 you could mini escalate with 3 or 4 battle ships to get some extra sleepers to kill. Again its a really early idea which hasn't been thought through yet. I've spoke to a few people about it and they seem to like the idea.

Lot of ppl rat these sites with T3's I think, and mini-escalating with T3's would help close the production/destruction loop for these ships and raise demand for them. Virtuous circle stuff. Keep in mind this would more than likely increase supply of T3 salvage so it would be better to have T3 ships put at risk for this so more of them get blown up. Lore might benefit because "sleepers get pissed off seeing their own technology used against them", etc.

If they take the time to add more escalations but not roaming sleepers, i think i might kick a puppy into the road in anger!

On a serious note, sub capital escalations should NOT be added to low class. The system could be gamed too easily given how easy it is for a sub cap to escape a site compared to capitals and it takes away the only really unique part of C5/C6 space.

I don't think payouts needs increasing at all but if it's going to happen, the best way would be to increase the value of blue loot... and if you do that in lower classes, you should increase blue loot value in high class wormholes by the same amount to keep the income gap the same.

At the end of the day, i think most people would agree that we need new things that are constructed from sleeper salvage and this should take priority over small income increases that do very little to improve the game.

I really doubt that a lower class income buff is going to threaten the competitive advantages of higher class holes and cap escalations there. The latter is already the highest gross isk/hr in the game (says Fozzie). Narrowing it somewhat will still leave a reasonable gap.

I know ppl like to talk their own book, so I'll take this post with a grain of salt. Having said that, I don't really know if there's a "perfect" way to give lower class wormholes an income buff. I just know that it needs to be done to incentivize more players to take the risk of running wormhole sites and create a PvE/PvP "food chain" (content) in lower class holes. I suppose the alternatives are to nerf incursions, nullsec and maybe FW (lol not gonna happen), or to just let lower class holes remain basically a wasteland. New content would have unpredictable effects and could itself embody an income buff I suppose, but not knowing what the content is or if any is forthcoming, there's nothing really to say on it. In any case, I don't see the alternatives as viable so here we are.

I really doubt that a lower class income buff is going to threaten the competitive advantages of higher class holes and cap escalations there. The latter is already the highest gross isk/hr in the game (says Fozzie). Narrowing it somewhat will still leave a reasonable gap (and there should be a reasonable gap).

Escalation farming on a minimalistic but very effective way goes up to 1.5b/hour using 4 toons while having 1 dread in siege only.

New content IS the perfect way to do it because it comes with the additional benefit of revitalising wormhole space and attracting more players to wormhole space.

The way i see it, every class of wormhole comes with its pros and cons so if people are not happy with how much isk they are earning, why aren't they moving to a system what suits their needs? The fact is, it's not all about site running in C2/C1 space, as many people make their money from PI.

That said, i'm not opposed to adding additional value to sites but if you're going to add escalations, it should be capital (carrier only) escalations to balance the risk reward. C1 system should not be changed.

New content IS the perfect way to do it because it comes with the additional benefit of revitalising wormhole space and attracting more players to wormhole space.

The way i see it, every class of wormhole comes with its pros and cons so if people are not happy with how much isk they are earning, why aren't they moving to a system what suits their needs? The fact is, it's not all about site running in C2/C1 space, as many people make their money from PI.

That said, i'm not opposed to adding additional value to sites but if you're going to add escalations, it should be capital (carrier only) escalations to balance the risk reward. C1 system should not be changed.

It may be for a small group but its not sustainable once you have done your sites thats it. 5 sites in polaris we could do in 25-30 mins assuming travel time thats 3.5b in 30 mins split between the group. its also 3.5b for that day. which works out 146m a hour (if you do that) for the group keep in mind this is the group income which for 5 to 10 people would mean, 700 to 350m per person for the 30 mins of burst farming. or 30 to 15m a hour for the day which if you look at it like that is pretty ******. its every easy to make stuff look good or bad depending on how you look at it

I've seen incursion groups make 200plus m a hour (not including lp) and they moan about how cap farming is more isk per hour, which it could be depending on size of group. the difference is you can potentially run incursions all day long if you want. for very little risk.

On the escalation wave I'm not to keen on cap escalation in lower class wh's. but do like the idea of a mini escalation.

I think escalations are part of the problem rather than the solution as they encourage staying at home and barring the doors rather than farming the static.

Instead of adding escalations why not add some faction spawns (with possible faction drops, it doesnt matter if it is modules, subsystems, implants or even deployables as long as it is something that has market value) that sometimes occur upon site completion. When my team does sites in null we get much more excited about some random pirate bpc, x-type, whatever than we ever did about an unusually high nano ribbon count, others probably find the rare drops fun as well. To balance the change remove / reduce to metal scraps the salvage on the current capital escalation waves; retain the blue books which is where most of the isk is.

Net effect on isk for upperclass wormholes could be more or less neutral as faction bits replace what is lost from salvage. It would also lead to more emphasis on completing the site rather than using it as an ongoing spawn trigger. Down chain farming more be more attractive which is much better than the current behavior of wishing for sites at home and not being interested in anything outside of home. For lower class wormholes it would help both by adding drops and by increased prices on nano ribbons due to scarcity.

Further, I would be interested to know if you could make multiple layouts of anoms that display the same name. Basically my point is that once people know exactly where the spawns are, it makes farming easy/fast/boring. If it could be more randomized, then there would at least be some variation to the site running. This would mostly just be variation in the locations of spawns, though bringing in a small chance to spawn a powerful NPC might also make things "interesting".

I m gonna put this discussion forward.


Burner Npc*Fleet + Wormhole Space = Profit


"There have been reports of wierd sighting on Directional Scanners about fast moving fleets, that are traveling from Wormhole to Wormhole. The Rumors about Raiding Parties of the Notorious Sansha Nation are not confirmed and pure speculation at this point. Although many Capsuleer Distress Calls from the Class 4 Region have been reported there was 0 confirmation as for noone ever survived such a raid."

Involving Gamerules / Mechanics:
- Combat Scanning
- Advanced understanding of the rules and ranges of engagement
- Overheating may be mandatory as it is helpful with current burners
- Multiple areas of engagement (Asteriod Fields, Posses, Safespots, Wormholes)
- They use wormholes
- Advanced Electronic Warfare and Remote Reps (not huge EHP)
- NO CAPITALS!

Loot:
Worth it.

I m gonna put this discussion forward.


Burner Npc*Fleet + Wormhole Space = Profit


"There have been reports of wierd sighting on Directional Scanners about fast moving fleets, that are traveling from Wormhole to Wormhole. The Rumors about Raiding Parties of the Notorious Sansha Nation are not confirmed and pure speculation at this point. Although many Capsuleer Distress Calls from the Class 4 Region have been reported there was 0 confirmation as for noone ever survived such a raid."

Involving Gamerules / Mechanics:
- Combat Scanning
- Advanced understanding of the rules and ranges of engagement
- Overheating may be mandatory as it is helpful with current burners
- Multiple areas of engagement (Asteriod Fields, Posses, Safespots, Wormholes)
- They use wormholes
- Advanced Electronic Warfare and Remote Reps (not huge EHP)
- NO CAPITALS!

Loot:
Worth it.

I was already thinking about burner sites for J-Space, but Burner fleets are a way better! That-¦s a really great idea.

How about if blue loot gets multiplied by how many players are in fleet doing the site? That way solo income stays the same if that's the issue.

PI Alt brigade in Reapers reporting for duty.

PI Alt brigade in Reapers reporting for duty.

Better: Zephyrs

Or even better: Pods.

How about it to work you would need to do damage to sleepers?

Or even better: Pods.

How about it to work you would need to do damage to sleepers?