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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.17 15:44:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Malachon Draco
I.e. local is a defensive tool. Nerfing local will benefit fastmoving ganksquads since they can cover great distances unnoticed and without giving people warning as to their presence.
Riiiiight. And who are these gank-squads going to kill? They are just going to magically guess which system has people in it, if they are hostile, and their exact numbers?
Removing local penalises both sides equally.
Well, even if I assume that the map feature which shows number of people in local is removed (which would of course happen as well), would it be that hard to guess where people are in 0.0?
BoB space, let me guess. I look for systems with either a station in it, deep negative sec rating and/or high end minerals. Bingo, ratters, miners and haulers I bet.
ASCN space, well, its terribly hard to guess maybe, but a safe bet would be that there are people in AZN, RIT, K-9 at almost all times of the day.
Spend a few days in a covops in any region and I bet you can pinpoint all the hotspots where people are likely to be. All you need then is a gang of 2-3 vagabonds and maybe a covops and away you go. Jump in system, open scanner, jump to sun probably, scan belts wthin 15 AU of the sun, spread out if you see a target or warp to the next gate and check the next system. All of this undetected until you find a target which you blow to smithereens without a second of warning.
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Valan
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Posted - 2006.07.17 15:45:00 -
[32]
Thats the thing it creates a new profession, the 'scout'. Opposing forces take the scouts down and move accordingly. It makes for a very tactical game.
Wouldn't it suit a force like BoB down to the ground? A large marauding military force, can't see it until its on top of you. Genghis Khan in space.
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Locke DieDrake
Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2006.07.17 15:46:00 -
[33]
I have a sneaking hunch that when the new scanning changes come thru in Kali we might see local get a big nerf. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________ |
Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2006.07.17 15:46:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sergeant Spot Any replacement of local must be equal to, or better (must error towards better) for insuring enough warning for a person ratting or mining in a belt to warp out.
Why? How would the roving gang know that they are there?
You're an older veteran than I am. You know the answer.
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Infinity Ziona
The First Noble Truth
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Posted - 2006.07.17 15:46:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 17/07/2006 15:47:54
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Local has already been SEVERELY nerfed for defensive purposes. The delay on how fast it refreshes does not help defensive operations at all, but massively helps roving gangs.
You must have a different local to mine because as soon as I jump into system all my targets know prior to me loading since they have me in their address books.
You know what I would really love to see. Local remains as it is but you need to click an update button or it refreshes every 2 minutes by itself.
That way I can kill lazy stupid people.
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.07.17 15:49:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sergeant Spot Any replacement of local must be equal to, or better (must error towards better) for insuring enough warning for a person ratting or mining in a belt to warp out.
Why? How would the roving gang know that they are there?
How long does it take your scanprobeaddicts to pinpoint ships in a system? How long does it take your shipscanjokey to find a ship in a normal system? --*=*=*--
Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment. |
Avon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 16:00:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Tachy
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sergeant Spot Any replacement of local must be equal to, or better (must error towards better) for insuring enough warning for a person ratting or mining in a belt to warp out.
Why? How would the roving gang know that they are there?
How long does it take your scanprobeaddicts to pinpoint ships in a system? How long does it take your shipscanjokey to find a ship in a normal system?
So the super fast roaming gang has to stop and scan every system it passes through ... ... riiiiight, like they'd do that.
Finding ships isn't too bad when you know there is someone in the system, but what if you don't know? If you think gangs are going to drag a covert around everywhere to launch an observator in each system they pass through, I think you are sadly mistakened.
And what is preventing the 'victim' from using the same tools? Nothing - they just don't feel they should have too.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Tammarr
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Posted - 2006.07.17 16:09:00 -
[38]
Local plausible explanation: Stargates, they activate, monitor and keep statistics on who goes in our out, makes sense. Also ofc they broadcast: Hey, this guy just entered system. All talk in local is made on the systems own frequency of communication also handed out once entering so you can call for help, request repairs, talk a little with other pilots to ease the lonlyness of space.
Thus local makes perfect sense in a spacegame.
Changing it to constellation: This is actually the one idea practicaly useable and that can be kept plausible to satisfy the diffrent sides.
"Constellation local": Since space is vast and theres many systems and ftl travel etc you might end up needing to call for help and such, but noone might be there for you in "local" thus the stargate network setup communication inside a constellation in order to make it possible to reach more people. You still should have a "local is # pilots" updated due to sg handling and information going out, but you dont know whom are in your exact system unless you check.
I think I've written more than 2 cents worth.
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Infinity Ziona
The First Noble Truth
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Posted - 2006.07.17 16:17:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tammarr Local plausible explanation: Stargates, they activate, monitor and keep statistics on who goes in our out, makes sense. Also ofc they broadcast: Hey, this guy just entered system. All talk in local is made on the systems own frequency of communication also handed out once entering so you can call for help, request repairs, talk a little with other pilots to ease the lonlyness of space.
Thus local makes perfect sense in a spacegame.
Changing it to constellation: This is actually the one idea practicaly useable and that can be kept plausible to satisfy the diffrent sides.
"Constellation local": Since space is vast and theres many systems and ftl travel etc you might end up needing to call for help and such, but noone might be there for you in "local" thus the stargate network setup communication inside a constellation in order to make it possible to reach more people. You still should have a "local is # pilots" updated due to sg handling and information going out, but you dont know whom are in your exact system unless you check.
I think I've written more than 2 cents worth.
Okay we're being logical with the star gates. Lets leave anyone who logs out in a system in local. Since they didnt go through a stargate it wont 'log them out'.
Will fix log on / off traps and provide a bit of clutter to prevent the infallible EWACS local from being as effective.
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Lorth
Synchro.
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Posted - 2006.07.17 16:17:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Avon And what is preventing the 'victim' from using the same tools? Nothing - they just don't feel they should have too.
Which has been the backbone to every single "Don't nerf local" argument I have ever seen.
------------- Recruit me |
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The Gate
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Posted - 2006.07.17 16:27:00 -
[41]
If its not broken then don't fix it.
Local is fine the way it is, just people who can't get a kill that are complaining, besides some peoples arguments are that if u remove local then scanning can be improved to show the same info, so why not just leave local as it is anyway then ? |
daPreacher
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Posted - 2006.07.17 16:29:00 -
[42]
Edited by: daPreacher on 17/07/2006 16:29:43 edit: urgh forgot to change post to my main
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Unholy Preacher
Trade Consortium Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.17 16:30:00 -
[43]
Originally by: daPreacher Edited by: daPreacher on 17/07/2006 16:29:43 edit: urgh forgot to change post to my main
A cool alternative i was thinking about is that, when you do remove local you implement a sensor network anchorable item. The system scanner sensor would have to be anchored near the sun. It would never need fueling like a station since it would rely on solar power. Any alliance can mount these sensor networks in their space. These sensor networks would be connected to any player belonging to that alliance. They would show who is in local. These system sensors would should require some effort to take down but not as much effort as taking down a POS.
Thats just my two cents, it would defintely go a long way to really making 0.0 "homes" for alliances. It would also provide cool opportunities for covert ops ppl. System sensors would be delayed in scanning any intruders. This would make for interesting small covert ops bombers to slip through and to take them out. Defitnely adds a good dose of role play and semi makes sense.
Im probalby guessing all these ideas are unusuable tho as it would add alot of strain on an already overburdened network load as it is. But defintely would be cool ! :D
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Burnhard Brutor
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Posted - 2006.07.17 16:44:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Unholy Preacher
Originally by: daPreacher Edited by: daPreacher on 17/07/2006 16:29:43 edit: urgh forgot to change post to my main
A cool alternative i was thinking about is that, when you do remove local you implement a sensor network anchorable item. The system scanner sensor would have to be anchored near the sun. It would never need fueling like a station since it would rely on solar power. Any alliance can mount these sensor networks in their space. These sensor networks would be connected to any player belonging to that alliance. They would show who is in local. These system sensors would should require some effort to take down but not as much effort as taking down a POS.
Thats just my two cents, it would defintely go a long way to really making 0.0 "homes" for alliances. It would also provide cool opportunities for covert ops ppl. System sensors would be delayed in scanning any intruders. This would make for interesting small covert ops bombers to slip through and to take them out. Defitnely adds a good dose of role play and semi makes sense.
Im probalby guessing all these ideas are unusuable tho as it would add alot of strain on an already overburdened network load as it is. But defintely would be cool ! :D
Yes, the sensor network is a cool idea. Just removing local is a dumbass idea, because it benefits the attacker much more than the defender (unless you move resources around randomly and/or stations around randomly).
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Lorth
Synchro.
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Posted - 2006.07.17 16:48:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Burnhard Brutor
Yes, the sensor network is a cool idea. Just removing local is a dumbass idea, because it benefits the attacker much more than the defender (unless you move resources around randomly and/or stations around randomly).
Not really. All the defender has to do is open up the scanner. The same tools used to find someone, are just as easily used to avoid someone.
------------- Recruit me |
Tasuric Orka
Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:01:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Tasuric Orka on 17/07/2006 17:01:39 Local is crap, i agree. In highsec it might be used for smack or friendly banter, but in lowsec and 0.0 its just a uber scanner. This should change, people should not appear in local unless they talk, and the map should show only a weekly average of people in space every 30 minutes.
Now, to make things bearable other things will have to replace it. Active radar for every ship (range depending on skills and ship/mods), it scans the space around you, this could cover an entire system (bs with some sort of sensor module that renders it inept at offensive combat), or just several AU in the case of a frigate fitted to gank. The little radar screen at the bottom of the screen that i have seen in the pictures of beta should return for this purpose. Filtering like was mentioned before should be included.
-POS's should be able to be fitted with scanning arrays that can cover everything but the largest systems, revealing every ship that isnĘt cloaked to everyone docked there.
-Cheap defensive sentries that can gank everything below a cruiser, and seriously hamper a cruiser when used in big numbers (max number per gate hard coded)
I think this and some other modifications will make eve more interesting overall, before an assault can take place the alliance will have to bring in scouts in force (sentries remember), then a reasonable force to cover the BS with its expensive scanning array, after which they can proceed with their business. If they lose their scanning BS (which are easy to spot due to some fancy effect) they are effectively blind.
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Tanjent
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:03:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Tanjent on 17/07/2006 17:05:12 There's always room for improvement and cool ideas to add to games. I would like to see EVE working well without quarks before new features are added. There are many so I'll only list the one I most recently had to deal with. The character I chose as my default character here on the messageboards 3x, click update and see "Settings were successfully updated" still is not the default character. I must reselect Tanjent every visit or post.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -Bertrand Russell
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DigitalCommunist
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:07:00 -
[48]
current local = consentual pvp
consentual pvp = not EVE
Thus, I win this thread. I'm up for local chat being open, but only show active speakers. Even if you delay it, or have the number showing, its still not enough to have proper fleet smackdowns.
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:10:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Tachy
Originally by: Avon
Originally by: Sergeant Spot Any replacement of local must be equal to, or better (must error towards better) for insuring enough warning for a person ratting or mining in a belt to warp out.
Why? How would the roving gang know that they are there?
How long does it take your scanprobeaddicts to pinpoint ships in a system? How long does it take your shipscanjokey to find a ship in a normal system?
So the super fast roaming gang has to stop and scan every system it passes through ... ... riiiiight, like they'd do that.
Finding ships isn't too bad when you know there is someone in the system, but what if you don't know? If you think gangs are going to drag a covert around everywhere to launch an observator in each system they pass through, I think you are sadly mistakened.
And what is preventing the 'victim' from using the same tools? Nothing - they just don't feel they should have too.
The difference is that a roving gang will have a clear MO, jump into system, scan, jump to center, scan, jump to other gate, scan, next system. Takes 2 minutes per system. And they know which systems to scan. Doesn't take a genius to figure out where people will be ratting and mining.
That is in no way comparable to a defender who is sitting somewhere mining or ratting for 3 hours and you expect him to scan every 30 seconds for those 3 hours on the off-chance a hostile jumps in?
All it does is make defending against ganksquads even more impossibly boring than it already is.
If you nerf local, you need to make it impossible for people to logout in space except by leaving their ship behind, and make it possible to find cloaked people in system. Otherwise this game is ******.
That is the difference.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:16:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tasuric Orka Edited by: Tasuric Orka on 17/07/2006 17:01:39 Local is crap, i agree. In highsec it might be used for smack or friendly banter, but in lowsec and 0.0 its just a uber scanner. This should change, people should not appear in local unless they talk, and the map should show only a weekly average of people in space every 30 minutes.
Now, to make things bearable other things will have to replace it. Active radar for every ship (range depending on skills and ship/mods), it scans the space around you, this could cover an entire system (bs with some sort of sensor module that renders it inept at offensive combat), or just several AU in the case of a frigate fitted to gank. The little radar screen at the bottom of the screen that i have seen in the pictures of beta should return for this purpose. Filtering like was mentioned before should be included.
-POS's should be able to be fitted with scanning arrays that can cover everything but the largest systems, revealing every ship that isnĘt cloaked to everyone docked there.
-Cheap defensive sentries that can gank everything below a cruiser, and seriously hamper a cruiser when used in big numbers (max number per gate hard coded)
I think this and some other modifications will make eve more interesting overall, before an assault can take place the alliance will have to bring in scouts in force (sentries remember), then a reasonable force to cover the BS with its expensive scanning array, after which they can proceed with their business. If they lose their scanning BS (which are easy to spot due to some fancy effect) they are effectively blind.
Something like this would be doable, but only a nerf to local would be horrible for gameplay IMO. Defenders against ganksquads are extremely worse off than attackers currently, that needs to change anyway.
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Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:18:00 -
[51]
Kill the map kill location agents kill local I'm not going out.
Remind me about The Maze.
I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message. |
Joram McRory
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:24:00 -
[52]
Having local as a chat window is pretty good when you want to talk to people around you, not the whole corp/alliance. Whether people show up in it or not without talkings, just saves some time.
As for local as an early warning:
Well in RP terms it is pretty poor - for my early warning system I'd want sec stautus, standing status, ship type etc...
In actual fact I think these should really be available in the scanner window - a system scan tab that shows all of the above in a little table, that updates every 10 secs or so. Ok it would make hunting people a little harder, but would be far more realistic. I mean ffs we are supposed to be flying space ships in EvE, not sailing boats. As the ability to ascertain all the above information exists in game (via the scanner and "show info" on local) adding my "system scanner" wouldn't be changing anything.
Well ofc that isn't true it would be changing the completley un-realistic multi mouse clicks it takes me to do it now. Is that a nerf, or just removing another "grind" from the game?
I guess I'll need my flame suit for this: but if I was designing a space ship to operate in a hostile environment, I'd probably spec in a big red light on the dash that flashed if a known enemy (low sec, or low standings) was in range of my scanner :-)
I might be pre-empting Kali - but this sort of thing should definately be available where you have system sov. Joram
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Jet Collins
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:25:00 -
[53]
I need it. I'm a freindly converstionalaist and if there is no local who am I going to talk to
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dalman
MASS
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:30:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Kaeten tbh i think local works abit more to the advantage of ppl who don't to fight...
tbh i think local works abit more to the advantage of ppl who don't want to fight BUT ONLY GANK...
Yes, I'm the guy who can take a ride in a pimp-ship solo in 0.0 (ie, no second account scout, no corp/ally mates around).
And it's already damn too difficult.
BRING BACK THE INSTANT MAP INSTEAD!
Lack of information favours blobbing. Fact 1. And blobbing is bad. We already have way too much of the lame blobbers around. Fact 2. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me |
Grim Vandal
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:34:00 -
[55]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist current local = consentual pvp
consentual pvp = not EVE
Thus, I win this thread. I'm up for local chat being open, but only show active speakers. Even if you delay it, or have the number showing, its still not enough to have proper fleet smackdowns.
I agree, digi wins the thread
Even only numbers showing or local being delayed is simply not enough of a change.
Greetings Grim |
Plutoinum
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:40:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 17/07/2006 17:45:26
Originally by: Tasuric Orka
I think this and some other modifications will make eve more interesting overall, before an assault can take place the alliance will have to bring in scouts in force (sentries remember), then a reasonable force to cover the BS with its expensive scanning array, after which they can proceed with their business. If they lose their scanning BS (which are easy to spot due to some fancy effect) they are effectively blind.
Sentries ? It sounds that you want to secure 0.0 so much that gank squads have no chance, but only serious alliance fleets. I'm afraid that in this case 0.0 becomes a carebear heaven, where alliance farm isk most of the time. That shall never happen.
Currently the system is already flawed in 0.0, because you don't need any human skill to avoid to get ganked e.g. when you are ratting.
In my time in Curse I've been ratting several hundreds of hours with my alt since day one in 0.0 and I've only lost one BS in that time in the beginning due to gankers, but only because I had no experience. Since I'm in -V-, I haven't lost a single BS while ratting either, although it's my only real source of income and I've almost been visited by hostiles during each hunting session. So only one BS loss during a ratting session in over a year due to players for someone, who lives from ratting.
We need an intelligent solution that requires some brain from the attacker and the defender, though I don't know how it should look like.
At the moment it's a no-brainer:
Hostile enters system => warp to safe. Ok, solved, I'm out of danger, I decide what to do next ( scout with another char the surrounding area, check intel channels etc. ). Everyone understands that after he got ganked once or twice.
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:51:00 -
[57]
Originally by: hired goon It has already been said that local should be removed, but will not be, because of massive damage to subscriber numbers.
Link or quote plz.
Delay? Oh right, it hides JUST the hunters long enough to get ganks. Sigh.
Removing local penalises the defenders. There are only a limited number of good systems, with a limited number of locations and there are only so many chokepoints. It's far easier for a group of hunters to check than it is for their prey to be refreshing the scan window every 3 seconds (boring, RSI inducing and seriously distracting), as they would have to. (And with the 10-15 second delay you sometimes get, that's just in time to realise you're dead...)
Anchored items? Sigh, this is entirely predicated on fixed border alliances. It utterly screws over the entire concept of vassal corps, it gets rid of neutrals and makes the pirate regions near uninhabitable rather than profitable. It's a huge barrier to 0.0 entry which existing alliance WILL milk for all its worth to deter newer players and alliances.
DC, so people don't catch and kill each other? WAIT, THEY DO! You lose this thread.
A "proper" fleet smackdown, per you, can only be done when neither side knows anything about the other? Wait, that's the situation in which you STOP, and camp a gate. Because you can't afford to throw away a fleet engaging a blob of unknown size which might be larger.
It STRONGLY favours those with spys in the other alliance. And we know who favours them.
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Quarantine
Federation of Synthetic Persons YouWhat
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:52:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Lorth Not really. All the defender has to do is open up the scanner. The same tools used to find someone, are just as easily used to avoid someone.
Uh? Little difference being that the attacker only has to scan a few times to have intel on the system, while a defender would have to continually hit the scan button all the time to avoid being ganked.
Removing local would be an option if there is some kind of alternative that gives an equal chance to both attacker and defender to escape/catch the prey. That would either be a warning that someone entered local, without identification, or a continously refreshing scanner.
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DigitalCommunist
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.17 17:53:00 -
[59]
It strongly favours spies over game mechanics?
Oh no..!
Purchasing Complex Fullerene Shards, contact me ingame. |
Avon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.17 18:03:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Malachon Draco Doesn't take a genius to figure out where people will be ratting and mining.
In which case it would take an idiot to rat or mine there.
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
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