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Eran Mintor
Esoteric Philosophy Imperial Outlaws.
634
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Posted - 2014.08.14 20:45:00 -
[91] - Quote
Jandice Ymladris wrote:The problem many have with your comments is, you claim you care about the survivors, yet propose a course of action that will lead to the death of 4034 people rather then 2034 people.
Well see that's the trick; If there's no survivors then you don't have to care about them. Problem solved.
-Eran
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Odelya d'Hanguest
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES 24eme Legion Etrangere
402
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Posted - 2014.08.14 21:28:00 -
[92] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:A multi-race Private Military Contractor is hired by Amarrians to kill an Amarrian. The collateral lives lost are Minmatar. Is anyone surprised that the Vendor has not been told to respect the human shields of the target by the client? With all due respect, the notion that all slaves are Minmatar is racist. The notion that Nauplius is Amarr is abhorrent. Book of Prayers GÇö GalNet Profile GÇö Viva la Legion! GÇö Laudetur Khanid! |

Desiderya
Pyre Falcon Defence and Security Imperial Outlaws.
794
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Posted - 2014.08.14 22:14:00 -
[93] - Quote
Hopefully she's learnt a bit more about boarding than half a year ago. Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. |

Ashlar Vellum
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
119
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Posted - 2014.08.15 00:32:00 -
[94] - Quote
Eran Mintor wrote:Ashlar Vellum wrote:In the grand scheme of things your 1000 are not even a drop in the ocean. Certainly 1000 out of several trillion seems irrelevant if you are using mathematical logic. Unfortunately, the reality is that it only takes one life to change the course of a history. With that said, I don't see anyone killing this mans resolve by hunting him down but instead strengthening his determination. After all, with so many threads about him on the front page, he's raking in more attention than a lingerie model in a Brutor barracks. Sometimes it's best to ignore griefers, psychopaths, and step-parents. Eventually they lose their steam, unless you keep throwing wood in the fire. -Eran Absolutely true. My point was mostly about using human life as a leverage of any sort against capsuleers, it's like saying to a hungry slaver-hound you will pet it backwards if it won't stop biting you. |

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1219
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Posted - 2014.08.15 07:42:00 -
[95] - Quote
Nauplius wrote:I am less alone in the mass killing of filthy Minmatar subhuman slaves than I was yesterday.
On 2014.08.12 at 21:55 in the Mehatoor system a small fleet belonging to the Stormcrows corporation destroyed an unarmed, harmless Bestower piloted by myself and carrying 4,034 Slaves. 2,034 Slaves perished.
When I reported this shocking event to the Summit channel, I was met with not only indifference but vigorous defense of the Stormcrows' actions. To those of you who consider me a monster I offer this quote of unknown origin: "When you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back at you."
In the State, we call it just "collateral damage". Nothing to see here. |

Diana Kim
State Protectorate Caldari State
1219
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Posted - 2014.08.15 07:45:00 -
[96] - Quote
Elmund Egivand wrote:During combat, a few had to be sacrificed for the benefit of many. If you weren't a minmatar, I could have said that you might even understand Caldari someday. Unfortunately, just a coincidence.
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Kyllsa Siikanen
Gradient
317
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Posted - 2014.08.15 11:07:00 -
[97] - Quote
If you allow terrorists to have free reign because they endanger innocents, you're simply encouraging them to do more of the same. This is why all governments refuse to negotiate with terrorists; you cannot give them any leeway. It sucks.
Sometimes, you grit your teeth and pull the ******* trigger. It's an awful decision to have to make, but what are the options? Killing some of them quickly, in a flash, painlessly, in an attempt to save some? Or doing nothing, and sentence the lot of them to whatever warped torment Nauplius and others of his ilk can conceive? We cannot forcefully board a vessel. We cannot force it to jettison its cargo, nor dock, nor capitulate in any other way to our demands. HE INTENDED TO KILL ALL OF THEM ANYWAY.
I agree with those who have said this was 2000 lives saved, not 2034 lost.
On behalf of my Clan, Tribe, Nation, and corporation, I have one thing to say to Stormcrows:
Thank you.
We stand ready to receive any and all survivors, who will be given housing, medical care, transport to wherever they wish, and work for those who seek it.
Should you require any assistance, you need but ask.
Chief Kyllsa Siikanen Late-Rise Clan Mikramurka, Matar GÇ£Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.GÇ¥-á
GÇò C.S. Lewis-á |

Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
719
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Posted - 2014.08.15 11:46:00 -
[98] - Quote
Painlessly? Have you ever seen the corpses left behind by explosive decompression? There's no flash. There's no painless death. Unless they take a blaster charge directly, it's one of the worst conceivable ways to die, with several dozen horrible things happening to you all at once. If you are really lucky, you get knocked out during the event. If you're not...
Well.
What you can do is give them a chance. You can scramble and web the target at the undock, if that's where you catch them. You can give them the option of redocking, dropping the cargo or simply be forced to sit there. Until the self-destruct is triggered, you aren't forced to do anything but deny him the option of going anywhere.
By simply venting his hulls at the undock, all that's achieved is him popping out of the clone bay nice and refreshed and with the market interface for another batch of slaves waiting for him.
You can't force him to hand over the slaves or redock without self-destructing but not even making the attempt shows exactly how much disregard there is for his cargo. What matters to these people is the kill and the ISK. Everything else is quite demonstrably not a priority. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Kyllsa Siikanen
Gradient
318
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Posted - 2014.08.15 11:57:00 -
[99] - Quote
Because Nauplius has such a history of rational behavior and taking care of those within his holds. GÇ£Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.GÇ¥-á
GÇò C.S. Lewis-á |

Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
719
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Posted - 2014.08.15 12:02:00 -
[100] - Quote
It's not a question of rationality. It's a simple matter of reducing his number of options to the point where there are only three possible outcomes. Redock, hand over the cargo or destruction of his ship. Jumping straight to the last option without attempting the first two is not "saving" anyone. If the last option becomes all that remains, exhausting all others, then there is a case to be made for it being less than murder.
Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Kyllsa Siikanen
Gradient
322
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Posted - 2014.08.15 12:25:00 -
[101] - Quote
You seem to be a person to whom the last word is important.
You shall have it.
Stormcrows, feel free to contact me. You know how. GÇ£Crying is all right in its own way while it lasts. But you have to stop sooner or later, and then you still have to decide what to do.GÇ¥-á
GÇò C.S. Lewis-á |

Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
1254
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Posted - 2014.08.15 12:57:00 -
[102] - Quote
If he docks up, they are effectively lost until he undocks with them in his hold again. Unless you have some manner by which interested parties might breach his personal stationside hangars and facilities, places that are effectively considered sacrosanct by CONCORD and the Empires except in the most extreme of circumstances, which, if you might have guessed, this situation does not fall under.
Which means that the only thing being done, is delaying the time until they are used in one of his sick sacrifices. By doing so you save none of them, but just delay the inevitable. The only time any of them can be saved from him is when he is in space with them in his cargo. Unfortunately, Nauplius will not be reasoned with - he has made his decision already and by all appearances has full intention of sticking to it - so attempts to push him away from the station and get him to give up his cargo will simply be met with a self-destruct sequence on the vessel, as others have stated. Not making the attempt is a cold understanding of this situation: you will save none of them with words, because he will not negotiate with anyone he views as beneath him.
But you might save some of them with weapons fire.
Everyone else here, the Matari included, seems to grasp that it is better to take a chance to save some of them than to guarantee the deaths of all of them. Morwen Lagann CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar Owner, The Golden Masque
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Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
719
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Posted - 2014.08.15 13:09:00 -
[103] - Quote
Unless you think he's doing ritual sacrifice in the station run hangars, it's not like they're in any more danger in there than when treated to explosive decompression courtesy of bloodthirst and greed. I know Scotty has enough of a bloody fit under the best of circumstances, without having to clear dead bodies out of his hangars.
What scares me is that everyone's just ignoring that the only thing achieved is Nappy buying new stock every time you destroy his current hoard. And is it really too much to ask to try going the path of least horrible murder rather than just opening fire without any attempt at doing something else?
It costs nothing to try getting his cargo unscathed. Not a thing. Not even trying is not a matter of cold understanding. It's a matter of not giving a crap about the cargo in the first place. Trying to justify it after the fact with "cold understanding" is a pitiful statement of just how little they mattered when put up against blood thirst and greed. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
1255
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Posted - 2014.08.15 13:12:00 -
[104] - Quote
I think you are missing that people have tried in the past and are not trying it anymore because it's been made clear any and all such attempts will be ignored.
Feel free to go out there and try it yourself, though. Morwen Lagann CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar Owner, The Golden Masque
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Anslo
Scope Works
6817
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Posted - 2014.08.15 13:23:00 -
[105] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:I think you are missing that people have tried in the past and are not trying it anymore because it's been made clear any and all such attempts will be ignored.
Feel free to go out there and try it yourself, though.
That would involve Jinari taking risk though.
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Kohiko Sun
Stormcrows
42
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Posted - 2014.08.15 13:26:00 -
[106] - Quote
Pilot Otsito,
It seems your information about our stance, contingencies, and open offers to Hoi Andrapodistai are mistaken. While we have a practice of not discussing a war on IGS, our stance now is the same as it was when some of us were pilots as part of Electus Matari who had to do the exact same thing many times: do what you must; save who you are able. Should you have further questions about our corporation, you may feel welcome to contact us in the future.
Also, there are at least three ways your 'safe' suggestions could end in catastrophe, but I trust you will forgive me if I do not say them in the hopes of avoiding that. |

Anslo
Scope Works
6841
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Posted - 2014.08.15 13:34:00 -
[107] - Quote
YOU TELL EM KOHIKO! WOOO!
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Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
719
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Posted - 2014.08.15 13:58:00 -
[108] - Quote
The only risks I take are carefully calculated. Going into combat as an unarmed non-combat pilot would be utterly ridiculous by any measure, but I suppose if you can't argue the points you argue the person making them. It doesn't really matter whether or not it has been attempted in the past. It costs absolutely nothing to make the attempts and there is much to gain if it succeeds.
Skipping it because it's not as fun as simply jumping straight to the killing part has yet to be even remotely justified. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
3951
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:11:00 -
[109] - Quote
The problem is, the guy genuinely believes in his heart of hearts that the only reason why the Minmatar ethnic group even exists is because God created them specifically to be "vile subhuman sacrifices". He is not a reasonable man, he's a fanatic, and you don't allow fanatics to stall you.
If you're going to save any lives in that kind of situation, you have to strike hard and fast and save those you can. If you've got hostages with guns to their head and the hostage-takers are preparing to execute the lot and martyr themselves, then you storm the place and accept that not all of those hostages are getting out of there alive. Their deaths are not on your hands.
The same goes for Stormcrows. They didn't kill those people - Nappy did. By putting them in that situation, and by being the man he is, their blood remains on his hands alone. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Kohiko Sun
Stormcrows
45
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:12:00 -
[110] - Quote
I have now thought of five ways to ensure your suggestions would end with everyone dying, and I am not the one wanting to kill them. I am not willing to gamble on all or nothing with that, only my frigates. That is my calculation. |
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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
1261
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:29:00 -
[111] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:Skipping it because it's not as fun And here is where you clearly and openly demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about with regards to the situation. Morwen Lagann CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar Owner, The Golden Masque
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Steffanie Saissore
Stormcrows
335
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:40:00 -
[112] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:Unless you think he's doing ritual sacrifice in the station run hangars, it's not like they're in any more danger in there than when treated to explosive decompression courtesy of bloodthirst and greed. I know Scotty has enough of a bloody fit under the best of circumstances, without having to clear dead bodies out of his hangars.
What scares me is that everyone's just ignoring that the only thing achieved is Nappy buying new stock every time you destroy his current hoard. And is it really too much to ask to try going the path of least horrible murder rather than just opening fire without any attempt at doing something else?
It costs nothing to try getting his cargo unscathed. Not a thing. Not even trying is not a matter of cold understanding. It's a matter of not giving a crap about the cargo in the first place. Trying to justify it after the fact with "cold understanding" is a pitiful statement of just how little they mattered when put up against blood thirst and greed.
Perhaps, you might want to first consider saving your anger to those who have put slaves up on the market for sale in the first place? As that appears to be where a good number of Nauplius's slaves are coming from.
I would also suggest that you step out of your armchair and step into the reality of the situation. CONCORD prevents pilots from going into other pilots' hangars. As long as there is a caspuleer within a ship, we cannot board the ship. And as it has already been pointed out, were we capable of boarding his ships, there is nothing to stop him from self-destructing the ship and killing all involved.
The 'uproar' over this incident is...peculiar to say the least when one considers the fact that Nauplius has stated elsewhere that he makes extensive use of slaves as part of his ships' crew. Steffanie Saissore, Knight Stormcrows
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Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
594
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:45:00 -
[113] - Quote
So.
Did Stormcrows cargoscan the Bestower first ? Or did they engage without the information that there were a number of slaves on board ? |

Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
719
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:50:00 -
[114] - Quote
Once more, a lot of talk in favor of the killings but no reasons given not to spend that little extra time on the preceding options when they could save more of the lives in question. You lose nothing by holding him a bit. If he docks, the slaves live. If he jettisons them, they live. If he tries to self-destruct, option three comes into play and you save what you can.
This is not your normal hostage situation. There are no guns to their heads and no time pressures involved. From the moment he's pointed and webbed, time is on your side. I repeat, you lose nothing but stand to gain much. Absolute worst case scenario, you're forced to do exactly what you're already doing. Killing indiscriminately. Best case scenario, a full cargohold of live rescuees.
Quote: And here is where you clearly and openly demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about with regards to the situation.
And here is where you've run out of arguments and try to deflect the issue. As always. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
3952
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:50:00 -
[115] - Quote
It wouldn't make a blind bit of difference whether they had or hadn't.
If there are no slaves on board then, great: the kill contract can be fulfilled without collateral bloodshed.
If there are slaves on board, then they're doomed anyway and their only hope of freedom and a full life is to shoot the ship out around them and rescue the survivors.
The blame for there not being a better option rests squarely on Nauplius.
Quote:You lose nothing by holding him a bit
Sorry Jinari, but you're completely wrong there. You lose a LOT by holding him a bit, while he gains. He gains time to stall, to plan, to act. Hesitation is an opportunity for the target to come up with wiggle room, vent atmo from the hold, call in third party remote-rep, you name it. What happens if he starts fitting guns on his ship and, once webbed and scrambled, ejects the slaves and then blows up the jetcan? What happens if he pays a bystander to shoot his wreck the second his ship pops?
Hesitation is a loss all by itself. Pressure and seconds are valuable resources, to be spent as efficiently as possible. You DON'T allow fanatics to stall you. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Anslo
Scope Works
6857
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:52:00 -
[116] - Quote
Jinari Otsito wrote:Once more, a lot of talk in favor of the killings but no reasons given not to spend that little extra time on the preceding options when they could save more of the lives in question. You lose nothing by holding him a bit. If he docks, the slaves live. If he jettisons them, they live. If he tries to self-destruct, option three comes into play and you save what you can. This is not your normal hostage situation. There are no guns to their heads and no time pressures involved. From the moment he's pointed and webbed, time is on your side. I repeat, you lose nothing but stand to gain much. Absolute worst case scenario, you're forced to do exactly what you're already doing. Killing indiscriminately. Best case scenario, a full cargohold of live rescuees. Quote: And here is where you clearly and openly demonstrate you have no idea what you are talking about with regards to the situation.
And here is where you've run out of arguments and try to deflect the issue. As always.
So...quick question. Why does your opinion on this situation have any merit worth considering since you, stated yourself, aren't a combat pilot? You have no experience in combat or any similar situation. Why should your criticism be worth two tugs?
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Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
719
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:55:00 -
[117] - Quote
No one's forcing anyone to take my views on board, but neither am I going to refrain from giving them in a public forum as long as no one can refute them. It should be simple enough, if I'm wrong. So far, it seems to not quite be the case. Feel free to argue the points rather than the person, if you wish. It might prove illuminating for everyone involved. Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
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Anslo
Scope Works
6869
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:57:00 -
[118] - Quote
I don't see the point. You're set in your opinion and just keep adding fuel to a stubborn fire. Personally, I think you just want to argue for the sake of arguing and a side of ego boosting. But whatever, just callin' 'em as I see 'em.
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Stitcher
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
3954
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Posted - 2014.08.15 14:58:00 -
[119] - Quote
Okay, well, quit arguing with the people who are insulting you and start engaging with the points then. They're here, in this thread. I've made them, Morwen's made them, Kohiko's made them... even Anslo's made them, in his inimitable jerkass fashion. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Anslo
Scope Works
6869
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Posted - 2014.08.15 15:00:00 -
[120] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Okay, well, quit arguing with the people who are insulting you and start engaging with the points then. They're here, in this thread. I've made them, Morwen's made them, Kohiko's made them... even Anslo's made them, in his inimitable jerkass fashion.
Flattery will get you everywhere Stitch!
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