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PVP'er
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:51:00 -
[31]
You do know that you have to be 150km from something to warp to it don't you?, not 120 |
Gabby05
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.20 16:47:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Max Teranous
Edited by: Max Teranous on 20/07/2006 14:20:54
If the Caldari tier 3 BS gets 10% optimal range bonus i'll cry. At least ATM we have 4 BS out of 8 useful in a fleet fight. That would turn 200km into 300km shooting, and 1 BS out of 12 useful. 
Relax the max targetting range is 250km 
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Bazman
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.20 17:01:00 -
[33]
I think that right now they need to nerf the 100% range ammo to 60% range ammo, it'll give it the same range as the T1 Long Range ammo, but is more useful for hitting battleship targets than say Iron/Radio/Carb Lead. The lower skilled pilots that can't use the large T2 guns will not only be able to participate, but thier guns will be better for shooting cruisers/frigs at that range than the T2 laden guns will be.
Tbh, i'd just love to see a quick fix to the current sniper ammo than to have to wait a year until its all redone at once (and breaks something else in the process)
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Hi TUXFORD! Blasterboat for tier 3 Gallente battleship please! Make it look cool too. Thanks.
I am a Gallente whiner. |
Ismern
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.20 17:51:00 -
[34]
T2 ammo is not broken and fleet engagements aren't all sniping battles.
If you don't believe me, you need only view some of the fraps video from battles in XZH between GoonSwarm and Dusk to Dawn.
Sniping will always be a part of the game, but there are also so many other tactics.
"It's not that I'm lazy . . . It's that I just don't care." |
Nightingale Cain
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Posted - 2006.07.20 18:12:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Nightingale Cain on 20/07/2006 18:13:01
T2 ammo should be about 10% better than the t1
for instance take spike, give it a 70% range bonus instead of a 100%.
and for jav make it similar to anti-matter with 10% more damage.
Jenny's idea with varied damage type would also be cool.
And short range ammo's penalties are silly, I never use the stuff.
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Synapse Archae
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.20 18:24:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Synapse Archae on 20/07/2006 18:24:13
I'm just going to support this and say T2 ammo is broken. I dont have any solutions, but its just not worth it.
No one has a use for t2 missiles, and the T2 sniping ammo is way too powerful, particularly in fleets where theres already no reason not to snipe.
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http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=349194&page=1Redo Fleets[/ur |
Vanlade
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Posted - 2006.07.20 18:28:00 -
[37]
The problem is not tech 2 ammunition, but the players attitude of taking no risks, blobbing and only engaging when they have superior numbers.
How about you train for interdictors instead of t2 large guns, and that you put a bubble in that target fleet so that they can't get away from the rest of your fleet?
Or how about fitting your bs with remote shield/armor repair? Surely from 200km that would make a small diffeence?
Be creative.
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Zaphoniggan
Lordless
Unbrella Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.20 18:56:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Moornblade
One problem is that standoff fleet warfare is kind of goofy. The thing is, however, that with combat being restricted to large open space without any sort of "terrain", it makes some sense to stare down your enemy first.
Think about army warfare, historically (or even think about naval warfare). In days past, two armys (or armadas) would line up against each, and take each other down. As ranges of weaponry increased, it started to make more and more sense to break these large formations into smaller tactical groups who would engage whenever an enemy entered light of sight (as forces were line of sight limited, not range limited).
Changing T2 ammo only slightly fixes the problem. A better fix would be modules and/or ships that would permit some people to approach quickly, and deployable, anchorable objects that would function to strength and/or absorb damage at range.
For example, CCP got create a deployable shield generator, that would have an (3-10) thousand point shield at various sizes, with decent resistances and regen. This generator would have to be supplied fuel at regular instances, and could be remotely repaired.
This would bring some elements of lines of supply into fleet combat; and it would also force some interesting tactics. Imagine covert-ops squads sneaking about, conducting a kamikaze raid to bring down the other fleets shield generators, with the short-range pilots warping to 15km of the covert ops squad after the generators go down.
Cool, I like this idea.
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I refuse to use a sig until my picture is up
.... Wait this is a sig |
kliop
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Posted - 2006.07.20 19:20:00 -
[39]
Edited by: kliop on 20/07/2006 19:20:25
well how about that:make t2 ammo have a little less range then 60% but give it a random kind of dmg...that could have some intresting results...or make it a +45(?)% range with +0% range dmg...so that u get only 1 advantage ..not 2 to the other ppl...
i like the idea off warping to the target or even some km behind it...how about needing a target painter to d that? or another module i dont care...each fleet would have some ships with that module they would warp "behind" the enemy lines and the whole gang woulld have a warp in point....but make that warp random as was suggested...so that u risk it...i mean imagine the whole 100 man gang warping to the member behind the enemy line...the 2 gangs would end up doing dogfights...the only problem i see is that sniping will be lost in that case or greatly reduced... i mean sure right now it is used too much but dont want to go to the other extrem and make noone use it do we?
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xeom
Obsidian Sins
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Posted - 2006.07.20 20:14:00 -
[40]
The problem about fleet battles isn't t2 ammo.Its the fact that everyone is in a battleship 150KM away from each other.
nobody does close range anymore.Something needs to be done and bring the fights in close to like 50KM range max.Mabye elite snipers at 70KM.There should be reason to fight close range.Right now there is none.
CCP where are our t2 shield power relays? | Join[..SIN] |
Cohkka
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Posted - 2006.07.20 20:41:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Vanlade
The problem is not tech 2 ammunition, but the players attitude of taking no risks, blobbing and only engaging when they have superior numbers.
So if you have the oppertunity to kill your enemy safe with no risk or going in a risky
engagement that'll prob cost your ship, and maybe won't even get you a kill, you'd pick the later? Very smart...
You have to force them to develop new tactics. If sniping works, why should they change
that?
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Arkanor
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.20 20:50:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Would also mean that people sniping gates will have to be very brave to continue. 
I love it already.
The sniper would still be able to kill a single person probably, but a gang could knock one out, as it should be.
Granted the snipers would probably just move to 152km from the gate so when the attackers warp in they can't attack without being shot.
Balance the Gun/Missile skilltrees!
Originally by: kieron
rabble, Rabble, RABBLE, |
Burlock Ironfist
Shinra
Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.21 12:30:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vanlade
The problem is not tech 2 ammunition, but the players attitude of taking no risks, blobbing and only engaging when they have superior numbers.
How about you train for interdictors instead of t2 large guns, and that you put a bubble in that target fleet so that they can't get away from the rest of your fleet?
Or how about fitting your bs with remote shield/armor repair? Surely from 200km that would make a small diffeence?
Be creative.
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
Hugh Ruka
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.21 14:36:00 -
[44]
the problem why fleet battles are boring is lag.
not much ability to do something close range that need coordination and fast reactions when you lag in two 100 ship fleets.
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if you want peace, prepare for war ...
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Removed due to offensive content - Laqum
I realy liked my signature. Oh well |
SengH
Black Omega Security
E.R.A
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Posted - 2006.07.21 14:43:00 -
[45]
tbh it doesnt make sense at all why T2 ammo is better than faction ammo.. it doesnt follow the trend.
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Eximius Josari
Citizens of E.A.R.T.H.
E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2006.07.21 15:17:00 -
[46]
It takes two to tango.
Click Above |
Jernau Gurgeh
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.21 15:34:00 -
[47]
The community *****ed, whined and moaned until it got 100km warp-ins.
"Give us 100km warp-ins" they all said, "our long-range ships keep getting ganked".
The community got what it asked for.
There are 10 sorts of people in the world - those who understand binary, and those who do not. |
Crellion
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Posted - 2006.07.21 17:11:00 -
[48]
The proposed fix has nothing to do with tech II ammo. It just means that those with 15km optimal pown all.
If whenever you are over 120km away you can get on top of somebody thats not going to hamper tech II snipping only its going to hamper every ship that can engage better at over 15km.
Sheeesh that should be obvious. You might as well ban rails artillerys beams and all missles but rockets Sillylol.
If you dont want to get popped by snipers develop a B.R.A.I.N.
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Wodin Drukvik
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.21 18:40:00 -
[49]
Having been on the short end of the skillpoint stick for pretty much my entire eve existence, I can safely say that T2 ammo doesn't make or break the game. Yes, it is incredibly frustrating being picked off at 200km by a Tempest or a Mega, but that's what friends in Covops and Dictors are for. Comparing sniping epeens is rather boring for everyone involved, but it's one of the better options for a small fleet to do damage to a bigger one, so I'm loathe to see it removed.
I suspect that the devs will wait till Kali to make sweeping changes to underlying mechanics.
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Karazaan
Rakyra
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Posted - 2006.07.21 21:10:00 -
[50]
I strongly feel that what is killing the 0.0 are the blob...
Here's the solution
Basically, it's the warping in and out that is causing lag and the impression of not beeing able to kill anyone when they have more peoples.
This solution fix bm, wcs and prevent warping out when reaching hull to repair...
Blob give a unfair advantage to those that have more people because you cannot prevent them from warping away when they want (as you become jammed or killed thus freeing their mate). Now if those activating warp drive in a fight would be calling death to themselves, it would help smaller gang to make a difference while not annoying bigger gang. Would just level the field, so to speak. |
Macath
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Posted - 2006.07.21 21:53:00 -
[51]
This doesn't relate to t2 ammo, but when I read what Karazaan had to say I felt the need to reply.
While I agree, I don't like the fact that hit and runs are being used on me, I like them when I'm the one doing the hitting and running. While your idea is realistic, it forces battles. Some would say thats a good thing, and others not. Aginst the "blob" one of the best tactics is to make hit and runs, and snipe and using your ideas would kill that out right.
I don't like not being able to find cloaked haulers, but I love my covert ops. You can't pick and choose what you want a system to do. Just because you have not come up with or been able to feild an effective way to deal with such tactics doesn't mean others have not or that there isn't one.
When you change something, it effects many other things and you have to keep that in perspective. It would kill hit and runs, but why would you want to stop one of the more effective battle tactics. And last but not least, you just jumped into a system, hostiles are on the gate and your in your nice and new trasnport ship. You have 45 seconds to charge your warp engines, what do you do?
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Maya Rkell
Corsets and Carebears
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Posted - 2006.07.21 21:56:00 -
[52]
<stuff about warp-to's>
No.
T2 amo should not exist in its present form. T2 amo should == T1 amo + small special.
T2 sniper amo problem VANISHES. As does every other current T2 amo issue.
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Fridge oblivion
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.21 23:33:00 -
[53]
The warp to someonelse idea might not seem good if you look at it like normal warping but what if it would be a nerfed warp? Like you get a sig increase or you have to calibrate your warp drive an extra 2 seconds or so (everything needing skills which will improve it all). That way the snipers will get off an extrashot and frig/cruiser blobs might be a risky thing for both sides. Or you can add a targeting delay as after uncloaking, or that maneuvre needs a special mod, maybe only for gang warp. The warp out point could be random like for gates after jumping but in favor of the target (so no 15km wall around the poor guy). The warp could be cap intensive and hurt your shields and armor alike (freak chance of popping?)
Something like this could creat a need for a bouncing filed with opposide effects of a warp bubble, the sniper gang could deploy a bouncer bubble which renders "warp to ennemy" more difficult (not impossible).
I'm sure there are lots of other ways to balance a "warp too ship" option out.
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When I was young I wanted to be me, my childhood dream came true |
Frodo
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.22 00:39:00 -
[54]
I feel that T2 long range ammo is fine. I have been in game since may of 2003 when sniping used to be 50/60km. If newer players feel left out because they cant use T2 guns and ammo well cry me a river. There should be advantages to playing a game for a long time especially a game with a training format like eve. If a player has less sp and cant use the t2 guns/ammo this does not destroy their life in 0.0 it just forces them to use the most effective ships they can use like tacklers,dictors hacs or whatever, which in my book is good because WTF is a bs fleet without support.
You all know the good ol saying that you have to pay to play and eve is literally the case. I have paid my dues with time and money invested eve (3years and $800 for subscriptions).
Dont take away my rightful advantage that I trained up for because newer players are whining about how they wanna to have the same range performance of someone with 15-20million more sp. Sometimes things should be balanced so noobs and vets are on more of a level playing field but I feel this is one of the things that should not be changed.
If you want to shoot big guns in big ships with the big boys in 0.0 alliances in eve then getherdone and train it up.
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Fager
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.22 00:59:00 -
[55]
An idea that just snapped my mind reading this:
To avoid all the warp in and warpouts that happening. What if you introduce a way to read an enemies warpline and then follow his destination?
If a BS is warping out ppl can somehow read his alignments even if its a safespot and follow him to hunt him. That is obvius that if the person is fleeing into a POS or to another part of his fleet and you follow your in for trouble.
Perhaps introducing a highslot module that reads of a singel ship for any alignments in warpdrive. If readings are found that boat have an option (and only him, no gangwarp) to directly warp the same place. Perhaps have special ships that can use these or whatevar for details. Thing is if a BS flees he will have trouble since enemies reading him will follow and if they are in faster ships theyll warp faster then him and can be able to take him down unless he warps to a POS or the likes.
That means small and nimble ships can if they need flee and then flee again and again untill they have shook their slower hunters off since they warp faster both in speed in warp and speed to warp. Would make fun huntings if you need ppl in the fleet with faster then standard ships to finish off things.
I dunno... sounds fun in my mind. Perhaps to gankfriendly? flame it or love it. perhaps anyone has more ideas about it :)
"I can predict the movement of the stars but not the madness of men"
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Thud
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Posted - 2006.07.22 01:05:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Uther Doull
not to sure on your solution though, i think they should just change the entire concept of t2 ammo
agreed.
T2 ammo should not be just "more damage and more range",thats boring and uninspired.
t1 ammo has a good damage/range balancing,t2 not.
T2 should be something "special",not just more damage,like a "webber ammo",that reduces the targets speed a bit ,for a short time,something like that.
Also,the peneltys are worse balanced.
(happy ravens have less speed,poor geddons need mutch more cap)
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Karazaan
Rakyra
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Posted - 2006.07.22 01:49:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Macath
This doesn't relate to t2 ammo, but when I read what Karazaan had to say I felt the need to reply.
While I agree, I don't like the fact that hit and runs are being used on me, I like them when I'm the one doing the hitting and running. While your idea is realistic, it forces battles. Some would say thats a good thing, and others not. Aginst the "blob" one of the best tactics is to make hit and runs, and snipe and using your ideas would kill that out right.
I don't like not being able to find cloaked haulers, but I love my covert ops. You can't pick and choose what you want a system to do. Just because you have not come up with or been able to feild an effective way to deal with such tactics doesn't mean others have not or that there isn't one.
When you change something, it effects many other things and you have to keep that in perspective. It would kill hit and runs, but why would you want to stop one of the more effective battle tactics. And last but not least, you just jumped into a system, hostiles are on the gate and your in your nice and new trasnport ship. You have 45 seconds to charge your warp engines, what do you do?
Yes, and BTW, I'm sorry to everyone for beeing off-topic because the last thing I want is to derail the thread.
Now my point is more that when Rigs will come out, we will see 200 threads saying they are not fair, should be removed etc... a 1% more damage to any ship will surely help ganking all over the galaxy. So I just wanted to point into other direction than the evil t2 ammo or the soon to come rigs as the cause of dread and dispair.
I'm looking for new avenue to fix the 'problem' of 0.0, thus my suggestion a few months ago.
Also, devs already stated that cloaked ships will be easy to find with the new scanning system/new specialised ship, so you will find your haulers... 
Now about my idea, I'm sure it will affect almost everything. My ideas was related to many subjects that were in hot debate at the time (mostly wcs) and the fact that peoples were not having fun in combat. Not much changed since then.
I don't want to ruin one of the most effective ("battle") tactics ever, I just wanted to make it more fun. Because right now, I think you win only by numbers, not by real strategy. I feel entering a fight should mean you have the strategy to win it or you lose. It surely don't fix your "hauler with 45 sec of doom upon him" example, maybe that would need another thing.
I posted another idea to fix the hit and run. In fact, it had more to do with the main problem in my opinion, the fact that you run is not really bad as long as you don't come back fully healed 30 sec after (because you had support at the safe point). That idea is Here
As you can see from that one, you can warp in and out as much as you want but you will not 'repair' the last layer so I think it would help the strategy side of things.
I don't have the solution, just looking for it. |
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