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Burlock Ironfist
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:06:00 -
[1]
I have been around in eve for quite a while and have dabbled in most elemenets of it, in every part of the game i can see where the less skilled (as in skillpoints) can still compete with the higher skilled pointed characters. But with the recent introduction of tech 2 ammo, and its growing popularity in 0.0, has creating a big gulf in battleship combat.
Fleet enguage at over 200km time and time again and its understandable why, but often this means that many of the pilots in the gang cannot enjoy the combat, and you have to be lucky to get anything apart fromother tech 2 gunned battleships in ranmge before one of the fleets warp off. This leads to the not so exciting combat of warp in (or be warped in on) by a fleet exchange a few shots kill a couple of ships and warp off.... in my mind this is about as exciting as mining... yes there are a few ways to counter but usually involve some luck to pul of.
So CCP have worked hard to balance and create mutiple types of ships that are usefull in solo, small and large gangs and also fleets and then eliminates the majority of there usefullness in fleets in 1 quick move. that just seems mad to me, tech 2 shouldne tbe a requirement, a advantage yes, but not a requirement like it is becoming in fleet battles, luckily i have tech 2 guns trained but there is nothing less fun than not being able to get involved. Fleet battles should be about creating a blanaced forse not brining as manay tech 2 equiped BS as possible to outsniper somone. Dig fights, close and short range, tacklers, jammers, interdictors all workign in harmony and not just getting one volly from a BS 240km away and blowing up.
My personnal prefernce would be to remove tech 2 ammo alltogether, but i dont see that happeneing, nerfing of it is also another choice but i feel whatever happens the nerf wont be enough to put fleets of of using them. The only way i can see to restore the use of other ships in combat is to allow a "warp to" option for enemy ships, surely if you can target them you ship would be able to warp to them if they are over the normal 120km away... this would make fast tacklers usefull in over 120 km distance, some fleet commanders might even take fleets back in at under that distance in the hope that the tacklers and other ships would have to slog it instead of warping, at this range everyone can play. Yes sniping setups would still get to shoot first (so still a advantage for long range) but it wouldnet make them almost invulnerable liek they are now as people could warp to them.
So to sum it up i think we hsould get a warp to option for enemy ships that are on the same grid as you and over 120 km. this would A) mean that long range setups would still be a advantage due to getting to fire first, but the long range ships would need backup to couter any tacklers, cruisers that would warp to them B)it will brign fleet closer to each other again, either because they initialy enguage at less of a range or becuse you could warp to them, so people without tech 2 large guns could get invoulved again.
I think somthing needs to be done about tech 2 ammo before it gets even more out of hand.
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:10:00 -
[2]
Would also mean that people sniping gates will have to be very brave to continue.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Lorette
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:13:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Lorette on 20/07/2006 13:13:19 /epiphany
Why not give capital ships a mod that can put up a *large* shield barrier which protects anything inside it from anything outside it (think gungan...4 legged things in episode 1) so that ships will have to get within a certain distance ie within the shields radius to do any damage. Make it something like 100km...that way carriers and up have a use in combat other than sitting in a safe spot, possibly have a longer life as they wont just be spammed at by a blob of sniper BS etc
Anyway just a though that popped into me head
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CB LoKi
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:14:00 -
[4]
YAWN! train more looser!
Please resize your signature, oh and I love you - Jacques
♥♥♥♥Give Zealot a Drone Bay |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:16:00 -
[5]
Originally by: CB LoKi YAWN! train more looser!
Go play your loladin in WoW...
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Burlock Ironfist
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Would also mean that people sniping gates will have to be very brave to continue.
Or they would have to make sure anythign they shoot they destroy in 1 volly....
i think this doesnt take awya all the advantages of long range tech 2 ammo, but certainly puts into proportion.
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
Uther Doull
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:20:00 -
[7]
agreed on the t2 ammo thingy, ccp really screwed up every aspect of it from stacking penalties to insane ranges...
not to sure on your solution though, i think they should just change the entire concept of t2 ammo
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Burlock Ironfist
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:23:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Uther Doull agreed on the t2 ammo thingy, ccp really screwed up every aspect of it from stacking penalties to insane ranges...
not to sure on your solution though, i think they should just change the entire concept of t2 ammo
agreed uth as i said my first preference would be the same.... but i cant see them ever removing tech 2 ammo as there would be too much of a uproar from people who build it & use it.
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
Ismern
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:31:00 -
[9]
Not to be shamelessly promoting my alliance or anything, but you don't have to have a T2 sniping battleship with T2 ammo to be useful in 0.0 space. "It's not that I'm lazy . . . It's that I just don't care." |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:32:00 -
[10]
---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Burlock Ironfist
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:33:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ismern Not to be shamelessly promoting my alliance or anything, but you don't have to have a T2 sniping battleship with T2 ammo to be useful in 0.0 space.
agreed i didnt say you were useless i just said its become a larger gulf... escpeicly in fleet to fleet combat, you can still efectivly do alot of things at tech 1 (gate camps, ganks, blobs) but fleet comabt which should be the highlight of the game has become a almost boring affair.
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
Pride NL
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:33:00 -
[12]
Like T2 light missiles. Cap recharge penalty 45%. Put em on a flycatcher and get a 6x45% 'bonus'. Rapes your ship, as your cap would pretty much go backwards
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Burlock Ironfist
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:34:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Pride NL Like T2 light missiles. Cap recharge penalty 45%. Put em on a flycatcher and get a 6x45% 'bonus'. Rapes your ship, as your cap would pretty much go backwards
exactly there are soo many issues with tech 2 ammo that its spolit some good elements of the game.
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
bldyannoyed
Standard Operations Building Services Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:35:00 -
[14]
I dunno about a Warp to Enemies option, seems it would break a lot of stuff, but the T2 ammo deffo needs fixed.
I can fly a T2 Mega, ( i wub my blasterthron) but also have good drone skills so enjoy mid range turret / sentry drone Doms, have good EWAR skills for Celestis and Black Bird, Fly Inty and AF's for fun ( tho they can be good).
A lot of people criticise diverse skill training but it must say something about the state of the game when i can do that much stuff and yet only ever find a Spike Sniperthron to be usefull in a fleet. Anything else will never get in range before one of the fleets warps off.
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Norris Neophitus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:40:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Norris Neophitus on 20/07/2006 13:45:21 I agree about t2 ammo being a bit too good but i think its done the job ccp put it there for, takes a long time to train for t2 ammo on anything but missiles and that means the older players have the advantage. I think they tried to balance out a bit when they realised how powerful and easy the raven made being a noob.
Plus there is the fact that t2 ammo costs a damn fortune making noob killing less profitable for the older players.
So i dont like what its done to the game but i do like the fact that noobs dont get all the bonuses. Plus without it the tempest becomes a really crap tier 2 BS with the phoon easily able to beat its dps
As for the warp idea, warping 105km is a little crazy and for some ships the battle would still be over before they came out of warp at the other end. Maybe a lower sig lower cap MWD would solve the problem but i seriously doubt this. I suspect bigger BS's with bonus that tend towards short range combat (tier 3) are what CCP are thinking.
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Burlock Ironfist
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:48:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Burlock Ironfist on 20/07/2006 13:51:46
Originally by: Norris Neophitus
I suspect bigger BS's with bonus that tend towards short range combat (tier 3) are what CCP are thinking.
you mean liek the caldari one with 10% bonus to rang for rails per lvl (or thats whats rumourd) i agree tech 2 should be a advantage but so much that it exclude other from good elements of the game... i dont even mind higher damage and less raneg because people can still fight, but long raneg ammo means alot of peeps just sit there :S
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
Moornblade
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:49:00 -
[17]
One problem is that standoff fleet warfare is kind of goofy. The thing is, however, that with combat being restricted to large open space without any sort of "terrain", it makes some sense to stare down your enemy first.
Think about army warfare, historically (or even think about naval warfare). In days past, two armys (or armadas) would line up against each, and take each other down. As ranges of weaponry increased, it started to make more and more sense to break these large formations into smaller tactical groups who would engage whenever an enemy entered light of sight (as forces were line of sight limited, not range limited).
Changing T2 ammo only slightly fixes the problem. A better fix would be modules and/or ships that would permit some people to approach quickly, and deployable, anchorable objects that would function to strength and/or absorb damage at range.
For example, CCP got create a deployable shield generator, that would have an (3-10) thousand point shield at various sizes, with decent resistances and regen. This generator would have to be supplied fuel at regular instances, and could be remotely repaired.
This would bring some elements of lines of supply into fleet combat; and it would also force some interesting tactics. Imagine covert-ops squads sneaking about, conducting a kamikaze raid to bring down the other fleets shield generators, with the short-range pilots warping to 15km of the covert ops squad after the generators go down.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:52:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Moornblade One problem is that standoff fleet warfare is kind of goofy. The thing is, however, that with combat being restricted to large open space without any sort of "terrain", it makes some sense to stare down your enemy first.
Think about army warfare, historically (or even think about naval warfare). In days past, two armys (or armadas) would line up against each, and take each other down. As ranges of weaponry increased, it started to make more and more sense to break these large formations into smaller tactical groups who would engage whenever an enemy entered light of sight (as forces were line of sight limited, not range limited).
Changing T2 ammo only slightly fixes the problem. A better fix would be modules and/or ships that would permit some people to approach quickly, and deployable, anchorable objects that would function to strength and/or absorb damage at range.
For example, CCP got create a deployable shield generator, that would have an (3-10) thousand point shield at various sizes, with decent resistances and regen. This generator would have to be supplied fuel at regular instances, and could be remotely repaired.
This would bring some elements of lines of supply into fleet combat; and it would also force some interesting tactics. Imagine covert-ops squads sneaking about, conducting a kamikaze raid to bring down the other fleets shield generators, with the short-range pilots warping to 15km of the covert ops squad after the generators go down.
Thats why fleet warfare seems so boring to me - its all sniping, isnt it? Must really get depressing after a while.
I think allowing close combat ships to warp up to the snipers is needed to make battles more interesting. Might break some things i guess though.
--- Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Tao Han
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.20 13:59:00 -
[19]
Quote: Thats why fleet warfare seems so boring to me - its all sniping, isnt it? Must really get depressing after a while.
Its so incredibly boring I abandoned my 25mill char and started a new one...
Small ship squads is the way to play tbh. The "requirements" of long range tech2 weapons + ammo just isnt worth it to me, I would love to do the alliance thing but I hate Battleships and being "forced" into one isnt my cup of tea.
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Burlock Ironfist
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:02:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tao Han
Quote: Thats why fleet warfare seems so boring to me - its all sniping, isnt it? Must really get depressing after a while.
Its so incredibly boring I abandoned my 25mill char and started a new one...
Small ship squads is the way to play tbh. The "requirements" of long range tech2 weapons + ammo just isnt worth it to me, I would love to do the alliance thing but I hate Battleships and being "forced" into one isnt my cup of tea.
exactly and its not hard tomake small ships useful in fleet battles.... even if the warp to option was at 30 km instead of 15... or you dropped a random distance away (say anythign form 50 -15 km... ) anythign to make other ship able top close in a bit... sniping could still take place but it would have to be supported.
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
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Burlock Ironfist
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:04:00 -
[21]
Anyone have anyother gripes with tech 2 ammo (not just long ranged) and any solutions they think would help balance it .... (balance it being the key word)
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
Pride NL
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:08:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Burlock Ironfist
Originally by: Pride NL Like T2 light missiles. Cap recharge penalty 45%. Put em on a flycatcher and get a 6x45% 'bonus'. Rapes your ship, as your cap would pretty much go backwards
exactly there are soo many issues with tech 2 ammo that its spolit some good elements of the game.
not to forget the speed 'bonus' with t2 missiles on inties. Very usefull too
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Norris Neophitus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:09:00 -
[23]
I see what you mean, basically introduce terrain/fortifications that would make it interesting but i dont think it would work on the 3dimentional lvl for example you mention cov ops kamikaze runs but if its a sphere how do the covert ops ships get to take it down, they cant get inside the shield unless its down and they cant fire through it or it isnt a shield.
would require a whole new range of modules towers objects and i really dont see that happening when ccp can make simple changes far more easily
as for the new ships i havent seen 1 bit of concrete evidence on what they will be and what their bonuses will be, i'd be interested if you have any.
Heres an idea that just occured to me, a module that draws all fire to the ship that originates beyond an adjustable distance using it, meaning a fleet would have to create an uber tank and support it whilst flying it into the enemy fleet with roles for logistics and recon and command ships while hacs and covert ops would be tasked with getting stuck in and taking down the support ships and things like interdictors and iterceptors tasked with stopping them getting close enough to destroy the support ship.
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Burlock Ironfist
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:16:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Norris Neophitus
as for the new ships i havent seen 1 bit of concrete evidence on what they will be and what their bonuses will be, i'd be interested if you have any.
Heres an idea that just occured to me, a module that draws all fire to the ship that originates beyond an adjustable distance using it, meaning a fleet would have to create an uber tank and support it whilst flying it into the enemy fleet with roles for logistics and recon and command ships while hacs and covert ops would be tasked with getting stuck in and taking down the support ships and things like interdictors and iterceptors tasked with stopping them getting close enough to destroy the support ship.
CCP have confimred that the Caldari will be a railgun boat which will automaticly make it a long range ship.
The problem with the module idea is that it will just end up be 2 group shootingf 1 ship form each fleet as soon as they loose the tank ship they will all warp off... we need to get closer to each other to make other ships viable options in gang.
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Burlock Ironfist Anyone have anyother gripes with tech 2 ammo (not just long ranged) and any solutions they think would help balance it .... (balance it being the key word)
There ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Cohkka
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:18:00 -
[26]
Originally by: CB LoKi YAWN! train more looser!
It's loser, not looser. At least do it right, if you want to degrade other people.
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
Max Teranous
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:20:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Max Teranous on 20/07/2006 14:20:54 If the Caldari tier 3 BS gets 10% optimal range bonus i'll cry. At least ATM we have 4 BS out of 8 useful in a fleet fight. That would turn 200km into 300km shooting, and 1 BS out of 12 useful.
Max
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Burlock Ironfist
Shinra Lotka Volterra
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:20:00 -
[28]
I think a big proof that tech 2 ammo is crap is it being banned from the recent tourniment events....
"opinions our my own thank you very much" |
Norris Neophitus
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:21:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Burlock Ironfist
Originally by: Norris Neophitus
as for the new ships i havent seen 1 bit of concrete evidence on what they will be and what their bonuses will be, i'd be interested if you have any.
Heres an idea that just occured to me, a module that draws all fire to the ship that originates beyond an adjustable distance using it, meaning a fleet would have to create an uber tank and support it whilst flying it into the enemy fleet with roles for logistics and recon and command ships while hacs and covert ops would be tasked with getting stuck in and taking down the support ships and things like interdictors and iterceptors tasked with stopping them getting close enough to destroy the support ship.
CCP have confimred that the Caldari will be a railgun boat which will automaticly make it a long range ship.
The problem with the module idea is that it will just end up be 2 group shootingf 1 ship form each fleet as soon as they loose the tank ship they will all warp off... we need to get closer to each other to make other ships viable options in gang.
You dont quite get me cause say once with 70km range the module wouldnt work and so people would go after the support ships and to get the support ships you would have to come within a reasonable range
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Jerick Ludhowe
Arcana Imperii Ltd. Verisum Family
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Posted - 2006.07.20 14:37:00 -
[30]
I really like the idea of being able to warp to someone (friendly or hostile)just over 100k away however I do see the ballance problems that this could bring about. If such a change is implemented I thinkt here would have to be some restrictions and limitations on how and what you could warp to at that range.
I think that you should have a short calibration time when warping to someone on the same grid as you, calibration time could be based off class of ship, sig radius, scan resolution, and maybee even a new nav skill. Also when warping to someone on the same grid as you I do not think you should be able to select warp in range but rather your warp in point would be random landing you between 15k and 30k of the target.
Another option along the same lines to push people twards mixed fleets is to restrict the minimum warp in range depending on ship class. For example frigates/destroyers could have a min warp range of 100km, cruisers 125km, battlecruisers 150km, and Battle Ships 200km.
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