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TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
1
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Time to discuss something that is often just brushed off and really not all that talked about. Its an exploit that is so common that honestly, I'm not certain whether CCP is endorsing it or just simply hasn't gotten around to fix it. The bottom line is the use of courier contracts to hide items in the cargo hold through the creation of a double wrapped courier contract IS an exploit.
To start this thread is the direct result of a petition that was made to CCP asking whether Double Wrapping courier contracts was considered an exploit or not, in which it was determined by a GM to be a non issue
For those who are less aware of the situation being discussed, this thread will go into full detail of the creation of a double wrapped courier contract, how its done, what it does, how it effects eve, and the reason it SHOULD be considered an exploit by CCP, or atleast something that needs to be fixed.
The term double wrapped courier contract refers to a courier contract in which, an already made courier contract is created and then couriered again, essentially putting a plastic wrap within a plastic warp. This differs from a normal courier contract in a very important way. In a normal courier contract, the courier itself consists of items set aside by a specific player, corporation, or Alliance, in which to be moved around high sec. A simple courier wrapped package can be scanned, and when it is scanned items inside of the courier contract will appear onto the cargo scan. In a double wrapped courier contract, the only thing that will appear on the cargo scan is the wrapped package from the initial courier contract.
This is where the exploit comes into play, it basically breaks the cargo scan mechanic, allowing people to transport items with the security of people not being able to know what is inside of the cargo. This essentially turns any active ship in the game into a blockade runner, it can be done on any ship in the game, allowing freighters to move around cargo without the disadvantages of being able to be cargo scanned by would be pirates, or war targets, or whomever has interest in knowing what they are carrying, as is their right through the cargo scan mechanic.
CCP's views, as per my petition spoken by GM Dagon are that
"Double wrapped courier contracts are not considered to be exploiting game play mechanics and reporting such conduct will at this time not result in action being taken against the reported again. We reserve the right however to change our stance regarding this matter if deemed necessary. If you have any further questions or concerns regarding the matter then please do not hesitate to contact us again."
I then responded about posting on the forums and further details on views on the topic and was encouraged to post here by GM Pyro where the community can give CCP their opinion on the matter. My view on this is very clear as it should be to anyone who has read what I just posted, double wrapping is an exploit whether you do it or not, EVEN if you don't support high sec piracy or mercenaries, you can not deny that the use of a double wrapped courier isn't a way of getting around cargo scanners, and essentially making any ship into a blockade runner.
Feel free to post your views, if you agree simply say you agree, or if you don't agree feel free to post, I just ask that no one uses the excuse of "well its always been allowed, why change it now" because that isn't a valid arguement, the mechanic is broken, and simply was never fixed. I mean realistically speaking, orca's hiding stuff in corperate hangers was an exploit but this isn't? Lets get real.
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Ben ReVerT
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
18
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
TL;DR It should be considered an exploit, same as the way they stopped orca's hiding stuff in their corp hangers. |

Nicholas Gundrum
MASS A DEATH Mordus Angels
1
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
I agree with this message. Give us honest gankers a break. |

TimeDrawsNigh
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
3
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:30:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ben ReVerT wrote:TL;DR It should be considered an exploit, same as the way they stopped orca's hiding stuff in their corp hangers.
Second.... also fixed. :P "Darkness thrives in the void, but always yields to purifying light." |

YangSham Po
The Killerz Elite Enemy Spotted.
0
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:39:00 -
[5] - Quote
I am not a ganker but tend to agree there is grounds for further input by CCP. Yes double wrapping is a protection against gankers...something that is plausible however, adaption of the forgotten 'Black Market Trading' skill (which is now obsolete) could be utilised instead.
Therefore, allowing pilots to at least train a skill to enable them a greater chance from being scanned. Should meet both ganker and gank targets requirements per se? |

Greg Valanti
Righteous Immortal Pew Dead Terrorists
105
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:40:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.
Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.
Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it. |

TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
1
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:41:00 -
[7] - Quote
YangSham Po wrote:I am not a ganker but tend to agree there is grounds for further input by CCP. Yes double wrapping is a protection against gankers...something that is plausible however, adaption of the forgotten 'Black Market Trading' skill (which is now obsolete) could be utilised instead.
Therefore, allowing pilots to at least train a skill to enable them a greater chance from being scanned. Should meet both ganker and gank targets requirements per se?
I agree, theres market for either another ship (t2 freighter with these roles) or a skill in which only part of your cargo shows up, but realistically this double wrapping is getting out of hand recently and needs to be fixed... |

TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
1
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:43:00 -
[8] - Quote
Greg Valanti wrote:I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.
Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.
Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it.
Thats not exactly a fair statement saying you can see whats inside, because all you can see is a courier package. Modules would be interesting if it blocked a random percentage of the cargo, similarly to how the ship scanner works, but no ship with the exception of a ship with roles preventing cargo scan inhibition should be allowed to go unscanned.
Secondly, haulers aren't supposed to have an anti-ganking mechanic, thats the point of the blockade runner, saying a hauler shouldn't be ganked if hes carrying 4b is like saying a noobship should be able to kill a titan. |

Greg Valanti
Righteous Immortal Pew Dead Terrorists
105
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:45:00 -
[9] - Quote
TheMeanPerson wrote:[ Thats not exactly a fair statement saying you can see whats inside, because all you can see is a courier package.
I didn't say that, I said you can see it is actually hauling something whereas the old fleet hangar mechanic made anything in there invisible entirely.
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Eldwinn
SomeWhat SophiSticateD Shadow Cartel
7
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
+1. Definitely aggree |
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TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
1
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:46:00 -
[11] - Quote
Greg Valanti wrote:TheMeanPerson wrote:[ Thats not exactly a fair statement saying you can see whats inside, because all you can see is a courier package. I didn't say that, I said you can see it is actually hauling something whereas the old fleet hangar mechanic made anything in there invisible entirely.
I acknowledge what you said, I'm simply saying it makes no difference its practically like seeing nothing at all. |

Greg Valanti
Righteous Immortal Pew Dead Terrorists
105
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:48:00 -
[12] - Quote
TheMeanPerson wrote:Greg Valanti wrote:TheMeanPerson wrote:Thats not exactly a fair statement saying you can see whats inside, because all you can see is a courier package. I didn't say that, I said you can see it is actually hauling something whereas the old fleet hangar mechanic made anything in there invisible entirely. I acknowledge what you said, I'm simply saying it makes no difference its practically like seeing nothing at all.
It gives you the knowledge that the hauler felt it was worth taking the precaution for. |

TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
1
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
Greg Valanti wrote:TheMeanPerson wrote:Greg Valanti wrote:TheMeanPerson wrote:Thats not exactly a fair statement saying you can see whats inside, because all you can see is a courier package. I didn't say that, I said you can see it is actually hauling something whereas the old fleet hangar mechanic made anything in there invisible entirely. I acknowledge what you said, I'm simply saying it makes no difference its practically like seeing nothing at all. It gives you the knowledge that the hauler felt it was worth taking the precaution for.
Gankers aren't infinite pools of cash who gamble on ganking random people, the overall point being is its still an exploit NO ONE HERE can deny its an unintended mechanic that is being used for some players gain... |

Masao Kurata
Z List
72
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:52:00 -
[14] - Quote
I disagree, this is an interesting mechanic that can be used both by concerned haulers and for shenanigans. Yes, on the one hand it "protects" haulers by hiding the value of their cargo (but making it obvious that they're hiding something), but on the other it can be used for cheap bait or to hide the contents of a package from the courier himself, for example to create a worthless courier contract with high collateral that you can then gank.
Obviously it's unintended but so are many other interesting mechanics. |

YangSham Po
The Killerz Elite Enemy Spotted.
0
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:52:00 -
[15] - Quote
Han Solo had smuggler areas within his 'Millenium Falcon'...
The 'Black Market Trading' skill should be reintroduced, allowing a pilot a % chance of his cargo not showing on a scan. The greater the skill level trained, the greater defence against scans. CCP should also consider adding 'Smuggler' cargo expander modules. Again, the module allowing a % protection against cargo scanners. |

Jake Makbema
The Dickwad Squad
29
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
I agree Joseph Askold > In space nobody will hear you talk to yourself. Except Amarrians and Concord because they bugged your ship but thats another story. -á-á I support James 315 and the New Order of Highsec. Read more at www.minerbumping.com |

Masao Kurata
Z List
72
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
What absolutely should be fixed is the Orca's ship maintenance bay being a safe way to transport any ships, modules or drones.
EDIT: anything in the charge category too. |

Greg Valanti
Righteous Immortal Pew Dead Terrorists
105
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:57:00 -
[18] - Quote
YangSham Po wrote:Han Solo had smuggler areas within his 'Millenium Falcon'...
The 'Black Market Trading' skill should be reintroduced, allowing a pilot a % chance of his cargo not showing on a scan. The greater the skill level trained, the greater defence against scans. CCP should also consider adding 'Smuggler' cargo expander modules. Again, the module allowing a % protection against cargo scanners.
Seems useless with the way current scanning works because you can just spam the scan button a few times in a matter of seconds to get an idea of everything. |

Turbolaserwolf BurningStar
Spider Syndicate
5
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
My atrocious KB needs all the help it can get. CCP plz. |

TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
2
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Posted - 2014.08.20 21:59:00 -
[20] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:I disagree, this is an interesting mechanic that can be used both by concerned haulers and for shenanigans. Yes, on the one hand it "protects" haulers by hiding the value of their cargo (but making it obvious that they're hiding something), but on the other it can be used for cheap bait or to hide the contents of a package from the courier himself, for example to create a worthless courier contract with high collateral that you can then gank.
Obviously it's unintended but so are many other interesting mechanics.
I disagree with the term unintended mechanic, if you want to say that you may as well call the drone exploit with the gilas an unintended mechanic, as well as corp hanger hiding in orcas an unintended mechanic.
The only thing that differs in these examples are that one was beneficial to a select few people, and was never formally considered an exploit EVEN THOUGH IT IS, CCP NEEDS TO STOP FAVORITISM AND FIX THE MECHANIC. |
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TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
2
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
Masao Kurata wrote:What absolutely should be fixed is the Orca's ship maintenance bay being a safe way to transport any ships, modules or drones.
EDIT: anything in the charge category too.
I do too agree that orcas need to be fixed in the terms of the ships in the ship hanger being undroppable. (always blow up but we will save that for my next PRO-GANKING thread). |

Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
4
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
I think it should be fixed in the way of making multiple-wrapping a feature: say, each additional wrap reduces the chance of your stuff to get scanned by a certain %, or require an additional scanning pass (would be still too op, but you got the idea). That way it will be neither an exploit, nor a straightforward buff to gank scouting, but a new meta. |

Be4st
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
50
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:08:00 -
[23] - Quote
TMP tears, best tears |

TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
2
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:10:00 -
[24] - Quote
Katerin Archer wrote:I think it should be fixed in the way of making multiple-wrapping a feature: say, each additional wrap reduces the chance of your stuff to get scanned by a certain %, or require an additional scanning pass (would be still too op, but you got the idea). That way it will be neither an exploit, nor a straightforward buff to gank scouting, but a new meta.
I don't see how this would change the fact its creating an exploitable mechanic in which cargo can be hidden in a ship not ment to have invisible cargo holds.
I'd be more interested in them bringing in a module, or another skill into the game to reduce cargo scan efficiency, lets say up to 50%, making scans only show half the cargo per scan. |

Greg Valanti
Righteous Immortal Pew Dead Terrorists
105
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:12:00 -
[25] - Quote
TheMeanPerson wrote:Katerin Archer wrote:I think it should be fixed in the way of making multiple-wrapping a feature: say, each additional wrap reduces the chance of your stuff to get scanned by a certain %, or require an additional scanning pass (would be still too op, but you got the idea). That way it will be neither an exploit, nor a straightforward buff to gank scouting, but a new meta. I don't see how this would change the fact its creating an exploitable mechanic in which cargo can be hidden in a ship not ment to have invisible cargo holds. I'd be more interested in them bringing in a module, or another skill into the game to reduce cargo scan efficiency, lets say up to 50%, making scans only show half the cargo per scan.
In this case the cycle time needs to be changed so that it can only cycle 1-2 times before a freighter can reach warp. |

TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
2
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
Greg Valanti wrote:TheMeanPerson wrote:Katerin Archer wrote:I think it should be fixed in the way of making multiple-wrapping a feature: say, each additional wrap reduces the chance of your stuff to get scanned by a certain %, or require an additional scanning pass (would be still too op, but you got the idea). That way it will be neither an exploit, nor a straightforward buff to gank scouting, but a new meta. I don't see how this would change the fact its creating an exploitable mechanic in which cargo can be hidden in a ship not ment to have invisible cargo holds. I'd be more interested in them bringing in a module, or another skill into the game to reduce cargo scan efficiency, lets say up to 50%, making scans only show half the cargo per scan. In this case the cycle time needs to be changed so that it can only cycle 1-2 times before a freighter can reach warp.
The idea is to prevent freighters from being blockade runners, 1-2 scans would be plenty, as we would simply just use more people to scan. The idea here guys isn't in need of defense, ganking is a very real mechanic in eve, furthermore favoritism is favoritism, saying one broken mechanics an exploit and one isn't is not the way to go about running a game. |

Natako Pirkibo
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Hello, mr. Hi-Sex 'Nado.
I agree that this thing is worth consideration, but...
Suicide ganker tears are priceless! |

TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
2
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Natako Pirkibo wrote:Hello, mr. Hi-Sex 'Nado.
I agree that this thing is worth consideration, but...
Suicide ganker tears are priceless!
[
I value your input. |

Paranoid Loyd
1496
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:21:00 -
[29] - Quote
As a suicide ganker, I must say you tears are hilarious.
Also, T2 blaster Talos to kill an untanked Sigil? "PvE in EVE is a trap to turn you into PvP content, don't confuse it for actual gameplay." Lipbite |

TheMeanPerson
Vengance Inc. Space Warriors
2
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Posted - 2014.08.20 22:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Paranoid Loyd wrote:As a suicide ganker, I must say you tears are hilarious.
Also, T2 blaster Talos to kill an untanked Sigil? He had a plex, and its what I was in. \o/ whatsagankeratodoa. |
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