TL;DR It should be considered an exploit, same as the way they stopped orca's hiding stuff in their corp hangers.

I am not a ganker but tend to agree there is grounds for further input by CCP. Yes double wrapping is a protection against gankers...something that is plausible however, adaption of the forgotten 'Black Market Trading' skill (which is now obsolete) could be utilised instead.

Therefore, allowing pilots to at least train a skill to enable them a greater chance from being scanned. Should meet both ganker and gank targets requirements per se?

I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.

Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.

Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it.

[
Thats not exactly a fair statement saying you can see whats inside, because all you can see is a courier package.

I didn't say that, I said you can see it is actually hauling something whereas the old fleet hangar mechanic made anything in there invisible entirely.

I acknowledge what you said, I'm simply saying it makes no difference its practically like seeing nothing at all.

It gives you the knowledge that the hauler felt it was worth taking the precaution for.

Han Solo had smuggler areas within his 'Millenium Falcon'...

The 'Black Market Trading' skill should be reintroduced, allowing a pilot a % chance of his cargo not showing on a scan. The greater the skill level trained, the greater defence against scans. CCP should also consider adding 'Smuggler' cargo expander modules. Again, the module allowing a % protection against cargo scanners.

I disagree, this is an interesting mechanic that can be used both by concerned haulers and for shenanigans. Yes, on the one hand it "protects" haulers by hiding the value of their cargo (but making it obvious that they're hiding something), but on the other it can be used for cheap bait or to hide the contents of a package from the courier himself, for example to create a worthless courier contract with high collateral that you can then gank.

Obviously it's unintended but so are many other interesting mechanics.

What absolutely should be fixed is the Orca's ship maintenance bay being a safe way to transport any ships, modules or drones.

EDIT: anything in the charge category too.

I think it should be fixed in the way of making multiple-wrapping a feature: say, each additional wrap reduces the chance of your stuff to get scanned by a certain %, or require an additional scanning pass (would be still too op, but you got the idea).
That way it will be neither an exploit, nor a straightforward buff to gank scouting, but a new meta.

I don't see how this would change the fact its creating an exploitable mechanic in which cargo can be hidden in a ship not ment to have invisible cargo holds.

I'd be more interested in them bringing in a module, or another skill into the game to reduce cargo scan efficiency, lets say up to 50%, making scans only show half the cargo per scan.

In this case the cycle time needs to be changed so that it can only cycle 1-2 times before a freighter can reach warp.

Hello, mr. Hi-Sex 'Nado.

I agree that this thing is worth consideration, but...

Suicide ganker tears are priceless!

As a suicide ganker, I must say you tears are hilarious.

Also, T2 blaster Talos to kill an untanked Sigil?

Use a 15mil isk cruiser instead of a 100mil isk BC

This is where the exploit comes into play, it basically breaks the cargo scan mechanic, allowing people to transport items with the security of people not being able to know what is inside of the cargo. This essentially turns any active ship in the game into a blockade runner, it can be done on any ship in the game, allowing freighters to move around cargo without the disadvantages of being able to be cargo scanned by would be pirates, or war targets, or whomever has interest in knowing what they are carrying, as is their right through the cargo scan mechanic.

No I dont believe its an exploit. And my solution is rather simple... It is my opinion that if you want to know whats in the package bad enough then attack them and take the package.

Is double-wrapping an exploit? Kinda-ish. I strongly believe CCP is letting it ride because of what other people have already mentioned: There is currently no other way to counter cargo scanners other than a very specific type of ship, and that is an abnormality. However, cargo scanning and any counters to it are so low on CCP's list of things that need to be balanced that leaving double-wrapping in the game in CCP's way of throwing a bone to the dogs so they don't make too much noise, that way they can focus on more important things. The haulers and high sec gankers alike can make a lot of noise as you're currently in the process of demonstrating.

So the Kinda-ish comes from the fact that CCP knows it's there, knows it's happening, but hasn't named it an official exploit. Until then, any arguments about where it is or not is noise. Time is better spent discussing on how the entire system can be improved.

Oh, and killmails don't matter. The isk loss matters. How much you profited from the kill matters. Bragging rights don't matter. We couldn't care less about any valid point you bring up in the discussion if it also involves improving the potency of your E-peen enlargement pills.

By saying killmails dont matter your basically throwing the entire point of eve out of the window, for any pvper of any type.

The oddball issues around double-wrapped couriers and containers in couriers absolutely needs to be fixed. Not for any of the reasons mentioned by the OP, but beggars can't be choosers. If getting it deemed an exploit is what it takes to have dev resources allocated to fixing it, then I am 100% on board with this!

:)

By saying killmails dont matter your basically throwing the entire point of eve out of the window, for any pvper of any type. The bottom line is it breaks killmails, thats an exploit. In addition hiding cargo in anything but a blockade runner is not intended, which is why it should be an exploit in that sense as well. IF ITS NOT INTENDED and ITS USED FOR UNINTENDED BENEFIT, its an exploit.

Awww I'm guessing gankers ganking freighters with double wrapped cargo that contains 1 unit of tritanium is making them lose money.

TL:DR

Working as intended.

Nope. I get into conflict with players regularly, and cause damages in the hundreds of millions of isk regularly to other players. That is Player Vs. Player gameplay, and you won't find any of it on my killboard.

The entire point of Eve, for you and your small coterie of like-minded fellows, is killmails. For the rest of Eve, it's the kill, or the isk, or the win.

It's also quite sad that you can't even be creative enough to just take a screenshot of the opened package next to the killmail, upload it to imgur and save a copy of the link if it's so incredibly important to you...

Agreed with Bohneik on this one. Killmails are not the be all end all of Eve, otherwise you wouldn't see anyone flying a logi or an OGB.

Not to mention that someone could accept a courier contract, then realize they can't complete said contract personally, so they can sub contract the courier contract to someone who can run it to prevent them from losing the collateral.

They took the time to double wrap the package to keep you from viewing whats inside. The best part is that you can view any characters completed contracts history, whether it succeeded or failed. So if you can do a bit more effort, you can determine if the person is probably carrying something valuable or not.

Ok, even if we did kill them randomly to get the drop, their kill still reads 0 isk, reguardless of whether we knew or not if it had something the kill's value is then negated in the same way the scan is. Its an exploit.

That is because no one has ever put up a fight, or argued with facts that it is, saying that avoiding kill mail loss values very clearly allows people if they so choose to move stuff around in haulers at war, and not have it impact their war report. It so very clearly is, saying it inst doesn't mean anything, it very clearly breaks 3 mechanics, if its intended to do that then make it more apparent by revamping the system but don't let broken mechanics run rampant and expect people not to complain about it.

You can disagree but it doesn't make what you agree with any more logical.

I agree that they need to fix the KM counter, so that it reflects accurately...

That being said, there needs to be a viable counter to cargo scanning BEFORE double wrapping gets removed.

Either that or freighters need to get more EHP because right now you break even if you gank freighters carrying 600,000,000 ISK. And those numbers are for a obelisk with perfect skills and reinforced bulkheads.

This means unless you can fly one, there is no safe way to haul a nestor from jita to dodixie without double wrapping

Something about that seems wrong, and until there is a good alternative, double wrapping needs to stay the way it is.

Either that or freighters need to get more EHP because right now you break even if you gank freighters carrying 600,000,000 ISK. And those numbers are for a obelisk with perfect skills and reinforced bulkheads.

This means unless you can fly one, there is no safe way to haul a nestor from jita to dodixie without double wrapping

Nothing got away, just trying to argue a point of broken mechanic with a bunch of carebears who agree its broken and not working as intended but still think it should exist in eve, even though it gives a role to any class of ship that ship isn't supposed to have, as well as hides kill loss value.

[quote=Sigras]Would you kindly explain how you break even on 600M ISK bulkheaded obelisks unless you can field enough catalysts to kill it instead of the more typical talos fleet? I think you're not giving enough credit to the time and effort it takes to arrange such fleets whereas you could be safe if you used just a single alt to web your freighter.

Excuse me? Would you kindly explain how you break even on 600M ISK bulkheaded obelisks unless you can field enough catalysts to kill it instead of the more typical talos fleet? I think you're not giving enough credit to the time and effort it takes to arrange such fleets whereas you could be safe if you used just a single alt to web your freighter. Loyalanon's fleets make ganking freighters with little or no cargo look easy, but that doesn't mean it is easy.

Also your nestor example is funny, you only need two battleship skills at level 1 to fly it, far less training time than it takes to fly any freighter.

Yeah, that's simply untrue. Your single web alt would get you through one gate, but a fleet of catalysts could beat you in warp to your destination and then wait for you on the other side while your alt has to wait out the aggression timer..

I agree that they need to fix the KM counter, so that it reflects accurately...

That being said, there needs to be a viable counter to cargo scanning BEFORE double wrapping gets removed.

Either that or freighters need to get more EHP because right now you break even if you gank freighters carrying 600,000,000 ISK. And those numbers are for a obelisk with perfect skills and reinforced bulkheads.

This means unless you can fly one, there is no safe way to haul a nestor from jita to dodixie without double wrapping

Something about that seems wrong, and until there is a good alternative, double wrapping needs to stay the way it is.

You keep saying it's broken but I have yet to see a proof of it. For all we know, it might be intended by CCP to work that way. As for the KM, once you fly logi, you start realizing they are worthless. ESPECIALLY on the attacker side since everybody somehow get's full credit for the exact same kill.

What's the value of your kills when anybody can get an exactly equal by standing close to your ships in the gank attempt in an Ibis and fire his civilian guns at the target just once?

I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.

Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.

Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it.

Having your cargo scanned is the intended gameplay.

Being immune to it is not. You can tell this, because blockade runners have a specific feature to prevent it. Which means that, by default, it's not intended for other ships.

+1 to the OP.

I don't haul, but if you are going to disallow double wrapping then there should fairly be a module to prevent cargo scanning.

Everything in game has a counter. Currently, it seems that double-wrapping is the only counter available to haulers from becoming obvious gank targets.

Unlike the Orca fleet hangars when nothing appeared, you can still see that there is cargo inside the ship. It is up to you whether to risk ganking for it.

FINALLY SOMEONE WITH LOGIC!

By this logic only BLOPS should use normal cloaks since only they have a bonus to it, racial weapons on racial ships (except launchers, those go on everything)

This can be expanded to only those with +warp strength should have warp stabs, dreads with cap guns (blap a frig with a capital hybrid abbadon, much more fun than using an arty abaddon)

Your inherent logic is that because the module can see through most things, it should see through all things. Much like a neutron, it will go through most things but there are still things it cant go through.

Besides ganks need to have something to counter, otherwise they fall into the stupid not to do category and that is a bad place to be. Much like Rancer.

now crying foul because they wont be able to move their 50b hauls in one haul with double wrapped couriers anymore, and if they do they will actually have to get a 50b loss mail like the rest of the idiots who do such things.

but I personally dont gank any thing under 10b isk, when it comes to freighters.

SO IT WOULD NEVER HAPPEN BECAUSE IT WOULD BE BROKEN, BUT TO SAY DOUBLE WRAPPING IS OK BECAUSE HAULERS BENEFIT FROM IT SO IT SHOULD STAY SO GANKERS HAVE LESS ABILITY TO GANK AND WARTARGETS/GANKERS CANT SCAN YOUR SHIP THOUGH ITS NOT INTENDED TO HAVE SCANNER IMMUNITY, BUT IT DOES BECAUSE YOUR EXPLOITING A BROKEN MECHANIC.

If everyone is hauling 50b worth of cargo when they are double wrapping their stuff and you previously said.....



So, shouldn't this mean that you should gank everything when you see a double wrap on your cargo scan? Because after all, only 20% of your gank targets have to actually carry this 50B threshold to meet your quota.

And to the argument, use a webbing alt.....since you cannot create a contract with yourself, they do have to use an alt, it's just not a webbing alt, to help protect their cargo.



Rebuttal #1: Wartargets care about scanning your freighter before popping it?
Rebuttal #2: How does double wrapping something in your cargo make it harder for you to get ganked? Last time I checked double wrapping something does not increase your EHP.

To start, 50b is a high end possiblity, the bottom line is no one knows what they are carrying it could be 50b it could be a trit, the point being is its avoiding a mechanic that is intended to be in the game with a mechanic that was not meant to be in the game, there for by definition making it an exploit. THERE IS NO ARGUEMENT THAT IT IS NOT AN EXPLOIT. SAYING GANKING IS WRONG SO LETS EXPLOIT A BUG IS NOT AN OPTION.

Rebuttal #1: Wartargets kills then show up as 0 isk, with the exception of the freighter hull loss, in addition your questioning something that isn't related, if they were to scan the freighter it wouldnt work correctly, the bottom line is scanners arent working as intended due to this exploit.

Rebuttal #2: Double wrapping makes it harder to be ganked by making gankers have to gamble on something they shouldn't have to gamble on, if everyone started double wrapping gankers would stand 0 chance at ganking, it is an exploit of a mechanic. IT IS WHAT IT IS THERE IS NO REBUTTLE TO THE MECHANIC NOT BEING BROKEN.

To start, 50b is a high end possiblity, the bottom line is no one knows what they are carrying it could be 50b it could be a trit, the point being is its avoiding a mechanic that is intended to be in the game with a mechanic that was not meant to be in the game, there for by definition making it an exploit. THERE IS NO ARGUEMENT THAT IT IS NOT AN EXPLOIT. SAYING GANKING IS WRONG SO LETS EXPLOIT A BUG IS NOT AN OPTION.

Invisible cargos wont save you if someone is randomly killing freighters anyway!

Rebuttal #1: Wartargets kills then show up as 0 isk, with the exception of the freighter hull loss, in addition your questioning something that isn't related, if they were to scan the freighter it wouldnt work correctly, the bottom line is scanners arent working as intended due to this exploit.

Rebuttal #2: Double wrapping makes it harder to be ganked by making gankers have to gamble on something they shouldn't have to gamble on, if everyone started double wrapping gankers would stand 0 chance at ganking, it is an exploit of a mechanic. IT IS WHAT IT IS THERE IS NO REBUTTLE TO THE MECHANIC NOT BEING BROKEN.

Ok, even if we did kill them randomly to get the drop, their kill still reads 0 isk, reguardless of whether we knew or not if it had something the kill's value is then negated in the same way the scan is. Its an exploit.

Anything to do with favoritism/bias towards this being used as an exploit just because you disagree with ganking or agree with the use of it in its current form while acknowledging its completely broken.

Because other ganking groups regularly field enough catalysts to kill freighters, right? Oh wait, no they don't. And if they did that would be FINE, they're throwing a magnitude more warm bodies at killing you than you are at protecting yourself. You do not deserve automatic safety and you would complain no matter how many pilots it took. 30? 50? 100? As long as somebody can field that many pilots you would whine.

Im going to guess that you didnt even bother to look at the links because if you had you would have known that the first two links were not CODE kills which im assuming is who youre referencing...

FINALLY SOMEONE WITH LOGIC!

Gankers aren't infinite pools of cash who gamble on ganking random people, the overall point being is its still an exploit NO ONE HERE can deny its an unintended mechanic that is being used for some players gain...

You make no sense, you just compared apples to oranges. It should be able to see through anything but a cloaky hauler as its the only ship in the game that is role designated to be "immune to cargo scanning modules", and lets face it no one can argue that double wrapping isn't a broken mechanic that happened unintentionally that was never fixed and has been exploited, and now I'm calling it out for what it is and care bears who exploit the broken mechanic are now crying foul because they wont be able to move their 50b hauls in one haul with double wrapped couriers anymore, and if they do they will actually have to get a 50b loss mail like the rest of the idiots who do such things.

No one here has presented a valid counter arguement other than "Ganking needs a counter so lets make it so no one can see our cargo by exploiting a mechanic that wasnt intended to exist." Stop repeating and come up with something new, that arguement is invalid on premise of acknowledging a broken mechanic then saying it should stay in the game JUST BECAUSE YOU DISAGREE WITH GANKING AS A WHOLE.
...

For anyone saying that CCP agrees with double wrapping, please do your research before making stupid statements which have no real background.

GM's saying things such as the one replied to my petition, his statement was only that CCP at this time didn't consider it a bannable exploit, in addition he encouraged me to start debate in this forum. HENCE the importance of this thread in bringing it to logical non biased discussion. But it is slowly becoming apparent to me having a logical conversation with carebears is impossible.


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/73995

AND I QUOTE, literally the last line in the post.

"We're not making any changes to plastic wrap right now, but it has significant technical issues which will likely see it being reworked at some point down the line."

Guess what guys, its down the line.

Can you therefore transport illegal goods such as drugs through highsec with this method? If Concord can't scan them, then they won't stop you.

But it is slowly becoming apparent to me having a logical conversation with carebears is impossible.

I will agree that the value should be added to the killboard, but that being said, does it matter what your killboard says if you get the items in the wrap to drop anyways? It's not like it was really a 0 isk kill, unless of course you got punked with carbon.

Why I don't really say with pride I killed several caps. I pressed f1 on a carrier target. Like 20+ other people. It died. This not a thrilling ending no one saw coming really and worthy of saying I am the man.

Especially since everyone that got on the km get the full value of the kill, instead of dividing the value up among everyone.

L

What the OP is asking for is a risk free way of ganking to add to his KB.

To add an element of risk for the gankers to the situation there needs to be a way for the potential victim to balance the scales,

If CCP removes double wrapping then they need to give the potential targets something to balance the scales. Several thoughts are skills as mentioned above, partial cloaking capabilities, or go with a real world solution and give the haulers a fitting like the radar jamming capabilities of the real world we all live in.

If CCP is going to eliminate an unintended situation like the double wrap then to be fair to all players they need to go through the entire game and eliminate ALL unintended uses of game mechanics.

In my assessment of this double wrap it does not give one segment of the game an unfair advantage over all others, it point of fact it simply balances a situation that has always favored the gankers.

Don't lose faith, there are those among us with logic still.... Anyone with a question on these ships need only look up the Viator (Gallente), Crane (Caldari), Prorator (Amarr), and/or the Prowler (Minmatar).
I'll copy straight from the client on the other screen:

"Role Bonus:
* Can Fit Covert Ops Cloaking Device and Covert Cynosural Field Generator
* Cloak reactivation delay reduced to 5 seconds
* Immune to all Cargo Scanners"

^ Point made ^

So we should add modules that protect a ship against being probed down too, right? Because it's totally not fair if they're just sitting in empty space, semi-afk in an expensive booster, only to be probed down and killed. Any sort of scanning should have a counter right?

Sounds like a fear of the unknown. Sometimes you just need to say: shoot it anyways and take the risk.

making gankers have to gamble

It's not particularly imbalanced on basic T1 industrials because you can indeed just shoot them. "Just" shooting a freighter is prohibitively expensive for almost all gankers.

Edit: And for those wondering, A COURIER is also a Planck generator. (You can't put them in cans.)

allowing people to transport items with the security of people not being able to know what is inside of the cargo

YET another comment to add, and this one wins this forum post.

Ever try placing a can within a can? NO OBVIOUSLY you cant. WHY? Because its a Planck generator.

AND I QUOTE FROM THE ERROR MESSAGE.

"You cannot place a Planck generator container within another Planck generator, as it will cause a graviton harmonics chain reaction whose end cannot be determined."

SO WHY....

Can you put a courier within a courier?

Well obviously, it is putting a Planck generator inside of a Planck generator, and I think we have figured out what the graviton harmonics chain reaction results in, the breaking of the cargo scanning mechanic, killmails, and war reports. Thats what happens, and CCP needs to fix this.

I win. Victory is mine.

"YOU GET NOTHING, YOU LOSE!
GOOD DAY SIR!" - Willy wonka

NOW CCP FIX THIS EXPLOIT. PLEASE. :D

Edit: And for those wondering, A COURIER is also a Planck generator. (You can't put them in cans.)

YET another comment to add, and this one wins this forum post.

Ever try placing a can within a can? NO OBVIOUSLY you cant. WHY? Because its a Planck generator.

Technically, they shouldn't be, and neither should some of the cans, as they do not have the TARDIS-like ability of being bigger on the inside.

It's not particularly imbalanced on basic T1 industrials because you can indeed just shoot them. "Just" shooting a freighter is prohibitively expensive for almost all gankers.

Actually, there's a lot of Time Lord Tech in Eve. Check out the size of the MTU. 100m3. How much can it hold? 27,000m3. It's bigger on the inside.

"Just" shooting a freighter is prohibitively expensive for almost all gankers.

Ok, even if we did kill them randomly to get the drop, their kill still reads 0 isk, reguardless of whether we knew or not if it had something the kill's value is then negated in the same way the scan is. Its an exploit.

]Ok, even if we did kill them randomly to get the drop, their kill still reads 0 isk, reguardless of whether we knew or not if it had
One note - what do you think is more probable. A person going through the trouble of double wrapping for a valuable cargo or a person shipping some crap that is not worth suiciding around?

As far as killmails go. Ahh mate just stop fretting about the numbers and go play the game for the fun.