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Iota Belisarius	Posted - 2006.07.22 05:22:00 - [1] So let me get this straight. Electronic Warfare is so overpowered that it's not allowed in the tournaments, but it's ok in the regular game. A large portion of the devs don't agree with this double standard and would like it tweaked if not removed. This has been stated continually throughout the tournament and I'd love to know why this isn't a huge issue for the entire player base. I personally like the idea of Electronic Warfare, but the way it works now is totally ridiculous. Even if it doesn't prevent the enemy from locking, it forces an unlock. With even a Battleship this could be anywhere from 15-30 seconds of time where he can do nothing but watch the enemy pummel him into the ground. Why everyone doesn't fit a multispectral ECM on their midslot is beyond me. People joke about "i win" buttons, but guess what, this one really is. And i'd like to see some response from the dev's beyond the useless banter between each match.
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.07.22 05:45:00 - [2] they boosted ECCM....I get jammed FAR less than before, and this belongs in ships and modules. They didn't allow it because they wanted it to be a slugfest, not a rook/scorpion omgwtfjamming squad. Nobody wants to sit around 10 minutes while people are jamming the **** out of each other.
Iota Belisarius	Posted - 2006.07.22 05:50:00 - [3] Sorry I didn't see that section. And on the subject of ECCM, how often do people actually use it? I rarely hear people talking about having them as part of any kind of setup be it for ratting, gangs, or even fleet battles. I guess I should move this over to the proper channel now.
Samirol Ore Mongers	Posted - 2006.07.22 05:57:00 - [4] Originally by: Iota Belisarius Sorry I didn't see that section. And on the subject of ECCM, how often do people actually use it? I rarely hear people talking about having them as part of any kind of setup be it for ratting, gangs, or even fleet battles. I guess I should move this over to the proper channel now. isd will do it for you, no problems, i usually have it slapped on to my ships if i can spare the slot
Sovy Kurosei Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.22 06:32:00 - [5] Originally by: Iota Belisarius Sorry I didn't see that section. And on the subject of ECCM, how often do people actually use it? I rarely hear people talking about having them as part of any kind of setup be it for ratting, gangs, or even fleet battles. I hear CVA has been putting them to good use I hear. Check out the bonuses for remote ECCM. If you and your corp have their stuff together you can make a formidable anti-ECM fleet. You don't use ECCM for ratting, or even ECM for ratting now that I think about it. At least I never did. ___________________
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.22 06:36:00 - [6] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei I hear CVA has been putting them to good use I hear. It's mostly PIE...while CVA has multiracial fleets, PIE has always been strictly Amarr-only (they like their "Golden Fleets"). Racial ECM basically kills monoracial fleets, and it's worst for PIE because they need to fit two ECCM with only 3 or 4 medslots on their battleships...and yet somehow, they keep kicking ass, over and over again. But SERIOUSLY, racial ECM needs to be eliminated. The modules should just be deleted from the database, simple as that. Once we ONLY have multispecs, THEN we can start balancing it. ------------------ Originally by: kieron Buy ISK for RL cash here! Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Sovy Kurosei Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.22 06:38:00 - [7] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari But SERIOUSLY, racial ECM needs to be eliminated. The modules should just be deleted from the database, simple as that. Once we ONLY have multispecs, THEN we can start balancing it. What is wrong with racial ECM? ___________________
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.22 06:41:00 - [8] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei What is wrong with racial ECM? I just explained that in the rest of the post. If you want to have a fleet of ships that are all the same race (maybe because you're an AMARRIAN organization or a CALDARI organization, you might want AMARRIAN SHIPS or CALDARI SHIPS), you get jammed to hell and back, and you die. ------------------ Originally by: kieron Buy ISK for RL cash here! Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Sovy Kurosei Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.22 06:50:00 - [9] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari I just explained that in the rest of the post. If you want to have a fleet of ships that are all the same race (maybe because you're an AMARRIAN organization or a CALDARI organization, you might want AMARRIAN SHIPS or CALDARI SHIPS), you get jammed to hell and back, and you die. So why remove racial ECM because a group of players willingly choose to field a monoracial fleet? That is silly. ___________________
Azmodaus Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.22 06:57:00 - [10] Edited by: Azmodaus on 22/07/2006 06:57:36
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.22 07:00:00 - [11] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei So why remove racial ECM because a group of players willingly choose to field a monoracial fleet? That is silly. Because monoracial fleets should be encouraged. ------------------ Originally by: kieron Buy ISK for RL cash here! Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Sovy Kurosei Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.22 07:06:00 - [12] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Because monoracial fleets should be encouraged. Why!? ___________________
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.22 07:07:00 - [13] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari Because monoracial fleets should be encouraged. Why!? For the same reason that Gallente ships are encouraged to use hybrids, Minmatar ships are encouraged to use projectiles, and Amarr ships are encouraged to use lasers. ------------------ Originally by: kieron Buy ISK for RL cash here! Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Sovy Kurosei Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.22 07:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari For the same reason that Gallente ships are encouraged to use hybrids, Minmatar ships are encouraged to use projectiles, and Amarr ships are encouraged to use lasers. What does that have to do with monoracial fleets? Are you advocating that fleets composed entirely of a particular race should get a bonus? ___________________
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.22 07:15:00 - [15] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari For the same reason that Gallente ships are encouraged to use hybrids, Minmatar ships are encouraged to use projectiles, and Amarr ships are encouraged to use lasers. What does that have to do with monoracial fleets? Are you advocating that fleets composed entirely of a particular race should get a bonus? We actually had an interesting conversation here about how to implement that. ------------------ Originally by: kieron Buy ISK for RL cash here! Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Avon Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.22 07:21:00 - [16] It is multispecs that need to be removed. And then the chanced based system. The problem now is that any ship with one multispec has a reasonable chance to jam any other ship. Luck starts to play a key factor in fights. Under the old system one multispec would NEVER jam a battleship, or most cruisers, and so there was no point of fitting just one. Now, however, your one multispec has a chance (and over the course of a fight, is likely) to jam an enemy BS, locking it out of combat for 30seconds at a time. That is a huge advantage, and makes fitting that one multispec incredibly worthwhile. The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
Sovy Kurosei Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.22 07:21:00 - [17] Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari We actually had an interesting conversation here about how to implement that. Quote: Our users have posted a total of 27724 articles Can't find it. But I did find a bunch of roleplaying forums. ___________________
Nikolai Nuvolari Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.22 07:29:00 - [18] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari We actually had an interesting conversation here about how to implement that. Quote: Our users have posted a total of 27724 articles Can't find it. But I did find a bunch of roleplaying forums. I don't remember where it is, in fact it might not be there right now (the forums got hacked a little while ago and we haven't restored the database yet). ------------------ Originally by: kieron Buy ISK for RL cash here! Mebrithiel Ju'wien > Nik's bio 4tw btw Graelyn > Nikolai for Dev 108!
Eyecandi Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.22 07:29:00 - [19] Edited by: Eyecandi on 22/07/2006 07:29:31 I think what Nik is trying to get across is that this game has an environment that (if you read the backstory) brainwashes the population into an ultranationalism and corporate loyalty. This ensures that if you are, say, a Gallente you will have a compulsive preference for Gallente ships--hence an all Gallente corp would field an overwhelmingly Gallente fleet with almost no Caldari ships included because they are the bad guys. Remember that pod technology in the game is only about as old as the game, and that everyone in the Eve universe who is not a pod pilot tends to not have the opportunity to fly the ships of other races. Thus even pod pilots are under tremendous social pressures to fly their own native ships. Although this is not expressed in game mechanics and we are free to fly whatever the hell we want, currently those who adhere to the backstory are gimped by the monoracial ECM modules. IE those who choose to play by the initial conditions of the game handicap themselves under the current rules. While one might be tempted to say "adapt or die," which is so casually hurled around on these forums, I agree with Nik and others that this is a problem. The rp corps who immerse themselves in the backstory provided by the devs and volunteers are being backslapped by game mechanics. These are often some of the most dedicated, hard core supporters of the game, and their influence on the game's environment adds greatly to the flavor for everyone else. Is it just? Nope. Of course, nothing in life is fair, but this gripe is justified I think. And no, I don't count myself among the rpers but I greatly appreciate the fiction, the stories, the back-and-forth that is player driven.
Akkarin Pagan	Posted - 2006.07.22 08:04:00 - [20] Just chucking out an idea here. Would ECM work better as a combination of the old and the new system? EXAMPLE: To stand a chance of Jamming, you have to have a higher jam strength than the targets sensor strength. If this is the case, you then use a chance based system to see if the target is jammed, instead of the definite "you are jammed" of the old days. It does seem odd to me, that although each race gets some form of EW, only ECM is used a lot (How many other races EW cruisers do you see in fleet battles compared to Blackbirds?) Akkarin
Rodj Blake Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.22 08:40:00 - [21] I can confirm that ECCM is very useful and extremely effective when deployed across an entire fleet. My one big gripe with the system as it stands is that it's no longer possible to increase your ship's non-racial sensor type. Ideally, it should be a viable tactic to boost one of your non-existant sensor types (ie have some gravimetric on an Amrrian ship) and make the jamming ship overcome both of that and your normal sensors. Dulce et decorum est, pro imperator mori
Sensor Error 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.07.22 09:17:00 - [22] I think I heard that they are planning on boosting ECCM up a bit for kali... I might be wrong however. RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!!! ------------------------------------------ Dev Responses to common questions
MOOstradamus	Posted - 2006.07.22 09:28:00 - [23] Originally by: Avon Now, however, your one multispec has a chance (and over the course of a fight, is likely) to jam an enemy BS, locking it out of combat for 30seconds at a time. That is a huge advantage, and makes fitting that one multispec incredibly worthwhile. It is only a huge advantage if the opposition fail to use EW themselves. Up until the ECCM boost I did agree that it was a far too easy for all ships to jam and that the Rook, Falcon & Scorpion didn't get enough of a bonus but now I'm not so sure. A combination of the current % based system and a limited factoring in of ship size would however be the best solution I see nothing wrong with adding more chance elements to EVE ship combat over the mundane guaranteed options that exist now, as long as they of course do not make this randomness too variable .. MOOCIFER Emerald/Alpha Oldtimer
Xendie	Posted - 2006.07.22 09:43:00 - [24] Originally by: Avon It is multispecs that need to be removed. And then the chanced based system. The problem now is that any ship with one multispec has a reasonable chance to jam any other ship. Luck starts to play a key factor in fights. Under the old system one multispec would NEVER jam a battleship, or most cruisers, and so there was no point of fitting just one. Now, however, your one multispec has a chance (and over the course of a fight, is likely) to jam an enemy BS, locking it out of combat for 30seconds at a time. That is a huge advantage, and makes fitting that one multispec incredibly worthwhile. on the old system you needed a atleast 2 mods to jam a cruiser and atleast 3 minimum i think to jam a battleship. now a lonely little n00b with no playerskill at all in a frigate can take out a battleship from the whole battle in a frigate with one ECM module, its silly and does not endorse playerskill from the current gamemechanics involving ECM. the old way of ECM were a whole lot better. Originally by: F'nog This would be great, because lag is not at all a problem currently.
Verone	Posted - 2006.07.22 11:19:00 - [25] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei Originally by: Nikolai Nuvolari But SERIOUSLY, racial ECM needs to be eliminated. The modules should just be deleted from the database, simple as that. Once we ONLY have multispecs, THEN we can start balancing it. What is wrong with racial ECM? The question is not "what is wrong with racial ECM?", the question is "What is right with ECM in general?" Answer... Nothing. Some of our guys have decided to start fitting ECCM in an effect to try and counter the fact that EVERY engagement they get into, they see that little countdown at the bottom of the screen. NO MATTER WHAT SHIP THEY'RE FIGHTING. I've seen everything from Rifters, to Tempests jamming sucessfully, and repeatedly. All that ECCM does, IMO is take up slots and gimp your setup. The bonuses for ECCM are in no way even remotely related to the bonuses of ECM in terms of the ability to jam, or prevent jamming. I've seen our guys rack out with a couple of ECCM modules, and STILL be jammed by a SINGLE multispec. The whole chance based system is a total pile of crap IMO. If I fight against a Scorpion or a Blackbird, I expect to be jammed. It's what they do best. If i fight aganist a Pilgrim, or a curse I also expect it, because these ships get specific bonuses. To be honest ECM should be limited to specific roles and should be restricted to certain ship classes. CCP have been talking about introducing "Mini-Professions" for a long time, including exploration and the like. To be honest, I'd like to see the role of an ECM pilot become a mini-profession, along with the role of a covert ops pilot and the role of a recon, and command pilot. They should be a lot more specialised, with a lot more Level 5 Skills to train. This would also help out on the "boo hoo we're never going to catch the Veteran pilots up" argument, and would give vets something more of a goal to achieve... rather than just being "yay, I got level 5 recon. 5% bonus to whatever. yay" logs out to play something else I expect to get flamed tbh... I always do... so do your worst. Verone zips up his Nomex suit. VETO RECRUITMENT*
Malicious Wraith The Dark Side of the Moon	Posted - 2006.07.22 11:27:00 - [26] I wouldnt be bothered if ECM was restricted to jamming ships at all, but I love the idea of ECM ^.^! ----------------------------------------
Lo3d3R Implant Liberation Front	Posted - 2006.07.22 11:31:00 - [27] ECM is a dumb game stopping feature. ___________________ Eating Chopped Bear:
Hon Kovell Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.22 11:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Sovy Kurosei What does that have to do with monoracial fleets? Are you advocating that fleets composed entirely of a particular race should get a bonus? Another discussion about that was had in the Features and Ideas section.
Infinity Ziona The First Noble Truth	Posted - 2006.07.22 11:46:00 - [29] Edited by: Infinity Ziona on 22/07/2006 11:46:44 Its quite astonishing that it got past testing and QA as an improvement to the old system. Also this is not ships and modules topic. Its a game balance topic.
Laboratus Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.22 12:25:00 - [30] First. the topic name is off. You are talking about ECM, not EW in general. Iota: EW is the salt of this game. It stops the game from detoriating to "who has the biggest (E-*****) damage output (character skills)" to who out smarts his opponent. It's simple. It is another thing you should consider and prepare for when setting up your ship. Ignoring EW will cost you your ship as surely as ignoring the fact your opponent might tank NOS or shoot you. It fit's the theme of the game in adapt or perish perfectly. If you don't fit ECCM or alpha your opponent to death etc. and thus ignore EW, you should lose your ship. Period. Nikolai: Why the hostility on racials? Ships based on a design of a single race are and should be vulnerable to design flaws done in according to the said races design philosophy. That is one of the reasons why concord uses it's own ships and why pod pilot societies are so strong. They thrive on variety. They are mostly not hampered by getting stuck in a single races failures. If you use gang warfare modules to boost your racial strategies, for amarr tanking, that can be done and is much more efficient than trying to boost both shield and tanking resistances by using multiple gang assist mods and "waste" ships in this. About multispecs: I really don't know why ppl use these. (well xcept for pirating. It's perfect for that. But than again, howlers don't shoot back anyways. Usually...). They are very weak compared to racials. If you can get intel on what your opponents are prolly flying you should be able to prepare to use their weakneses to your advantage. Not being able to do that would simply be just dumb. On average, I play eve, because it doesn't have classes or levels that restrict you to only casting healing spells or make you unable to hit someone because they are higher level. Skills only restrict your ability to fit modules (and give some boni, yes but that is irrelevant compared to:) and the choise of modules and the use of them is the thing that draws the line between survivors and losers, not the amount of time one has spent kicking cows behind the farmhouse. What should be altered from the current state is the fittings on ships, not the modules themselves, as the modules are fine and balanced with their counter modules. What is broken/missing here is player skill. That is all I have to say about this subject. Mind control and tin hats

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