So then do you dispute the fact that the graph reflects none of those very important concerns regarding weapon systems? Because I consider them all valid points in the discussion of turret balance.

Edit: And for the record, I also think that scorch should be nerfed.

So rather than respond to any of the five supporting arguments I brought up, you resort to ad hominems. And yet I'm the irrational one.

Um...okay?

When the adjustments in question relate to the balance between lasers and autocannons? I'd say they're perfectly relevant. After all, you are the one accusing me of "raving that [Minmatar] are overpowered."

You can't accuse me of wanting nothing but to nerf Minmatar, then dismiss all the points relevant to that discussion simply because they don't support your arguments. Debate doesn't work that way.

Liang and others, without getting too far into the argument situation I'll offer an idea I've had for a while.

That idea being: if each weapon type (hybrid, Projectile and Laser) gets their own damage mod (MFS, Gyro's and Sinks), why not also give each weapon system their own range modification modules.

As far as the RP side goes, there would have to be different computers operating the diff systems, so it would take specialized modules to work with the different systems.

On the balance side of things, it would let CCP (and forum warriors) be able to offer tweaks to each weapon system without (purposefully/accidentally?) affecting another system.

This might also fall into the OP's idea that TC/TE's affect weapon systems with more or less weight depending on the system.

Surely, this kind of a change would only work for better balance, or better performance in each systems "niche" than the current module(s).

Thoughts?

Ced

My gut reaction is that I'd be fine with it but I'm not sure if that's really true. In a lot of ways, having racial mods like that would further emulate the class systems of other MMOs. I think that for me the lack of a real class system is one of the endearing aspects of Eve - but more than that, its one of the stabilizing forces in the Eve community. As bitter as the "Nerf Minmatar" crowd is, they don't compare at all to the vitriol spewed by class specific communities that I found abroad in other MMOs.

-Liang

Liang and others, without getting too far into the argument situation I'll offer an idea I've had for a while.

That idea being: if each weapon type (hybrid, Projectile and Laser) gets their own damage mod (MFS, Gyro's and Sinks), why not also give each weapon system their own range modification modules.

As far as the RP side goes, there would have to be different computers operating the diff systems, so it would take specialized modules to work with the different systems.

On the balance side of things, it would let CCP (and forum warriors) be able to offer tweaks to each weapon system without (purposefully/accidentally?) affecting another system.

This might also fall into the OP's idea that TC/TE's affect weapon systems with more or less weight depending on the system.

Surely, this kind of a change would only work for better balance, or better performance in each systems "niche" than the current module(s).

Thoughts?

Ced

Edit: With respect to that ludicrously stupid pulse laser vs. 425mm AC graph

Sure -- now try adding tracking to that graph. Or fitting requirements. Or capacitor consumption. Or damage type selection. Or range dictation.

Minmatar ships are worse at actually fighting than amarr ships, but have the ability to run more easily/pick their engagements. This is fine, and nothing short of nerfing minmatar to the point of being useless is going to change the fact that minmatar dominate the KBs, because at the end of the day the ship that gets to pick its targets is going to have a better k/d ratio than the ones that can't.

Even though I think some of the fall-off range with projectile ships is a little too far, these two posts have me thinking things are ok as it is. The extreme edge of that range is afterall the extreme edge of falloff.

I'm now thinking of it as "heh dodged that fastball aimed at my head" v "oops miscalculated the curve on that curveball"

That graph is precisely why it's unbalanced. The only range that matters is the range at which Winmatar boat kites you at. TE widens the kiting window - window at which you do zero dmg but Winmatar still does reduced falloff dmg to you. Nerf Winmatar speed, so that the race with longest range is no longer also the fastest one, and it's balanced.

Which does more DPS at 32km - a Zealot or a Vagabond? How about Geddon or Tempest? Harbinger or Hurricane?

-Liang

In DEFENSE of Minmatar (because I'm willing to look at opposing arguments (shocking, I know), I'd like to remind people that you can't kite beyond point range. So if your opponent has a weapon that reaches to your warp disruptor distance, kiting isn't going to work.

Now, with faction points, gang links (including the new T2 links) and the like, this becomes a little muddied, but the idea still holds.

In DEFENSE of Minmatar (because I'm willing to look at opposing arguments (shocking, I know), I'd like to remind people that you can't kite beyond point range. So if your opponent has a weapon that reaches to your warp disruptor distance, kiting isn't going to work.

Now, with faction points, gang links (including the new T2 links) and the like, this becomes a little muddied, but the idea still holds.

Exactly, which means Winmatar will find that kiting window where you do nothing while it still does dps. It's all about who gets the range control. Leave falloff as is, nerf Winmatar speed.

Uh, the Laser ship wins in each case (and not by a little bit). :-/

-Liang

With 3 TE, heavy pulse with scorch gets 32 + 9, 425mm with barrage gets 4 + 35. It looks similar, except with a falloff of 35, some dmg can still be done at 2x falloff, but with a falloff of 9, dmg runs down rapidly to zero. This, combined with Winmatar being faster than Amar and dictating range.

At which point you're out of point range and doing next to no damage.

Oh noez, don't nerf my boat

For the blobs, Winmatar has the 1400s. But that's a whole other beef.

Because moving in any direction other than approach is soooo hard.

Wait, you got webbed, scrammed, and jammed while trying to fly perpendicular? Mission accomplished then.

You have no idea how blobs work either, do you?

Oversimplified retort. One that's been used 5 posts above. Others, tacklers, bubbles, etc. come into play.

Range isn't limited to point range. If it's that simple, blasters would pwn all.

They do. That's when it becomes more of a DPS/EHP race, which Amarr still win, handily. Which is why Amarr BS are flat out better than anything else for seriousface fleet fights.



Do you?

Matar BS's are actually all great, IF your primary goal is skirmishing larger slower forces they are well suited. gank nano-pests and such, if you line up a Maelstrom fleet and a Baddon fleet, numbers best favor the Maels.