I don't see a problem with them, falloff is worth 50% less then optimal so it sums up pretty good.

No, it isn't.
EDIT: Copied from my post in the other thread:


Compare these 2 hypothetical guns: We'll call them a pulse laser and an AC.
The pulse laser has an optimal of 10km, a falloff of 1km
The AC has the 10 falloff and 1 optimal.
Assuming each has the same base DPS, the pulse will hold an advantage in damage out to 11km, as at this point each turret is in 1X falloff.
Beyond that however, the AC does more damage, as it will still be doing about 40% of its DPS at 12km, whereas the pulse will be doing no damage at all.
It ss, in my opinion at least, a well balanced idea, and is probably the reason why falloff works the way it does, instead of losing all your damage at 1X falloff (and just making the numbers bigger).


You trade DPS for range, falloff is certainly not worth half as much as optimal.

I may be wrong, but the weapon types and most beneficial upgrades are:
Lasers:Optimal/tracking
Projectiles: Falloff/Tracking
Blasters:Optimal/Falloff
Railguns: Tracking, Optimal

I'm definitely thinking that your analysis of long range weaponry is off. The reason you fit range mods with them is for... range. I'm also a bit unsold on the idea that blasters are more interested in the optimal than the falloff and tracking. I am beginning to warm to the idea that TEs (specifically) are just doing too much... but I really don't want to nerf blasters in the process of hitting that particular nail.

-Liang

I'm definitely thinking that your analysis of long range weaponry is off. The reason you fit range mods with them is for... range. I'm also a bit unsold on the idea that blasters are more interested in the optimal than the falloff and tracking. I am beginning to warm to the idea that TEs (specifically) are just doing too much... but I really don't want to nerf blasters in the process of hitting that particular nail.

-Liang

I'm definitely thinking that your analysis of long range weaponry is off. The reason you fit range mods with them is for... range. I'm also a bit unsold on the idea that blasters are more interested in the optimal than the falloff and tracking. I am beginning to warm to the idea that TEs (specifically) are just doing too much... but I really don't want to nerf blasters in the process of hitting that particular nail.

-Liang

Liang admits that the new TEs might in fact be a bit overpowered? May the wonders never cease.

Edit: Was it the fact that optimal-scripted TCs are 100% worse than TEs what tipped you off? (WAY higher CPU cost, capacitor draw, no tracking bonus, same optimal/falloff...)

It wouldn't be a blaster nerf. Blasters benefit the least from range mods, so it would be bringing them closer to the others a bit.

Meanwhile rails still have the longest range, but not by as much....which is fine because nobody needs to shoot past the edge of the grid.

It's never 1 to 1 - there's more falloff, which is what it's all about. And the difference of being slightly out of optimal range with almost no falloff, and being in falloff with almost no optimal, is absolute - doing dmg and not doing dmg. Add Winmatar speed to the mix, and it's perma-kitting. End result is still win, when you're faster and doing reduced dmg, while opponent is slower while doing zero dmg. The fact that you're doing reduced dmg in falloff does not change outcome, only how soon the inevitable arrives. Range is range, speed is speed. It's that simple. The idea that "it's falloff, therefore it doesn't count" is laughable.

I dont do math, but I am confident that eve players will, given enough time, find a strength/weakness and abuse it to the fullest extent allowed. Projectiles (even on hulls not designed for them), and Minnie ships in general are over-used for a reason. Its because they are extremely powerful (not pure dps, but range, damage selection, fitting requirements, alpha,speed, slot layout, GTFO tank, etc) and Eve players exploit such things. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding. The pudding is decidedly rust-colored.

Not that I want them nerfed, but the other races need to be brought in line somehow. Gallente the most. The hybrid changes are a start, but after those settle in, the Gallente ship base stats and/or bonuses are going to need to be looked at.

The math is relatively simple, its called an integral, and a falloff curve is fairly easy to model.

Be careful with these. Some ranges are more important than other ranges, so you have to provide some weighting mechanism to the integral to actually try to do this evaluation with math. Just remember that the integral of a Rail Rokh is actually pretty damn sexy next to blasters, but in reality its pretty useless.

I gave up on this approach, personally.

-Liang

I am beginning to warm to the idea that TEs (specifically) are just doing too much... but I really don't want to nerf blasters in the process of hitting that particular nail.-Liang

Lets make this simple

http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5421/trackingdiff.jpg

One pic is with a TE, one is without.
425mm vs heavy pulse laser.
Do you see a difference in the shape between the two? no? And thats why its balanced.

******* forum ate my post again.

TE's replace damage mods - it's why they do not do "too much"
TC's are better than TE's since when the situation requires it they can give you 30% better tracking.
AC's advantage over pulse lazors - no cap usage , low fitting reqs. Damage is less, tracking is similar.

buff TC , lower cpu need cap use and give more optimal-> problem solved

Naomi, are you arguing for a pulse laser, Zealot, Apoc buff?

buff TC , lower cpu need cap use and give more optimal-> problem solved

Edit: With respect to that ludicrously stupid pulse laser vs. 425mm AC graph

Sure -- now try adding tracking to that graph. Or fitting requirements. Or capacitor consumption. Or damage type selection. Or range dictation.

Yeah, I can get behind this at least a little bit.

-Liang

So then do you dispute the fact that the graph reflects none of those very important concerns regarding weapon systems? Because I consider them all valid points in the discussion of turret balance.

Edit: And for the record, I also think that scorch should be nerfed.

So rather than respond to any of the five supporting arguments I brought up, you resort to ad hominems. And yet I'm the irrational one.

Um...okay?

When the adjustments in question relate to the balance between lasers and autocannons? I'd say they're perfectly relevant. After all, you are the one accusing me of "raving that [Minmatar] are overpowered."

You can't accuse me of wanting nothing but to nerf Minmatar, then dismiss all the points relevant to that discussion simply because they don't support your arguments. Debate doesn't work that way.

Liang and others, without getting too far into the argument situation I'll offer an idea I've had for a while.

That idea being: if each weapon type (hybrid, Projectile and Laser) gets their own damage mod (MFS, Gyro's and Sinks), why not also give each weapon system their own range modification modules.

As far as the RP side goes, there would have to be different computers operating the diff systems, so it would take specialized modules to work with the different systems.

On the balance side of things, it would let CCP (and forum warriors) be able to offer tweaks to each weapon system without (purposefully/accidentally?) affecting another system.

This might also fall into the OP's idea that TC/TE's affect weapon systems with more or less weight depending on the system.

Surely, this kind of a change would only work for better balance, or better performance in each systems "niche" than the current module(s).

Thoughts?

Ced

My gut reaction is that I'd be fine with it but I'm not sure if that's really true. In a lot of ways, having racial mods like that would further emulate the class systems of other MMOs. I think that for me the lack of a real class system is one of the endearing aspects of Eve - but more than that, its one of the stabilizing forces in the Eve community. As bitter as the "Nerf Minmatar" crowd is, they don't compare at all to the vitriol spewed by class specific communities that I found abroad in other MMOs.

-Liang

Liang and others, without getting too far into the argument situation I'll offer an idea I've had for a while.

That idea being: if each weapon type (hybrid, Projectile and Laser) gets their own damage mod (MFS, Gyro's and Sinks), why not also give each weapon system their own range modification modules.

As far as the RP side goes, there would have to be different computers operating the diff systems, so it would take specialized modules to work with the different systems.

On the balance side of things, it would let CCP (and forum warriors) be able to offer tweaks to each weapon system without (purposefully/accidentally?) affecting another system.

This might also fall into the OP's idea that TC/TE's affect weapon systems with more or less weight depending on the system.

Surely, this kind of a change would only work for better balance, or better performance in each systems "niche" than the current module(s).

Thoughts?

Ced

Edit: With respect to that ludicrously stupid pulse laser vs. 425mm AC graph

Sure -- now try adding tracking to that graph. Or fitting requirements. Or capacitor consumption. Or damage type selection. Or range dictation.

Minmatar ships are worse at actually fighting than amarr ships, but have the ability to run more easily/pick their engagements. This is fine, and nothing short of nerfing minmatar to the point of being useless is going to change the fact that minmatar dominate the KBs, because at the end of the day the ship that gets to pick its targets is going to have a better k/d ratio than the ones that can't.

Even though I think some of the fall-off range with projectile ships is a little too far, these two posts have me thinking things are ok as it is. The extreme edge of that range is afterall the extreme edge of falloff.

I'm now thinking of it as "heh dodged that fastball aimed at my head" v "oops miscalculated the curve on that curveball"

That graph is precisely why it's unbalanced. The only range that matters is the range at which Winmatar boat kites you at. TE widens the kiting window - window at which you do zero dmg but Winmatar still does reduced falloff dmg to you. Nerf Winmatar speed, so that the race with longest range is no longer also the fastest one, and it's balanced.

Which does more DPS at 32km - a Zealot or a Vagabond? How about Geddon or Tempest? Harbinger or Hurricane?

-Liang

In DEFENSE of Minmatar (because I'm willing to look at opposing arguments (shocking, I know), I'd like to remind people that you can't kite beyond point range. So if your opponent has a weapon that reaches to your warp disruptor distance, kiting isn't going to work.

Now, with faction points, gang links (including the new T2 links) and the like, this becomes a little muddied, but the idea still holds.

In DEFENSE of Minmatar (because I'm willing to look at opposing arguments (shocking, I know), I'd like to remind people that you can't kite beyond point range. So if your opponent has a weapon that reaches to your warp disruptor distance, kiting isn't going to work.

Now, with faction points, gang links (including the new T2 links) and the like, this becomes a little muddied, but the idea still holds.

Exactly, which means Winmatar will find that kiting window where you do nothing while it still does dps. It's all about who gets the range control. Leave falloff as is, nerf Winmatar speed.

Uh, the Laser ship wins in each case (and not by a little bit). :-/

-Liang

With 3 TE, heavy pulse with scorch gets 32 + 9, 425mm with barrage gets 4 + 35. It looks similar, except with a falloff of 35, some dmg can still be done at 2x falloff, but with a falloff of 9, dmg runs down rapidly to zero. This, combined with Winmatar being faster than Amar and dictating range.

At which point you're out of point range and doing next to no damage.

Oh noez, don't nerf my boat

For the blobs, Winmatar has the 1400s. But that's a whole other beef.

Because moving in any direction other than approach is soooo hard.

Wait, you got webbed, scrammed, and jammed while trying to fly perpendicular? Mission accomplished then.

You have no idea how blobs work either, do you?

Oversimplified retort. One that's been used 5 posts above. Others, tacklers, bubbles, etc. come into play.

Range isn't limited to point range. If it's that simple, blasters would pwn all.

They do. That's when it becomes more of a DPS/EHP race, which Amarr still win, handily. Which is why Amarr BS are flat out better than anything else for seriousface fleet fights.



Do you?

Matar BS's are actually all great, IF your primary goal is skirmishing larger slower forces they are well suited. gank nano-pests and such, if you line up a Maelstrom fleet and a Baddon fleet, numbers best favor the Maels.