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ColWolfe
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Posted - 2006.07.23 09:46:00 -
[1]
I'm going to be nice and not mention the Alliance that uses these tactics, but I'd like to mention how cheap this tactic is.
Enemy arrives in system, you pull them out of warp with your Interdictor and they log out. Their ship warps away and is safe, or if you're really lucky and the ship is too large you get a warp disruptor on them their pod escapes every time. This is problem one.
Problem two is even worse. You close within 5km of the enemy pod while cloaked. You uncloak and put up a bubble. Guess what? They log out and the bubble does NOT hold them.
Both have been viewed several times. It is ridiculous that players can get away with that.
I;d hope problem two can be fixed in particular. When in a Warp Disruption Probe's field, logging out should set a timer of 2 minutes or not allow you to warp out at all. The immediate warp out is ridiculous.
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Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.07.23 09:49:00 -
[2]
petition em hopefully they will get a warning
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Kipkruide
Setenta Corp
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Posted - 2006.07.23 09:57:00 -
[3]
it's actually another exploit that let's you do that, just logging off does not work, safe to say ccp knows about it. Hope it gets fixed soon. I remember a certain alliance using that trick to save some frieghters.
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Trac3rt
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:08:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/07/2006 10:09:14
I have seen two individuals use this tactic: SKRooster from BRS, and El Titan from BoB. Each time they logged out to save their ship/pod/implants from a bubble which would otherwise have sealed their fate.
This has been petitioned (by myself), and while the action falls squarely within CCP's definition of an exploit, the official response is that CCP cannot dictate when people are allowed to log in or out of the game.
Freighter pilots are rumored to do this all the time to escape gate camps.
It is not the most honorable thing to do, but is allowed by CCP so you should just accept it as part of the game and get on with your life.
___
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:19:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Trac3rt
This has been petitioned (by myself), and while the action falls squarely within CCP's definition of an exploit, the official response is that CCP cannot dictate when people are allowed to log in or out of the game.
True, BUT, if the ship is in a bubble or warp-scrambled, logging out shouldn't move it anywhere. It should be caught by the bubble.
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"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Jetzin
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:19:00 -
[6]
U haven't seen the oposite yet, put an interdictor at gate with a bubble. Wait t'ill u catch someone and call ur buddy's to logg in and take care of him.
Its as lame as logg out, but mostly it are the same people doing both.
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HippoKing
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kipkruide
it's actually another exploit that let's you do that, just logging off does not work, safe to say ccp knows about it. Hope it gets fixed soon. I remember a certain alliance using that trick to save some frieghters.
The entire lowsec trading community is not an alliance  (
(OK, this was an unfair generalisations. I'm sure there are some freighter pilots who don't log to save their ships in gatecamps, but I've yet to see one).
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fire 59
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:24:00 -
[8]
Loggin off during comabt is pretty puffy imo, be nice if the server detects you log off in space to avoid death and self destructs you and your pod, would be cool.
Iron and G eat babie's , my views are my own, they do not refect my corp or my alliance |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:26:00 -
[9]
Just do the same. Cant beat them, join them. There are people who play for fun, also people who play to win. Pot, kettle, black can be a good gameplay in a perverse game. Be nice when they are nice, be evil when they are evil.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Trac3rt
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Trac3rt
This has been petitioned (by myself), and while the action falls squarely within CCP's definition of an exploit, the official response is that CCP cannot dictate when people are allowed to log in or out of the game.
True, BUT, if the ship is in a bubble or warp-scrambled, logging out shouldn't move it anywhere. It should be caught by the bubble.
I completely agree with this. It is a bug in the game, my petition response indicated that CCP were aware of this and are working on it, but I have not heard any official word.
I wish I was allowed to post GM responses, because the one I have explains things very well.
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RoMUF
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:29:00 -
[11]
Solution is simple. When you log off your ship should stay where it is. This will prevent people from logging out in space. Then you can only log out at a friendly pos or station.
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Kata Dakini
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:47:00 -
[12]
There are so many ways to manipulate the game mechanics to do things it was not designed for. I'm wondering how many people that complain about this one are guilty of committing any of the others. A high percentage I'm sure.
For more enjoyment and greater efficiency, consumption is being standardized. |
Drizit
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.23 11:05:00 -
[13]
The problem is that only the person shooting can see it normally.
I have had a CTD when I approached a station surrounded by ships. Not sure what was happening there but with so much pressure on my graphics card and my fragile system and it decided to quit on me. My transport ship had a nice tank and lots of hardeners so I think I would have made it to the station if my PC hadn't crashed. Tried logging in again and it did a CTD again as it approached the station out of warp. Gave up and decided to wait until it was quiet before trying again.
--
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AlienBreed
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Posted - 2006.07.23 11:13:00 -
[14]
i thougth about posting this b4 but i didnt want to tell everybody how its done... but sinse its now on the forum let me state my opinion
its cheating, no other way to describe it
Without going into details there are at least 2 ways i know of where logging will make you escape from a bubble in a way that cant possibly be intended
Quote:
I have seen two individuals use this tactic: SKRooster from BRS, and El Titan from BoB. Each time they logged out to save their ship/pod/implants from a bubble which would otherwise have sealed their fate.
I have seen it happen quite often (altho after this thread it prolly going to happen alot more) but without naming names there is 1 particular member of BRS who does it every time they get caught in a bubble, its like an instant reaction
there is no point in petitioning cause we all know that gms/devs/whoever isnt going to do anything about it and even if they were inclined to you cant prove that the person didnt just lose their connection
this cheat is basicly as bad as it can possibly get in eve and it needs a hotfix like yesterday
Please CCP do something about this, a pod in a bubble should not warp off under any circumstances and if you genuinely lose your connection well thats just hard luck - its not like a pod is going to pull some great tactical manuver that lets it escape
once a ship or a pod is inside a bubble there should be no way of escape
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Face Lifter
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Posted - 2006.07.23 11:13:00 -
[15]
I recommend this change to fix log out abuse:
when log out or disconnect is detected by server, the player ship would stay in place for 10 seconds, then try to warp away.
10 seconds delay is going to be enough to make log out tactic useless for combat situations.
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys
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Posted - 2006.07.23 11:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Face Lifter
I recommend this change to fix log out abuse:
when log out or disconnect is detected by server, the player ship would stay in place for 10 seconds, then try to warp away.
10 seconds delay is going to be enough to make log out tactic useless for combat situations.
A) this would mean logging out would have to decloak you. Logging out is most effective when you are cloaked after jumping through a gate.
B) The 10 second delay is not fair on people who are not logging out deliberately, either through internet failure or CCP's fault.
B is really the whole problem, because there is no foolproof way to discern the difference between a cynical and deliberate logout and a connection failure or client error. Any change you implement to hurt the deliberate loggers, will also hurt those who already suffer - the people for whom EVE does not run with great stability.
If the EVE client itself was more reliable, it might become viable to punish logging off more harshly.
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AlienBreed
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Posted - 2006.07.23 11:34:00 -
[17]
Quote:
B) The 10 second delay is not fair on people who are not logging out deliberately, either through internet failure or CCP's fault.
Not warping off when your aggro/tageted/whatever it is, is harsh on people that genuinely lose their connections in combat and this is a very similar situation
If your in a bubble and surrounded by enemys (which is a likely situation) your dead anyway regardless of you being at the controls or not
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Gabby05
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.23 12:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: AlienBreed
If your in a bubble and surrounded by enemys (which is a likely situation) your dead anyway regardless of you being at the controls or not
Should read what the other posts are saying... people log out whilst cloaked after jumping through a gate, dont matter how many mobile warp bubbles or interdictor spheres there are there immune to it as they simply havent initiated anything.
The difference between this and loggin out in combat is if the player has you scrambled the only way you will warp away after logging is if he had wcs fitted.
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Vincent Gaines
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Posted - 2006.07.23 12:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: RoMUF
Solution is simple. When you log off your ship should stay where it is. This will prevent people from logging out in space. Then you can only log out at a friendly pos or station.
and if you have a CTD and/or your internet connection suddenly drops?
no, that's not a solution.
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.07.23 13:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
and if you have a CTD and/or your internet connection suddenly drops?
no, that's not a solution.
There's a fundamental difference of opinion behind all this, and the two viewpoints are irreconcilable.
One says, "if you log during combat, you should die; if you crash accidentally, too bad, but we need to stop the loggers."
One says, "if you crash during combat, you must have a chance to escape; if people take advantage of that by logging, too bad, but we need to allow for accidents."
Take yez pick. CCP have tried very hard to cut a middle path, but there simply isn't one.
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Benglada
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.07.23 14:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Just do the same. Cant beat them, join them. There are people who play for fun, also people who play to win. Pot, kettle, black can be a good gameplay in a perverse game. Be nice when they are nice, be evil when they are evil.
Jenny spitifires setups: Tempest. 3x Cloaking device//5x ECM//all ows wcs
=)
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Originally by: Wrangler
Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote.. 
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Drizit
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.23 14:53:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Drizit on 23/07/2006 14:56:29
Originally by: Face Lifter
I recommend this change to fix log out abuse:
when log out or disconnect is detected by server, the player ship would stay in place for 10 seconds, then try to warp away.
10 seconds delay is going to be enough to make log out tactic useless for combat situations.
If you do this, then you have to create a solution for login traps as well. Both are exploits and both should be dealt with in an equal manner. To do one and not the other would create an imbalance that allows attackers to use exploits but not defenders.
For example: If I was caught by a dictor in a sphere and all his buddies suddenly logged in to pop me, I should be able to log out and escape. Fair is fair.
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.07.23 14:58:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 23/07/2006 15:02:22
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
and if you have a CTD and/or your internet connection suddenly drops?
no, that's not a solution.
There's a fundamental difference of opinion behind all this, and the two viewpoints are irreconcilable.
One says, "if you log during combat, you should die; if you crash accidentally, too bad, but we need to stop the loggers."
One says, "if you crash during combat, you must have a chance to escape; if people take advantage of that by logging, too bad, but we need to allow for accidents."
Take yez pick. CCP have tried very hard to cut a middle path, but there simply isn't one.
In a situation where you're basically dead anyway (bubbled in a gatecamp), logging out/crashing shouldn't save you. IMO.
As to "we can't tell players when they can and can't log out", sure, that's fair, but if they do it in a combat situation in order to save assets, they should have those assets removed. Again, IMO.
{edit} And personally, I wouldn't take "if you can't beat them, join them" as an answer, because a) it doesn't make it any more annoying when it happens to you, b) it makes you a hypocrite and c) there's this thing called "honour", I don't know if you've heard of it...
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Arkanor
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.23 15:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
there's this thing called "honour", I don't know if you've heard of it...
There's no honor in eve.
Balance the Gun/Missile skilltrees!
Originally by: kieron
rabble, Rabble, RABBLE, |
Amateratsu
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:00:00 -
[25]
Why do players log? simple, because they don't wish to lose time, isk and assets?
there is currently no counter to a dictor bubble, wcs's will not work, the only escape is to log off.
pirates are selfish, they camp gates with bubbles to get free easy kills and don't want their pray to be able to escape.
if you wanna stop players logging you have to give them an alternative means of escape, a chance to defend themselfs against the pirate gate ganks.
you can't expect a player caught in a gate gank to simply sit there and die with no chance of escape.
there needs to be balance.
on the other hand if a player initiates combat then logs to avoid losing then i agree that is an exploit, but a solo player minding his own business logging to escape a gate gank is fair play.
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Amateratsu
you can't expect a player caught in a gate gank to simply sit there and die with no chance of escape.
Yes we can. Why can't they expect to suffer and die if they didn't bother trying to avoid the thing in the first place?
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Marshy 3rd
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:21:00 -
[27]
If anyone has ever played neocron would know that when ya logged in that game you character was still online in its position for 20 to 30 seconds afterwards so it was pointless logging during a fight you were gonna lose.
There is nothing wrong with implamenting this in eve. You guys who say oh yea what about innocent people who lose connection during a battle hell its not gonna happen all the time is it. I lose connection sometimes and its annoying i use to in neocron and it was a pain coming back on to find myself dead but hey i excepted it and got on with the game. I have never used or come across this problem but if i new my ship was gonna be left on for 20 to 30 seconds after i logged then i woul dtake more care in where i go and where i log out to. A 20 to 30 second delay is a simple answer to this issue and had it been introduced when the game first come out no one would be none the wiser and wouldnt be moaning about it hurting the innocent people who lose connection. If you cant afford to lose a ship then you should not be flying it into 0.0 anyway. Or if you like leave the ship there if it gets blown up then maybe the pod could escape if you were logged off but at least make it so its not in the players interst to log out once they loseing a fight make them lose something.
http://www.xtreme-eve.co.uk |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Arkanor
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
there's this thing called "honour", I don't know if you've heard of it...
There's no honor in eve.
That's because you spell it wrong.
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Deja Thoris
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Just do the same. Cant beat them, join them. There are people who play for fun, also people who play to win. Pot, kettle, black can be a good gameplay in a perverse game. Be nice when they are nice, be evil when they are evil.
Is the name of your corp an oxymoron with you in it?
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Amateratsu
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Amateratsu
you can't expect a player caught in a gate gank to simply sit there and die with no chance of escape.
Yes we can. Why can't they expect to suffer and die if they didn't bother trying to avoid the thing in the first place?
Which brings us back to the wanting free easy kills against players with no chance of defending themselfs.
if a group of players jumped into your camp and proceded to take it apart would you stick around and die with honor or would you try to escape?
yes you can avoid camps if you are smart, have a desposable alt that can scout ahead ect.
but if you are unlucky enough to get caught, you should still have a chance to defend yourself. even if only a very small one.
wheres the pvp fun in killing a defenceless target that posses no threat what so ever?
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