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ColWolfe
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Posted - 2006.07.23 09:46:00 -
[1]
I'm going to be nice and not mention the Alliance that uses these tactics, but I'd like to mention how cheap this tactic is.
Enemy arrives in system, you pull them out of warp with your Interdictor and they log out. Their ship warps away and is safe, or if you're really lucky and the ship is too large you get a warp disruptor on them their pod escapes every time. This is problem one.
Problem two is even worse. You close within 5km of the enemy pod while cloaked. You uncloak and put up a bubble. Guess what? They log out and the bubble does NOT hold them.
Both have been viewed several times. It is ridiculous that players can get away with that.
I;d hope problem two can be fixed in particular. When in a Warp Disruption Probe's field, logging out should set a timer of 2 minutes or not allow you to warp out at all. The immediate warp out is ridiculous.
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Miss Overlord
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Posted - 2006.07.23 09:49:00 -
[2]
petition em hopefully they will get a warning
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Kipkruide
Setenta Corp
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Posted - 2006.07.23 09:57:00 -
[3]
it's actually another exploit that let's you do that, just logging off does not work, safe to say ccp knows about it. Hope it gets fixed soon. I remember a certain alliance using that trick to save some frieghters.
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Trac3rt
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:08:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/07/2006 10:09:14
I have seen two individuals use this tactic: SKRooster from BRS, and El Titan from BoB. Each time they logged out to save their ship/pod/implants from a bubble which would otherwise have sealed their fate.
This has been petitioned (by myself), and while the action falls squarely within CCP's definition of an exploit, the official response is that CCP cannot dictate when people are allowed to log in or out of the game.
Freighter pilots are rumored to do this all the time to escape gate camps.
It is not the most honorable thing to do, but is allowed by CCP so you should just accept it as part of the game and get on with your life.
___
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:19:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Trac3rt
This has been petitioned (by myself), and while the action falls squarely within CCP's definition of an exploit, the official response is that CCP cannot dictate when people are allowed to log in or out of the game.
True, BUT, if the ship is in a bubble or warp-scrambled, logging out shouldn't move it anywhere. It should be caught by the bubble.
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Jetzin
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:19:00 -
[6]
U haven't seen the oposite yet, put an interdictor at gate with a bubble. Wait t'ill u catch someone and call ur buddy's to logg in and take care of him.
Its as lame as logg out, but mostly it are the same people doing both.
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HippoKing
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kipkruide
it's actually another exploit that let's you do that, just logging off does not work, safe to say ccp knows about it. Hope it gets fixed soon. I remember a certain alliance using that trick to save some frieghters.
The entire lowsec trading community is not an alliance  (
(OK, this was an unfair generalisations. I'm sure there are some freighter pilots who don't log to save their ships in gatecamps, but I've yet to see one).
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fire 59
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:24:00 -
[8]
Loggin off during comabt is pretty puffy imo, be nice if the server detects you log off in space to avoid death and self destructs you and your pod, would be cool.
Iron and G eat babie's , my views are my own, they do not refect my corp or my alliance |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:26:00 -
[9]
Just do the same. Cant beat them, join them. There are people who play for fun, also people who play to win. Pot, kettle, black can be a good gameplay in a perverse game. Be nice when they are nice, be evil when they are evil.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
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Trac3rt
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:26:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Trac3rt
This has been petitioned (by myself), and while the action falls squarely within CCP's definition of an exploit, the official response is that CCP cannot dictate when people are allowed to log in or out of the game.
True, BUT, if the ship is in a bubble or warp-scrambled, logging out shouldn't move it anywhere. It should be caught by the bubble.
I completely agree with this. It is a bug in the game, my petition response indicated that CCP were aware of this and are working on it, but I have not heard any official word.
I wish I was allowed to post GM responses, because the one I have explains things very well.
___
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RoMUF
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:29:00 -
[11]
Solution is simple. When you log off your ship should stay where it is. This will prevent people from logging out in space. Then you can only log out at a friendly pos or station.
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Kata Dakini
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Posted - 2006.07.23 10:47:00 -
[12]
There are so many ways to manipulate the game mechanics to do things it was not designed for. I'm wondering how many people that complain about this one are guilty of committing any of the others. A high percentage I'm sure.
For more enjoyment and greater efficiency, consumption is being standardized. |
Drizit
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.23 11:05:00 -
[13]
The problem is that only the person shooting can see it normally.
I have had a CTD when I approached a station surrounded by ships. Not sure what was happening there but with so much pressure on my graphics card and my fragile system and it decided to quit on me. My transport ship had a nice tank and lots of hardeners so I think I would have made it to the station if my PC hadn't crashed. Tried logging in again and it did a CTD again as it approached the station out of warp. Gave up and decided to wait until it was quiet before trying again.
--
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AlienBreed
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Posted - 2006.07.23 11:13:00 -
[14]
i thougth about posting this b4 but i didnt want to tell everybody how its done... but sinse its now on the forum let me state my opinion
its cheating, no other way to describe it
Without going into details there are at least 2 ways i know of where logging will make you escape from a bubble in a way that cant possibly be intended
Quote:
I have seen two individuals use this tactic: SKRooster from BRS, and El Titan from BoB. Each time they logged out to save their ship/pod/implants from a bubble which would otherwise have sealed their fate.
I have seen it happen quite often (altho after this thread it prolly going to happen alot more) but without naming names there is 1 particular member of BRS who does it every time they get caught in a bubble, its like an instant reaction
there is no point in petitioning cause we all know that gms/devs/whoever isnt going to do anything about it and even if they were inclined to you cant prove that the person didnt just lose their connection
this cheat is basicly as bad as it can possibly get in eve and it needs a hotfix like yesterday
Please CCP do something about this, a pod in a bubble should not warp off under any circumstances and if you genuinely lose your connection well thats just hard luck - its not like a pod is going to pull some great tactical manuver that lets it escape
once a ship or a pod is inside a bubble there should be no way of escape
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Face Lifter
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Posted - 2006.07.23 11:13:00 -
[15]
I recommend this change to fix log out abuse:
when log out or disconnect is detected by server, the player ship would stay in place for 10 seconds, then try to warp away.
10 seconds delay is going to be enough to make log out tactic useless for combat situations.
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Nev Clavain
Wise Guys
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Posted - 2006.07.23 11:28:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Face Lifter
I recommend this change to fix log out abuse:
when log out or disconnect is detected by server, the player ship would stay in place for 10 seconds, then try to warp away.
10 seconds delay is going to be enough to make log out tactic useless for combat situations.
A) this would mean logging out would have to decloak you. Logging out is most effective when you are cloaked after jumping through a gate.
B) The 10 second delay is not fair on people who are not logging out deliberately, either through internet failure or CCP's fault.
B is really the whole problem, because there is no foolproof way to discern the difference between a cynical and deliberate logout and a connection failure or client error. Any change you implement to hurt the deliberate loggers, will also hurt those who already suffer - the people for whom EVE does not run with great stability.
If the EVE client itself was more reliable, it might become viable to punish logging off more harshly.
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AlienBreed
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Posted - 2006.07.23 11:34:00 -
[17]
Quote:
B) The 10 second delay is not fair on people who are not logging out deliberately, either through internet failure or CCP's fault.
Not warping off when your aggro/tageted/whatever it is, is harsh on people that genuinely lose their connections in combat and this is a very similar situation
If your in a bubble and surrounded by enemys (which is a likely situation) your dead anyway regardless of you being at the controls or not
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Gabby05
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.23 12:15:00 -
[18]
Originally by: AlienBreed
If your in a bubble and surrounded by enemys (which is a likely situation) your dead anyway regardless of you being at the controls or not
Should read what the other posts are saying... people log out whilst cloaked after jumping through a gate, dont matter how many mobile warp bubbles or interdictor spheres there are there immune to it as they simply havent initiated anything.
The difference between this and loggin out in combat is if the player has you scrambled the only way you will warp away after logging is if he had wcs fitted.
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Vincent Gaines
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Posted - 2006.07.23 12:57:00 -
[19]
Originally by: RoMUF
Solution is simple. When you log off your ship should stay where it is. This will prevent people from logging out in space. Then you can only log out at a friendly pos or station.
and if you have a CTD and/or your internet connection suddenly drops?
no, that's not a solution.
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.07.23 13:50:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
and if you have a CTD and/or your internet connection suddenly drops?
no, that's not a solution.
There's a fundamental difference of opinion behind all this, and the two viewpoints are irreconcilable.
One says, "if you log during combat, you should die; if you crash accidentally, too bad, but we need to stop the loggers."
One says, "if you crash during combat, you must have a chance to escape; if people take advantage of that by logging, too bad, but we need to allow for accidents."
Take yez pick. CCP have tried very hard to cut a middle path, but there simply isn't one.
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Benglada
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2006.07.23 14:27:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Just do the same. Cant beat them, join them. There are people who play for fun, also people who play to win. Pot, kettle, black can be a good gameplay in a perverse game. Be nice when they are nice, be evil when they are evil.
Jenny spitifires setups: Tempest. 3x Cloaking device//5x ECM//all ows wcs
=)
---------------------------
Originally by: Wrangler
Unfrtinately you dnot get to vote.. 
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Drizit
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.23 14:53:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Drizit on 23/07/2006 14:56:29
Originally by: Face Lifter
I recommend this change to fix log out abuse:
when log out or disconnect is detected by server, the player ship would stay in place for 10 seconds, then try to warp away.
10 seconds delay is going to be enough to make log out tactic useless for combat situations.
If you do this, then you have to create a solution for login traps as well. Both are exploits and both should be dealt with in an equal manner. To do one and not the other would create an imbalance that allows attackers to use exploits but not defenders.
For example: If I was caught by a dictor in a sphere and all his buddies suddenly logged in to pop me, I should be able to log out and escape. Fair is fair.
--
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Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.07.23 14:58:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 23/07/2006 15:02:22
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Vincent Gaines
and if you have a CTD and/or your internet connection suddenly drops?
no, that's not a solution.
There's a fundamental difference of opinion behind all this, and the two viewpoints are irreconcilable.
One says, "if you log during combat, you should die; if you crash accidentally, too bad, but we need to stop the loggers."
One says, "if you crash during combat, you must have a chance to escape; if people take advantage of that by logging, too bad, but we need to allow for accidents."
Take yez pick. CCP have tried very hard to cut a middle path, but there simply isn't one.
In a situation where you're basically dead anyway (bubbled in a gatecamp), logging out/crashing shouldn't save you. IMO.
As to "we can't tell players when they can and can't log out", sure, that's fair, but if they do it in a combat situation in order to save assets, they should have those assets removed. Again, IMO.
{edit} And personally, I wouldn't take "if you can't beat them, join them" as an answer, because a) it doesn't make it any more annoying when it happens to you, b) it makes you a hypocrite and c) there's this thing called "honour", I don't know if you've heard of it...
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Arkanor
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.23 15:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
there's this thing called "honour", I don't know if you've heard of it...
There's no honor in eve.
Balance the Gun/Missile skilltrees!
Originally by: kieron
rabble, Rabble, RABBLE, |
Amateratsu
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:00:00 -
[25]
Why do players log? simple, because they don't wish to lose time, isk and assets?
there is currently no counter to a dictor bubble, wcs's will not work, the only escape is to log off.
pirates are selfish, they camp gates with bubbles to get free easy kills and don't want their pray to be able to escape.
if you wanna stop players logging you have to give them an alternative means of escape, a chance to defend themselfs against the pirate gate ganks.
you can't expect a player caught in a gate gank to simply sit there and die with no chance of escape.
there needs to be balance.
on the other hand if a player initiates combat then logs to avoid losing then i agree that is an exploit, but a solo player minding his own business logging to escape a gate gank is fair play.
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Amateratsu
you can't expect a player caught in a gate gank to simply sit there and die with no chance of escape.
Yes we can. Why can't they expect to suffer and die if they didn't bother trying to avoid the thing in the first place?
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Marshy 3rd
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:21:00 -
[27]
If anyone has ever played neocron would know that when ya logged in that game you character was still online in its position for 20 to 30 seconds afterwards so it was pointless logging during a fight you were gonna lose.
There is nothing wrong with implamenting this in eve. You guys who say oh yea what about innocent people who lose connection during a battle hell its not gonna happen all the time is it. I lose connection sometimes and its annoying i use to in neocron and it was a pain coming back on to find myself dead but hey i excepted it and got on with the game. I have never used or come across this problem but if i new my ship was gonna be left on for 20 to 30 seconds after i logged then i woul dtake more care in where i go and where i log out to. A 20 to 30 second delay is a simple answer to this issue and had it been introduced when the game first come out no one would be none the wiser and wouldnt be moaning about it hurting the innocent people who lose connection. If you cant afford to lose a ship then you should not be flying it into 0.0 anyway. Or if you like leave the ship there if it gets blown up then maybe the pod could escape if you were logged off but at least make it so its not in the players interst to log out once they loseing a fight make them lose something.
http://www.xtreme-eve.co.uk |
Joerd Toastius
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:21:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Arkanor
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
there's this thing called "honour", I don't know if you've heard of it...
There's no honor in eve.
That's because you spell it wrong.
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Deja Thoris
Contraband Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:27:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Just do the same. Cant beat them, join them. There are people who play for fun, also people who play to win. Pot, kettle, black can be a good gameplay in a perverse game. Be nice when they are nice, be evil when they are evil.
Is the name of your corp an oxymoron with you in it?
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Amateratsu
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Amateratsu
you can't expect a player caught in a gate gank to simply sit there and die with no chance of escape.
Yes we can. Why can't they expect to suffer and die if they didn't bother trying to avoid the thing in the first place?
Which brings us back to the wanting free easy kills against players with no chance of defending themselfs.
if a group of players jumped into your camp and proceded to take it apart would you stick around and die with honor or would you try to escape?
yes you can avoid camps if you are smart, have a desposable alt that can scout ahead ect.
but if you are unlucky enough to get caught, you should still have a chance to defend yourself. even if only a very small one.
wheres the pvp fun in killing a defenceless target that posses no threat what so ever?
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Greekil
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:56:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Greekil on 23/07/2006 17:59:26
Originally by: RoMUF
Solution is simple. When you log off your ship should stay where it is. This will prevent people from logging out in space. Then you can only log out at a friendly pos or station.
Agreed.
Furthermore, you should stay in local, so that would prevent login traps too.
Also, it's plenty easy to avoid gatecamps if you have any sense at all. If you've been stupid enough to get stuck in one, you're going to die, end of story.
Sure, people with unstable connections lose out abit, but frankly that isn't important. That isn't CCP's problem, it's yours.
400x120@24000 bytes Maximum please. Mail [email protected] for more information. - Acario Vito |
Greekil
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.23 17:59:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Greekil on 23/07/2006 17:58:51
Grrr... Double post.
400x120@24000 bytes Maximum please. Mail [email protected] for more information. - Acario Vito |
Nev Clavain
Wise Guys
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Posted - 2006.07.23 18:25:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Greekil
Edited by: Greekil on 23/07/2006 17:59:26
Originally by: RoMUF
Solution is simple. When you log off your ship should stay where it is. This will prevent people from logging out in space. Then you can only log out at a friendly pos or station.
Agreed.
Furthermore, you should stay in local, so that would prevent login traps too.
Also, it's plenty easy to avoid gatecamps if you have any sense at all. If you've been stupid enough to get stuck in one, you're going to die, end of story.
Sure, people with unstable connections lose out abit, but frankly that isn't important. That isn't CCP's problem, it's yours.
Sometimes it is CCP's problem. The client is not stable on quite alot of people's machines. This is probably why CCP allow people who log off such safety, because they know their client is causing disconnects or crashes in particularly crucial in game moments.
Furthermore your suggestion about people staying in local when they log off is slightly nonsensical without qualification. Lof on traps can involve people being offline for long periods, so they would have to stay in local for possibly hours. This would actually make local totally useless for its primary purpose, which is communicating with people online in the same system. If people in local arent necessarily online, it doesnt make much sense does it?
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Dukath
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Posted - 2006.07.23 18:27:00 -
[34]
I have a very strong suspicion that if CCP finally takes the good step to implement persistency of ships that the game will 'magically' become a lot more stable.
As in, as soon as people realise that logging doesnt help the number of 'crashes' will drop to almost nothing.
Since the start of the game i've been trying to lobby for persistancy, one good step towards it was the autowarp, i really hoped that it would be the first step towards persistency since it gave people who really crashed time to log in again. Unfortunately CCP hasn't taken the next step yet, making the ship completely persistant, although that its very easy now to operate safely in 0.0.
Outposts, NPC stations, POSes, corpmates with carriers, all these things allow players to safely logoff anywhere in space.
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Arkanor
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.23 18:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Amateratsu
you can't expect a player caught in a gate gank to simply sit there and die with no chance of escape.
Yes we can. Why can't they expect to suffer and die if they didn't bother trying to avoid the thing in the first place?
Eve is all about taking every single advantage to win. These people are just applying the same concept to logins/logouts, after all, there's been no regulations on "lag tactics," scams, robbery, other forms of social engineering, etc that one might expect to be banned in another MMO.
Balance the Gun/Missile skilltrees!
Originally by: kieron
rabble, Rabble, RABBLE, |
AlienBreed
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Posted - 2006.07.23 19:38:00 -
[36]
Edited by: AlienBreed on 23/07/2006 19:38:14
Quote:
Eve is all about taking every single advantage to win. These people are just applying the same concept to logins/logouts, after all, there's been no regulations on "lag tactics," scams, robbery, other forms of social engineering, etc that one might expect to be banned in another MMO.
Thats a pretty lame attempt to justify cheating however i respond to it like this...
Consider that you come thru a gate, theres the camp and your ****ed. So you think "ah well i want to live so ill just cheat" and you log while cloaked
30 seconds later the guys in space see you uncloak and warp away and they are all like wtf? and you lived and "won" and all by "taking every single advantage to win"
What you have just done is make interdictors completely irrelevant, i mean the dictor might as well have never been there, and it certainly didnt/couldnt perform its intended function
Do you think thats acceptable ?
I wonder if i petition this CCP will give me back all the SPs i wasted getting a dictor that doesnt stop anybody ever (if they "take every single advantage to win") so i can put them somewhere useful
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Peter Armstrong
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.23 20:01:00 -
[37]
fraps them doing it and shame them!
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Tentacles Out
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Posted - 2006.07.23 20:36:00 -
[38]
First, I'm surprised there isnt a combat timer. Games have had them for quite some time now.
Second, I'm not a fan of logging out while in combat, but I'm also not a fan of players having skills that are not counterable (the bubble: this just going from what I read, not from experience). If there is no skill I can train that would allow me the chance to get away, then it behooves me to take whatever measures I deem necessary to counter that imbalance.
There is no third. :)
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Peter Armstrong
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.23 20:46:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tentacles Out
First, I'm surprised there isnt a combat timer. Games have had them for quite some time now.
Second, I'm not a fan of logging out while in combat, but I'm also not a fan of players having skills that are not counterable (the bubble: this just going from what I read, not from experience). If there is no skill I can train that would allow me the chance to get away, then it behooves me to take whatever measures I deem necessary to counter that imbalance.
There is no third. :)
T2 stab for bubbles? lol and i there shouldnt be skills to counter the bubble! other than fast ship and cloak!
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Desiderata Fabian
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Posted - 2006.07.23 20:48:00 -
[40]
My connection just logs out every few hours, it seems that for a few seconds the connectivity drops to zero, its regular, but random, and doesnÆt seem to have anything to do with the amount of time I've been connected. I've tried everything to stop it, switched my ISP a few times, replaced cables in my house... there really seems to be nothing I can do short of moving home. God knows how many ships I would have lost by now if it wasnÆt for the auto warp, its bad enough losing drones. 
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AlienBreed
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Posted - 2006.07.23 20:57:00 -
[41]
Quote:
My connection just logs out every few hours, it seems that for a few seconds the connectivity drops to zero, its regular, but random, and doesnÆt seem to have anything to do with the amount of time I've been connected
If your in combat and being shot at you dont get a free warp out when you drop.You used to but it was so widely exploited that it had to be changed. I know thats hard on people that really do drop but thats life, blame the people that couldnt stop exploiting 
This bubble situation is really no different imo
Quote:
T2 stab for bubbles? lol and i there shouldnt be skills to counter the bubble! other than fast ship and cloak!
No please, no T2 stabs
but like you said a fast ship will escape, at the very least you can just go back thru the gate, so ever cruisers have a fair chance of escape if they are set up right (hell ive got out of a bubble with an after-burner on a cruiser, not even a mwd)
I think bubbles are fine as they are, please make them work properly CCP
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Gao Xu
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Posted - 2006.07.23 20:59:00 -
[42]
Hello Eveons,
Let me describe to you my situation at present. For some reason my computer crashes unexpectedly. I haven't progressed far because I've rebooted my computer and signed on to play again over 20 times, conservatively speaking...it may be more. In one instance I confronted a pirate, who was chewing my shields and armor to peices, and I immediately made to warp out (I could have because there was nothing to inhibit me)...but my computer crashed. I rebooted, signed on, and my craft is spawned to the location where I was when I crashed...but...with significantly more damage. I jumped out immediately as one more pirate had teamed up with the other in the area.
Ask yourself this. If my craft did not disappear, and was taken by the pirate, is this fair? And before you say yes, how would you feel if this happened to you? For you more experienced players I have no doubt that you have had occasion where you have lost progress because of some fluke or another. I thought that considering the circumstances the tradeoff in the programming is justifiable. I did not die, but I spawned, not in a base or far away, but where I last was before I crashed.
Furthermore, I cannot conceive of all the technical problems that could occur to accidentally or intentionally log off, and I think that the programmers cannot possibly know for certain what will occur and when. With that said, I'm sure that the present programming instructions for log off are made to be as fair as possible to accidental log offs, which is the best place to start from. CONCORD, being what they are...and Police as they are...I expect that enough petitions about a certain group or individuals, followed up by CONCORD, and confirmed should incure sanction and expulsion from EVE. This is how law works in the U.S., is the most democratic way to do it, and because of the latter, should be instituted.
What do you think?
Gao Xu
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Dahak2150
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Posted - 2006.07.23 21:17:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Dahak2150 on 23/07/2006 21:22:09
So how does one separate manual logouts from....
Internet service dropouts
Power outages
Crash to desktops
Computer overheating (I get this a lot. Stupid vacuum never gets all the dust)
Child unplugging ethernet cable
etc?
In fact, I quite often have a bug that happens on my computer when I go through a jumpgate. My camera stays flying through space in the system I just left. I have no control whatsoever, but my ship is physically present in the next system. I have to log or I won't be able to do anything ingame. Ever again.
Here's what I see.....or don't see.
Until you can invent some magic mind-reading machine that reads someone's intentions behind an action, then no.
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AlienBreed
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Posted - 2006.07.23 21:29:00 -
[44]
Edited by: AlienBreed on 23/07/2006 21:31:58
Quote:
Here's what I see.....or don't see.
you have a hold full of veldspar...
and with all respect you dont look like the kind of player thats ever seen a bubble so you cant have a full understanding of this situation
In case anybody didnt know bubbles can only be dropped in 0.0 space
0.0 is a harsh and dangerous place and tbh if your PC crashes or you dis/con regularly then your going to die there anyway
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Dahak2150
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Posted - 2006.07.23 21:31:00 -
[45]
Originally by: AlienBreed
Quote:
Here's what I see.....or don't see.
you have a hold full of veldspar...
In case anybody didnt know bubbles can only be dropped in 0.0 space
0.0 is a harsh and dangerous place and tbh if your PC crashes or you dis/con regularly then your going to die there anyway
Was building a BC, needed more trit.
But it's the lack of neocom, controls, overview, etc that bugs me.
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Tar'noc Suud
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Posted - 2006.07.23 22:08:00 -
[46]
Oh my such a fun subject. I'm not an experenced player by any means, I only have 4 months under my belt. However in this time I have experenced play issues several times. Between sudden unexplained lag, to UI glitches, to actually being disconnected. In four of those cases I was engaged with RATs. Three of those times I almost lost my ship (in newbie space). The forth time the UI stopped respoding I figured I'd try to log off and back on. I warped back into the fight, no lag whatsoever, no UI issues, in 5 seconds the angels were dead.
Yes this can and has been used as an exploit. However odd **** does happen within the client. Saying it is tough luck just means you hope it is the other guy and not yourself. Losing fairly is one thing, I lost a new ship to a pirate, I took it like a big girl. However I would be cursing a storm if I had locked up and be unable to do anything about it.
Sadly, there is no real solution to this. Either innocent players get screwed, or they get screwed, either by game play issues or by cheaters. However not being a solution doesn't mean there cannot be some kind of work around. Exponentially charging a service fee in ISK for disconnecting/logging off during combat for one. The occasional glitch wouldn't be too bad, but long time exploiters would be paying out the ass for it.
-Tar'noc Suud
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ColWolfe
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Posted - 2006.07.23 22:12:00 -
[47]
*If* the enemy logged out and was given a 15 second delay while within Warp Disruption range of a Mobile Warp Disruptor or Warp Disrupt Probe before they could warp away, the problem would be solved. That gives any player within 20km a fair chance to warp Disrupt their target *If* the target is trying to use a log out tactic.
Incidentally, I have had no fewer than 20 targets use logging off in the last 2 weeks. The enemy in question is using it as standard operating procedure in my opinion.
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DarkSychon
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Posted - 2006.07.23 22:20:00 -
[48]
this may sound cheesy but mabey if they did what wow does and make you wait 20 seconds befor you could log off
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AlienBreed
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Posted - 2006.07.23 22:59:00 -
[49]
Quote:
Incidentally, I have had no fewer than 20 targets use logging off in the last 2 weeks. The enemy in question is using it as standard operating procedure in my opinion.
exactly
this isnt internet problems its cheating
i wonder now its common knowlage how bad it will become, cause if enough people get upset and moan about it maybe something will get done
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PC5
Bermuda Syndrome
Black Reign Syndicate
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Posted - 2006.07.23 23:14:00 -
[50]
Edited by: PC5 on 23/07/2006 23:19:04
Originally by: Trac3rt
Edited by: Trac3rt on 23/07/2006 10:09:14
I have seen two individuals use this tactic: SKRooster from BRS, and El Titan from BoB. Each time they logged out to save their ship/pod/implants from a bubble which would otherwise have sealed their fate.
This has been petitioned (by myself), and while the action falls squarely within CCP's definition of an exploit, the official response is that CCP cannot dictate when people are allowed to log in or out of the game.
Freighter pilots are rumored to do this all the time to escape gate camps.
It is not the most honorable thing to do, but is allowed by CCP so you should just accept it as part of the game and get on with your life.
OMG
Gues whos using logoff tactics? Remedial itself. You say pic or STFU. I say i have a video. He was poded, and loged out before losing his pod, unfortunetly ive poped him faster than he managed to logout. If you want ill upload the file. Poor kid.
Logoff tactis is used by many ppl and it dosent mater where you use it, is it a buble or clean fight in space.
There should be done something with this loging. I can say some other known names of logers but for what for? Just hope CCP does something about it. They MUST do something about it.
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Lord Frost
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.24 00:00:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Lord Frost on 24/07/2006 00:02:51
Originally by: RoMUF
Solution is simple. When you log off your ship should stay where it is. This will prevent people from logging out in space. Then you can only log out at a friendly pos or station.
I think a lot of people here missed the best solution. As quoted above. I'm tired of fixes that help one group, yet hnder another. It only intices more bad behavior. Logging in/out to avoid combat or gank is simply another crappy exploit... plain and simple.
To allow people for a log off timer is stupid... then we'll have whines about why there isnt a log in timer... come one. Its a vicious circle.
Simple like the man said... if you log out, your ship stays there until you log back in... same place, same spot... unless it gets shot down ofcourse. Make people log in at stations... or safe spots... however, those logged out in space, should not show in local, and should not be able to be scanned. But if they are found on pure luck... like someone logging out at a moon and getting whacked later... then they deserve it.
The best solution is right there in frount of your eyes CCP. Even if it hinders people, it hinders everyone... and that is a fair ground.
EDIT: as for crashing and losing your ship to npcs or whoever... well CCP needs to fix there own program... and if it happens... thats why we have petitions. 
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Arkanor
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.24 02:55:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Arkanor on 24/07/2006 03:00:38
Originally by: AlienBreed
Thats a pretty lame attempt to justify cheating however i respond to it like this...
FFS I was just offering an explanation, it's not like I endorse this stuff.
Offer someone 10,000,000,000 ISK and say someone will get mad if you take it but nothing else, what do you think 99.98% of eve players will do? Likewise, if someone puts themself in a stupid situation, they'll probably find a way out because few people in a dictor bubble are going to sit there and watch their ship die, regardless of the fact that they got themselves there.
Balance the Gun/Missile skilltrees!
Originally by: kieron
rabble, Rabble, RABBLE, |
Synapse Archae
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.07.24 03:18:00 -
[53]
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but any ship with an agression countdown remains in space for 15 full minutes after log out. You solution is scan probes. Drop 3 of them right where you are, scan out the ship and in 3 minutes, youre sitting on top of him killing his ship and pod.
Its that easy.
---------------------------------------------
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=349194&page=1Redo Fleets[/ur |
Kalixa Hihro
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Posted - 2006.07.24 03:52:00 -
[54]
Originally by: AlienBreed
...a pod in a bubble should not warp off under any circumstances and if you genuinely lose your connection well thats just hard luck - its not like a pod is going to pull some great tactical manuver that lets it escape...
ROFL
but true. I disagree that you can't get out of a dictor bubble in your ship. I've done it in a shuttle with a n00b alt.
Sequence of events:
I jump into system into dictor bubble dropped right in the center of gate.
I spin camera around to planet on same side of bubble as me.
I uncloak by aiming my ship to planet and start moving.
I spam warp until I am out of bubble.
I only had to go 2 kilometers which takes about 3-4 seconds.
Since I was already aligned at planet at full speed, warp kicked in instantly as soon as I was out.
I laughed because the gang had ceptors and should have been able to lock me and get me scrambled. Slackers...
In an inty I'd have gotten out even if they were competent.
/*----------------------------------------------------------------------------------*/
My opinion in no way represents that of my corp or anyone I am associated with, and is probably entirely wrong. |
Lorth
Synchro.
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Posted - 2006.07.24 05:22:00 -
[55]
Log off's arn't as bad as they used to be. The 15 min timer has at least made it so the majority of ships exploiting (and it is an exploit, even if its not punished as such) this ushalyl die anyways, even though thier pod may live.
What we need now, is a way to ensure that frieghter abusing the "log before flagged' bug can no longer do it. And perhaps, just keep the aggro timer extended for as long as you are being attacked for. I've personally lost two frieghter kills, because I was in a small ship, and didn't have the firepower to kill it within 15 min.
-------------
Recruit me |
Gouglash
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.07.24 07:00:00 -
[56]
I haven't had the horror of having people use that exploit to save freighters or other cap ships, yet, but I really hate that it is so much safer to just close your client when NPCing or mining than to warp to SS if an enemy enters local.
I've jumped into systems with ten in local, and had it drop to two or three within seconds, due to miners/NPCers logging off.
Very annoying.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.24 07:37:00 -
[57]
CCP should fix it when they fix login traps.
If they can't control people logging in, they can't control people logging out either. Being able to logout is probably even more critical than being able to login, for example when you get a phonecall or an (unexpected) visitor.
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spurious signal
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.24 08:23:00 -
[58]
What are people's thoughts on this idea:
Instead of allowing instant log out in space enforce a 30 second timer. You hit the log-out button and all modules on your ship deactivate and a 30 second timer counts down. At the end of the 30 seconds you log out as normal. Any action performed in the 30 seconds will stop the timer and cancel the log out.
If you are in a station you log out instantly. If you alt-F4 in space or kill the EVE task while in space your ship will still stay there for 30 seconds as if you'd hit the log-out button.
Idea stolen from WoW, seems to work fine there.
Thoughts?
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eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.24 08:41:00 -
[59]
Slight change to current system. Same agression timer and warping off after logging off, except if you are not agressed you warp to SS after 1 minute, once at SS you dissapear from space completely after 1 hour.
If you are agressed and you logoff you warp to SS after 5 minutes and dissapear from space after 10 hours.
If you are warp scrambled or in a bubble and you logoff (or this happens after you have logged off but before you warp away to SS or dissapear completely) then your ship does not warp to SS OR dissapear. It stays still until you are either dead or the agression timer wears off then the above mentioned times applies.
If you truely had a bad connection during a fight then think of it as your car breaking down on a really important trip (bad luck but it happens IRL and IG)
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Quereia
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Posted - 2006.07.24 09:38:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Quereia on 24/07/2006 09:39:11
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Arkanor
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
there's this thing called "honour", I don't know if you've heard of it...
There's no honor in eve.
That's because you spell it wrong.
Ever heard of the differences in English and American English spelling?  I tend to prefer the American typing myself, what's up with the useless extra Us in English anyway
To be on topic, yeah, logout and logon tactics are very lame, but when they will be properly addressed is another thing entirely. Hopefully soon, but...
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Arkanor
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.24 10:41:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Quereia
Edited by: Quereia on 24/07/2006 09:39:11
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
Originally by: Arkanor
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
there's this thing called "honour", I don't know if you've heard of it...
There's no honor in eve.
That's because you spell it wrong.
Ever heard of the differences in English and American English spelling? I tend to prefer the American typing myself, what's up with the useless extra Us in English anyway
To be on topic, yeah, logout and logon tactics are very lame, but when they will be properly addressed is another thing entirely. Hopefully soon, but...
I believe it was a joke.
Balance the Gun/Missile skilltrees!
Originally by: kieron
rabble, Rabble, RABBLE, |
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.24 11:02:00 -
[62]
don't get me wrong, logon traps should be punished too, yet another simple solution:
If you logout in space via a command (as opposed to a disconnect timeout) then when you login next your weapons are inactive for 2 minutes unless you logged out in a station.
If you timed out (which can be simulated also by pulling a network cable) then the same except 1 minute.
If more than 5 people login within 20 seconds of each other in a new system then all of those members (unless logging off in a station) are unable to warp or activate a gate or activate any hostile modules for 2 minutes.
Also when you log on you should always stay at SS not auto warp. This is not unfair if you consider my previous changes.
This means you should always logoff in stations (smart idea).
Logon traps will have a 2 minute delay (enough time to dock / warp to deep ss / call in backup.
If you are in deep SS without stations or escort then its your own silly fault if you get ganked.
Lastly add a map setting showing number of people logged off in X system. Fairly useless in empire but good in 0.0 where theres not so much traffic. |
Plutoinum
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.24 12:08:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 24/07/2006 12:12:17
/removed
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Sfynx
The Arrow Project
The ARR0W Project
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Posted - 2006.07.24 12:10:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Yes we can. Why can't they expect to suffer and die if they didn't bother trying to avoid the thing in the first place?
Because that is not human nature (and that of animals in general). A chance of survival or a certain death is an easy choice, there is nothing to lose by logging out in that case, only something to gain. Especially when flying an expensive ship.
Originally by: Synapse Archae
Perhaps I'm missing something here, but any ship with an agression countdown remains in space for 15 full minutes after log out. You solution is scan probes. Drop 3 of them right where you are, scan out the ship and in 3 minutes, youre sitting on top of him killing his ship and pod.
Its that easy.
If I jump through a gate, and encounter a omgwtfblob enemy fleet at the other side while I'm floating cloaked in the middle of a medium bubble, will I get aggression countdown after I logged out while cloaked, or will any pot shots after the actual client diconbnection not count for that? If those don't count, there will be no aggression timer and I'll disappear quickly as always.
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Dahin
Euphoria Released
Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.07.24 12:10:00 -
[65]
you wanna stop people from logging? Increase non-aggroed dissapearance timer to 3 minutes.
That should give the agressors enough time to bbq you in the point you warped when you logged and also will give miner/ratter loggers a run for their isk (ever gotten ****ed of with that? you show up in local and they log en masse).
The good thing with this is that it does not nerf in any way people that drop normally (no change in warpout mechanics) or logoff while not being hunted. The chances of some covops jumping in the system, finding you in the scanner and probing you within 3 minutes after you logged off without him hunting you are about 1 in a million.
Under the current mechanics, even if you have the probes out, scanning and he logs 20 secs before the scan is complete, they still get to survive. It's impossible to get people logging without aggro timer (be it on the gate while cloaked or while landing on the dictor bubble).
Again, since I know CCP's approach of "you should be able to always escape if you're ready", this system does not guarantee you getting killed if you're being stalked and you want to log. For example, take the goonies: I used to stalk their pos in S-U for hours upon hours with probes out and relentlessly probing. A couple of the logged on the last minute/s of their aggro timer and died a quick death. Under this scheme, they wouldn't be able to log anyway, since a 3 minute timer is way more than enough to probe them anywhere in a reasonably small system like S-U is (that is true for extreme probers). BUT, given the latest trend of observator probe supersafespotting, if you're organized enough to either have a bookmark like this or someone making you such a s-ss, it's virtually impossible to get caught (the chances of getting probed in a s-ss within 3 minutes, even under optimal circumstances for the prober are 0. You need 3 observator scans + a lucky 1au off result + warptimes, the secs add up to 5 minutes)
So there you go. This way we have:
* You still can log in/before combat, but if the enemy is prepared you're bbq'ed
* Accidental drops are not affected
* Logoffski tactics needs a bit more brain to them or you die.
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Jane Vladmir
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.24 12:58:00 -
[66]
Petition it, CCP won't warn him or ban him but they'll look into fixing it faster.
Hell, I got banned for 3 months for gang inviting an alt in a shuttle when he jumped through a gate but they won't ban people that intentionally abuse game mechanics to save their ships.
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Gene Starjumper
The xDEATHx Squadron
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Posted - 2006.07.24 13:25:00 -
[67]
Your best weapon to catch pilots that log off to escape a gate camp is to have a covert pilot fitted with a scrambler with you. Granted if the person escapes the camp without drawing agression, they only warp off for less than 1 AU so dropping 3 AU probes will deffinitely find him.
Even better if he draws agression, then you will have a full 15 minutes to find him.
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.07.24 15:21:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Sfynx
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Yes we can. Why can't they expect to suffer and die if they didn't bother trying to avoid the thing in the first place?
Because that is not human nature (and that of animals in general). A chance of survival or a certain death is an easy choice, there is nothing to lose by logging out in that case, only something to gain. Especially when flying an expensive ship.
Therefore, if you log out in such a position, you should always die. If it's impossible to survive while in game, it sure as hell should be impossible to survive by logging out of it.
________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Orree
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.24 17:12:00 -
[69]
Some people seem to be missing the point of the OP. The session change between ship destruction and pod boarding as well as after gate jump and before decloak gives people a window to drop connection without fear of being scrambled by modules, interdictor spheres or warp disruption bubbles. Unfortunately, these are also key times that legitimate CTDs occur, so you never really know for sure, but you can certainly discern a pattern with some people.
Yes..any act of agression committed on a ship or pod in situations other then the aforementioned does give you 15 minutes to probe out the logger and destroy them.
I think I know which alliance ColWolfe is talking about. We have actually named the maneouver "The <alliance name> Maneouver." It's somewhat akin to the "<alliance name> Combat Patrol" which consists of running a route in T1 frigs on instas, then, upon making contact with hostiles, running back down that route on instas.
Impressive stuff.
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