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Arian Snow
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.23 23:33:00 -
[1]
Hi I just did some DPS comparisons between the Raven, the Typhoon and Tempest. And came away really impressed with the Raven and very disapointed with the Minmatar.
Fittings of the tested ships:
Tempest: HIGH: 6*1200MM 2*Siege
Typhoon: HIGH: 4*1200MM 4*Cruise
Raven: HIGH: 6*Siege 2*Med Rails / 6*Cruise 2*Lar Rails
Now they are all very similarly tanked, on the Raven I could fit some BCS while maintaing the tank. I had a hell of a time fitting those artys in the Typhoon especially. there was no room for damage mods on the Minmatar ships if I wanted hardeners. 1400MM would kill the tank completely. All three are fittet with AB's also.
DPS is calculated as RAW, as in shooting a 0 resist wall at 1000m.
Ammo is std 100% range.
Numbers in () are with drones:
RAVEN DPS: 249 (334) / 191(275)
TYPHOON DPS: 110 (263)
TEMPEST DPS: 154 (240)
While some may argue that I use damage mods in the Raven and that is unfair it is basicly free to do so. Using it on the Tempest and Typhoon would seriously jeopardise their tank.
This is merely numbers I know and there are many other factors in combat than dps, still for missions dps and tank is crucial for survival and the raven simply tears through battleships much faster than the Typhoon and Tempest.
I have crap Missile skills, my gunnery is quite decent though so that is also a factor.
But simply put why would any want to choose another BS over the Raven for missions? Its not just incredibly easy to fly it deals terrific damage too, even artys at their best behaviour cannot come anywhere near them in dps.
I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all! |
Dethis
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.23 23:36:00 -
[2]
This needed a post? i thought it was just common knowledge
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Kill em all and let god sort em out
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Daos Leghki
Paxton Industries
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Posted - 2006.07.23 23:41:00 -
[3]
I'll not disagree here, but simply post that it's common knowledge that Min ships suck for PvE, and that arties suck for anything not dealing with burst damage. You would have gotten much better DPS using ACs, but then again, that means you have to get in range. Also, you'd have to warp out to get more ammo quite often.
Basically, I understand your concern, I agree with you, and everyone knows this already.
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Leandro Salazar
Aeon Industries
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Posted - 2006.07.23 23:48:00 -
[4]
Comparing Arty/Cruise setup (long range) with a Siege Raven ('short' range) is so wrong that it is not even funny.
A properly setup Siege/AC phoon actually comes close to a Raven in DPS. But it lacks the great gist tank and is more inconvenient to use due to only 4 missile launchers.
And yeah, that the Raven is by far the best mission ship is common knowledge that it really don't need another post. Why did I post?
Dunno, prolly coz I am still riled up from that stupid tourney shootout :(
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ZOMG my sig was concordokkened!
Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
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Nato Xemus
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.24 00:07:00 -
[5]
theres no need to put a ab on a raven the things are slow anyway that extra slot can be used to beef up your tank specialy if your doing missons
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Icesail
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Posted - 2006.07.24 00:31:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Icesail on 24/07/2006 00:34:40
Edited by: Icesail on 24/07/2006 00:33:05
What guns are you putting on the Raven? Also, I would assume most people flying Ravens with sieges slap a Heavy NOS to help with the tank, and after you fit a Full T2 tank and BCUs, I seriously dont think you have any pg/cpu for a large gun.
Also, if you go long range pest for missions, you would be using 6 x 1400s, or 4 x Siege, 4 x 1400s. (yuos, good luck fitting a tank.. but great support ship)
On the phoon, you did the math using 5 x Heavy drones? and why in the world would you not use Sieges, you can fit 4 x T2 Sieges and 4 X Large AC on that thing, or even 4 x T2 Sieges and 4 x 720 T2. If this is just to see what you can fit, try the math with 4 T2 seiges and 4 T2 1400s and 5 T2 Heavy drones.... or 4 T2 sieges and 4 T2 large ACs and 5 T2 heavy drones.. you will be shocked at the raw DPS of the phoon... ( as in good shocked, not the bad type).
Now, you do need to have very good skills to turn the Phoon into a killing and tanking machine, and since you will still be packing guns, you do need to worry about optimals and transversal and all that fun stuff, so Its a bit harder to use (read, you need to know what you are doing) than the Raven, with which you can just warp in and not move. But that does not make it any worse than Raven, and I am sure It has DPS at least same as Raven if not higher, once you count Heavy drones and the right weapons.
Give it a try....
Icesail
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Ras Blumin
Atomic Battle Penguins
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Posted - 2006.07.24 00:31:00 -
[7]
1400 2s vs cruise 2s
You can get a decent shield tank on tempest, so it isn't that bad off imo.
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Jin Steele
Fatalix Inc.
The Big Blue
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Posted - 2006.07.24 02:05:00 -
[8]
that dps seems off, i get around 320 in my raven against tanked guristas, round 40% resists, so that makes roughly 650 dps with sieges, and i have crap skills.
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Tyler Lowe
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.24 02:11:00 -
[9]
Yes, the Typhoon is horrible. Boost it some more please. 
J.A.F.O.
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Reinala
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.24 04:25:00 -
[10]
Artillery Tempest for missions can't be shield tanked anymore?
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Cruz
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.24 04:47:00 -
[11]
Your ****ting me right?
Tempest with 2 Gyros and 6 1200mm IIs w/ t1 EMP ammo, 2 empty high slots + 3 ogre IIs pulls off 582 dps...
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For the glory of the empire! |
Mike Yagon
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.24 05:09:00 -
[12]
1200mms on missions? I prefer 1400mms myself.
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Foulis
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.24 05:11:00 -
[13]
 Originally by: Arian Snow
RAVEN DPS: 249 (334) / 191(275)
TYPHOON DPS: 110 (263)
TEMPEST DPS: 154 (240)
TARANIS DPS: 200
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Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer
Boobies
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Cruz
eXceed Inc.
Ascendant Frontier
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Posted - 2006.07.24 05:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Foulis
Originally by: Arian Snow
RAVEN DPS: 249 (334) / 191(275)
TYPHOON DPS: 110 (263)
TEMPEST DPS: 154 (240)
TARANIS DPS: 200
Yah I dunno what kind of numbers your using :P If 220ish dps was all I needed to do lvl IVs I could just use my retribution 
I found about 300dps to be a minimum tbh.
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For the glory of the empire! |
SpaceDrake Taleweaver
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Posted - 2006.07.24 05:50:00 -
[15]
Edited by: SpaceDrake Taleweaver on 24/07/2006 05:52:52
Aren't you forgetting to factor two things in with the Tempest? ESPECIALLY in regards to PvE?
Hints: skills that require Memory/Perception; the lowslot/midslot combination.
EDIT: ah, you edited the post as I was writing this. DPS on the Phoon seems a bit more even now, yeah?
But now consider what the mids and lows let you do, as opposed to the Raven...
You may also want to consider how big certain weapons consider a Typhoon.
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What good are actions if there's no one to tell the tale afterward?...
Plays "Amarii Oulasangeri" ingame. Andre got solded! |
Mnengli Noiliffe
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Posted - 2006.07.24 07:02:00 -
[16]
domi with t2 ogres does 450 dps, before guns.
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HippoKing
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.24 07:08:00 -
[17]
Where the hell are your DPS numbers coming from?
Are you including skills?
Why exactly are you using the highest (only) damage ammo for missiles, but fairly pathetic damage for the projectiles?
Also, do you really think hitting 1000m away is arties speciality? Unless you were using 0 velocities...
Even then, quickfit damage calcs aren't the most reliable thing. Use a calculator
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Rick Dentill
PINK TACO TORPERS
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Posted - 2006.07.24 07:28:00 -
[18]
Following your 0% resistance example then dominix gets a much higher dps than the 3 examples you provide.
5 Heavy drone 1(with my skills not quite maxed - hvy 3 and bs 4)
Praetor 1 - 222
Berserker 1 - 251
Wasp 1 - 280
Ogre 1 - 309
Then add 250mm protos * 5 = dps 96 (my gunnery leaves much to be desired)
so combined we get
Praetor - 318
Berserker - 347
Wasp - 376
Ogre - 405
domi 4TW
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http://x-universe.kiwi.nu/page.php?id=dd |
eLLioTT wave
Art of War
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.07.24 08:23:00 -
[19]
i have to disagree,
nightmare, rattlesnake and machariel all make much better ratters than a raven. Armor tanking in nearly all cases is easier due to armor not having any 0% natural resists like sheilds do. Most NPC's / missions u dont need to heavily tank anyway. For example i once did a level 4 serp extrav in a geddon with 2 hardners and a large rep for tanking and that was fine (and fun).
As for t1 mission running ships, Raven is most popular but not necessary to do them, with drone skills the Domi is quite amazing and still very popular.
In order of popularity from what i've seen i would say:
1. Raven
2. Domi
3. Apoc
4. Mega
The typhoon post patch is quite a good ship and i wouldnt be suprised if it soon became a popular ratting ship as well.
As for your dps calculations you are comparing short to long range damage (as stated above) which is like comparing blasters to rail, arty to auto, torps to cruise, beams to pulse. (as someone mentioned above)
Hence your low minnie dps.
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Moornblade
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.24 16:31:00 -
[20]
Don't get me wrong, I love the Domi, but....
The mega DOES have a 125 m3 drone bay. That's enough for your 5 sentry drones.
At BS level 4, your drone DPS is 40% lower, but you can fit 7 425mm rails on a mega. Put 7 425 mm rails, and a drone link augmentor, and T1 only you can pound stuff into oblivion at ~100 km or so, and with T2 you can pound stuff at ~200 km; without waiting for flight time.
Your drones, of course, will be limited to the 70km or so range you'll get with Scout Drones 5, Electronic Warfare Drone Interfacing 4-5, and the 20km bonus from the link augmentor. 70km is just fine, however, for your sentries to be insta-popping frigates, and tearing cruisers to pieces. Plus, as an added bonus anything trying to close with you from 100km or so is going to take ridiculous amounts of damage between 70km and 30km.
A mega with T2 Ogres, or Sentry drones, fully maxed out against 0 resistance does something like 150-220 drone DPS alone. Add in the 200 DPS you'll be getting with 7 425mm, and decent T1 ammo, and you're pretty much rocking the house.
Of course, Gallente requires good fitting skills, and good gunnery skilles. Yadda Yadda. But don't overlook the megathron; both the Domi and the Mega are good ships.
Originally by: Rick Dentill
Following your 0% resistance example then dominix gets a much higher dps than the 3 examples you provide.
5 Heavy drone 1(with my skills not quite maxed - hvy 3 and bs 4)
Praetor 1 - 222
Berserker 1 - 251
Wasp 1 - 280
Ogre 1 - 309
Then add 250mm protos * 5 = dps 96 (my gunnery leaves much to be desired)
so combined we get
Praetor - 318
Berserker - 347
Wasp - 376
Ogre - 405
domi 4TW
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Jim Sharpe
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Posted - 2006.07.24 18:11:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Jim Sharpe on 24/07/2006 18:11:06
Picking the best mission ship looking at only DPS is nonsense.
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Dorah Hawkwing
Chosen Path
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.07.24 19:59:00 -
[22]
Aye.. who cares about DPS if the NPC's simply can't break your tank (Apoc) |
HippoKing
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.24 20:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dorah Hawkwing
Aye.. who cares about DPS if the NPC's simply can't break your tank (Apoc)
ISK/hour?
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Leronis
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Posted - 2006.07.24 21:39:00 -
[24]
Oh a mega with 425 is a nice ship.
Lots of level 4 missions are in deadspace and you'll have the problem to be in 10 km range to lots of ships beeing webbed .... .
There your 425 are hitting nothing so you only have your drones.
The dom with some 250th cruiser weapons will make much more damage than your mega in that situation.
When I remember my missions I am more close than far away so your theoretical more damage of the mega do not fit the missionreality.
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xenodia
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.24 23:23:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Arian Snow
Hi I just did some DPS comparisons between the Raven, the Typhoon and Tempest. And came away really impressed with the Raven and very disapointed with the Minmatar.
Fittings of the tested ships:
Tempest: HIGH: 6*1200MM 2*Siege
Typhoon: HIGH: 4*1200MM 4*Cruise
Raven: HIGH: 6*Siege 2*Med Rails / 6*Cruise 2*Lar Rails
As long as you were comparing, why didnt you look at the domi with equivilant skills (in other words, T2 heavy drones, and lvl 5 drone interfacing). Against your 0 resistance wall, a domi pilot with t2 ogres and maxed damage skills puts out roughly 475 dps with drones alone. Then add in another 100 or so DPS from a few railguns (assuming a couple highs are going to be either nos and/or drone range extenders), and the domi is like twice the DPS of your other test cases, AND it has as good or better tank than any of them as well.
Speaking as someone who flies both the Raven and the Domi, let me say this: Lots of people use Raven's for missions for one reason... its the easiest (quickest) battleship to be proficient enough in to solo lvl 4s. Like most caldari ships, the dependence on missiles mean that for a new player, theres less thinking you have to do while ratting, so noobs dont get overwhelmed. But once you start talking about pilots with a lot of skillpoints and experience, the raven really pales in comparison with other options that are available.
So... unless youre a carebear noob just starting lvl 4s, there most certainly are other choices than the raven.
TNT Killboard |
Arian Snow
Minmatar
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Posted - 2006.07.26 06:41:00 -
[26]
The numbers are calculated with minimal skills... so the DPS is very lowish I know, also its a bit shallow and all factors are not considered, Ill admit.
This was kind of an eyeopener for me! Its all theory but as I said DPS and tanking abillity takes presedence in missions, its all about the money! Compared to the minmatar ships the Raven really is a badass in missions (as you all know!)! Though I will still fly Mimmatar BS.
I dont remember I dont recall I dont have memory of anything at all! |
Quereia
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Posted - 2006.07.26 07:09:00 -
[27]
Why would you use Sieges for missions, really? Sure, with them DPS is better against battleship targets, but there's more non-BS targets than BS targets by far. As such, overall you pop things faster with cruise missiles. Eventually I plan to use a cruise Typhoon. At first I guess I'll have to use a siege Typhoon, before I skill up to cruises.
In any case, a T1 cruise Typhoon outdamages a T1 heavy drone Dominix by a noticeable margin, so I don't know what the other guy was doing with his Domi calculations. My main gripe with the Dominix is missions that it is indeed SLOW going about killing stuff. Typhoon should be noticeably faster, while having similar tanking capabilities. And no way in hell am I going to touch an ugly Raven
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 07:56:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Arian Snow
The numbers are calculated with minimal skills... so the DPS is very lowish I know, also its a bit shallow and all factors are not considered, Ill admit.
This was kind of an eyeopener for me! Its all theory but as I said DPS and tanking abillity takes presedence in missions, its all about the money! Compared to the minmatar ships the Raven really is a badass in missions (as you all know!)! Though I will still fly Mimmatar BS.
with minimal skills, you'll get killed by the first wave that features more than 3 elite frigates. your drones without drone interfacing 4 will do minimal damage to then, your missile the same. almost happened to me in a level 3 mission with ferox. luckily I did manage to kill the scrambling frig in time.
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at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is. |
TuRtLe HeAd
Apocalypse Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.07.26 08:00:00 -
[29]
Im I the only person that thinks that no one would ever fit a Tempest OR a Typhoon like that.
No wonder the raven comes out looking good in comparison.
(We all know the raven is the stronger of the ships) |
Hugh Ruka
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.07.26 08:03:00 -
[30]
Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd
Im I the only person that thinks that no one would ever fit a Tempest OR a Typhoon like that.
No wonder the raven comes out looking good in comparison.
(We all know the raven is the stronger of the ships)
well I am no minmatar pilot, but I think I'd prefer ac to arty in missions ... they alredy have good range and coupled with a few cruise launchers, should make no problems.
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at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is. |
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