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Liet Traep Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:28:00 - [1] Why were so many missile boats used at the alliance tourney? Because they're so much better than anything else. Missiles can be of any damage type, never miss and hit for full damage at 0 meters to 60 or more. They are simply put the best and easiest weapons to use. Other weapon types have drawbacks. Projectile weapons can vary their damage types and do more burst damage but lower dps. Blasters do great damage but have extremely limited range. Rails, great range, damage not so much as I understand. Also hybrids are limited to the most commonly tanked types of damage. Lasers, require the most cap, are very vulnerable to nos setups and have the hardest time. How many times has a new players asked what's the best ship to rat or agent run with only to get the same answer. Train for a raven. Look at the recent tournament. How many Rattlesnakes, CNR's and Ravens where seen. How many Vultures and Cerbs? Look at how many players are caldari. I think half I've been told? 4 races and half of all players play 1 of them. Why? Missiles are too good. It's just too easy to use them instead of other weapons. Very rarely like a long distance sniping fight, which while common in fleet combat is not as common as other activities. What hase been tried before. CCP already tried nerfing missiles and then adding new skills. People just trained them up and missiles are even better than before. What else can we try? I suggest some sort of countermeasure. Turret ships have tracking disruptors. Maybe some sort of guidance disruptor that effects a ships ability to guide it's missiles, affecting missile precision? Perhaps some sort of missile shield that works a little more efficiently than smartbombs currently do? Maybe just beefing up smartbombs and defenders. Another solution is the one I prefer. Up the fitting requirements. Make guided missiles require much more cpu. Unguided ones like rockets and Torps can stay the way they are. Make missile ships have to make more of a tradeoff. Sure you can fit a full rack of cruise but say bye-bye to your full rack of ecm or sensor dampeners. I have friends who fly gallente who moan about how tough fitting their guns can be. Missile boats have it easy by comparison. I don't hate caldari players. I don't want to make the game less enjoyable for them. I understand that they spent a lot of time and effort training their characters a certain way. I don't want to destroy the effectiveness of missiles. I just hate seeing things like the alliance tournament it seemed like every other team was using a CNR or Rattlesnake. I don't want missiles to be so completely ahead of other weapons that they're the only sensible weapon type. I think only minor tweaks would be needed. I know I didn't address drones as a weapon type. I feel they're too different and not easily comparable to turrets and launchers.I know some of these ideas, maybe all have been presented before. Doesn't matter, the situation still needs to be resolved. Anyway my .02 cents. Flame on!!!
Kulmid Nubs.	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:30:00 - [2] completely agreed, excpet for the full dmg part, on smaller ships, they don't hit as hard
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:34:00 - [3] Tourney has a strict set of rules. The ability to win a tourney is quite simple from my POV i.e. tank long enough to deal enough guaranteed damage. When your gang is limited to BS, Cruiser, whatever, you need enough support ships, distance and consistent damage to have a very high chance of winning. Tourney != DayToDayPvP; ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:34:00 - [4] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 24/07/2006 09:35:05 ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:38:00 - [5] Originally by: Liet Traep Why were so many missile boats used at the alliance tourney? Because that tourney had right about nothing to do with real PvP seeing how you needed no EW and no tackling. In essence, it was PvE, except the E was human controlled too. And we all know how missiles shine in PvE and how that is not supposed to change PvP balance. Once you have to compromise your shieldtank with EW and tackling gear, once enemies can warp off before your missiles hit, stuff becomes a lot more balanced (disregading the current 'slight' ECM imba). --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
Ashraaf GandY Inc.	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:38:00 - [6] I'm caldari so i'm just start to disagree with you In tournament it's so different that what you see in game. Yes for mission runner Caldari ship like Caracal, Raven, Cerberus and CNR or Rattle are top ship. Shield tanking do it and the delay for missile to hit is not very important. After your missile hit the target => Die without thincking But that only a little part of the game In other part caldari missiles ship are not so great. You don't see many Raven in gang or fleet. Without any alpha-strike capacity. Limited tanking to use Ecm you don't see many of them. The extreme wulnerability to nos or drainer. And the massive cost of shield boosting make them not a very fine option (Except with TII ammo but it's another problem) in a tournament caldari ship could do it. The alpha strike is not really important. You have no ecm so all the med slot can tank. No need for scrambler. And the limited area make it that you could not adjust range as you wish I'm not sure that tournament could be the good example for pvp in Eve The sole guy i knew to put maximum use of his raven is Tank Ceo. And i really want to know if he still pilot a raven
Liet Traep Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:38:00 - [7] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Tourney != DayToDayPvP; I understand that Jenny. But fact remains that missiles are so much more flexible than any other similar weapon systems. Long range fleet battles are the only situation, albeit an important one where it's not the optimal weapon system. Missiles are easily the best weapon system in Eve.
Liet Traep Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:45:00 - [8] Nice to see so many responses already. Glad to see so many Eve addicts on this time of the morning. And Jenny good seeing you again.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:48:00 - [9] Originally by: Liet Traep Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Tourney != DayToDayPvP; I understand that Jenny. But fact remains that missiles are so much more flexible than any other similar weapon systems. Long range fleet battles are the only situation, albeit an important one where it's not the optimal weapon system. Missiles are easily the best weapon system in Eve. Depends on the situation to be honest. What is best in a situation is not best in others. For tourney, tank, distance and consistent damage requirements fit Caldari. Droneboats are kings if you can get them into close range. Again my POV, Caldari and Gallente ships are best suited for tourney and it really depends on where you start the fight. Caldari will have a slight advantage because they get to spam at a distance first. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:49:00 - [10] Originally by: Liet Traep Nice to see so many responses already. Glad to see so many Eve addicts on this time of the morning. And Jenny good seeing you again. Just roaming a bit on forums >_< ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2006.07.24 09:57:00 - [11] i would like to see a defender missle boost and a TII version for defenders which is more effective. somert of 50% chance of missle destruction for T1 and 60% for T2. anyway this is a devs job and not mine so it is up to them making the balancing. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:03:00 - [12] please stop using the tournament as an argument for ship ballance ... it has restricted rules. 1. caldari are the 1st race in the race selection screen, also have the best description 2. missile boats are used for PvE, because NPCs are stupid and missions are not very good set up. throw in a frig wave or two and every Raven will have to bail out. 3. I use scorp for belt ratting and PvP support with jammers. however I use moa/ferox with blasters or rails for normal PvP. guess why. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:04:00 - [13] Originally by: Reto i would like to see a defender missle boost and a TII version for defenders which is more effective. somert of 50% chance of missle destruction for T1 and 60% for T2. anyway this is a devs job and not mine so it is up to them making the balancing. nobody would use them anyway ... ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Alliaanna Dalaii Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:06:00 - [14] Whats with the constant "you dont see many Ravens in gangs" arguments... huh ? Where do you live, cos theres plenty ! Go look up your average ganks on some killboards and you will find a hell of a lot of Ravens and Scorps on them. Caldari is overpowered in terms on NPC'ing and ridiculously simplistic in terms of PvP. Change needed please. Alliaanna Sorry Jenny Official Spokestard of=-= Does Not Compute =-=
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:07:00 - [15] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/07/2006 10:14:59 Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/07/2006 10:10:35 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Liet Traep Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Tourney != DayToDayPvP; I understand that Jenny. But fact remains that missiles are so much more flexible than any other similar weapon systems. Long range fleet battles are the only situation, albeit an important one where it's not the optimal weapon system. Missiles are easily the best weapon system in Eve. Depends on the situation to be honest. What is best in a situation is not best in others. For tourney, tank, distance and consistent damage requirements fit Caldari. Droneboats are kings if you can get them into close range. Again my POV, Caldari and Gallente ships are best suited for tourney and it really depends on where you start the fight. Caldari will have a slight advantage because they get to spam at a distance first. Actually its not just the tournament. I dont know if you saw the other post about raven dps with tuxfords graphs, but raven has almost the damage of a blaster boat AT ANY RANGE. Thats not balanced. Every other non-missile ship have to be in range and its guns must track the target. No other ship can deliver that damage and at the same time disregard range completely. How can anyone think this is balanced? Tuxfords graph on missiles and blaster dps Also please have in mind the 6 med slots the Raven has. Its tank can be unreal if the pilot prefers tanking instead of using electronic warfare, but why would he... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:13:00 - [16] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: Liet Traep Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Tourney != DayToDayPvP; I understand that Jenny. But fact remains that missiles are so much more flexible than any other similar weapon systems. Long range fleet battles are the only situation, albeit an important one where it's not the optimal weapon system. Missiles are easily the best weapon system in Eve. Depends on the situation to be honest. What is best in a situation is not best in others. For tourney, tank, distance and consistent damage requirements fit Caldari. Droneboats are kings if you can get them into close range. Again my POV, Caldari and Gallente ships are best suited for tourney and it really depends on where you start the fight. Caldari will have a slight advantage because they get to spam at a distance first. Actually its not just the tournament. I dont know if you saw the other post about raven dps with tuxfords graphs, but raven has almost the damage of a blaster boat AT ANY RANGE. Thats not balanced. Every other non-missile ship have to be in range and its guns must track the target. No other ship can deliver that damage and at the same time disregard range completely. How can anyone think this is balanced? because the graphs don't take flight time into account ? it is non existent for guns, so is ignored for missiles also. there is an initial delay until the missile damage hits. DPS graphs done with turret rules are misleading. Missiles do average damage. Turrets have varied results depending on range and other factors. Just turret users do not accept their disadvantages with advantages. If tanking was a viable defense option, you'd see that missile users would have a hard time with some targets because there is NOTHING they could do to break their tanks. However this would be different for turrets. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:21:00 - [17] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/07/2006 10:22:38 Originally by: Hugh Ruka because the graphs don't take flight time into account ? it is non existent for guns, so is ignored for missiles also. there is an initial delay until the missile damage hits. DPS graphs done with turret rules are misleading. Missiles do average damage. Turrets have varied results depending on range and other factors. Just turret users do not accept their disadvantages with advantages. If tanking was a viable defense option, you'd see that missile users would have a hard time with some targets because there is NOTHING they could do to break their tanks. However this would be different for turrets. This argument always come up. The flight time is just a few seconds in most fights. Cruise missiles are FAST. Torpedoes not so fast, but instead hit for alot more damage. The few seconds of no damage in the beginning of a fight doesnt really make any difference in a fight. Missiles do NOT do average damage. Check the graphs or do your own math and you will find this out for yourself. There is nothing average about it. Its close to the top, at any range. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:22:00 - [18] My view. Hugh wrote better than me and I agree with him. In an ideal combat, Tempest scores during first quarter of engagement. Second to half favours Apocalypse. Third quarter favours Raven. End game favours Megathron. The simple rule is, if you dont win in the period where your BS shines in, you have lost the fight. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Hugh Ruka because the graphs don't take flight time into account ? it is non existent for guns, so is ignored for missiles also. there is an initial delay until the missile damage hits. DPS graphs done with turret rules are misleading. Missiles do average damage. Turrets have varied results depending on range and other factors. Just turret users do not accept their disadvantages with advantages. If tanking was a viable defense option, you'd see that missile users would have a hard time with some targets because there is NOTHING they could do to break their tanks. However this would be different for turrets. This argument always come up. The flight time is just a few seconds in most fights. Cruise missiles are FAST. Torpedoes not so fast, but instead hit for alot more damage. The few seconds of no damage in the beginning of a fight doesnt really make any difference in a fight. Missiles do NOT to average damage. Check the graphs or run some spreadsheets with t2 ammo and you will find this out for yourself. There is nothing average about it. Cant compare cruise with blaster. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:27:00 - [20] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire My view. Hugh wrote better than me and I agree with him. In an ideal combat, Tempest scores during first quarter of engagement. Second to half favours Apocalypse. Third quarter favours Raven. End game favours Megathron. The simple rule is, if you dont win in the period where your BS shines in, you have lost the fight. In this scenario you must have the ships 150 km away from eachother or something. Its simply not representative for what small group/solo pvp is like, and should not be used as measurement if the raven is balanced or not. How would you like it if the blasterthron could hit out to 50k with full damage, always hitting, 10 seconds after the fight starts? Its the same thing. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Ryoka	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:28:00 - [21] what are you guys talking about? a raven and caldari ships in general suck pretty much for pvp, in a support role they rock, but thats about all can in pvp. a raven almost having the damage of a blasterthron... what are you smoking mate?? missile damage output is crap, period!, its is way lower than ANY turret damage output, yes it doesnt have tracking and yes it can hit at any range but thats all it can. killing smaller ships with missiles is real fun any expirienced raven pilot can tell you (here goes the trracking) and pvping at ranges above 30km is well... by the time your missiles hit youre dead or your target has warped off anyway... a basterthrton outdamages a raven (torps) by over 50%... so, shove that crap about superuberkill missiles up somewhere..
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:35:00 - [22] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Jenny Spitfire My view. Hugh wrote better than me and I agree with him. In an ideal combat, Tempest scores during first quarter of engagement. Second to half favours Apocalypse. Third quarter favours Raven. End game favours Megathron. The simple rule is, if you dont win in the period where your BS shines in, you have lost the fight. In this scenario you must have the ships 150 km away from eachother or something. Its simply not representative for what small group/solo pvp is like, and should not be used as measurement if the raven is balanced or not. How would you like it if the blasterthron could hit out to 50k with full damage, always hitting, 10 seconds after the fight starts? Its the same thing. I am guessing close to mid-range. Yes, it isnt a representative or group/solo. Problem with EvE is there are too many variations of mods, distance, optimal, etc. that makes it difficult to say what ship is better and hard to balance. BTW, third and fourth places are usually close between Raven and Megathron for me. I put Megathron last because they really can give good punishment as well as receiving it. Like I said earlier, what is best for a situation isnt best for another. This sentence alone negates all the nonsense we have just discussed. Tourney matches arent supposed to be used as a reason for game balancing e.g. missiles. IMHO, Caldari/missiles are very balanced. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:36:00 - [23] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/07/2006 10:36:29 Originally by: Ryoka what are you guys talking about? a raven and caldari ships in general suck pretty much for pvp, in a support role they rock, but thats about all can in pvp. a raven almost having the damage of a blasterthron... what are you smoking mate?? missile damage output is crap, period!, its is way lower than ANY turret damage output, yes it doesnt have tracking and yes it can hit at any range but thats all it can. killing smaller ships with missiles is real fun any expirienced raven pilot can tell you (here goes the trracking) and pvping at ranges above 30km is well... by the time your missiles hit youre dead or your target has warped off anyway... a basterthrton outdamages a raven (torps) by over 50%... so, shove that crap about superuberkill missiles up somewhere.. Actually i have to ask what YOU are smoking... are we playing the same game? This post is just really stupid. But i guess thats what i get for not providing any graphs.. makes people just throw stupid number out there as facts. I was refering to tuxfords graphs here. Maybe im not reading them right then? Have to try and play around with naughtyboys spreadsheets... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Hugh Ruka Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:41:00 - [24] Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/07/2006 10:22:38 Originally by: Hugh Ruka because the graphs don't take flight time into account ? it is non existent for guns, so is ignored for missiles also. there is an initial delay until the missile damage hits. DPS graphs done with turret rules are misleading. Missiles do average damage. Turrets have varied results depending on range and other factors. Just turret users do not accept their disadvantages with advantages. If tanking was a viable defense option, you'd see that missile users would have a hard time with some targets because there is NOTHING they could do to break their tanks. However this would be different for turrets. This argument always come up. The flight time is just a few seconds in most fights. Cruise missiles are FAST. Torpedoes not so fast, but instead hit for alot more damage. The few seconds of no damage in the beginning of a fight doesnt really make any difference in a fight. Missiles do NOT do average damage. Check the graphs or do your own math and you will find this out for yourself. There is nothing average about it. Its close to the top, at any range. Ah I did not use the right word. I should have used constant. Anyway, I tried to figure out how Naughty's excel sheet works, but gave up. In case he reads this, I'd like to see a graph that compares following: raven, t1 siege, 3t2 bcu no drones (just to compare guns) megathron, t1 ion blaster, am and thorium ammo, 3t2 mag stabs range is set at 7km, transversal of raven vs mega should be about 30-50. Graph should be cumulative damage until initial clip is empty. I think what you'll see in both cases is a head start for the mega that it will keep until the clips are empty. ------------------------------ at least fit ECCM before you start crying how overpowered ECM is.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:43:00 - [25] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 24/07/2006 10:44:51 Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Like I said earlier, what is best for a situation isnt best for another. This sentence alone negates all the nonsense we have just discussed. Tourney matches arent supposed to be used as a reason for game balancing e.g. missiles. IMHO, Caldari/missiles are very balanced. IMHO, its not. The ability to hit out to any range with that kind of damage is overpowered, specially combined with the tank a raven can have with 6 medium slots. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:44:00 - [26] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Anyway, I tried to figure out how Naughty's excel sheet works, but gave up. In case he reads this, I'd like to see a graph that compares following: raven, t1 siege, 3t2 bcu no drones (just to compare guns) megathron, t1 ion blaster, am and thorium ammo, 3t2 mag stabs range is set at 7km, transversal of raven vs mega should be about 30-50. Graph should be cumulative damage until initial clip is empty. I think what you'll see in both cases is a head start for the mega that it will keep until the clips are empty. I know, that spreadsheet is a little confusing.. do you have a link to it? I want to play with it some more.... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:45:00 - [27] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Like I said earlier, what is best for a situation isnt best for another. This sentence alone negates all the nonsense we have just discussed. Tourney matches arent supposed to be used as a reason for game balancing e.g. missiles. IMHO, Caldari/missiles are very balanced. IMHO, its not. The ability to hit out to any range with that kind of damage is overpowered. And so is the ability to insta-lock and insta-pop? ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Deja Thoris Contraband Inc.	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:47:00 - [28] It's not just missiles, its a combo of missiles and the fact that the raven shield tanks. For the tourney crystal implants were probably the best set to use.
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:50:00 - [29] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire And so is the ability to insta-lock and insta-pop? You are refering to tempests sniping here, from 160 km away? It takes several tempests to insta-pop another battleship using their alpha strike, and you know it. The dps of artillery tempests is very low. All it can do is snipe. I dont see why you keep bringing up sniping and fleet battles as examples of how balanced the ships are. With that logic, the blasterthron should really suck then, never getting in range? --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Anasur	Posted - 2006.07.24 10:52:00 - [30] Ok, people need to stop referring to that graph of Tuxfords showing turret/missile damage. It was describing ONE launcher or turret. Most gunships carry more turrets than missile ships carry launchers. Raven has 6 launchers, most blaster boats are 7-8. So blasters do even more damage. I watched the tournament, I saw a lot of Ravens. I also saw a lot of Fleet Tempests, Machariels, and other ships. And lets not forget that this was a tournament which outlawed EWar, so the fact that mounting a tank and a lot of ewar is damn near impossible for a shield tanker was irrelevant, a major blow to the armor tankers. It was not real PVP Missiles have severe handicaps to go along with their benefits. Torps take forever to hit a target at any kind of range. A guboat WILL do a lot more DPS than a raven. And torpedos are less effective against small targets, since a web doesn't let you smoke them like most gunships can. I fly ships with missiles, and ships with turrets. Sometimes one is better, sometimes the other is. Just because missiles work differently it does not make them overpowered for gods sake, lol.

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