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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1348
   |
Posted - 2014.08.24 20:25:00 -
[1] - Quote
Once you realize that occupancy is a completely broken game for people with too much time and alts, the happier you will be.
It wasn't the lp that broke it either. It was broken before lp.
"It took less than a week to achieve the maximum faction warfare rank (Divine Commodore), GǪ.111 faction warfare complexes were captured GǪ I did not kill anyone in the process..Gǥ Ankhesentapemkah Posted - 2008.06.18 02:29:00
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1348
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Posted - 2014.08.25 12:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Once you realize that occupancy is a completely broken game It's only broken if you don't win. /o\ Mmm, CAOD is that way >>>>>>> Sorry, trollposts are the only valid response to whine posts. The "Gallente are the favored sons of Eve" and "Plexing Alts win FW" are last year's excuses. And they would make perfect sense if not for the fact that Gallente have always had the worst rats to deal with, and we've thrived even though Caldari have always had more alts than us (until about 30 days ago).
XG it was bad when Caldari won and Ank posted about capturing 100 plexes in 2 weeks without a single kill, and its bad now that Gallente are winning and you post about your alt capturing 100 plexes in 2 weeks. Both posts show fw is broken. The same problem exists - occupancy is most efficiently won by rabbit plexing. CCP has said they will address this for years but never has.
As for the rest:
Gallente lost all the systems for a long time when they had the worst rats in plexes.
If you mean the worst rats in missions well that likely helps you win faction war occupancy (or at worst it is a wash) because it makes plexing a relatively better way to get lp. When plexing is the best way to get lp you will have more people plexing/winning occupancy and less people just watering down your lp by mission running.
You yourself admitted your alt was averaging about 1000 vp per week. Other Gallente are speaking up about how great having defensive plexing alts in the game. Every faction has peoplle who are very interested in plexing. They almost always have alts Minmatar had Sasawong with sheltering sky, FHP had too many alts to count.
Denying that fw occupancy is a game for alts is denying the validity of basic arithmetic.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1348
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Posted - 2014.08.25 13:12:00 -
[3] - Quote
Rinai Vero wrote:So much truth right there. We didn't hold our home systems with alts.
I see plenty of alts deplexing home systems and I have seen plenty of gallente admitting that. Every faction does that if they want to sit in a home system in fw.
But even if you were right, so what? You were at best at tier 2 holding your "home" systems. You cant move up the tiers until you get your alts are out there plexing systems. If faction war were a game where people had to fight 2 fights on average for each plex or the timer would rollback it would be a completely different game. It would be a game based on pvp. Now its the other extreme where 10 out of 11 plexes are captured without a fight. Plexing for occupancy is a non-starter for people who like to pvp.
Sure I like to go in plexes to find fights in busy systems , but I am not going to wait around after the fight to close the plex. No one will even know I am there to fight me! I don't pretend that what I am doing is nearly as helpful for the occupancy war as those who put multiple alts in the game and rabbit plex. If I really wanted to help my militia win the occupancy war I would buy another video card so I can plug in more monitors and buy more accounts and sit my alts in plexes. They could just run if someone comes in and plex a few systems down. Those are the people who are having the biggest impact on the war. If that is your idea of good game design then you will not want to change it. But IMO that just shows the game needs some changes to the mechanics.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1348
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Posted - 2014.08.25 13:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:No one denied having alts. Just corrected you since you seem to believe people still capture systems with them and their d-plexing capabilities somehow fend off a determined assault.
In a way deplexing alts have ensured that every single system taken is done with some sort of pvp capable force.
Now, continue to entertain us with your presupposed grievances with a mechanic you try very hard to misunderstand.
Bottom line: Your militia can either muster up a large blob to hold one system long enough to take it, or there is nothing you can do to really contribute to the occupancy war.
FW = Null sec junior. Instead of blobs of 2000 battleships supporting caps and supers, we have blobs of 200 destroyers. \o/
IMO fw should involve a completely different type of warfare. Like Master Sergeant MacRobert keeps saying eve should have opportunities for all sorts of play styles. If you like the idea of blobbing a single system and winning a war based on being able to do that there is already null sec.
IMO FW should be for a different type of fighting. It should involve more than winning because you can put a bigger blob in a single system or 2. It should be constant fighting spread out throughout the war zone.
You should have to care if someone is plexing up your system enough to go fight them. You should think well I can just put an alt in there and deplex after he leaves. Timer rollbacks will frustrate alt rabbit plexers and thereby make it more important to fight the guy offensive plexing to begin with.
Irya Boone wrote:so just kill the alts ...
They just run a system or 2 over and plex there.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1349
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Posted - 2014.08.25 15:59:00 -
[5] - Quote
Deacon Abox wrote:Cearain wrote: FW = Null sec junior. Instead of blobs of 2000 battleships supporting caps and supers, we have blobs of 200 destroyers. \o/ I don't think I've yet seen a galmil fleet with 200 members, and that's in 2 and half years in galmil. So it appears you are just pulling a number out of your ass. Anyway, Caldari always had more characters until recently. And for a long time they could put together some rather large blobs (better than us in US prime even). Blobbage is all relative. But please 200, more like always less than 100 on either side is more accurate.
I meant total participants including all militias that join to fight in a system and neutrals that might join. Yes I was being charitable. The blob warfare is more like "baby null sec" than "null sec junior." The reason we don't get those sorts of numbers despite having 20,000 in faction war is because faction war is currently a game for alts.
But my point is still the same get the numbers to pile in a single system long enough and you win. Even if we had 2000 people fighting for a system it still would just be mirroring null sec. IMO FW should involve a different form of pvp.
And your saying Caldari had more characters is irrelevant. When there are only 200 showing up for a fight who cares if one militia has 5,500 and the other only has 5000? Very few are in it for the pvp because its not really a pvp system.
Deacon Abox wrote:Cearain wrote: IMO fw should involve a completely different type of warfare. Like Master Sergeant MacRobert keeps saying eve should have opportunities for all sorts of play styles. If you like the idea of blobbing a single system and winning a war based on being able to do that there is already null sec.
IMO FW should be for a different type of fighting. It should involve more than winning because you can put a bigger blob in a single system or 2. It should be constant fighting spread out throughout the war zone.
You should have to care if someone is plexing up your system enough to go fight them. You should think well I can just put an alt in there and deplex after he leaves. Timer rollbacks will frustrate alt rabbit plexers and thereby make it more important to fight the guy offensive plexing to begin with. Gathering forces together, blobbage if you will, is necessary to contest a home system.
I agree blobbage - gathering forces and putting them in one system is key to the current system. But home systems are irrelevant. to the tier system.
Deacon Abox wrote:
How the Caldari got to their last remaining system again is a combination of the tier lp payout feedback loop inducing farmers to plex mostly for the side that already has an advantage, and the better ability of Galmil to pvp siege Caldari home systems. One of these factors CCP can address. The other is out of their hands.
Gallente can get a bigger blob in a single system to take the system. Then they have a larger number of alts to hold those systems. That is all there is to it.
The system is not that unbalanced it's just that if you aren't interested in having multiple alts rabbit plexing the game has no interest. Amarr had allot of systems and they are losing them to oplexers. Gallente just had a few large pushes but most systems became contested and fell because no one from caldari or amarr really wanted to multibox a bunch of defensive plexing alts. Well at least one guy did for amarr but I hear he biomassed his character. 
Make the occupancy game pvp and you make if fun. Most pvpers don't care whether they get an extra 500lp plexing for one side or the other. Nor do they care if they get some medal of high five from a dev. Does plexing bring about exciting fights? If yes they will do it. Actually allot more people will plex if it did that. But it doesn't. Plexing is most efficiently done in a system where no enemy even knows your there and if one happens to wander in your best avenue for occupancy is to simply warp out and start another plex in the next system. Come back to the plex later and it will be right were you left it because pvpers aren't interested in the current occupancy game.
As far as balance:
Capturing large plexes for amarr you get 2 million in tags for each npc killed. Thats about 120 mill per hour. (assuming you kill one per minute) So even if you lose time on the plex you still wont drop below that. You can easilly do this in a stabbed shield tanked vexor. Then when you capture the plex you get 30k lp at tier 2. That will get you about 3k isk per lp. So its not the case that the rewards are too slanted.
I think the tides will change. But they will likely change because people in gallente will find better things to do with their lives than sit rabbit alts in plexes. Most normal people get burnt out on that. After Gallente got there first medal we heard many of the pvpers happy that was over and glad to get back to pvp. (and kills went up allot after the plexing campaign) It's a rare bird that keeps at occupancy plexing for a long time. In sum the tides will change because the game is too boring for most people to keep at it.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1349
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Posted - 2014.08.25 16:31:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:Cearain wrote:Irya Boone wrote:so just kill the alts ... They just run a system or 2 over and plex there. How can people that lose at FW be so adamant they understand it better then those that win, and have fun while doing so? You really need to join a militia that wins occasionally. People that are adamant they understand the game better than the people beating them are pretty annoying.
All the factions have been winning and losing at faction war since it came out. The basic problem of rabbit plexing has never been addressed. It existed in 2008 when ank posted about capping over 100 plexes in 2 weeks without a kill and it exists now with XG talking about capping 100 plexes with his alt in the same amount of time.
I see with my eyes what happens in the warzone. I see the alts warping off. I see the api statistics and look at the killboards of those who get the most vp for a day. I see that when one side has sufficiently more numbers in a fleet the other side - yes even gallente - stands down. Plenty of my time in huola was spent plexing while gallente/minmatar pilots sat there docked up because they simply didn't have the numbers. When they had the numbers amarr/caldari stood down. I don't need to drink the kool-aid certain people offer on these forums about occupancy proving some sort of pvp prowess. I believe my own eyes more than what I read in the forums.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1349
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 02:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
Princess Nexxala wrote:lol! Honestly I really wish I was the bitter prick people like you make me out to be. I really do. Oh what fun that would be...
I also wonder what it would be like.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Very serious post, was only expecting squid tears, but some qcats tears is a bonus!
Push has been going on for weeks (with some awesome action) and qcats CEO doesnt even know about it, kinda illustrates how sadly redundant they are....
Aww you are upset, being wrong about something as inconsequential as qcats leadership is understandable. Some great pilots, in a once great corp. Many of the active ones helping with the push, polesmokers right, lol.
If you dont like FW, then its probably time to leave. Hardly anyone would notice.
Qcats is probably the best thing to come out of faction war let alone gallente. But because they are not intimately involved in your latest round of alts orbitting buttons they are inconsequential? Ok.
Sorry to see a few great pvpers are leaving but I certainly understand.
Did gallente "win" again? If so congrats I hope you get another medal and another high five.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1351
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Posted - 2014.08.26 16:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:
I, for myself, would unite all fourr milita and wage war on null sex.
We would get maybe 200 guys in destroyers. I don't think we would do very well against 2000 players in caps and battleships. The other 20,000 in the militias are just alts milking the lp.
Those who play Null Sec Junior blobbery, should not try to play against the varsity blob teams.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1351
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:27:00 -
[9] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:Your Huola observation is a good example, I was on for that period more than the average, forgive me if I'm wrong but I remember you being in local for a handful of hours towards the last couple of days. Burn Huola was a two week affair to begin with. My timezone (+/- 2/3 hours of DT) was the period where Min/Gal was the most outnumbered, have a look at my killboard, one evening I lost 15 ships in two hours. So you have to understand when a lot of people read your anecdotal viewpoint, blown out to encompass a two week OP, they simply sit there in stunned silence. I will agree however, Amarr suffered horribly from the 'outnumbered so dock' schtick and in my opinion was the number one reason they lost. Again, http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/ allows a more holistic picture (including a timeline.)
I took a few days off from work for that. What happened was no surprise. It the same that happens every time the fighting is confined to a single system. When you can't match the numbers you dock/pos up. Gallente/minmatar did that just as much and just as surely as amarr/caldari. Amarr/Caldari just didnGÇÖt have the numbers to hold long enough to get that magical net of 3000 vp.
Sure there were times when it was unclear who had the upper hand and fights were had and it was great. Sometimes they went our way sometimes yours. But most of the 2 week time numerical superiority was established by one side or the other. When I was online we often had the numbers. You know what happened then? Minmatar/Gallente stayed docked and we sat in plexes shooting nothing but rats for the extended periods of time to bring the system contestation level up.
Your claim that amarr lost the war because they did not throw free kills at the Gallente/minmatar when we were outnumbered is silly. Gallente and minmatar would stay docked when they had fewer numbers as well. If you want to blame our refusal to give free kills for our loss then minmatar and gallente should have lost as well. Anyone who understands eve or faction war in the least knows that if Amarr really had more firepower for the time necessary to flip the system then it would have become vulnerable. Your not fooling anyone but the new guys.
OK its true that really bad pvpers can still lose even though they have an overwhelming firepower advantage. But that wasn't the case here. The side that established they had the firepower advantage in that system would sit in plexes for extended periods of time. The fights happened when the firepower advantages changed. But gallente/and minmatar never repeatedly gave us free kills any more than Amarr/Caldari gave them to you.
Oh and claiming your fought outnumbered based on some killboard report is ridiculous. FCs don't decide if they are outnumbered based on how many people entered and fought in the system over the last week or even 1 hour before. They look at what they have in fleet right now, (and often even have to open a new fleet to see if the people are even really there!) and then they look at what is in the plex right now. They may have had a huge fleet 1 hour before but that won't mean they will have better chances in a fight in a plex now.
Second Amarr/caldari may have outnumbered minmatar/gallente 150 to 50 for 12 hours. But then if minmatar outnumber amarr 30 to 10 for the next 12 hours all the gains will be lost. What does the battle report show for the day? Amarr/caldari: 160 minmatar/gallente: 80. What is the significance of these numbers? 0
This is basic eveonline pvp so really stop pretending the silly battle reports show anything.
ThatGÇÖs what I mean about gallente kool-aid versus what I saw with my own eyes. I saw with my own eyes lots of gallente in system and even some flying around but they did not actually try to challenge the plex when we had the numbers. We just sat capturing plex after plex unopposed.
You can claim you were fighting outnumbered all you want - but you didn't do that when I was there. I may not have been there the whole time you were, but I was there allot of the time. Fighting larger blobs just feeds the enemy and boosts their morale. The strategy for both sides when they were outnumbered was to sit it out and let the other sides numbers start to drop from boredom/other obligations.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1351
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:
Another example is your fascination with all VP being equal. So what if someone caps 100 plexes? 100 plexes in Kinakka or 100 plexes in Martoh? Does total VP count offer a more illuminating picture on this or don't you care? As others have said, offensive plexing alts (that don't even exist in the most recent iteration) did not take Kinakka, Okkamon, Asakai, Heyd etc. and defensive plexing alts did not keep Sarenemi, Mantenault, Alamel and Raihbaka under control in the backwaters against Calmill PvP entities.
ItGÇÖs odd that you would even try to deny how important rabbit plexing alts are.
My fascination with vp has to do with the actual game mechanics as opposed to some imagined magical goal. If you net 3000 more vp in a system than the enemy controlling party it becomes vulnerable. Until it is vulnerable it cannot be taken. So whether the alts are defensive plexing to keep the net number of vp below 3000 or alts offensive plexing to get the net at or above 3000 they have just as much of an impact as a pvper who does the same.
Your deplexing alts were huge in the efforts to capture all systems. I had some alts offensive plexing in some of your systems. (so as for your claim they donGÇÖt exist well, I will believe my own eyes) and each time I would get the system contested level up and the next day it would drop again. Without plexing alts you guys would not have enough systems to get past tier 2 let alone hit tier 4. The rabbit alts from the caldari and amarr would overwhelm all but a few systems. ItGÇÖs the way the occupancy game is won and it always has been. See posts by ank if you donGÇÖt believe me.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
But of course without seeing the intel about who is doing what where, and how we responded, how could you know? You must admit the arrogance is slightly breathtaking that you think one metric will give you a brilliant understanding of anything.
There is no arrogance in understanding the mechanic that reaching a net of +3000 vp in a system will make it vulnerable. If you donGÇÖt reach that net net of +3000 vp it will remain invulnerable. It doesnGÇÖt matter whether you are kept under the net 3000 because you kept losing pvp fights or because everytime you log off for the day someone elses alt comes in and deplexes it. It remains invulnerable.
There is nothing arrogant in understanding that if you only have 3 systems you will not be able to reach tier 2. These are the actual game mechanics. They are facts not arrogant opinions.
There is no arrogance in seeing with my own eyes how many enemies are on scan in a plex and how many people are in fleet and what they are saying they can bring. This metric will decide whether a competent fc will fight or not. If you claim gallente use some other metric it is amazing that it always seems to fit this metric when I see them in local GÇô unless they are new.
Much of what you gallente spew is magic talk. Despite their talk gallente worked no magic in huola. They generally won about as many fights as would be expected given the relative fire power of each side. Based on the number of alt d-plexing rabbits they have in the warzone taking the entire front is not surprising either.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1351
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:
You decry FW as being null sec lite and in the same post complain that some random out in the backwater is able to farm unless you put in effort to stop him.
I call it GÇ£null sec juniorGÇ¥, not GÇ£null sec lite.GÇ¥ Its junior because the fights involve at best 200 destroyers instead of 2000 battleships and caps.
But its not null sec lite because the actual game play is in no way more casual. Creating alts to defensive plex is not for casual gamers. ItGÇÖs boring and only hard core eve addicts will bother with it for very long before deciding other things should occupy their time. Gallente are hard core and in fact I think many of them should take their hardcore attitudes to null sec where they belong. Leave fw for people who like a game with action and fun pvp. Not grinds with alts and blobs.
If you are sitting in a system outnumbered 10 to 30 your options are no different than if you are in a system outnumbered 300 to 900. If you are against pvpers who can fog a mirror you are still just going to sit it out instead of giving free kills. So Faction war occupancy is shaping up to have all the calories of null sec but lacks the flavor of high stakes, huge battles.
It is a problem that the fighting is becoming focused on one or 2 systems. Everyone get to huola! If you canGÇÖt get a blob big enough then you will just be giving free kills there. If you go a few systems over you will find no fun pvp and can expect to have your plexing work undone by d-plexing alts after you log off.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
If you don't live in a system, or actively patrol it then why shouldn't some dude profit off the area? Why would you prefer to effectively increase force projection in FW by allowing one corp to hold sway over entire regions with for instance timer rollbacks?
The only way they would hold sway over entire regions is if they had pvpers spread out over those regions fighting in plexing. That is how it should be. They shouldnGÇÖt have sway because they have 3xs the number of rabbit alts that will swoop in as soon as the pvpers leave.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
Right now the corp I am in 'controls' about 6-7 systems in our area, our activity level is high enough that bot runners and afk plexers long since stopped sending their ships here, a good 90% of the people in plexes in our area lead to PVP. How is this not what we want? Do I have a right to complain that 12 jumps away some dude is making billions of isk, how do I own that area if we're not there long enough to deter him?
But your militia controls all of the caldari gallente front. ItGÇÖs easy to claim you control those 6-7 systems but itGÇÖs really the larger gallente militia that controls them. If the rest of the militia switched sides to caldari you wouldnGÇÖt control them. Why? Because your fc would look in a plex and see 50 people there and see that you only have 10 in fleet. Regardless of whether your fc would suicide your fleet you would lose those systems one after another. And then when you tried to oplex you would find that alts come in and dplex when you are not there and if you still manage to chase them like a fool and build the contested level, eventually the blob will come back and undue your work.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
You need to stop looking in from the outside, and actually get to a position where you can see how it works in a functioning militia, Gallente get it, we have major home systems spread around the WZ, leaving few areas out of reship distance or control range, but you don't even factor something as basic as where pvpers live in you analysis of how a WZ is controlled or falls. The only thing you consistently prove to people involved in FW is how far removed you really are from the actual game, less spreadsheets and more playing.
I think you need stop believing the gallente are magic talk and start understanding the actual mechanics. You will then have a better understanding of the game. BTW I am not anti gallente. When the gallente lost the war it was not due to some brilliant caldari plan.
Gallente want to claim what they did involves some brilliant strategy. But really those strategies are mundane. Plus they donGÇÖt work unless you keep deplexing in the empty frigates that I see warping off throughout the war zone. Yes I see them with my own eyes and I see how many vp they get on the api dump with my own eyes. You telling me GÇ£never mind those alts they donGÇÖt effect a thingGÇ¥ is not going to work. I am going to believe my own eyes.
Getting as many players as you can in a single system to try to outblob the other side is not a brilliant strategy either. It works under the current mechanics but itGÇÖs not brilliant. It only works when you can get the blob in a single system for long enough to get that net 3000vp. Gallente can do that. ThatGÇÖs fine. But itGÇÖs nothing magic or brilliant. ItGÇÖs null sec junior.
If on the other hand each plex was to be fought over because players knew were the timers were running and tried to assign pilot to different systems rationally (as opposed to always saying GÇ£everyone form up in system ______GÇ¥) then we would see some interesting strategies. Strategies that are different than dull sec blob formation for the win.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1351
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 01:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:Because your fc would look in a plex and see 50 people there and see that you only have 10 in fleet. Regardless of whether your fc would suicide your fleet you would lose those systems one after another.
You do know who you are talking to right? Those guys held the line against one of the games largest alliances for months.
A single corp I was in farmed test, before they failscaded. We had the luxury of basing out of the same low sec station as them. It was mostly easy kills because they never could figure out the most basic low sec mechanics of how to dock and undock (and I didn't really participate much myself).
http://archive.evenews24.com/2012/02/08/test-a-different-kind-of-alliance/
It's surprising they could even find their way to the right low sec region to find a plex.
I scan through both gallente and test postings of the time. The bottom line from what I read was test played the mechanics and did not enter the gallente fantasy world where faction war is all about "home systems." They steamrolled gallente to hit their goal of tier 4 to farm lp and left. Gallente kept saying they didnt' want that system anyway, nor that one, or that one. And then gallente claimed to "win" because they managed to hold a handfull of systems that test never needed to hit tier 4 anyway. \o/
But yeah drink the gallente koolaid and you will get the idea that test entered some home syste with 2000 players and 4 gallente fought them off in atrons. Whatever revision history you want.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1351
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Posted - 2014.08.27 02:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
But yeah drink the gallente koolaid and you will get the idea that test entered some home syste with 2000 players and 4 gallente fought them off in atrons. Whatever revision history you want.
Scoreboard: Gallente 2, Cearain 0.
You think so little of the gallente militia that you pit them all against one character and keep score?
I admit I can not beat the entire gallente militia alone but the way some of them blob I think many would consider it a good fight.
But anyway we were talking about how 4 gallente in atrons fought off 2000 test pilots and how your most recent sweep of warzone had nothing to do with alts rabbit plexing.
You should get back to that since it sounds more impressive than an entire militia beating a single character.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1351
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Posted - 2014.08.27 03:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:
But yeah drink the gallente koolaid and you will get the idea that test entered some home syste with 2000 players and 4 gallente fought them off in atrons. Whatever revision history you want.
Scoreboard: Gallente 2, Cearain 0. I admit I can not beat the entire gallente militia alone but the way some of them blob I think many would consider it a good fight. Don't be so mad. At least you didn't take any days off work to try to stop us this time.
Yeah this gallente campaign was not likely to be much more exciting than huola so I didn't bother taking off work - or even logging in. I think I called that right. But you can still count it as a win against me if it makes you feel better about yourself.
But before we move off of test I have a question for you. Are you upset that test and caldari steamrolled to tier 4 and never needed your "home systems"?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1353
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:54:00 -
[15] - Quote
Test proved that you don't need to take home systems to hit tier 4. You guys keep talking about how important home systems are but the mechanics don't actually say that. Sure it causes some disruption. But really by now people know how to use black frog. It's not that big of a deal.
As far as how many kills you get plexing "back waters" I have my experience you have yours. Your telling me what it is like is not going to change what I see with my own eyes. I will let others make up their own minds based on whether they see lots of pilots warping out of plexes. Why don't we leave it at that?
Yuri Antollare wrote:
Was someone able to send an unfit derptron at some point of the day to deplexe freely in a system that Calmill needed to survive? Almost certainly... and?? Again if there is not enough Calmill resistance to push out an unfit atron..
I don't think its that no one could fly an unfit derptron to rabbit plex. Its more that rabbit plexing is not very fun. Since you need to do that to win occupancy war people don't really care about winning it. That is why this campaign had fairly pathetic numbers compared to the number of subscribers in eve and even compared to the number of people in fw. Its not the players it's the game.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
Your Huola analysis is consistently bewildering, .. The vast majority of galmill plex doctrines are designed around the singular purpose of fighting outnumbered and being able to treat the campaign as a game of inches when we have to
You feel bewildered because I am telling you something inconsistent with the gallente magic talk. Start counting the numbers in your fleet and the number of enemies that show up on dscan in a plex before the fight. You will see you do not fight outnumbered any more than they do.
As far as what you saw you said you were on a few hours before or after downtime. Thats about 6am central time for the us an about noon in Europe. Think about what I said about the numbers in battle reports and understand how your time period might not be a very good indicator.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
. Derptrons are designed to cost so little they can be used in an attrition format, the long range kestrels are designed to give 5-6 people a chance in novices against 20-30 man gangs, breacher coraxes are again, designed to pack the most punch for tank/isk and swing the casualty rates. These are fits that have been used as intended since the closing days of Evoke, let alone TEST.
I love the gallente derptron doctrine everyone in fleet would salivate when we would see them on d-scan. But gallente would only send a few in and then stop feeding them to us in huola. Whether something like this would work against test or other nullbears I imagine it would. But they don't claim to be pvpers at all.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
For me to believe what you seem to think happened in Huola, would require me to assume that Galmill all of a sudden stopped fighting in the manner that we always do and that our logistics demand. When you are also the guy selling derptrons, periodically logging into UStz, and being heavily involved in AU/early EU, your opinion becomes even harder to believe because I was actually there.
Ok so you think the entire time that huola was plexed up to say 70% contested gallelnte were throwing derptrons the entire time? Sorry to say this isn't true, I wish it were if you did we probably would have kept the fleet numbers up. But gallente sat docked with the minmatar and the amarr ran plexes unopposed. Again I will believe my own eyes.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1354
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:29:00 -
[16] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:
Quips like "if they have 30 and u have 10 no one warps in" reveal your lack of understanding of the deeper strategies at play. GǪOne has to only look at the fits and doctrines Amarr use (in comparison to us) to realize they were never structured to fight that way, you kill two derptrons and we kill your 9mill inquisitor, ad infinitum. Your inability to fight for a minute here or there or inflict losses during 'bad' times for you stood in stark contrast to our ability to slow you and still inflict losses even when we had four people in fleet.
Sure both sides were trying to get in plexes early and split the other side up a bit when they were outnumbered. But the vast majority of the time when one side was outnumbered 3 to 1 they sat out.
You are wrong to think isk was a big issue in this campaign. A nine million isk inquisitor was not a big deal. Generally speaking when you have fewer pilots you try to get a bit more out each with better fittings. Sure itGÇÖs dumb to go with faction fittings unless you are extremely space rich but t2 fittings are usually preferred. On the other hand if you outnumber your opponent sufficiently you might as well fly cheap tech 1 fits. So you got it backwards.
Isk was not the issue. I offered the ceos isk and fittings if they wanted it and never had one take me up on it. The problem was we could not keep the numbers in fleets that we needed for the extended time we needed to bring huola vulnerable.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
As to the TEST goals, its a sandbox so we can't deny them a victory if they wish to define it as reaching T4, tbh though under the system as was then, that wouldn't be much of a goal as it would be fairly inevitable given their size. GǪ. You may say we moved the goalposts...
Tier 4 is basically the goal in the mechanics. Tier 5 is hardly cost effective in the current system.
Ok I will be fair. I it wasnGÇÖt really changing the goalposts. Gallente have been talking about holding home systems before test. But the goalpost is a made up one. And all the talk about how holding these GÇ£key systemsGÇ¥ will prevent the other side from this or that were basically proven false. Test proved you donGÇÖt need to take home systems to hit tier 4. And tier 4 is basically the best economic situation you can get under the current mechanics.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
But the assertion that TEST didnt want to take Eha or continue crushing galmill home systems from there is patently ludicrous to anyone with passing familiarity of the conflict. Not only did they say as much in their first leaked meetings, but I was there for month after month of the sperging in local about exactly what their intentions were.
Ok I admit I just read the forums and some of the reddit threads. On reddit you would have someone say hey lets take _____ home system! And the response would be GÇ£why fight at a disadvantage in their home system? Of course gallente want us to go where they are all set up but why go to the terrain they want? I have to say that makes allot of sense.
On the forums you would have some test member saying how they took all these systems and they are at this or that tier. Then some gallente yeah but you didnGÇÖt take system X so we win! And honestly I donGÇÖt think most people from test thought you were serious. Because when you look at something describing the actual mechanics of faction war you donGÇÖt see anything about victory conditions based on holding certain systems. I know the guy was serious but there was really no reason to expect someone who wasnGÇÖt used to the militia rp lore to take that seriously.
Now it seems clear that test did make some sort of half assed effort at eha GÇô I think because they had agents there. And maybe you did fight outnumbered but the fights I saw from that campaign on you tube showed gallente with the numerical advantage. In other words Test did not bring 2000 pilots in system and gallente held them off. But I admit I donGÇÖt really know. Maybe you did fight outnumbered against test. If I were to pick a group to fight outnumbered against Test would be near the top.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
Perhaps others such as your esteemed Amarr could have also held them off, but since we've beat both you and them, forgive us for not really caring either way.
Well like I said before it wasnGÇÖt really the amarr militia but one amarr corp of 31 players that farmed kills from test when they happened to base out of the same low sec system.
IGÇÖm not sure what you mean when you say you GÇ£beat the amarr.GÇ¥ But yeah you probably could beat the amarr at this game of rabbit plexing. Amarr has fairly consistently been the smallest and most pvp focused militia. We donGÇÖt have an interest in the whole rabbit plexing game. But why donGÇÖt you come and see? I am sure many would like the pvp to be conveniently delivered close to home even if it is mostly blobby.
Yuri Antollare wrote:
P.S The kool-aid references would work better if minnies/gals lost Huola, if the georgetown residents had actually ascended to heaven then we would have been the idiots. ..
The issue is not whether you held huola. Sure that is reality. The kool-aid is when you start claiming you won all the battles when you were clearly outnumbered and kept fighting when you were outnumbered. You didnGÇÖt. When you were outnumbered you mostly sat in stations and Amarr plexed up the system unopposed.
To use your analogy we are not idiots for not drinking the kool-aid. Some koolaid drinkers might in fact be there. They are likely there despite drinking the koolaid as opposed to being there because they drank it.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 10:19:00 -
[17] - Quote
Veskrashen
I think we agree on quite a bit actually.
We both agree simple math shows that you don't need home systems to take tier 4.
We both might agree that tier 5 is really not an economically sound goal.
Those are the goals set up by ccp. The rest like holding a home system are personal goals that anyone can strive for but there is no real mechanic incentive.
I do agree that holding on to your home bases allows gallente to have more power projection. And because you have a larger war zone that might have more importance. But even the caldari gallente war zone has about 20 systems that border the faction war zone. Not all have stations so you may have to go another jump from there. And some are high sec which might be a problem for some pilots below -5 (although I never really had a problem going one jump into low sec when my sec status was that low) And yes some are in enemy high sec space but again there is generally no problem bringing plexing ships one or 2 jumps in.
So from the perspective of pure occupancy gaining there are multiple places that anyone can base and have better access to these multiple border systems than your home systems would provide. Then its just a matter of grinding plex after plex after plex, for those with the will to do that. From there putting plexing ships in a few stations as you work in is not a big deal. Again if you are interested in plexing.
The problem is who wants to do that? It's extremely boring. Especially if you gain occupancy in the most efficient manner possible. That is why so many in faction war don't even bother with it. It's not that there is some big secret on how to do it.
Veskrashen wrote:
You're playing a different game, Cerain. You know nothing about the world our militia inhabits. Trying to tell us we're wrong while demonstrating a shocking lack of understanding of the realities of our faction and our warzone is why we continue to marginalize your arguments.
I understand the game. The fact that 5 veteran players and a pack of 50 new players following them disagree and try to marginalize the points I raise is not a big deal.
Huge numbers of people are finding that faction war occupancy is not worth playing. Its for the same reasons. They eventually realize that the best way to gain occupancy is to get multiple alt accounts and start rabbit plexing.
XG tries to deny it and is one of the most outspoken in trying to marginalize the points I make. Yet he admits his alt deplexed 100 plexes in 2 weeks. The proof is in what you do, not in what you say.
Crosi admits plexing alts are important and has learned to embrace them.
Both of those players now say rollbacks are "no longer needed." Gallente used to have a stong emphasis on pvp and it was a gallente pilot who gave the most elegant proposal for timer rollbacks. But in the meantime gallente started getting lots and lots of alts to defensive plex. I saw this in the war zone. Caldari would oplex to farm isk. Gallente would have alts to dplex mainly for occupancy.
Well ccp boosted defensive alt plexing and that happened to help the gallente defensive plexing alt army and stunted the caldari farmers. It wasn't an intentional boost to gallente by ccp - so no I'm not tinfoil hatting, and to be clear, I don't think ccp ever intentionally tried to help a particular miltia. But this change happened to be good for the gallente defensive alt army and bad for the caldari alt army.
So now since it is defensive alts that are favored all of a sudden timer rollbacks are "not needed." As if defensive alts in plexes are any more pvp oriented.
There are 300,000 subscribers to eve. Tens of thousands of those players have tried faction war and see that occupancy mechanics need to be fixed so don't waste their time. Possibly you and the few dozen people who think its great are the ones at the margin. Even the other 20,000 players currently in faction war understand that the occupancy war with these mechanics is not something to care about.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 12:53:00 -
[18] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:I understand the game. Then how do you explain almost everything you have ever posted? Non of your impressions of FW are even close to the game i play. Your lack of interest in how people who actually play the game see it, is as always, astonishing.
Were you astonished when XG admitted his alt captured 100 plexes in 2 weeks?
I wasn't surprised at all.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 13:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:I understand the game. Then how do you explain almost everything you have ever posted? Non of your impressions of FW are even close to the game i play. Your lack of interest in how people who actually play the game see it, is as always, astonishing. Were you astonished when XG admitted his alt captured 100 plexes in 2 weeks? I wasn't surprised at all. You might be astonished how many fights xg's alts generated him.
Oh yeah here we go with the spin. Really all these d-plexing alts don't really effect occupancy, they are actually there to get fights. Right right. There are much better ways to use an alt to get fights than sitting him in a plex orbitting a button 20 hours a week. We both know that.
Oh and by the way XG himself isn't even showing as getting 780 vp for the week.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 13:37:00 -
[20] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:Cear - the gals won - it is true that CCP made them OP and did even actiivly help them - but the other side is the gal mil did better than any other milita.
This is a fact.
As I said before, I do not blame my fellow players in EVE - and I still love the game - the problem is simply bad game design.
I have great respect for them gals - they show commitment and fight. What more can you wish of an opposing milita?
You are measured by you foes, after all.
Huola campaign is over - we set it up to burn stuff and had good fun doing so.
The future is what matters.
Rahelis
If you want to be good at the occupancy war you will do what XG and Cynthia nezmor and fhp did. You will get alts and start them orbiting buttons. Gallente are better than that than other militias that is true. They are might also be the best at blobbing a single system.
As for what follows I am not sure but its more of a hunch based on what I saw anecdotally and what I read:
I don't think gallente alts are farmers. If they were farmers they would not be deplexing they would be oplexing in amarr space. I don't know but suspect much of the gallente deplexing alt phenemona started with inferno. They did it so they could simply dock in fw space due to station lockouts.
I think the caldari tended to be more farmers. In it primarily for the isk than the gallente. This change happened to help gallente since their alts were doing defensive plexing anyway since they were not in it for the isk. It hit caldari a bit harder because their alts were farmers.
The change also helped gallente because unlike caldari when offensive plexing got harder they could switch to missions. Running missions only effects the warzone for your side negatively unless you use all that lp to help your side. But ideally players would run missions for the other side to water down the lp the enemy plexers get and use that for their side.
But anyway if you want to win occupancy by all means get out there and plex. Don't believe the people who say vp doesn't matter. Gallente got more vp than the caldari that is why the caldari systems went vulnerable. Until you get 3000 more vp in an enemy system the system is *invulnerable* and can not be flipped. Get as much vp as you can. I think you will find its just as easy to use an alt as your main and multiple alts are better. You might find you don't even want your main to be in space when you are running the maximum number of plexing alts you can handle/afford. If someone comes just jump over a few systems and run a plex there. Then come back to your plex after you finish that one or get chased out again. You will drive the contested most effieicently that way.
If that is your future good luck. It's not my future.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 13:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo
I see you are uncomfortable talking about the fact that XG admitted his alt gained 100 plexes in 2 weeks and so your trying to switch the topic to killboards. I'm not surprised.
We are talking about occupancy not kills. Kills at best indirectly effects occupancy vp always directly effects it.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:You might be astonished how many fights xg's alts generated him. Actually, none - but because it wasn't needed. The Caldari weren't really pushing the backwater systems hard enough. If the counter attack would have been sustained then we would have used alts as "Canaries (in a coal mine)" in that if a WT fleet came by we would then get a fleet up to go meet them. We did this one night and it worked out really well. BTW, this counter plexing technique was learned from PERVS a long time ago. But, again, it wasn't needed. Caldari were finally defeated in Asakai and the rest turned out to be the cleanup effort that all winning sides need to do to finish off their victory. (Of course this is 20/20 hindsight now. At the time we still expected heavier resistance in Heydieles, and perhaps an Amarrian intervention in Ladistier. But.... nothing....)
Your honesty is appreciated. And I have used plexing alts to help get fights but I have found that to the extent I wanted to really use them to find fights they actually finished very few plexes.
Thanatos Marathon wrote:Seems the way we play generates a lot more PVP than whatever you are doing, and yes, I have plexing alts.
I am not doing anything to get pvp now. So yeah your likely doing more. My favorite pvp is/was in and around plexes. When I was after pvp I would go to busy systems open a plex and see if anyone would come. If not I would leave. Rarely would I bother finishing the plex. If I saw plexes open I would dscan to see if someone was running them and warp in on them - usually in a t1 frig but some other stuff as well. They would usually bail and I would rarely want to stay to finish the plex. (if the system was busy enough and the timer had been run down I might stick it out a bit) If they fought and I won I would rarely stay to finish the plex. From a pvp perspective my time was always better spent moving on to the next system instead of sitting there orbitting the button hoping someone will notice me. But of course 99% of the enemies who would fight me, never even knew I was there so why sit there? Sure someone might roll in but I found I got more fights by leaving the plex than staying.
My point: there is a trade off of how much pvp you get versus how much occupancy you gain. I think reducing that trade off as much as possible would be good.
I am not at all surprised you or other Galllente have plexing alts. I have seen them around the warzone and since the gallente alts are often dplexing relatively low contested systems I know they aren't farmers from people unconnected with faction war. I think I am different from most people because I care more about the effect alt plexers have on occupancy than the isk they get or don't get. If gallente didn't have alt plexers they would be lucky to be at tier 2.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:37:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dread Delgarth wrote:All this moaning about defensive plex alts is a bit lame IMO.
It's like complaining PL are only successful because they have so many cyno alts.
There is no accounting for taste.
If you think running defensive plexing alts is fun then you won't mind the current mechanics that make them so important to fw occupancy. I don't like it, and I think very few people do.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
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Posted - 2014.08.28 19:38:00 -
[24] - Quote
Andre Vauban wrote:Cearain wrote:X Gallentius wrote:Crosi Wesdo wrote:You might be astonished how many fights xg's alts generated him. Actually, none - but because it wasn't needed. The Caldari weren't really pushing the backwater systems hard enough. If the counter attack would have been sustained then we would have used alts as "Canaries (in a coal mine)" in that if a WT fleet came by we would then get a fleet up to go meet them. We did this one night and it worked out really well. BTW, this counter plexing technique was learned from PERVS a long time ago. But, again, it wasn't needed. Caldari were finally defeated in Asakai and the rest turned out to be the cleanup effort that all winning sides need to do to finish off their victory. (Of course this is 20/20 hindsight now. At the time we still expected heavier resistance in Heydieles, and perhaps an Amarrian intervention in Ladistier. But.... nothing....) Your honesty is appreciated. And I have used plexing alts to help get fights but I have found that to the extent I wanted to really use them to find fights they actually finished very few plexes. Thanatos Marathon wrote:Seems the way we play generates a lot more PVP than whatever you are doing, and yes, I have plexing alts. I am not doing anything to get pvp now. So yeah your likely doing more. My favorite pvp is/was in and around plexes. When I was after pvp I would go to busy systems open a plex and see if anyone would come. If not I would leave. Rarely would I bother finishing the plex. If I saw plexes open I would dscan to see if someone was running them and warp in on them - usually in a t1 frig but some other stuff as well. They would usually bail and I would rarely want to stay to finish the plex. (if the system was busy enough and the timer had been run down I might stick it out a bit) If they fought and I won I would rarely stay to finish the plex. From a pvp perspective my time was always better spent moving on to the next system instead of sitting there orbitting the button hoping someone will notice me. But of course 99% of the enemies who would fight me, never even knew I was there so why sit there? Sure someone might roll in but I found I got more fights by leaving the plex than staying. My point: there is a trade off of how much pvp you get versus how much occupancy you gain. I think reducing that trade off as much as possible would be good. I am not at all surprised you or other Galllente have plexing alts. I have seen them around the warzone and since the gallente alts are often dplexing relatively low contested systems I know they aren't farmers from people unconnected with faction war. I think I am different from most people because I care more about the effect alt plexers have on occupancy than the isk they get or don't get. If gallente didn't have alt plexers they would be lucky to be at tier 2. Will it make you feel better to know that Andre and Andrea are my plexing alts and they have 100M and 40M skill points respectively? Do you still consider them plexing alts?
Fair point.
Thats why I use the term "rabbit plexer." Because rabbit plexers are set up to run from pvp combat. They might be mains they might be alts. They might be in it for isk and thus a farmer or they might be in it just for occupancy and therefore not really a farmer. I guess I really don't care so much, if they are alts.
I just don't think players who always run away from fights should be as effective as they currently are in the occupancy war. Most rabbit plexers are indeed alts. But sure if the alts stay and fight thats fine with me.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 13:55:00 -
[25] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote: Of course we keep deplexing alts on hand - that way we ensure our home systems and those being farmed in the backwaters don't get out of control.
I don't disagree with much, if any, of your post. For me what you say here is the issue. You fight alt plexing with alt plexing. As you said "of course" you do.
Thats why the occupancy war is not fun. The occupancy war should be won by pvp not having alts participate in a rabbit plexing race. Timer rollbacks push us toward an end to that. Other suggests work to end the rabbit plexing race you describe. You may think its "fine" now. But eventually most people who have been at this game long enough get tired of it. Few people get tired of the pvp.
And any gallente who want to say alts don't matter etc etc. Well I will look at what they do, not what they say. If they don't really matter then stop using them, and see what happens.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 22:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:What you are complaining about is players, not game mechanics.
If people want to plex in pve fits and run away from fights there is nothing you or i can do to stop them - apart from forcing them to stay out of the plexes by having a presence there or getting better at killing them..
I don't blame the players for playing this game however they like. It is a sandbox.
But CCP can and does change the mechanics to encourage certain behavior an discourage other behavior. For example, they wanted offensive plexers to have weapon systems so they required the rats to be killed. You could still enter the offensive plex without the ability to do damage but you won't accomplish much.
Here I want them to encourage the behavior of staying and fighting for a plex instead of just running and hiding in a new system to plex.
With timer rollbacks yes, of course, people can still use pve fits and warp out. But they will then lose time on the plex. Thus that behavior will have a disadvantage relative to the person who stays and fights. I'm not trying to completely prevent behavior like a bubble that prevents warping. I am trying instead to start weighing the occupancy war more in favor of the pvpers. This means that corps who fight for occupancy will value a good pvper more than a person who just has multiple accounts and rabbit plexes.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
CCP could kill FW and remove LP from plexing, then station lockouts would be the only incentive to fight occupancy. No more farmers. All systems would be completely ignored apart from a handful of well placed station systems..
You know I think I am about the only person who doesn't really care that much about how much isk/p is in fw. I used to care more but not really anymore. I have done plexing with lp, and without, and on the whole I think adding some lp was an improvement. But really how much lp for this or that and at what tier really doesn't concern me. I just want the game the occupancy war to be fun. And for me that means to make it a pvp haven. If we can gain isk in the meantime great if not then I would buy plex or do something else to support my pvp. As someone who has been playing this game for years I have more isk than worthy things to spend it on.
I am much more interested in how fun the game is to play than how much isk I can make. If I am having a blast playing the game then I am glad to spend an extra 20 bucks every now and then to buy a plex and get more ships.
BTW I dont think gallente won due to "farmers." I know the plexers were often in low contested systems that really don't pay much.
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
But i would rather take simple steps to curtail farmers, like dplexing alts, than drastic measures which make FW a less viable place to play for both new and old players. For me, any mechanic that puts ships in space has its fundamentals in order.
You obviously have some drastic tunnel vision that prevents you from seeing a bigger picture, i know pointing this out will not help. I dont even know if you care about the bigger picture, or if you have just become so focused on debating minutia for its own sake.
Sorry for disturbing you, ill let you get back to fixating on non/minor problems.
No problem your entitled to your opinion and I have thick skin.
Yep I want more than ships in space. I want more fighting and less warping around.
I think you miss the big picture, when you wring your hands over how much isk this or that activity brings. Isk can only be used in game. If there is nothing fun to do in the game than what is the point? My focus is on making fw more fun and less about creating alts to rabbit plex. For me the funnest thing in eve is the pvp in and around plexes. So mechanics that encourage that are what I push for.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
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Posted - 2014.08.30 03:07:00 -
[27] - Quote
Yuri Antollare wrote:Cearain wrote:Veskrashen
We both agree simple math shows that you don't need home systems to take tier 4.
I'm being trolled right? Are you jumping your bash fleet in from hi-sec/non-fw lowsec and travelling 10 jumps to flip a system? Are you actually suggesting that Calmill position themselves around the edges of the map in isolated numbers and push in against our internal lines of defence? Do you know how far it is from Yvangier to Karjataimon? From Mara to Mantenault? Cearain, this is getting stupid and again your ignorance of both the important subtleties in FW and general strategic good sense is showing.
Answers in order:
No, No, Caldari have to do that you kicked them out of all the other systems, Do you want that in jumps or light years?
I am not saying that people should never put ships in fw space. I thought I made that clear. You can have multiple bases with plexing ships.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1355
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Posted - 2014.08.30 03:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
Crosi Wesdo wrote:Cearain wrote:Nothting of substance No, you missed the point, i and most of the people i fly with are playing hard and having fun (with a few notable exceptions). We are doing this with the same mechanics as everyone else. I think its time you look within.
Of course, you and the 50-200 or so others who care about the occupancy war to varying degrees are having fun. Otherwise you wouldn't be doing it right? Sasawong and his alt Sheltering Sky must have had fun orbiting buttons because they did that more than any player corp in the game. Otherwise why would he have done so much of it? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that. People like different things.
I'm just saying that for being a substantial part of a mmo 50-200 players who care is pretty bad. Don't you agree? Eve has over 500,000 subscribers and over 20,000 characters in faction war. And the entire warzone was won with very little resistance. I mean anyone who cared could see it coming. Yet very few from amarr or caldari even cared enough to get some guys together and try to start plexing some other systems down to at least keep you jumping around. The current rabbit plexing system is just too boring to care about. And how big were the gallente fleets on average? From the reports I am reading they sound extremely underwhelming for a game that often has battles involving 2000.
I am with the vast majority. You and those who think the occupancy game is worth playing are the extreme fringe.
The Catholic Church took a survey and asked their priests if they thought the celibacy restriction was too harsh. And of course the priests said it wasn't. Well of course they said it wasn't, if they thought it was too harsh they probably would not be priests. You have to look outside your little group at the bigger picture with this game. The bigger picture shows the occupancy war is not something people care about. CCP should really ask why people have such a low interest in this. With a few tweaks It could be a great reason to stay subbed.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Goose Swarm Coalition
1356
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Posted - 2014.08.30 16:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Cearain wrote:Yet very few from amarr or caldari even cared enough to get some guys together and try to start plexing some other systems down to at least keep you jumping around. You mistake "care" for "didn't think they could win". For example, the Caldari cared enough to push fights to 1-2k kills/day in several systems before they finally gave up (after they convinced themselves that they couldn't win). If you can name another mechanic in this game that have lead to more fights in this game than the FW mechanic, then please do so. Until then, don't you think your time is better spent whining about all the other mechanics in this game that don't generate anywhere near the number of fights that the FW mechanic does?
They couldn't put up a fight anywhere because not enough pilots cared. That is my point. Can you at least admit that in a game that is known to get fleet fights of 2000, that they should have at least been able to get 60 pilots together to put up some sort of organized resistance? That shows how little anyone cares.
No one in caldari was organized to really fight for occupancy right? Very few in caldari had ships ready to fight for occuancy right? You know if they really cared about occupancy that wouldn't be the case.
You keep talking about "mechanics in this game" but there are 2 problems with that:
1) how do you even define faction war as a single mechanic. There are faction war players who just roam and almost never bother with plexes. There are faction war players who just run missions. The question is how many really care about winning the occupancy war. Yes lots of people come and run missions or put an alt in to plex for lp. Others come to have fights on gates or wherever. But very few care about occupancy itself. Saying "faction war mechanic" as if it were a single mechanic is misleading. Is sov null sec a single mechanic? I has produced more kills than fw. Are gates a game mechanic? they produced more pvp than fw.
2) Your asking what produces more pvp "in this game" but "this game" is starved for pvp. Pvpers are leaving faction war and this game generally. Finding pvp in this game is a real problem. I mean are we supposed to be jumping for joy that we get more than "dull sec"? Really you set your expectations so low anything meets them. If ccp wants to really expand this game as opposed to letting it languish they need to look expand what is offered in the game and not set their limits on what the game currently offers.
X Gallentius wrote:Samwise Everquest wrote:Over the past months many caldari casuals re-enlisted as gal because there was no incentive to stay t1 and out numbered. It didn't take long for people to realize there was no reason to fight against a zerg of rabbit plexers so might as well reap the rewards of t4 and the uncontested life. So in a way, CalMil beat Calmil. We welcome the fact that many separatists have decided to rejoin the Federation. Amnesty will given to all that join the Federation and help our cause.
Just another example of players not caring about winning the occupancy war. Its time to stop blaming the players and understand that there is a reason so few care.
The game would be great if the occupancy war was so fun and challenging that players got isk so that they could participate in it. But as long as the occupancy war is about as fun as most other pve activities players will continue to mostly just do it for the isk. If CCP wants to keep long time players they need more activities that players find engaging enough to spend their isk on, not just more ways to make isk.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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