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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 18:49:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Gierling on 25/07/2006 18:49:07
There is now absolutely no reason to ever use a Megathron or a Tempest ever again.
All of the Hyperion's weaknesses are easily mitigated via a standard fleet config (and its extra midslot), the Maelstrom does as much damage out of the box on its alpha as a Tempest does with Battleship 5 AND can tank like a mofo to boot. Those launchers almost never ever come into play with a tempest, it doesnt have the grid to fit a rack of its best weapons AND launchers.
The rok just has entirely too many damn turrets for such a powerful bonus.
The Abbadon is just bout right.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 20:59:00 -
[2]
The Hyperion will do everything the Mega does but better.
And the Rokh will do everything the Hyperion does but better.
And the Maelstrom will do everything the Tempest does but better.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 22:14:00 -
[3]
Rokh + Nuetrons + webbing drones + orbit at 25k = pwn
The real issue is that yes it does obselete the mega, if it has any dronebay at all it can fit a few drones and a webber and can easily use both. I have a hard time believing that a Gallente Battleship would have a less then 75m3 drone bay (probably 100m3) because you won't have the Gallente ship being outdroned by the raven. At that point we are looking at one or two less ogre II's (which is generous, most blaster spec pilots don't train heavy drones up to five for a long time) but one more turret.
The additional turret does a lot more for you at that range then the one or two drones.
At long range, the Mega's tracking bonus is less of an advantage and it gets outclassed badly by that one additional turret (as it cant even bring its dronebay to bear until you fix sentries).
There are way s to fix this, you could go the other route and give the Hyperion a falloff bonus. Which would make the Mega the damage king but the Hyperion just so much easier to use. Lending there to be two different avenues for gallente pilots.
Or you could get a little fun and give it the other bonus, the 7.5% tracking AND the MWD bonus with a 200 m3 drone bay.
Irregardless the real issue is just that the additional turret plus the overlapping strong bonus really makes the Mega harder to justify.
A falloff bonus however creates a different beast entirely, with no tracking problem, thats still usefull at all ranges, however suitably different from the MEga and most importantly not overshadowed by the blaster Rokh.
As far as the maelstrom, 7 turrets and its balanced, 8 and there is no reason to ever fly a tempest ever again. Tempest as the Alpha strike king, Maelstrom as the DPS/tanker.
The Rokh is just a joke, with 8 turrets and an optimal bonus its got so many slots free compared to all of its contemporaries that you really can't say it has a significant weakness in damage or tracking or whatever. 6 turrets and its balanced as a sniper, 7 at most.... do remember that this ship will have the slots to fit a tank WITH a fleet setup.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 22:43:00 -
[4]
Yeah, I may disagree but Tux is real good about listening to arguments so it serves no purpose to insult him.
Anyhow back to the Rokh. Assuming a 8-7-5 (Same as raven + 1 mid) layout.
We max out the guns range with one tracking comp II more or less.
So we end up with a config of 18 425 II's, 1 tracking comp II, 4 Mag Stab II's as a baseline with one lowslot and six midslots free.
One route to go would be with a 4 slot shield tank (amp, 2 tech II invuls, xl booster) two damps (why the heck not) and a pdu in the low.
Or we can just toss 6 damps in and be an uber fleet denial platform.
Heck there is just so much you can do with the extra slots.
And you know what I'm not arguing this because I'm jealous, I'm arguing because I really enjoy the game and I want there to be a reason to use everything.
Trust me as planned the Hyperion would be an absolute dream (heck it would save me so much time npcing), and as planned the Rokh would help my alliance more then any other (lots of folk can only fly Caldari, imagine all those raven pilots tossed into a rokh with even tech I 425's)
One already gets turned away if they show up in a fleet in a Domi (do you know how hard it is to get kicked out of an ASCN fleet, that's saying something) I just don't relish the day where the same will happen in a Mega (and as is in a fleet fight the Hyperion just completely outclasses the Mega... its not even a matter of choice.)
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.25 22:50:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Gierling on 25/07/2006 22:54:11
I think they all are gonna be the same amount of slots as tier 2 +1.
So I see the Rokh getting an extra mid rather then an extra low and the same for the Hyperion.
Also, for those of you that remember someone predicted "Hyperion" for the Gallente BS looooong before.
Real nice design on his ship too.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 01:01:00 -
[6]
I still don't see how the Hyperion doesn't Obselete the mega.
Same role, more damage, a free slot to simulate the Mega's bonus with.
I think falloff is your best bet to fix it, or you could remove one turret slot... or add one to the Mega.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 01:21:00 -
[7]
Wrong Answer.
The Mega doesn't get a hybrid range bonus either, and the Hyperion looks to be getting an extra mid over the mega.
I don't care how bad the targetting range is, It still will be able to hit to make it up with modules and once it does just purely outdamage the Mega.
Lets assume it comes with the worst base targeting range of any BS by 5 KM, so we are looking at a ship with a 55km base targeting range. Skills gets you up to 70k, first sensor booster gets you up to 109, second gets you up to 174. Third one (which you get for free via the extra slot) puts you over the top.
Either way, its a Mega with an extra gun and the same important bonus and an extra slot. So you either toss a tracking comp, or a sensor booster in that slot and you have a ship that is identical to a Mega except it does about 15% better damage across the board.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 01:33:00 -
[8]
45km lock range would give you 230 with 3 sensor booster II's.
And Like I said it can fit the standard mega fleet setup (2 SBII's) plus it gets that free midslot so 3 sbII's is acedemic.
It is clearly a better long range Battleship then the Mega, and with a tracking comp in that slot it is clearly a better short range Battleship then the mega.
The 8 turrets and a damage bonus is what makes the Mega Redundant, get rid of the Damage bonus and make it a falloff bonus and you have a ship that instead of doing more damage then the mega, does slightly less, but can be used much more easily and is a much different blaster boat. Falloff also benefits at long range to make up for the slightly less damage, so you end up with a ship that is different while being in racial philosophy.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 03:26:00 -
[9]
BTW A sub 40 locking range is highly unlikely, the exequeror has a 48k locking range and I really highly doubt that the newest combat vessel would have worse sensors then one of the oldest utility vessels.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 16:40:00 -
[10]
Digi, I don't think a blaster only bonus is possible, nor likely.
Just give it a falloff bonus and the problem is solved... or Falloff and change the MWD to tracking for a truly beastly combo.
The Mega is your damage champ, the Hyperion isn't far behind as the easy to use blaster ship that can orbit at 18k all day long (And still be usefull in a fleet fight).
8 turrets to the mega's 8.75 isn't that bad, (and not nearly as bad as having the Mega have 8.75 to the Hype's 10), and the extra distance only serves to help the Hyperion in both long and short range fighting.
I'm concerned about the Rokh as a blaster ship as well, but with less turrets and the Hyperion having a falloff bonus that concern would evaporate.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 19:05:00 -
[11]
Digi, unfortunately such a bonus (blaster only) has no precedent and would cause so many problems from a hueristic standpoint (They would either need to go back and redo all caldari and Gallente ships or deal with massive whinging).
Can you please make an assessment on the alternate bonus set I postulated.
10% falloff and 7.5% tracking on the Hype. It would retain the useability and distinctiveness of both the mega and the Hype without really obseleting either. I can provide you with DPS and tracking graphs when I get home from work if you request but I would very much like you to consider the implications of these (more reasonable) bonuses.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 19:38:00 -
[12]
Ahh Digi, you state that you considered the Megas damage bonus cancelled out by use of the larger (neutrons) on the Hyperion.
However Long Range is significantly different from short, an all 425 fitting is perfectly viable on the Mega, therefore it would retain a damage advantage versus the Hyperion's slight range advantage.
With that in mind it doesn't outclass the mega and they end up complementing each other without making the other redundant.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 21:31:00 -
[13]
Digi, we hit the impass I wanted us too.
YOU would prefer the extra falloff, I'd prefer the extra damage and spare hi even if it means I have to carry 4 different types of ammo in my hold (not an unusual move).
The ships appeal to slightly different aspects of the Gallente playstyle, Frankly I think its about as close as we can get to a pair that doesn't obselete each other.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 23:04:00 -
[14]
I'm sorry Digi however blaster damage is not a bonus that is "in play".
We need to constrain the discussion to bonuses that are plausible.
In doing so the Tracking/Falloff or MWD Falloff combo's are our best options.
Of course I'm all for just tossing an extra turret on the Mega.
The fact remains howevr that practically every possible bonus given to the Hype will affect Railguns AND blasters... accept that.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.26 23:58:00 -
[15]
Well Digi I do very much respect your analysis even if I disagree with your conclusion.
Insofar as why a blaster specific bonus is a bad idea, it is for a few reasons. Firstly because its a move to seperate a weapon class. While I agree that Gallente and Caldari should have had thier own weapons at launch, its now far far too late to go down that road.
Do you really want them to change ALL of the bonuses on the Gallente ships to say "Blaster" and all of the ones on the Caldari ships to say Rails? Its kinda silly, they use the same weapons and we have to accept that. To divest them at this point only enforces a divide which is imprudent at best for the rest of the ships.
Also, it is quite a valid desire to want to toss rails on the ship and have a bonus that is somewhat applicable. Gallente pilots already have one ship of dubious utility at long range, adding a second really isn't going to do gallente spec'd players any favors.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.27 02:47:00 -
[16]
Its a terribly sloppy way to accomplish that however, and it doesn't really settle the matter with the Mega nor does it help Gallente pilots much to have 2 explicitly short range battleships.
I respect your logic, I just don't agree with it.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.27 04:26:00 -
[17]
Thats the issue, Digi how is the Mega explicitly anything? Why should it be, why should the tier 3 be.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.27 05:06:00 -
[18]
Don't you ever sleep Digi.
When I'm at work your posting, when I get hom your posting, when I go to bed your posting...
Anyhow I'll post a more detailed post tomorrow, but suffice it to say that battleships have a specific role that they need to be able to perform at least passably well. Why some ships are missille ships some are drone ships and some are EW boats are the means to an end, or how you get to that point (performing a battleships role) via racial strategy.
I probably mangled that but I'm beat... I'll post more tomorrow.
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Gierling
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.07.27 13:47:00 -
[19]
If it has 8 turrets and a damange bonus the Hyp will outstrip the Mega at long range as well.
Those claiming its locking range will help that I find specious, as it only needs the lock range of an exequeror or better to stay relevent. I find it doubtful they would have the new BS have a worse lock range then the worst cruiser.
I'm still a fan of the falloff/tracking combo. The issue is that 8 turrets with a generalized damage bonus outstrips the mega no matter what, and a specialized damage bonus is hard to justify.
Maybe we could chop a turret off of it and give it ROF/Tracking... or keep a turret and give it ROF and Repper efficiency. (Which would probably be a bad thing on a hsip that could easily fit 8 large guns and a dual repper setup).
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