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Murukan Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.27 05:07:00 - [31] Originally by: Madcat Adams Edited by: Madcat Adams on 27/07/2006 03:52:24 Originally by: Murukan Translation: I want to npc with my head up my arse so please even though you give me these wonderful tools such as local (which tells me about anyone in the system) or safespots, i want pvpers to be penalized anymore. Please i don't want to have to actually pay attention while i npc so please don't nerf stabs. Then when people bring enough ships to actually hold my lame ass down i'm going to cry and cry and cry some more about how people always have to blob to get kills. Translation: I want to force people to play my game. They should have to pay close attention to watch for me, because I wants them to have to play pvp all the time! Stabs let them try to avoid pvp. Ignorning that they have to sacrafice more more slots because I'm too lazy to fit more scramblers myself anyways. I cry when they get away, so they must cry if actually caught. //end translation This is Eve Online, not Eve PVP online. Some of us just like to go mine or rat, run missions, trade, or bloody well fly in a circle around the station. There is a wonderful engine for that, where you can attack my ship, even if I'm in high security space. The counter is stabs. To escape, I have to fit them, and fit lots because any sensible pvper carrys a solid scrambler setup, or travels with someone that does. In no way should I be required to stare at the chat 24/7 checking info because you want to pvp. Especially mission running and ratting where not watching combat can lose me a ship just as much as a pirate jumping in can. Want CCP to ditch the local chat? Fine with me, it's as much a tool for pvpers as it is for carebears. You should have to hunt every belt to see if anyone is out there, and not have an idea going in if their easy prey or someone who will vaporize you for having the audacity to interfere with their day. Here's a fix if you're going to boohoo about losing ships don't go into any systems lower than .5 You get that big scary message if you try to saying "oh noes there could be pvp ahead" If that is too much to handle don't leave high sec. It's really simply, yes this is Eve Online and guess what there are areas where you're going to get attacked. If you lack the balls to live in those areas then you shouldn't be out there. In rust we trust!!!
Hector Huffelbran	Posted - 2006.07.27 05:10:00 - [32] Originally by: Madcat Adams This is Eve Online, not Eve PVP online. Some of us just like to go mine or rat, run missions, trade, or bloody well fly in a circle around the station. There is a wonderful engine for that, where you can attack my ship, even if I'm in high security space. The counter is stabs. To escape, I have to fit them, and fit lots because any sensible pvper carrys a solid scrambler setup, or travels with someone that does. In no way should I be required to stare at the chat 24/7 checking info because you want to pvp. Especially mission running and ratting where not watching combat can lose me a ship just as much as a pirate jumping in can. qft pity the only people the devs apparently care to listen to are the killboard junkies and 0.0 superstars who absolutely do not want anybody what-so-ever to have the choice or ability to escape them or not play the way they want them to, or to have a half usable ship while doing so.
Gordan Freeman Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.27 06:04:00 - [33] Originally by: Snoy I think if warp cores are changed, warp scramblers will be overpowered. Every argument I hear about warp cores is the same, if you attack, people want you to be committed to the battle. I propose the same for warp scramblers. Why can you warp scramble someone and then warp away as soon as your in trouble? I think they should change warp scramblers so they scramble not only the ship you are attacking, but while they are online, you are also scrambled. This should satisfy everyone who complains about people warping away in a battle. What are you talking about? As soon as someone is scrambled the battle is won so you fit sstabs cause scramblers are win buttons. Passari will never be safe again
Madcat Adams Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated	Posted - 2006.07.27 06:22:00 - [34] Originally by: Murukan Originally by: Madcat Adams Edited by: Madcat Adams on 27/07/2006 03:52:24 Originally by: Murukan Translation: I want to npc with my head up my arse so please even though you give me these wonderful tools such as local (which tells me about anyone in the system) or safespots, i want pvpers to be penalized anymore. Please i don't want to have to actually pay attention while i npc so please don't nerf stabs. Then when people bring enough ships to actually hold my lame ass down i'm going to cry and cry and cry some more about how people always have to blob to get kills. Translation: I want to force people to play my game. They should have to pay close attention to watch for me, because I wants them to have to play pvp all the time! Stabs let them try to avoid pvp. Ignorning that they have to sacrafice more more slots because I'm too lazy to fit more scramblers myself anyways. I cry when they get away, so they must cry if actually caught. //end translation This is Eve Online, not Eve PVP online. Some of us just like to go mine or rat, run missions, trade, or bloody well fly in a circle around the station. There is a wonderful engine for that, where you can attack my ship, even if I'm in high security space. The counter is stabs. To escape, I have to fit them, and fit lots because any sensible pvper carrys a solid scrambler setup, or travels with someone that does. In no way should I be required to stare at the chat 24/7 checking info because you want to pvp. Especially mission running and ratting where not watching combat can lose me a ship just as much as a pirate jumping in can. Want CCP to ditch the local chat? Fine with me, it's as much a tool for pvpers as it is for carebears. You should have to hunt every belt to see if anyone is out there, and not have an idea going in if their easy prey or someone who will vaporize you for having the audacity to interfere with their day. Here's a fix if you're going to boohoo about losing ships don't go into any systems lower than .5 You get that big scary message if you try to saying "oh noes there could be pvp ahead" If that is too much to handle don't leave high sec. It's really simply, yes this is Eve Online and guess what there are areas where you're going to get attacked. If you lack the balls to live in those areas then you shouldn't be out there. Hmm.. try as hard as I can, don't remember the warning going something like "Warning!!! Your are entering gank space, from this point on, pvp will happen, you will die, you will be forced to engage in it, and if you find a way to survive, we shall nerf the life out of it as this is low sec, and God as our witness we intend you to come in here and get your *ss kicked regardless of how YOU think you want to play the game." In no way am I saying turn low sec into high sec. I'm just saying quit whining that low sec isn't a shooting gallery, it was never intended to be that. Nerfing stabs even further is going to create that type of enviroemnt, the only fair way is to nerf scramblers as well. Or better yet, leave scramblers alone, but introduce tech 2 stabs into circulation.
13th	Posted - 2006.07.28 03:35:00 - [35] I think Snoy's idea is wonderful, and not just because he is my CEO. Why should ships doing the scrambling be relatively risk free and able to warp off the moment they are in danger? If you are forcing someone to commit to a fight, you should be placed under the same restrictions. You should have as many points on you as you are placing on others. Sure it might cause tacklers to stab up as well, but that is less versatility on the tackler's loadout as well. And the most feared core ships, the vagabond, has to tackle the ships they want to keep around. They would be scrambling themselves, making it easier for others to finish the tackle.
Bluestealth Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 03:47:00 - [36] Edited by: Bluestealth on 28/07/2006 03:48:14 Hi Snoy :), I remember killing your wolf with a wcs on, luckily I had a warp scrambler on my muninn :) Yes the nerf is nigh, I would like you to tell me how I tackle an armageddon with 3 wcs at 20km? sure if I was in a gang maybe... otherwise I had to sacrifice webbers or other EW things in order to lock you down. YAY!, no not really. A lot of ships have more lowslots then other ships have midslots... so umm... you argument about fitting to scramble someone sucks. Just imagine if an amarr pilot tried to scramble someone.... o yeah **** I only have 1-4 midslots.
Blade Stormbringer	Posted - 2006.07.28 03:58:00 - [37] Originally by: Madcat Adams I'm just saying quit whining that low sec isn't a shooting gallery, it was never intended to be that. Yes it was. Ever hear of Sentry Guns? Yea they weren't always around.
Hub Quantum Dark Synergy Inc. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.07.28 04:37:00 - [38] There is an expression in Chechnya: "Those who fear wolves should not go in the woods." Do not go into low sec if you want to play your game without PVP. Sure, you can still be attacked in high sec, but a little intelligence goes a long way, moreover, you are not subject to interdictor bubbles, which means with a scout you can escape anything. If you do not understand this, Eve really isn't for you.
Madcat Adams Mission Runners Anonymous Incorporated	Posted - 2006.07.28 04:56:00 - [39] Edited by: Madcat Adams on 28/07/2006 04:56:02 Gee, so the solution is anyone that isn't a pvper should be denied access to low sec. And you guys wonder why low sec is so empty of targets for pirates. Fudge up the stabs, and you will see even less targets. With resources moving into low security, the builders are going to be more and more pressed to enter into your "shooting gallery, till they get tired of it and quit. Eventually with the balance left, no one will be here but pvpers, and then who will make all your ships and modules?
Arkanor Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.28 05:44:00 - [40] Originally by: Bluestealth I would like you to tell me how I tackle an armageddon with 3 wcs at 20km? sure if I was in a gang maybe... otherwise I had to sacrifice webbers or other EW things in order to lock you down. YAY! Oh my god, sacrifice!? That's almost like what people who use WCS are doing to their lowslots, oh wait... I like the idea where scramblers jam both you and the target, along with some WCS nerfs (targeting range/speed sound nice) Originally by: Ghosthowl WoW = hardcore paladins smashin dat face. Originally by: HippoKing I just cried, you know that?
Bluestealth Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 05:51:00 - [41] Originally by: Arkanor Originally by: Bluestealth I would like you to tell me how I tackle an armageddon with 3 wcs at 20km? sure if I was in a gang maybe... otherwise I had to sacrifice webbers or other EW things in order to lock you down. YAY! Oh my god, sacrifice!? That's almost like what people who use WCS are doing to their lowslots, oh wait... I like the idea where scramblers jam both you and the target, along with some WCS nerfs (targeting range/speed sound nice) Well if I run into any other kind of ship they would kick my ass, say blasterthron... if I had no webber tempest = done... And to the idea targeting range/speed nerf to both sides.... lets just all carebear and get over this PvP thing... its not like its fun or anything You can fit a decent tank on geddon even with 3 wcs in, maybe not do AWESOME damage but still pretty good... so ummm yeah someone who only wants to stay for the fights they can win... thats a fun thing
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.07.28 06:12:00 - [42] Originally by: Hector Huffelbran pity the only people the devs apparently care to listen to are the killboard junkies and 0.0 superstars who absolutely do not want anybody what-so-ever to have the choice or ability to escape them or not play the way they want them to, or to have a half usable ship while doing so. Yes how dare people ask that in the unsafe, pvp areas, people who use several stabs should get the setbacks equal to having to use alot of your mids for scrams. I could drop my damage mods on my raven, and put stabs in their place, and npc just fine, and it'd be damn hard for someone to hold me down unless packing 4-5+ scram, which i doubt many do, if they do, it gimps their other tackling severely. My Raven's DPS would be the only thing affected by those stabs, and while it'd go down a good bit, it'd hardly ruin my NPCing abilities.
Xantina Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2006.07.28 07:08:00 - [43] Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Hector Huffelbran pity the only people the devs apparently care to listen to are the killboard junkies and 0.0 superstars who absolutely do not want anybody what-so-ever to have the choice or ability to escape them or not play the way they want them to, or to have a half usable ship while doing so. Yes how dare people ask that in the unsafe, pvp areas, people who use several stabs should get the setbacks equal to having to use alot of your mids for scrams. I could drop my damage mods on my raven, and put stabs in their place, and npc just fine, and it'd be damn hard for someone to hold me down unless packing 4-5+ scram, which i doubt many do, if they do, it gimps their other tackling severely. My Raven's DPS would be the only thing affected by those stabs, and while it'd go down a good bit, it'd hardly ruin my NPCing abilities. 1 interdictor would do the job just fine :) I find it most amusing how the anti-WCS crew tries to appear tough after whining & wailing until they finally got their license to win a fight without using tactics
Brisi Sniggerdly	Posted - 2006.07.28 08:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Xantina Originally by: Malthros Zenobia Originally by: Hector Huffelbran pity the only people the devs apparently care to listen to are the killboard junkies and 0.0 superstars who absolutely do not want anybody what-so-ever to have the choice or ability to escape them or not play the way they want them to, or to have a half usable ship while doing so. Yes how dare people ask that in the unsafe, pvp areas, people who use several stabs should get the setbacks equal to having to use alot of your mids for scrams. I could drop my damage mods on my raven, and put stabs in their place, and npc just fine, and it'd be damn hard for someone to hold me down unless packing 4-5+ scram, which i doubt many do, if they do, it gimps their other tackling severely. My Raven's DPS would be the only thing affected by those stabs, and while it'd go down a good bit, it'd hardly ruin my NPCing abilities. 1 interdictor would do the job just fine :) I find it most amusing how the anti-WCS crew tries to appear tough after whining & wailing until they finally got their license to win a fight without using tactics How about you go put up an interdictor bubble in any low sec system near you. I am Brisi, I am as One. Resistance is fertile.
Requiescat Crest Tech	Posted - 2006.07.28 09:34:00 - [45] Edited by: Requiescat on 28/07/2006 09:35:42 WTB: bubbles that i can use in .3, paying 1 bil per im currently fighting a war against stabmonkeys... they like to smack it up in local and sound tough but when we finally fight them (usually 3-4 to 1 in their favor) they run anywhere from 1 to 4 stabs and will warp at any sign of backup for our side. i fought an enemy thorax 1 on 1 in my thorax and had 2pts on him, he warped at 30% structure then came back to kill me with 3 of his friends. stabs are like the easy button for this game. noobs who don't know how to set up ships put stabs on and that way if they get in trouble they can just turn around and warp out. playing with stabs eliminates the risk; no risk, no reward, right? i shouldn't have to fit more than one scrambler to keep a reasonable person from running away. pirating where i do a lot of people fly mwd ships which can easily outrun my ab2 frigates and especially my armageddons (slow mofos, ya know) it is entirely necessary to fit a webber or else my targets will get away. flying amarr bs and gallente frig/cruiser/af and fitting more than one scrambler just doesn't work. i can see how stabs are a viable option when flying an unfitted bs or a hauler through low sec, but on a combat ship it shows a serious lack of commitment to playing eve. i have to spend hours, days, even weeks troubleshooting a piracy setup on a ship to optimize it to be able to engage any target, any time, anywhere with a reasonable expectation of success. stabmonkeys, on the other hand, spend 5 seconds slapping stabs in their lows and automatically get to warp away from me because i don't have a billion kajillion mids to spare. PS: gordan freeman, ^^ -------=========+=========-------
Lorn Yeager Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.28 11:43:00 - [46] This is an age old discussion. But I am still not convinced that there is much wrong with the way things are right now regarding the WCS. The OP is right though, that if you "nerf" WCS you need to do something else with scramblers as well. How about removing both items all the same? This would stop the griefing in certain empire systems too. A few reasons why WCS are working fine: 1 - it enables more PvP, since people can try risky moves without certain death if things go awry. (few people engage without either knowing he has atlest a chance of getting away or winning the fight) 2 - the penalty of the fact that you HAVE to fit one WCS pr. point in you lows is high enough. You dont have to be able to catch your target everytime you either out-number or out-gun them. AND - this is where the flames may hit me - FIT YOUR INTERCEPTORS ACCORDING TO THIER ROLE instead of one-man fighters. Try to help you gang get at killmail, instead of allways wanting to be listed first. I have locked down countless people in my tristan with 2x 20km scramblers. Fast orbit and nos - no problem. Of course, if you have no backup it wont work. Regarding Stabbabonds, Its the ship that needs fixing... not the wcs. Lorn, ****ed off gallente.
Laboratus Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.28 12:37:00 - [47] Just make the warps scrams give you the same warp str penalty as the scrambler gives the target, all the time the scrambler is online. Mind control and tin hats
Laocoon Veto.	Posted - 2006.07.28 12:52:00 - [48] Originally by: Brisi How about you go put up an interdictor bubble in any low sec system near you. QFT. Interdictor bubbles don't work in 0.1-0.4, k? So they are (shock!) not the ultimate anti-wcs-nerf arguement they are repeatedly made out to be - Lao Veto. Corp
Laboratus Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.28 12:53:00 - [49] Gasp. Does that mean there is something that discourages low sec pirating? Oh noes. This is a grave injustice. Bring out the Nerf Guns! Nerf Low sec. Mind control and tin hats
Ozzie Asrail Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2006.07.28 12:54:00 - [50] Sorry but how about this dumb suggestion. YOU fit a scram too, then your attacker can't warp off if they start losing a fight. -----
Zanarkand Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.28 13:01:00 - [51] WCS if fine. WCS if fine. WCS is fine. WCS is NOT broken in any possible way. WCS nerf is NOT needed!!!
Laboratus Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.28 13:02:00 - [52] Originally by: Zanarkand WCS if fine. WCS if fine. WCS is fine. WCS is NOT broken in any possible way. WCS nerf is NOT needed!!! /signed It's the warp scramblers that need nurfin. Mind control and tin hats
Zetaa Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.28 14:37:00 - [53] Originally by: Murukan or you guys can stop whining like sandy little ****s and watch local better? Racist, much? ----- All men can see these tactics whereby I conquer, but what none can see is the strategy out of which victory is evolved.
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Faaip De Oiad	Posted - 2006.07.28 15:28:00 - [54] can someone plz enlighten me how this "nerf" exactly looks like?? thx ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Nicholai Pestot Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.28 16:58:00 - [55] In all fairness the hunter and the hunted should both have to sacrifice the same thing. If WCS were changed (again) to a midslot item that required activation to be used then that would make things nicely balanced again. With the onset of the stacking nerf for damage mods there are a few ships on which stabs become a no-brainer. The far more usefull nature of midslots would make fitting a WCS far more of a sacrifice. ________________ What you do is you store up the rage, let it fester while you gain strength, then use it to gank those weaker than you... and so the circle of life is complete
Laboratus Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:18:00 - [56] Originally by: Nicholai Pestot In all fairness the hunter and the hunted should both have to sacrifice the same thing. If WCS were changed (again) to a midslot item that required activation to be used then that would make things nicely balanced again. With the onset of the stacking nerf for damage mods there are a few ships on which stabs become a no-brainer. The far more usefull nature of midslots would make fitting a WCS far more of a sacrifice. Nope. It should always be more demanding to do offence than defence. Mind control and tin hats
Ishquar Teh'Sainte Faaip De Oiad	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:29:00 - [57] so where can i find information about this "nerf"? thx ___________________ -Skellibjalla- Life is a garden of perceptions. Pick your fruit.
Raider Zero Minmatar	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:42:00 - [58] Originally by: Zanarkand WCS if fine. WCS if fine. WCS is fine. WCS is NOT broken in any possible way. WCS nerf is NOT needed!!! /signed The reason there are already not enough targets in 0.0 is because the gank pirates have gotten too good and the noobs who go out there get killed 2-3 times a day so they come back. What in the world would anybody want to make WCS weaker for? There are certain ships that can fit a tank, offense, and WCS. But everybody has access to them, so as is the case in all the rest of EvE: if you can't beat 'em, join 'em. If you don't like somebody else's tactics because they work, steal their tactics and improve them-then continue to kill your enemy.
FFGR Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.07.28 17:47:00 - [59] /sarcasm on But the scramblers have already been nerfed last year /sarcasm off _____________________________ siggys v. 0.5
Kery Nysell Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.28 18:03:00 - [60] PvP bores me to tears. Stabs gimp my setupes to hell. I've made the choice, 14 MONTHS AGO, to never again go in "gank space". So now I have to live in high sec space, without acces to good ores, without access to good complexes, without acces to high end belt-rats, in short without access to easy money, but I still have to play in a game world where you need several billions (not a typo) if you want the real good toys ... All that because the PvPers in this game can easily force their style of play on the carebears. And now the only way we carebears can avoid being ganked ad nauseam if we want to try to make some ingame cash a little bit faster gets nerfed ? I know that this is a PvP game, but I can't see a reason why I would want to get hunted like a rabbit by some raving maniac for fun (that maniac probably has more stabs fitted than his preys, by the way ...).

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