Eh, if anything needs to go...

It's all the whiney threads.

ccp has already shown there complete unwillingess to communicate with you the player any further than general pr crap and i seriously doubt that they are gonna "roll back" any of the changes.

either you quit or move from w-space or just accept it and continue playing.

We live in c4 and find content in almost all our chains. Hyerion working as intended. Rolling is not difficult either

Really? I see gaps of days in your killboards with no kills at all before you go to lowsec to find some 'content'. But yeah, ignore the wormholers who scan all day and kill at least 20 ships in wormholes everyday. Feel free to keep discounting their experiences tho. Good job.

There is nothing incredibly bad about these changes, however there is nothing good to them either. They literally do nothing to help wormhole health and indeed weaken it as we have already seen people moving out. That means less content for everyone. I guess the highsec carebears and the nullbears have won this round.

All of us wormholers will have to unite and become lowsec pirates or a nullsec bloc (shudder).

Don't pull out the Killboard Epeen measuring stick if you haven't got any kills on your toon since 2012

7 year toon, only been in 1 corp, and I still have less than a mil sp (skill points: 768,576) and only 4 kills. crazy right? You sir are a great internet detective.

7 year toon, only been in 1 corp, and I still have less than a mil sp (skill points: 768,576) and only 4 kills. crazy right? You sir are a great internet detective.

We live in c4 and find content in almost all our chains. Hyerion working as intended. Rolling is not difficult either

We might just be at the turning point of a new order of wh pilots. This change shook wh space down to its core which changed the ecosystem of whs enough to make the niches that people enjoyed obselete. Its possible new niches will emerge and new pilots will fill those.

Is this good or bad I guess only time will tell. But these changes ended wh space as we knew it

So accept what we are given or leave wormhole space?

I seem to remeber a fable about that.
Here we are

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_aesop_dog_wolf.htm

Is that the choice you wish for us?

The big loss here, is still the lack of any ccp discussion, or our CSM for that matter saying anything besides lets wait for the numbers, Chita aside at least he went to the corps with ideas first before we shot them down for being crappy :P

The big loss here, is still the lack of any ccp discussion, or our CSM for that matter saying anything besides lets wait for the numbers, Chita aside at least he went to the corps with ideas first before we shot them down for being crappy :P

But at the moment I see no reason for people that make it worth to settle or venture into w-space.

There should have never been a reason to settle in w-space, and as far as venturing there, it's worth it now more then ever because all the good stuff isn't immediately closed off.

If all the "small corps" that comprise of 3 guys and their army of alts are having a problem milking the ISK cow, then cry me a river. Eve is a PvP orientated Massive Multiplayer game, not your private PvE server.

Please explain and describe the ISK cow in a c2/c3? Compared to other activities in eve

There should have never been a reason to settle in w-space, and as far as venturing there, it's worth it now more then ever because all the good stuff isn't immediately closed off.

If all the "small corps" that comprise of 3 guys and their army of alts are having a problem milking the ISK cow, then cry me a river. Eve is a PvP orientated Massive Multiplayer game, not your private PvE server.

There should have never been a reason to settle in w-space, and as far as venturing there, it's worth it now more then ever because all the good stuff isn't immediately closed off.

If all the "small corps" that comprise of 3 guys and their army of alts are having a problem milking the ISK cow, then cry me a river. Eve is a PvP orientated Massive Multiplayer game, not your private PvE server.

Seriously doubt all the rage is about C2/3s.

There should have never been a reason to settle in w-space, and as far as venturing there, it's worth it now more then ever because all the good stuff isn't immediately closed off.

If all the "small corps" that comprise of 3 guys and their army of alts are having a problem milking the ISK cow, then cry me a river. Eve is a PvP orientated Massive Multiplayer game, not your private PvE server.

There should have never been a reason to settle in w-space, and as far as venturing there, it's worth it now more then ever because all the good stuff isn't immediately closed off.

If all the "small corps" that comprise of 3 guys and their army of alts are having a problem milking the ISK cow, then cry me a river. Eve is a PvP orientated Massive Multiplayer game, not your private PvE server.

Additionally they are not the sacred cash cow. WH NPC sales have reliably accounted for double the direct isk injection into EVE that Incursions have. And that doesn't count any of the mining, any of the T3 production, or any of the other things that come out of WH's.

WTB sauce

Incursions account for a mere fraction of all isk generated in the game, because they are a limited resource. Based on averages 70 pilots at a time can make 100 Mil/Hr.

Oh, please, enlighten us WH players about your infinity respawning, zero risk, 'limited resource'. You poor baby.

PS: you stat of 70 people making 100mil/h is so stupidly low that i can't begin to imagine where you pulled it from.

Oh, please, enlighten us WH players about your infinity respawning, zero risk, 'limited resource'. You poor baby.

PS: you stat of 70 people making 100mil/h is so stupidly low that i can't begin to imagine where you pulled it from.

Average 5 trillion isk a month (Straight from Fanfest figures). If you assume 100/hr is the average income, that equates out to 70 pilots per hour able to make that income. People way overquote incursion income and ignore all the movement, wait times, slower fleets, TPPH walls, and all the risk that comes along with it.
If you want to believe that people earn more, then fewer people are able to make an income from incursions. Obviously that 70/hour is then spread across different people per timezone.

Then WH's earn about 10 Trillion isk per month from sales to the NPC buy orders, exactly how big a portion of WH income that is, I don't know, you would have better figures than I would as to if that is nearly all your income, or if that is a tiny portion, so I don't know what your earning power per month actually is, only the isk generation.

Does this mean WH income is right, I don't know. But stop crying about how Incursions are ruining all of EVE, because they are such a limited resource compared to other income streams.
Instead focus on what's at home. If low class WH's are suffering, then address low class WH's. etc.

You saying there is no waiting time and such in wspace? If you are real unlucky and get hit hard by random, your home sys can be without anything to do in days at a time, and you left with exploring your static for something do do. And when you running sites you have always the risk of someone dial into you. Imagine, doing incursion and the sites was "concord neutral" and anyone that wanted could interfere?

as for addressing anything wspace related, it seems like CCP put the wh community on a "ignore" mode.They turned into the WESAYSO company that know the sandbox best without actually playing in it. But that is their choice and if that pays out in the long run, well, they got the numbers and metrics...

I'm available for more case solving at a cheap rate of 100 mil an hour.


On the next episode of Sith the "Internet Detective" i'll discover where the Dusettes have gone.

GÖÑ Sith

Check the fanfest isk faucet graphs. Incursions account for a mere fraction of all isk generated in the game, because they are a limited resource. Based on averages 70 pilots at a time can make 100 Mil/Hr.
That is literally the entirety of Incursions income across EVE at one time. Hyperion will not have significantly changed that.
And since nearly all of Incursion income is isk, and not other items that sell on the market, the actual earning power of incursions is vastly lower relative to other activities than the isk graph indicates.

Perfectly fine for large elite corps, terrible for fresh, less experienced corps with fewer numbers.

With incursions now spawning every 12hrs, at least, I don't see any reason why wh site spawn rates shouldn't be changed to a time based regeneration model. There just isn't any reason to not do it given the current state of things in wormhole space relative to highsec or null.

Bob never knew what hit him, and now is suffering from a major identity crisis.

come one CCP, free Bob!


anyways the lack of any kind of proper reply still says here is your bone now just sit in the corner and gnaw on it..

i guess Corbexx you are our only hope... :P

No, I'm saying nothing of the sort. I've been into WH space a little, I know what the difficulties are to an extent.
I'm just saying that people are way over quoting what Incursions pay out, ignoring the fact only a handful can get that pay out at any one time, and ignoring all the difficulties and risk that incursions take.

Bob never knew what hit him, and now is suffering from a major identity crisis.

come one CCP, free Bob!


anyways the lack of any kind of proper reply still says here is your bone now just sit in the corner and gnaw on it..

i guess Corbexx you are our only hope... :P

words

bullcrap

I live in a c5...I am poor as ****. I dont carebear i only do sites when i need isk to buy ships, and from my experience thats what most wormholers do.

The problem is, is that when we need to carebear to replace the ships weve just whelped in pvp we cant so how are we supposed to pvp??

For those doing cap escals when 10 bills on the field if they get ganked how can they replace their ships?

Yes some people abused to system to build huge fortunes but the majority used it as a way so that we could pve less and pvp more.

Here is my take on things.

Before Hyperion was introduced, wh dwellers lived in their own bubble. It was safe (eyes on exits/wh collapsing) and profitable (anoms, PI and tech3 production) and when they wanted to PVP they would look for those unlucky ones who risked farming without their eyes on exits. It was a stale, boring and predictable place.

Now, these wh dwellers are not safe anymore and therefore can't profit as much as they did before. All the philosophical, hypothetical and theoretical BS that tries to legitimize all the tears in this thread is just that...BS. It came down to carebears not being able to profit anymore. Period. Some people say that they can't farm safely due to randoms in their hole (or scared to, due to 16 exits) and at the same time people say that wh dwellers are leaving wh (which supposedly means less pvp activity). These two things contradict each other. Less people in wormholes = safer to "farm" it. Or vice versa (if considering the former statement) which means "**** YEAH! MORE PVP IN INTERESTING ENVIRONMENT!".

There are ways that a person or even a small corp can still live in a wormhole relatively safe. Ready to get your head exploded? Merge your corp with an established wormhole alliance or if you are alone, join a corp that is in an established wormhole alliance!! Easy. Problem solved. I know, I know, you are not that smart to figure this out on your own. But that is why i am here! To teach you people how to survive in the harsh places which are known as wormholes.

TLDR;
I think this came down to CCP getting rid of all the carebears in WH space and that is Awesome! WH is a pvp zone, with blobs (albeit frigate-sized), and all the rest of the **** tactic package. True wh dwellers will find a way and man up. People who complain will leave for high sec because that is where the isk is (and they care for isk more than anything in EVE hence they complain here).
The whole incursion vs wormhole debate just proves it.

Goodbye carebears! -ö-+ -ü-¦-+-¦-¦-+-+-Å! Auf Wiedersehen! +ê+»+º+¦+º! Au revoir!

You won't be missed.

<3 CCP.

Yet another forum troll,
hiding behind an alt.
knows nothing
of wormholes.

This effort will increase pvp in the short term but empty the space more long term. If that is the goal, it will exceed expectations.

Less hole crashing = less pvp

Less people living in wh= less pvp


The systems are less safe and I'm not against that but the connecting worm holes to such an extent vs. what was in place seems like overkill without the end goal in mind.

The small changes, baby steps was the rule that should have been applied. I like a few of the features in the change. C4's are messed up. And when C4's and C2's intermingle off all the static connections it's a mess for everyone. I don't even see your pvp fleets you talk about. The sad fact is I keep running into some of the same corps far to often.

WH space was one of those places where if you wanted to keep to yourself you could do it better there vs. anyplace else.

I'm willing to bet money that less people live in wh after these changes. C4's are screwed up now. The population in these worm holes will drop significantly.

How about some content hmm?

In Internet slang, a troll (/-êtro-èl/, /-êtr+Æl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people by posting inflammatory extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

Instead of pointing fingers and calling someone a troll, how about some constructive response? Otherwise, you are disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

What about

Less hole crashing = less pvp
Less people living in wh = less pvp
Less pvp = more carebears from K-space/even fleets of them with POS setups etc.
More carebears = more pvp

In all honesty, I think it will balance out.

One of the first thing you missed is that the larger number of the people who are posting dissent in this thread (and the other thread) come from larger organised alliances for who the actual risk aspect is largely unchanged. Which tends to suggest your either a troll or have limited actual knowledge of wormhole space.

You guys need to stop with all the whinney entitlement threads allready, you have to realise that WH space is a pale face of its former self, the glory days of mad T3 brawls all the time are over, the majority of groups sum you up when seeing a scout of yours in their chain and roll away 90% of the time.

I get that the changes CCP have made are not the changes we have suggested in years of threads but it is about time CCP spent some dev time on WH space and try and fix the ***** lives you have all started to live in WH's. Do i wish they consulted more with us before? Sure but they are the game developers and we aren't, you are all lucky they discuss this stuff with us as much as they do really.

Fob me off as a troll all you will but i can pretty much call out almost every large group out bar only a couple that has rolled away hostile chains when their numbers were not perfect or they had some other ***** excuse lined up. They either rolled away or did douchey bullshit to avoid the fight anyway.

TBH the only people i feel sorry for this are the people that lived in C2 space before these changes. These people lived here for the ISk and PVP usually and they already risked more then the C4 sooks that come out of the woodwork to cry over these changes, and now they seem to have far too many holes to roll away when needed due to the majority of new C4 statics being C2's.

the only change i would make to hyperion is make the new frig Wh's only available WH>LS or WH>null, i think WH>WH frig holes are beyond stupid and defeat their intended goals of facilitating large groups to roam.

I get where ur coming from dude, the mass/distance change was put in to make it harder for groups to roll away from you. The problem is if they really don't want to fight, they will just POS up and log. You cannot force people to PvP, not even CCP can force PvP. At least with the old mechanics, if there wasn't going to be a fight, rolling away could be handled in minutes and everyone could get back to whatever it was they wanted to do. With the mass/distance changes, its the same outcome, barring stupidity I guess. Its just a lot worse for w-space to have groups POS spinning and logging out rather than simply rolling the hole.

If you want more groups to take fights at a numbers disadvantage, the only way you'll see it happen more is if it gets easier to replace losses and there are mechanics in place to help level the playing field. Hyperion arguably nerfed both.

I will be more then happy to discuss things further with you when you can post on your main, i will not discuss mechanics, gameplay or the joy of kitten cams with NPC alts.

I'll take that as a "you're probably right".

Incursions account for a mere fraction of all isk generated in the game, because they are a limited resource. Based on averages 70 pilots at a time can make 100 Mil/Hr.

You guys need to stop with all the whinney entitlement threads allready, you have to realise that WH space is a pale face of its former self, the glory days of mad T3 brawls all the time are over, the majority of groups sum you up when seeing a scout of yours in their chain and roll away 90% of the time.

I get that the changes CCP have made are not the changes we have suggested in years of threads but it is about time CCP spent some dev time on WH space and try and fix the ***** lives you have all started to live in WH's. Do i wish they consulted more with us before? Sure but they are the game developers and we aren't, you are all lucky they discuss this stuff with us as much as they do really.

Fob me off as a troll all you will but i can pretty much call out almost every large group out bar only a couple that has rolled away hostile chains when their numbers were not perfect or they had some other ***** excuse lined up. They either rolled away or did douchey bullshit to avoid the fight anyway.

TBH the only people i feel sorry for this are the people that lived in C2 space before these changes. These people lived here for the ISk and PVP usually and they already risked more then the C4 sooks that come out of the woodwork to cry over these changes, and now they seem to have far too many holes to roll away when needed due to the majority of new C4 statics being C2's.

The only change i would make to hyperion is make the new frig Wh's only available WH>LS or WH>null, i think WH>WH frig holes are beyond stupid and defeat their intended goals of facilitating groups to roam.

You shouldn't i am more then happy to debate with people further as i always have if you can look at my post history.

But i have a strict no debate with NPC alt rule other then to troll you for posting on that toon.

Winthorp read my post again, this is nothing about entitlement, i agree with you on that w-space has been hollowed out already.

the point is that these current changes are making things worse, and not improving things. Seeing you are feeling sorry for us as we live in a C2 :P we are pointing out that things already are declining and the emptiness will move up in C classes.

Your point about game devs ill take with a bit of salt, coming from the games industry, if you want to keep an enduring game, communication is key.

so if anything if this all is fixed in stone, then we should need more changes to make c1 to 4's to make them more appealing.

Also yeah frig holes... lets make a sand box where players are free to do what they want, but hey lets make something only for a limited ship size so we force them to use them...

The new environment may require a fundamental change in attitude towards pve losses. Until now, any pve loss was a reason to be embarrassed. If you lost a ship in pve, it meant you screwed up (with the sole exception of a disconnect maybe). That you are a noob. A failbear. Haha. So even pvp players who are not afraid to risk ships in pvp all the time are very afraid to risk losing a ship in pve.

Under the new conditions, it may often be impossible to secure a system 100%. You can still improve your odds greatly by being vigilant, check dscan etc, but even if you do everything right, an attacker might still have a chance to slip in unseen and get you.

Most people's reaction so far seems to be to just not run sites anymore. But if we start to accept that occasional losses in pve are inevitable, and no reason to be embarrassed because they will happen to almost everyone, then in the long run everyone could profit. If everyone is a victim sometimes, then there are a lot more targets out there.

Personally I lost just one ship in pve in the last 3+ years, and only because I made a mistake, so I haven't provided much content to my fellow w-space gankers. If all of us out there trying to gank people would also sometimes be ganked, the total number of gank targets would sharply increase, providing much more fun for everyone. I know it sounds weird, but...

Of course this can only work if people still make a good profit after losses (doubtful under current conditions, especially in c1/2), and if people start to use and fit ships that can do the job and fly in teams instead of using solo billion-plus pimpmobiles. That most players in w-space regularly 'risk' ships nobody would ever bring into nullsec just shows how 'dangerous' w-space really was.

Most people's reaction so far seems to be to just not run sites anymore. But if we start to accept that occasional losses in pve are inevitable, and no reason to be embarrassed because they will happen to almost everyone, then in the long run everyone could profit.

You're not gonna see your perfect world of everybody ganking everybody else. Its a pipe dream. Not until the risk vs. reward in wormholes makes sense again. Wormholes are not a closed system, but you are clearly making that assumption. That assumption is wrong.

Yes, I assume people choose first where they like to live gameplay-wise, and that they treat isk income as a secondary concern. I know many people are different, but I couldn't care less about those people.

Still, like I said, low-class income needs a buff. It was okay when ribbons netted 8m apiece, but with just over 3m it's a joke to run sites in c1/2, especially now when there is some actual risk involved.

Things must be bad if 3/4 WH corps that I trade with are bowing out. Is it a matter of sites and worm hole exits actually broken post patch?

You may not care for players who seek to optimize their isk/effort vs. risk, but that's the group that can fill w-space with targets and content unlike any other. There's very little loyalty in eve. Certainly not enough hardcore w-space only dudes to get the job done. So if you "care" about w-space you have to care about risk vs. reward compared to ALL the alternatives. At the end of the day that's the only thing that truly matters in terms of bringing in the content.

But the problem is that the ratio of total noobs and completely stupid people had become too low in w-space. Almost everyone had become proficient enough to always close all their holes before ratting (or just waiting for a day without open holes). Even the most incompetent players could easily get all needed info on how to be safe from the many guides and forums. Long gone are the days when the proficient elite kept their knowledge for themselves and all the scrubs didn't even know (and often refused to believe) that the k162 doesn't exist until the other side is warped to.

The result was that the only way to find anyone vulnerable was a) rolling holes or b) being the first to scan a new hole leading into them GÇô plus in both cases them being asleep for at least one minute so they wouldn't see the new sig before you came in.

With everyone knowing everything about every game mechanic, there were too few mistakes made, and without mistakes there are no ganks.

So I think CCP had to change the rules so that an incalculable risk is always present, no matter what we do. Because if there is a near-100% safe way to do things, we would sooner or later all do it again that way.

But you're right in that the rewards must be good compared to other parts of EVE to draw or keep those players who get their fun from isk earned (however that works) instead of from doing something risky and unpredictable.

But the problem is that the ratio of total noobs and completely stupid people had become too low in w-space.

...

So I think CCP had to change the rules so that an incalculable risk is always present, no matter what we do. Because if there is a near-100% safe way to do things, we would sooner or later all do it again that way.

But you're right in that the rewards must be good compared to other parts of EVE to draw or keep those players who get their fun from isk earned (however that works) instead of from doing something risky and unpredictable.

The big loss here, is still the lack of any ccp discussion, or our CSM for that matter saying anything besides lets wait for the numbers, Chita aside at least he went to the corps with ideas first before we shot them down for being crappy :P

Since you're dropping names... Corbexx has been vocal about the spawn distance thing from day one and has been leading the charge to increase communication on it between CCP and players. In fact, ever since Corbexx has been CSM, communication between CCP and W-space residents has increased dramatically, even if most of it is one-way. There have been more CCP posts in these forums in the short time he has been in than the entire time we've had these forums. Stop and think about that and what that means for a moment, and how much he's pushing for W-space.

By contrast, even though you praise Chitsa, he advocated the mass spawn distance change that the majority hates. CCP says "Wormhole CSM" suggested/approved/recommended/whatever the change. Guess who that was? Right. But this isn't even a bash Chitsa thread.

If you had been reading the forums, you'd know how much work Corbexx has done, and you'd know where he stood. It's probably certain he hasn't approached every corp and alliance, but conversely, have you approached him? Have you tried get him to schedule time with your corp/alliance? You should do that, even if it's to say you support him, or to ask him for clarification on his stance instead of throwing coals at him. Your corp is well-respected. Don't trash their good name with garbage posts like this.

And let's not drop names or point fingers at each other like someone else said. There are some good things about this patch, and some really, really BAD things about this patch. Support our CSM and help him make our case to CCP by focusing on the points that suck with clear, calm, and rational points and counter-points.



Like many people have been saying, it takes time for these things to settle down. Overall, those of us who live here project that most of these changes will have negative consequences to the activity levels in W-space. In general, making changes to a part of something you have no clue about is bad. Time will tell who is right (if it even matters at that point).

The CSM should provide info what he can do, and what is happening when hes allowed, and the lack of feedback from CCP isnt his fault, nor can he demand it.

and the other 1/4 will leave because no anom/data/relic wil spawn ;)

They are probably there somewhere, we just need to make sure we activate them in empty wormholes wherever we find them to get them back into the pool. I am guessing that Hyperion reset them all when it came in.
But rumors and statements about the emptying of lower class Wh systems and sites just not being run, would also show similar effects, hard to know which is the case here.

It certainly is not helping things though.
Is that something CCP can solve easily with a database "stir" ? Where any systems full of them can be reset?

Since you're dropping names... Corbexx has been vocal about the spawn distance thing from day one and has been leading the charge to increase communication on it between CCP and players. In fact, ever since Corbexx has been CSM, communication between CCP and W-space residents has increased dramatically, even if most of it is one-way. There have been more CCP posts in these forums in the short time he has been in than the entire time we've had these forums. Stop and think about that and what that means for a moment, and how much he's pushing for W-space.

By contrast, even though you praise Chitsa, he advocated the mass spawn distance change that the majority hates. CCP says "Wormhole CSM" suggested/approved/recommended/whatever the change. Guess who that was? Right. But this isn't even a bash Chitsa thread.

If you had been reading the forums, you'd know how much work Corbexx has done, and you'd know where he stood. It's probably certain he hasn't approached every corp and alliance, but conversely, have you approached him? Have you tried get him to schedule time with your corp/alliance? You should do that, even if it's to say you support him, or to ask him for clarification on his stance instead of throwing coals at him. Your corp is well-respected. Don't trash their good name with garbage posts like this.

And let's not drop names or point fingers at each other like someone else said. There are some good things about this patch, and some really, really BAD things about this patch. Support our CSM and help him make our case to CCP by focusing on the points that suck with clear, calm, and rational points and counter-points.



Like many people have been saying, it takes time for these things to settle down. Overall, those of us who live here project that most of these changes will have negative consequences to the activity levels in W-space. In general, making changes to a part of something you have no clue about is bad. Time will tell who is right (if it even matters at that point).

It's sad to hear someone say that "we are lucky CCP did the small amount of wormhole development in Hyperion" because they're probably right

Give it three years and they will probably roll back the changes and call that an expansion.

Where are my roaming sleepers, C7 wormholes and tech 3 frigates?

Wow so many wormholes connecting to our system, constant pew. Is 7 connecting holes the new norm?

Even the pathetic crying about NPC characters posting is old and doesn't accomplish anything; sounds like Nullsec mental deficiency creeping into this forum. People have their reasons for using the characters they use in various aspects of this game, and just because it generates tears doesn't mean they'll change. Regardless of which character posts, embrace (or attack, whatever) the words, not the poster. I would have thought a Diplo to be more capable and understanding than that.

1. Make wormholes more about players controlling their environment, specifically how their home system is connected to the outside. Make rolling holes easier not harder/more tedious.

That's a really good way to look at it. Wormhole space is easy to understand (if you try), has relatively few mechanics, and very few timers. It's easy. It's just exceptionally deadly because your environment can change when you're not looking.

One key defining characteristic is that the landscape, the neighborhood, is constantly changing as a natural game process (liken that to PvE). Another key defining characteristic is that you can change that landscape behind your opponent's back (liken that to PvP). Just like we consider market warfare to be PvP, using wormhole mechanics against your target is also PvP, whether it's done by bears to create a false sense of security or by hunters trying to trap bears. I'm sure most of us have stories of combat rolling in the middle of a pitched battle to try to divide your opponents forces (or having it happen to you).

CCP should embrace this second key aspect of wormhole space, even if it means their Nullsec masters get stuck or shot. Those things can all be remedied or even outright avoided anyway by doing what we have to do: use scouts and bring "friends" (or multiple accounts).

The ability to change the environment isn't one-sided. The mechanics are easy to understand (again, if you try), and anyone can do it. Whether you have the supporting numbers to do it successfully is another matter (again, bring "friends"). But it's not a lop-sided mechanic that warrants change. The only reason to change is if you want to artificially restrict what you can do in the sandbox to try to prevent or encourage specific behaviour.

Thinking about it, most of the problems and crying in the game tend to spring forth out of the desire to shoehorn single-player activity into a game that really wants to be multi-player more than any other game I've ever seen. That's something else CCP should encourage: more people means more subs which means more income for them.

Unless they're trying to allow Nullsec to affect all regions of space yet be affected by none, except when they desire it. Recent patches have worked really well to that purpose, intended or no. Whatever happened to "HTFU, this is a dangerous and multi-player game"? Does it not apply to all aspects of the game anymore?

When our Alliance/Coalition found out that C4s were going to get an extra static, we got excited. We used to live in a C2 with a C3 and HS static, and now, within a week of Hyperion, moved into a C4, with a C2/C4 static. We now have huge chains, and are finding pew, as well as plenty of sites to run. We run an armor fleet with reps. We do not close all the holes, we happily farm in our static that has connections open. We put scouts on the holes. We welcome people to try and shoot us, as then we can shoot back or warp back and reship into something a little bit better for PvP if necessary.

Wormholes are risk vs reward, though in the 4 months I've been living in WH space (not that much experience) we have never had a loss to PvE ships getting ganked. If you use watch the holes, and know what you are doing you should not have a problem.

I have not heard anyone really complain about any of the changes in our Alliance/Coalition, minus the frigate wormholes. I personally even like the changes to mass spawn, as it makes it harder and a bit more hairy if you are closing a hole. It should not be so easy.

It seems the vocal majority of these forums are WH isk farmers, I know a lot of other corps that are happy with the changes, that all are more PvP based. Yes a few things still need tweaking, a bit more reward for sites or the mining anomalies should be scanned again, as this would get miners back in their nice shiny ships.

All these raging threads about how everything is now broken will stop any new people entering WH space. The first thing people will do if they are thinking about moving the wormhole space will be to check the forums. When they see all these threads they might not decided to move in. Exactly the opposite of what I believe most people want.

Anyways, just my two '4 month wormhole experience' cents.

That's a really good way to look at it. Wormhole space is easy to understand (if you try), has relatively few mechanics, and very few timers. It's easy. It's just exceptionally deadly because your environment can change when you're not looking.

One key defining characteristic is that the landscape, the neighborhood, is constantly changing as a natural game process (liken that to PvE). Another key defining characteristic is that you can change that landscape behind your opponent's back (liken that to PvP). Just like we consider market warfare to be PvP, using wormhole mechanics against your target is also PvP, whether it's done by bears to create a false sense of security or by hunters trying to trap bears. I'm sure most of us have stories of combat rolling in the middle of a pitched battle to try to divide your opponents forces (or having it happen to you).

CCP should embrace this second key aspect of wormhole space, even if it means their Nullsec masters get stuck or shot.

.

I'm failing to see why people think that the isk farmers don't like Hyperion. Closing off thei hole is a little harder now, but there are even less people rolling the new sigs. Their are less people rage rolling. This is a bearing paradise.

While I agree Hyperion is a mess it's for completely the opposite reasons.

Regarding risk, there isn't much for the most part. All the increased incoming traffic is just lambs to the slaughter. Small ships that can't compete against even a single player defense. Free kills for daytrippers! Free kills for venture killers! Free kills free kills!!

An evic fleet is more likely to stumble into a hole... however they actually have to WANT to fight for the it... and I think that drive is lower. So risk wise it feels like a steady stream of easy kills with no one else really caring enough to put so much effort into a steady stream of easy kills. May as well park at Uedama.

Logistics wise, wow two exits to high sec per day! Damn, not only do I get to exit to high sec I get OPTIONS. That would have been glorious in the past. Now it's tuesday.

To me it just feels like they turned on cheat mode. Maybe I should be happy about this but... it just... feels... boring.

While I agree Hyperion is a mess it's for completely the opposite reasons.

Regarding risk, there isn't much for the most part. All the increased incoming traffic is just lambs to the slaughter. Small ships that can't compete against even a single player defense. Free kills for daytrippers! Free kills for venture killers! Free kills free kills!!

An evic fleet is more likely to stumble into a hole... however they actually have to WANT to fight for the it... and I think that drive is lower. So risk wise it feels like a steady stream of easy kills with no one else really caring enough to put so much effort into a steady stream of easy kills. May as well park at Uedama.

Logistics wise, wow two exits to high sec per day! Damn, not only do I get to exit to high sec I get OPTIONS. That would have been glorious in the past. Now it's tuesday.

To me it just feels like they turned on cheat mode. Maybe I should be happy about this but... it just... feels... boring.

We have 4 High Sec connections in our chain today.

We have 4 High Sec connections in our chain today.

I absolutely loved the C1 C2 C3 C4 and C5 at the same time in our wormhole. Especially since we had the utmost luck of running into occupied WHs, having entire train of battlecruisers fly through our WH. IT was happiest ship spinning of my life :D It made us so happy that we packed the POS and are leaving for C5, rather then trying to make a living in C4s. Whilst the change might seem good for some, I hate it as it made C4s nearly uninhabitable.

...it's like:

"****, my bubbler is on the other hole!"
"Wich hole? .. the k162?"
"No, THIS k162!"

"Ok, he warped between PII and PIV!"
"Nice, I'm on it!" .... "No wait, this is the frig hole and ... a Proteus decloaked next to me .. ****!"
"Confirmed, we got 2 new sigs. I scan em ... sry for your loss."
"nw, I reship in Jita. Back in a minute."

I know its not a popular opinion on the forums, especially the post patch whineathon that the wormhole forum has become, but if you wont fight for it, you shouldn't be holding it, and if you can't or won't fight for it, please don't come here complaining about it.

[quote=Mithandra]I don't think he's complaining anymore, he adapted like you guys have and I have. Still, its like adapting to TV dinners and microwave veggies, when just a week ago you were eating filet mignon.

Am I the only one that prefers TV Dinner to Filet Mignon?
I mean literally, not metaphorically.

There should have never been a reason to settle in w-space, and as far as venturing there, it's worth it now more then ever because all the good stuff isn't immediately closed off.

If all the "small corps" that comprise of 3 guys and their army of alts are having a problem milking the ISK cow, then cry me a river. Eve is a PvP orientated Massive Multiplayer game, not your private PvE server.

Really small C4 corp here, we pve and (try to) pvp on opportunities that present themselves.

This patch has pretty much ruined it for us because our second static is a C1 (can't effectively collapse with small number of players in reasonable time) and that it seems doing sites is suicide, as wormholes pop up so often. No sites, no money to replace things we get blobbed on (that's annoying too lol)

Seriously considering packing up and returning to k space or unsubbing altogether. (cause me no like kspace) :'(

Don't like the C1? Learn to adapt and take over another WH, or just quit and wait for someone to hold your hand in another game.

This sounds more like a problem with your pilots ability to label holes in an easy and meaningful manner, rather than a problem with the patch.

Don't like the C1? Learn to adapt and take over another WH, or just quit and wait for someone to hold your hand in another game.

I don't understand. If Hyperion's goal was to move people out of C4's, then mission accomplished. Seen many people packing up POS's.

Yes

So much generalization with your post and so many others, like i have said many times WH's were empty before Hyperion and people see them empty now and say everyone is leaving.....

Try waiting for some data or response from CCP as only they have real data, so many ******* armchair statisticians.

Really small C4 corp here, we pve and (try to) pvp on opportunities that present themselves.

This patch has pretty much ruined it for us because our second static is a C1 (can't effectively collapse with small number of players in reasonable time) and that it seems doing sites is suicide, as wormholes pop up so often. No sites, no money to replace things we get blobbed on (that's annoying too lol)

Seriously considering packing up and returning to k space or unsubbing altogether. (cause me no like kspace) :'(

Nobody needs to lose their jobs, let's not start World War 3, it isn't totally terrible - it just failed to achieve the original aims of Hyperion and needs some tweaks to make Wormhole Space more viable to increase activity.

Yes they do need to lose their job.

You said your self I at they failed to accomplish the primary objective of the patch.

Now we know they are hiding under a rock.

If I go to Starbucks and order a coffee, the server hands me a cup of mud and tells me that if I don't drink fast it will either explode or someone else will steal it. Then hides under the counter. I would want them fired to.

How have they hidden under a rock? I Have seen more dev posts in the WH forums in the last 6 months then i have in my many years of playing.

You should drink less coffee though it seems to be rotting your brain.

How have they hidden under a rock? I Have seen more dev posts in the WH forums in the last 6 months then i have in my many years of playing.

You should drink less coffee though it seems to be rotting your brain.

Yes they do need to lose their job.

You said your self I at they failed to accomplish the primary objective of the patch.

Now we know they are hiding under a rock.

If I go to Starbucks and order a coffee, the server hands me a cup of mud and tells me that if I don't drink fast it will either explode or someone else will steal it. Then hides under the counter. I would want them fired to.

Because people don't ever make mistakes. Holy crap, lighten up. Do I like the changes? No (except the BM changes - awesome). Am I going to be screaming someone needs to get fired? No. You sir, should never be an employer.

3. Make lower class wh sleeper drops better and more worth while to run. this is class 1-3

C4s too.

yea i did not include 4's in that statement as i tend to run c4 s to pay for my ships to fight with and it seemed self serving

What do you expect when the guy who designed the Nestor is given the job of "fixing" wormhole space?

This a million times.

If there is anything to be learned from years of playing this game, it is that the player base is extremely pessimistic and will complain about every change and every patch. This usually continues until most of the player base realize that the change wasn't as bad as they thought, or gave them an additional avenue/mechanic that gives them more of an advantage than the change's perceived negative.

"Bah bah bah frigate holes" will turn to "Sweet, a frigate hole, lets get a frigate gang going and find some targets for cheap(er) pvp"
"Bah bah bah mass distance" will turn to "Let's bait these guys into a fight by rolling with a bait Orca."

Cheaper pvp really? You found much cheap worthy pvp so far with the frig holes? It been out for some time now, so have you?

And yes, bait orca not obvious at all.

Cheaper pvp really? You found much cheap worthy pvp so far with the frig holes? It been out for some time now, so have you?

"Bah bah bah frigate holes" will turn to "Sweet, a frigate hole, lets get a frigate gang going and find some targets for cheap(er) pvp"

There can be a role for frig holes in w-space, but I don't see one currently outside of trolling people who are more likely than most to be new to w-space. Hence the Nestor comparison.

Make them spawn to null, or just kspace only. Its more likely you find something to do with them then.

CCP intended them to screw with W-space, because for some reason before the frig holes we somehow weren't able to engage in frigate combat. If they meant for them to be useful for places that actually use frigates, aside from Nullsec frigate blobs into W-space, they would have added them to all of K-space.

Like so many other things lately, the change (addition) mostly only raises eyebrows of the big groups, while it provides a huge incentive for small groups to cut their activities when one is present.

Not only does CCP not understand W-space, but I'm starting to think they don't know what life is like outside of a 5000-man alliance.

Well the frig holes can already connect to null so can't help but think the CCP dev team behind this was like "hey goonswarm harpy fleets are awesome, lets send them to w-space and raise hell there hederpy derp derp" and there ya go.

For wormhole dudes, putting this kind of hole in our space is like building an aircraft carrier in the Sahara. I mean, to me it just has this "WTF is that doing here" quality to it. Its there, but there's no water, no backdrop provided to make sense out of it. Its like a half-finished project.

Well the frig holes can already connect to null so can't help but think the CCP dev team behind this was like "hey goonswarm harpy fleets are awesome, lets send them to w-space and raise hell there hederpy derp derp" and there ya go.

For wormhole dudes, putting this kind of hole in our space is like building an aircraft carrier in the Sahara. I mean, to me it just has this "WTF is that doing here" quality to it. Its there, but there's no water, no backdrop provided to make sense out of it. Its like a half-finished project.

However, i do remember the time when NC. came thru a wormhole connection into fountain and ganked the local NPC dwellers that liked to hotdrop peeps in their carriers - resulting in plenty of capital km whoring action on my behalf (pre-hyperion)

So they used wormholes as a route between two Nullsec destinations? If that's the case, CCP should just make them K-K holes instead of W-K and W-W. I'm pretty sure Lowsec would love those holes.

These new small ship wormholes will only originate in W-space systems, and can lead to any other W-space systems or to nullsec space. The chance of connections between the extreme ends of the spectrum (very high class to very low class and vice versa) will be somewhat lower to ensure that low-class wormholes do not become flooded with frigate fleets from higher classes.

The only real place where frig holes have a "use" is disrupting PvE activities in lower class holes. Ganking T1 BC's, BS's, salvage destroyers, noctis, and the occasional solo PvE T3. The problem is there's nothing the latter can do to prevent such a gank, except wait for the frig hole to close on its own or park a scout alt on the hole. This on top of all the extra random connections, mass/spawn distance making it harder/riskier to roll those extra connections and the lack of any incentive to bother with lower class wormhole sites in the first place and....well its easy to see that the current iteration of frig holes isn't going to bring more pilots to actually live in w-space, especially in lower class holes.

Yes that is correct, i probably could have made it clearer, and i agree lowsec to null holes could actually be quite nice.

I think all the treads are not winy but the community feels they have been wronged.

CCP asked for input and got it then just totally ignored it.

Its funny how most ppl troll threads when It dose not affect them but fail to give thought to How or when it will happen to them or how it will affect them in the long term.

Less pilots in w space = less things to shoot


I feel the biggest Thing ever implemented up until now to hurt w space was incursions. This gave Pilots a option to make lots of isk without having to go into w space to run sights.

Now with the mass based jumps Smaller corps are hurt by this. Larger corps not so much except down the road when there is less to shoot at

2 . Delayed k162 spawns are a good change

3. Frig Holes are just Clutter and we are finding them mostly useless

4 re spawning mass on whs i really don't have a opinion on.

As i said Above we will see in the long run How detrimental this is to w space But the Future Dose not look bright.

If CCP was too remove local From low and Null this would make 0.0 and Low much more interesting to Fly in and remove some server load from the data base

PS Oh Yea hey Mcpate..Go Ducks!!!!

Connecting FW systems would be pretty cool. And null to null frig holes might be a game-changer as far as enabling surprise attacks via cyno into deep blue null as it would bypass local and intel channels. Might be a place for it there if the sov changes are halfway decent.

2. A higher class wh like a c7 that has massive mass whs that you can move a proper cap fleet and support fleet to run sleeper sites with capital sleepers and get back out . We will be able to have large fleet fights as well in there. Make The class 7 with no moons so it can not be "lived" in and multiple connections

If there is anything to be learned from years of playing this game, it is that the player base is extremely pessimistic and will complain about every change and every patch. This usually continues until most of the player base realize that the change wasn't as bad as they thought, or gave them an additional avenue/mechanic that gives them more of an advantage than the change's perceived negative.

"Bah bah bah frigate holes" will turn to "Sweet, a frigate hole, lets get a frigate gang going and find some targets for cheap(er) pvp"
"Bah bah bah mass distance" will turn to "Let's bait these guys into a fight by rolling with a bait Orca."

[quote=Kell Braugh][quote=Kadm][quote=Sith1s Spectre]

I reckon quit with the complaints and get on with the game.

Are you New to the world? Lets see them make changes to null that totally change play style and activity and See that thread

Lets see them make changes to null that totally change play style and activity and See that thread

For this upcoming CSM summit we are planning to discuss in detail a set of significant, specific and targeted changes that we hope to release in late 2014, as well as the concepts and prototypes that we are developing for more far-reaching changes in 2015.

Funny, that's exactly what they are working on at the very moment.



And the pre-change threadnought: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread

Change is good. It keeps the game interesting. Adapting is good. It keeps your brains alive.

So you wouldn't mind for your house to be burned down (this was the case with the WH's), it will make your life interesting and you would have to adapt(living under a bridge and stuff).

Change just to make a shinny Dev blog post and ignore most of the players (who actually live in WH) is bad.

Except that no "houses were burnt down", it made our lives interesting and we have already adapted and not living under the bridge.

You see, Hyperion changes didn't make the environment any less desirable for everyone. I'm not accepting bad design choice because I don't find them bad.

It's ok if you take the other choice, this is a game like you said.

I enjoy wormholes because they are dangerous, and I'd be happy to see them even more riskier. Exposure to risk makes mundane tasks more interesting.

Less rewarding? Rib prices are up, PVE makes more ISK now.

Mass-based spawning, persistent signatures, frig whs, rebalance of WH FX and dual statics for C4s were all successes imo, and dev time well spent.

I accept that I'm in the minority on these forums, but since they are a poor indicator of general opinion in most cases, I feel it's important that I speak up on behalf of the thousands that can't stand the trolls and whiners here, and choose to play the game instead.

As it Stands, Hyperion, was disruptive, with no benefits granted, and failed to achieve any of the stated or desired goals.

The main overarching goals of our proposed changes are:

Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most havenGÇÖt changed in many years
Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to GÇÿtameGÇÖ and control wormhole mechanics
Address some of the imbalance between wormhole environment effects
Address some of the imbalance between wormhole classes

To reach that goal we are proposing the most significant package of improvements to wormhole space since the release of the Apocrypha expansion in 2009.

These changes consist of:

Wormhole effect rebalance
A second static for Class 4 wormholes
More randomly spawning wormholes
Mass-based spawn distance after wormhole jumps
K162 appearance only on first jump
Loosening of bookmark copying restrictions
Ensuring that scan signatures stay consistent over downtime

I bolded the part most relevant to your incessant whining.

So yes, they wanted to make rolling more PITA and risky, and achieved exactly that.

hth

I bolded the part most relevant to your incessant whining.

So yes, they wanted to make rolling more PITA and risky, and achieved exactly that.

hth