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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.01 23:34:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP Greyscale asked that all compression chat be shunted into an adjunct thread, so here we go.
Since Crius kneecapped scrap metal reprocessing, compressed ore is the new hotness. However, the process of generating compressed ore is proving to be somewhat cumbersome, and, in my opinion, insufficient motivation is given by the game itself to point towards compression as a viable alternative to reprocessing ore.
I feel this could be improved by three simple changes.
1) Add a station compression service. This removes the barrier of entry that a POS requires, and makes compression ubiquitous for all. This does not obviate the use of the POS module -- a savvy miner might set up a POS in a system without a station, and use the POS compression module to help keep their industry well lubricated.
2) Add UI hints in the reprocessing dialog to point towards compression. Currently, items which are not profitable to reprocess are highlighted in red. Extend this functionality to ores whose compressed version is reasonably more profitable than its constituent minerals.
3) Consolidate ore variants to a single type of compressed ore. For example, compressing Concentrated Veldspar and Dense Veldspar would output Compressed Veldspar. Tweaking the input amounts to correspond to the higher amount of minerals contained in the ore variants would make this work.
If any other folks have any ideas as to how to incentivize ore compression, please feel free to post. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
776
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Posted - 2014.09.02 14:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
I'd agree that station compression would probably have an associated fee. I'd say an isk cost rather than a materials tax, as sinking more isk is always a good thing. The starbase compression module, of course, would be free of this fee. I'd also entertain the notion of having the station compression service only available in empire, or perhaps only highsec, to incentivize use of the starbase module (and rorqual!) in lower-security space.
Having station compression does not completely obsolete the starbase compression module. Many systems in empire do not have stations, which would allow a savvy miner to set up a starbase in this system to ease his or her logistics in a way that others can't. This goes doubly for nullsec, where the costs of a (small) starbase are much, much cheaper than an outpost for any reasonable length of time. And, of course, you can't forget wormholes. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
776
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Posted - 2014.09.02 14:56:00 -
[3] - Quote
Not to mention the following:
http://i.imgur.com/nCFLg91.png
I believe that even with station compression, you'll still be able to buy ore from people in geographically remote areas at a cost advantage. Adding station compression in empire doesn't threaten this. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.02 17:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
A lot of the contrary opinions posted here are primarily from the mining side of the equation. My perspective is more from the producer's side -- there is simply not enough compressed ore on the market to satisfy even minimal levels of production. Consider the scale at which a miner works and a scale at which a producer works -- the producer needs many factors of magnitude more compressed ore than a miner, or a compressor-for-hire deals with on a routine basis. What seems like a lot to you is a drop in the bucket for us. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.02 17:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
More proof that the mineral market is fundamentally broken is the price of highend minerals. Highend minerals are reaching historic lows, with zydrine at 400 and megacyte below 1000. This is due to one, simple reason -- you need a large number of lowend minerals to soak up highends, and there aren't enough lowends to go around. Furthermore, with highsec miners (traditionally the largest producers of lowend minerals) reprocessing their ores locally, the problem is exacerbated -- the primary consumers of lowend minerals (nullsec) can't feasibly use the minerals due to their bulk.
Making compression ubiquitous and easy helps both the miners, who sell the minerals, and producers, which consume the minerals, work together to even out this imbalance. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
776
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Posted - 2014.09.02 17:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote: Price signals do not work when the producers are too dimwitted to respond to them. So basically you are saying people are too dumb to make a profit in EvE and the market is broken when the market is ruthless for pretty much other item. I am pretty sure that is it and not you being a cheapskate. Here is what i suspect: The market accurately reflects the effort and much volume is handled via private contracts. You can currently buy plenty of compressed veldspar at a 19% markup in Jita. Seems fair to me considered the hauling around issue. Here is a thought: a.) pay the extra fee to the people who do the logistics of buying ore, hauling it, compressing it, and hauling it back b.) befriend some highsec miner corporation to get a stable deal c.) recruit miners for your 0.0 operation (because that is what this is about) and stop treating them like ****. Either way the easy mode mineral logistics is gone for now. HTFU. None of your thoughts actually help the problem. Let's break them down one by one.
A) We're already doing this. Trit is starting to even out, but mexallon and isogen do not have enough market volume to meet the demands of even a single nullsec producer. B) The sheer number of minerals required to do any meaningful production make befriending a highsec mining corporation (or 100 of them) infeasible. The market typically deals with these inefficiencies by dint of pricing, but there just isn't enough supply to go around, on account of the vast majority of the supply being reprocessed in a terrible manner. C) As stated earlier, the mineral composition of nullsec anomalies and belts is primarily highends. Mulching a Colossal hidden belt provides a mere pittance of lowends required, while generating yet more highends, which are completely useless. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.02 18:19:00 -
[7] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Querns wrote:
A) We're already doing this. Trit is starting to even out, but mexallon and isogen do not have enough market volume to meet the demands of even a single nullsec producer. B) The sheer number of minerals required to do any meaningful production make befriending a highsec mining corporation (or 100 of them) infeasible. The market typically deals with these inefficiencies by dint of pricing, but there just isn't enough supply to go around, on account of the vast majority of the supply being reprocessed in a terrible manner. C) As stated earlier, the mineral composition of nullsec anomalies and belts is primarily highends. Mulching a Colossal hidden belt provides a mere pittance of lowends required, while generating yet more highends, which are completely useless.
to A.) There is no shortage of supply in EvE for any item that is not hard capped. You can either pay more and provide an immediate incentive or you can wait if you think the inventive is high enough and people should come around. In any case the market is right and you are not. B.) If that is a problem for you, you have the ingame tools to solve them. C.) That is reinforcing my point. If you need Low-Ends in 0.0 you probably should pay a premium for it in 0.0 (or in highsec for the logistical effort). That way your miners might stop mining Arkonor and start mining Veldspar solving a few problems on the way. You have viable industry now in 0.0, but that sword cuts both ways. By current design you can't have nullsec production costs and highsec supply costs. Personally i think that is a good thing. As i said, start recruiting miners.
You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.
Nullsec mining primarily occurs by way of gravimetric anomalies. These sites have a static ore composition of many types, and are generated by the Infrastructure hub. Once one of these sites is fully mined out, it respawns to be mined again.
The problem this produces is that in order to get more of the lowend minerals you need, you have to mine an absolute truckload of useless highends. Looking at the (slightly dated, but useful for this example) Bloodtear Industry Report, we can see that the composition of a Large gravimetric site (the most commonly mined site) contains the following composition:
http://i.imgur.com/24LTeL3.png (the forums don't really handle tabular data well so an image will have to suffice)
In order to get the 400k lowends you need, you have to mulch through 945k of other stuff. This limits the intake of useful minerals considerably by adding a massive speedbump in the form of forced acquisition of sub-par minerals. These roadblocks disincentivize mining in nullsec considerably by not only forcing additional sub-optimal labor, but also reduce the profit of the activity of mining overall, encouraging potential miners to do other things. (Unlike what you may have heard, we don't believe in enslaving our line members.)
This is discounting the danger contained by mining in nullsec, but I'm willing to disregard this, as it's a separate issue (and one much less defensible at any rate.) I don't need it to prove my point. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.02 18:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:
You're misinformed about the mechanics of nullsec mining.
I am not, i used to run quite a few mining ops in 0.0.
You can run mining ops while still being dangerously misinformed about how things actually work.
Mining in RELIC sites? Really?
The entire crux of your argument is that people should engage in hideously sub-optimal money making strategies to produce a pittance of the materials needed while simultaneously hitting their heads against the brick wall that is the literal game mechanics of Eve: Online, instead of adding a very small concession to highsec to ease the movement of minerals throughout the market. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.02 19:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Grace Chang wrote: You are entitled to your opinion. So am I to mine:
people are entitled to their own opinion you seem to believe you are entitled to your own facts The facts are these: Nobody has an issue with the compression but the few capital producers in 0.0 who want to acquire minerals at pre-crius prices and volumes. Not a big issue at all. Price isn't an issue for us. We'll gladly pay a premium for ore, especially considering we get 20% more minerals out of it compared to highsec. The issue is SUPPLY. There isn't enough supply. This is due to uninformed highsec miners continuing with their eleven years' habit of reprocessing their ore before moving it to market.
Supply and price are NOT the same thing. They're related, but not directly.
Education does not help end-users. My time spent in focus groups at my real life job has taught me that no amount of education can ever truly help users. The onus is on the developers to aid the user at all costs. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.02 19:37:00 -
[10] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote: As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
"Don't worry, all you need is 13 capital-capable accounts and a titan and you don't have to worry about the change" This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.02 19:48:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: As the single largest PL ore user in Drones, I can tell you unequivocally that is NOT true. I buy 50-70 bil a week in Jita and usually less than 5 bil in drones - mostly high ends so I don't have to import them
The big problem is logistics - if you ain't got them, you are hurting
I run 12 freighters and even a Titan only requires a few trips to the old POS to compress
This patch was about getting together and then costs driving us apart, we are starting to see this and teetering on the knife edge is what is going to drive industry
If you get cut, then I suggest you rethink your strategy
"Don't worry, all you need is 13 capital-capable accounts and a titan and you don't have to worry about the change" 23 accounts, several more inactive, several titans and almost every account is capital capable so, yeah, I'm good You'll have to excuse me for suggesting that the game not be balanced on your particular fulcrum. :V This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.02 20:09:00 -
[12] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:You'll have to excuse me for suggesting that the game not be balanced on your particular fulcrum. :V No worries m8, CCP did it for you Thus, the point of the thread -- to provide an alternative to such ridiculousness. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.02 20:50:00 -
[13] - Quote
mup Deninard wrote:one of the main things i have noticed is that people are saying that there is not enough supply of compressed ore. the main reason for this is that many small mining gangs don't have access to compression arrays. they either don't want the hassle of setting up a pos or if they have access it costs them a large chunk of their margin. refining was the old compression and all the miner had to do was pay for transport (at most) now it is compression and transport. if you want this fixed then either show that it is easy to set up a pos (and not too expensive) or ask ccp to do the unthinkable and allow the last non combat capital access to hisec ( or allow orcas to compress). with the ship option it would not take long for the compressed ore to flow to jita in large qauntities. even small gangs could see the sense of getting a rorqual and then ccp would actually see rorquals in a belt. obviously most small gangs already have orcas.
Giving the orca the ability to compress is something I've thought about. I'd still prefer station compression, but this would also be a compromise that would be acceptable. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.02 20:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
For those worried that allowing the orca to compress would (further) step on the rorqual's toes, fear not -- CCP has stated that the rorqual is next in line for rebalancing. Given the previous track record, I'm putting pretty good odds on a significant curve ball for the rorqual that will set it apart. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.02 21:24:00 -
[15] - Quote
Oddly enough, education is the idea of my second point -- putting UI hints in the reprocessing dialog to point towards compression (of any form) does a darn sight better at educating than speaking to individual miners. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2014.09.03 05:04:00 -
[16] - Quote
Shoogie wrote:This thread seems to have devolved into two camps yelling at each other.
The OP and others (most of whom seem to have the Goonswarm tag) saying that this is a huge problem that needs to be fixed. Compression needs to be made as simple as possible, because high-sec miners are too stupid to do anything that takes more steps than click->refine. Also, we just got 20% better refineries than high sec, which means our minerals should be 25% cheaper than theirs.
This is a pretty unfair representation of my stance. I don't think highsec miners are stupid; they're just fighting against 11 years of learned behavior. That stuff doesn't change overnight for anyone, regardless of their preferred home.
People are also harping on ore price -- I confess to not understand this point. Nowhere in my posts have I said that we want compressed ore to have no value-add or that we want it to be cheap. We just want it to be available, period. There is a huge supply deficit that hasn't been made up, and that is my concern. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 06:02:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:You are talking about 400k of low ends being Nocx? No -- I meant the Omber. Nocx is a highend, and is cratering. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 06:32:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Querns wrote:[quote=Kusum Fawn]You are talking about 400k of low ends being Nocx? in order to get 400k units of omber (240 000 m/3) you need to mulch through 6 825 000 m/3 of more valuable ores both by mineral content and isk values ? You need to mulch through the 6.8 million m^3 of other stuff to get the anomaly to respawn. That's the issue -- nullsec can't just magick up a particular type of ore that it needs; it's forced to mine a bunch of unusable garbage in order to get the right mineral compositions to build basically anything.
This is sort of off topic, however; there's another thread at https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=370404 specifically about nullsec mining site compositions. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 17:27:00 -
[19] - Quote
Prophet Tier wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Prophet Tier wrote: No, this is a bad idea. This would completely remove a player activity (running a pos and compressing). The functionality exists, adjust your prices and the demand will be filled by "pubbies."
this is no more meaningful gameplay than creating standings corps was it's a mindless move thing from point a to point b, in a way that creates no interesting gameplay for anyone. Yet alliances exist to facilitate this exact thing. See Red Frog and Push X. If it's boring to you, then don't do it. The interesting gameplay is that it creates an environment for freighter ganking which you, as a goon, should appreciate. Dry your eyes, little goon, and HTFU. Ah, yes, the vaunted courier contract to a POS. Please, elucidate on how you hire Red Frog and PushX to deliver materiel to your POS. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 21:09:00 -
[20] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:
I would suggest that you actually go to nullsec and mine from a null belt before basing your argument on this statement. Belts in null are not at all like belts in highsec, and the low end roids pop in as little as one cycle. Additionally, these are still "top heavy", so we'd still have a surplus of high ends. So, no, you are incorrect.
Prove it. Hard numbers across hundreds of belts. Both Null & High. Till then, your talking hot air with fumes. The Bloodtears, probably the most experienced nullsec miners that I know, repeatedly assert that nullsec asteroid belts have minuscule amounts of ore. Check the Bloodtear Industry Report if you don't believe me. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 21:24:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: The Bloodtears, probably the most experienced nullsec miners that I know, repeatedly assert that nullsec asteroid belts have minuscule amounts of ore. Check the Bloodtear Industry Report if you don't believe me.
Link, and Link to their high sec report also? Since High sec belts don't have that much ore either. http://dl.eve-files.com/media/1205/Bloodtear_Industy_Index_Report_v3.pdf This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 22:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:So, you mean the report that contains NO information on the standard asteroid belts in every system... That report... That only contains data on the infinitely respawning belts which are NOT what I was talking about. Well done. I mean, I get that you are trying to assert that without spurious evidence, that which would take weeks, if not months to collect, we can't argue a point. Fortunately for us, however, we can rely on the words of credible experts to not have to repeat this unnecessary work. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 22:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: I mean, I get that you are trying to assert that without spurious evidence, that which would take weeks, if not months to collect, we can't argue a point. Fortunately for us, however, we can rely on the words of credible experts to not have to repeat this unnecessary work.
Except those 'experts' are using extremely old data, and never did a comparison between Null Asteroid Belts & High Asteroid Belts, and did all their 'expert work' at a time when ABC ores were worth significantly more than low end ores. So didn't bother to do a proper analysis as they were talking about how to get industry index up to get at the profitable large & extremely large belts. Not about the relative amounts of ore between Null & High belts. So I stand by what I said. Null has 3-4 times the available volume of low end ore that high sec does, without counting the infinite belts. Even if we assume the belts don't get any better for being in Null Sec.
Nullsec asteroid belts haven't been changed in at least four years, probably more. I can only speak to that which I've seen. Given that the Bloodtear guide is younger than that, I'm inclined to believe their assessment that nullsec asteroid belts, while containing a number of asteroids, contain very, very small quantities of ore inside those asteroids. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 22:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Nullsec asteroid belts haven't been changed in at least four years, probably more. I can only speak to that which I've seen. Given that the Bloodtear guide is younger than that, I'm inclined to believe their assessment that nullsec asteroid belts, while containing a number of asteroids, contain very, very small quantities of ore inside those asteroids.
Relative to the size of the asteroids in the hidden belts. Almost certainly. However that says nothing about the quantity of those asteroids relative to high sec belts. Which are known to also pop fairly fast. Hence why a relative comparison to very large hidden belt roids is useless for a Null vs High comparison. You could grab a scanner, jump out to a belt and do a quick look see of course. It won't give reliable figures, but it will give a basic idea. Nah. I trust the Bloodtears. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 22:46:00 -
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Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Nah. I trust the Bloodtears.
So rather than look to see if relative values have changed due to a massive meta shift, you will instead cry about how the system should change to help you out more.... Well, that is about what I expected to be honest. Yep, sure -- that is accurate. I trust you'll be exiting the conversation now -- cheers! This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 22:59:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: Yep, sure -- that is accurate. I trust you'll be exiting the conversation now -- cheers!
Nope, I'm going to do what you Goons are too lazy to do, and see if I can obtain a snap shot, despite not living in Null, so not having any advantages of an intel Network like you do for safety in doing so. Because if you are right about relative sizes, I'm quite prepared to admit it, I just really don't believe you are. Have fun.
Here, I'll even offer a hint: Interceptor-class frigates, when fit properly, cannot be caught, making it laughably easy to travel to any nullsec system you want. I see your snide comment about magic, all-knowing intel channels and raise you actual game mechanics. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 23:10:00 -
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Nevyn Auscent wrote: Inti's however, do not make it easy to sit in a belt and scan because it involves sitting still on a grid for a bit as you have a range limit. Not simply dashing from gate to gate. Cloakies however work almost as well, and better for staying on the same grid for a while
Understanding the relevant game mechanics is even better than simply dropping a random mechanic and pretending you know everything. Snap to come once I've formatted.
Use the orbit key to keep moving. Alternatively, find a belt that has no rats in it. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 23:20:00 -
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Prophet Tier wrote:I hope you realize that for a goon it's not about who's right or wrong. He's going to be a petulant child regardless. Ah, throwing stones in glass houses, I see. I just posted the adjunct thread as I was asked; I didn't leap upon the thread with multiple alts in a hamfisted attempt to protect my nascent industry. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.03 23:50:00 -
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Nevyn Auscent wrote:Nex Killer wrote: So my question is why do you big nullsec alliances need so much compressed ore from highsec when you have endless amounts of it in the systems you control? See those really big numbers for how many archons worth of the high ends they mine. That's why. They import low ends to balance out that so they don't have to export a million high ends. However the static belts have all the low ends they need. They just have to adjust to actually mining static belts while the ore prices are the way they are now. And go back to the anoms when high end prices rise again. You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to.
Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.04 00:06:00 -
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Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: You've got a pretty funny idea of how many belts any given nullsec dweller has access to.
Why don't you tell me -- right now, how many belts could I potentially mine?
Goons own what.... 200ish systems last I looked don't they as an alliance? So probably about 1500-2000 belts. Wrong -- I only have access to Deklein. All other regions are owned by allies or are renter systems, which are off-limits to me and mine.
Some SQL helps us quantify this:
Eve Static Data Export wrote: sqlite> select regionID from mapRegions where regionName = "Deklein"; 10000035 sqlite> select typeID, typeName FROM invTypes WHERE typeName LIKE "%Asteroid Belt%"; 15|Asteroid Belt sqlite> select count(*) from mapDenormalize WHERE regionID = 10000035 AND typeID = 15; 710
That's 710 belts. Let's mine out, say, all the veldspar from all of these belts. That gives us 463,019,400 units of veldspar. Reprocessing all of this veldspar gives you 1,921,530,510 trit at (an impossible) 100% refine. Multiplying this by the best possible refine in nullsec (86.83%) and pretending refinery taxes don't exist, that is 1,668,464,942 trit for the entire output of all the veldspar. Now, let's triple that, because three variants of veldspar exist (and I'm too lazy to do them individually; this figure is a bit higher than reality.) That gives us 5,005,394,825 units of trit. Using http://eve-industry.org/calc/ to eyeball the cost of an avatar puts us at 3,745,571,923 tritanium, which means, if we ruthlessly exploit every scrap of trit in an asteroid belt that we have access to, we can build 1.74 titans a day.
However, we have dozens of titan producers. Plus, there are supercarriers, capital ships, and mass numbers of battleships that have to be produced. Suffice it to say -- asteroid belts cannot sate our needs. War in TYOOL 2014 requires more mineral resources than we can mine locally. This is simply the facts of life. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.04 00:15:00 -
[31] - Quote
Nex Killer wrote: A small asteroid cluster is a anomaly created from the Infrastructure upgrades "Ore Prospecting" and once it is mined out a new one within seconds respawns. So to answer your question with with one system you have infinite amount of asteroid clusters to mine and means you have infinite resources. By you just asking that question goes to show you have little to no knowledge of how mining works and what nullsec mining has to offer and you shouldn't be giving any input on how compressing should work because you don't put in the work to do the mining. I'm not trying to be Grr Goon just putting the right facts out there, so that people don't get miss leaded.
"Infinite" is still bound by the amount of time one is able to devote towards a given task. The number of useless highends contained in these sites in proportion to the lowends we lack puts huge speed bumps in acquiring the minerals you need to build, regardless of the rapacity at which you plunder these sites. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 00:18:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nex Killer wrote: So the problem isn't with compressing then. The real problem is with what roids are within nullsec. So why ask CCP to change compressing and not ask them to add in more Plagioclase, Gneiss or Kernite to nullsec to fix the mex and low end mineral problem? You guys have your own CSM member on the team, so why not ask them to bring that up within one of the meetings? If CCP changed that then compressing how it is doesn't need to change.
No one said compression was at fault -- the entire point of my OP post is to give it a shot in the arm to increase the ability for highsec to market its wares. This whole "just mine it yourselves" tangent that gets pulled out every time nullsec dares to agitate for its own good has remarkably little to do with the thread's purpose. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 00:23:00 -
[33] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Sorry.... remind me how many titans you loose a day? In fact how many titans have been lost across EVE this year, which has had the bloodiest titan battle ever that isn't likely to be repeated unless the goons have a civil war between titan pilots since no-one else has that kind of resources any more.
Somebody doesn't understand the concept of an arms race. :V
Quote: And remind me why you couldn't buy the ore from the renters (Which I understand aren't allowed to build their own titans)
We don't force our renters to make money in any particular way. We're not slavers. Our renters aren't allowed to build titans because there are no feasible ways to ensure that said titans do not end up in the hands of our enemies. Again, arms race.
Quote: Also, remind me why you didn't count any of the trit from the other ores in those belts. That's 1.74 Titans from JUST THE VELD! Most of those other ores also have Trit in them.
If you wanna do the math on that, feel free. Our needs will still outstrip our ability to supply.
Quote: And more relevant to this thread, they are also higher value, and by mining them you'll also make high ends worth more again. Which is the real point, it's Nulls own fault that high ends are worth so little because they don't make use of the other ores available to them.
This is a decent attempt at a coherent thought.
Quote:I think we have found the issue though, it's called living beyond your means and unrealistic expectations. Mountains out of molehills. All I want is for compression to be more ubiquitous. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 00:23:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: No one said compression was at fault -- the entire point of my OP post is to give it a shot in the arm to increase the ability for highsec to market its wares. This whole "just mine it yourselves" tangent that gets pulled out every time nullsec dares to agitate for its own good has remarkably little to do with the thread's purpose.
That's because the thread wasn't about high sec marketing it's wares. It was about Null saying they NEEDED to buy from highsec. On the topic of High Sec marketing it's wares, why exactly are you trying to destroy a natural force CCP have introduced to encourage corps to grow in high sec and to actually keep towers up during war decs? One would have thought you would love the idea of High Sec corps actually growing and having things at risk during a war dec by being large enough to make efficient and constant use of a tower. You're reaching. Considerably. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.04 00:30:00 -
[35] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Querns wrote: You're reaching. Considerably.
No, I'm really not. All your arguments have boiled down to 'Goons want stuff with no effort to themselves'. I've even produced numbers to back my case, and the Ore compression is showing a natural influence to encourage corp growth. With Corp & POS management slated for before the end of the year, that will help alleviate a lot of the theft issues people get scared by as well and continue that trend of actually creating reasons for high sec people to corp together.
You're constructing a contrived vignette with very little basis in reality.
Quote: Your proposal however will remove a reason to bother with a tower just so Null can buy more ore to keep the arms race (against who exactly, highsec? You already have a blue doughnut). Without letting natural EVE market forces work. You are trying to force people down a path, rather than let gameplay emerge
You are speaking of a political landscape you do not understand. Not surprising, given your repeated use of memes such as "blue doughnut" and "intel channels." This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 00:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Bella Sprout wrote:550 cycles of an XL belt will produce the same amount of veld as all 710 belts in the region. Now tell me how long to mine that Veld vs how long to cycle 550 XL Belts. I don't even have to run the numbers to know cycling those XL belts will be vastly longer than mining said static belts for Veld. And you don't have to try and hold an Industry level to mine the static belts either. As for you Querns. Yes, it's all in our imagination, Goons are really beset with enemies from all sides. This is why the number of Null entities has steadily decreased as any enemy of the goons has suffered coincidental 'accidents' like missed Sov bills when the goons co-incidentally had their titan fleet ready to go despite the other side having more total titans, alliance wallet thefts... and other such 'accidents'. And why the political map has stabilised into a few huge entities, which have an agreement between each other. Yes, it's all my imagination and you are really loosing super caps constantly and that there is no such thing as an intel channel either. For someone who is constantly demanding hard evidence, you sure are willing to use poorly-conceived mental shortcuts when you drift out of your element.
Hint: you are out of your element. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 00:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
Pookoko wrote:Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:Pookoko wrote:I don't understand why some 'small corp' thinks having a POS is out of their scope. My first POS in New Eden was anchored by our two-men corp (with no alts). And back then we had to grind faction standings all the way to have a high-sec POS, which took a lot of effort. Also it was way before the fuel blocks were introduced and filling up POS fuel was real PITA.
Now POS can be anchored anywhere in high-sec with no standing requirement. Now there is convenience of fuel block. Now there are advantages of manufacturing at high-sec POS. Now you can even compress ores to make even more profit - and heck, compression is instant and doesn't require any BPC.
It is already SO EASY now to have a high-sec POS and compress ores. Just anchor a freaking POS and be done with it. I don't think the problem is that it's hard; it's just not cost-effective. Running a small 24x7 POS in hisec will run you ~6M ISK per day (fuel blocks + charters). You can save ISK if you only online it when you need it, but that's not always possible and anyway, it's a pain logistically. Now, 6M ISK isn't that much for bigger corps, but for smaller corps that's a non-trivial amount of ISK to spend every day. At minimum, you have to bring in enough ISK to make the POS worthwhile -- so you need to make more than 6M ISK per day in your efforts. But yes, running a POS now is way, way easier to do now. The standings requirements alone were a huge pain to grind up before, which is why many industrialists didn't bother. But now, if you can afford the 6M or so ISK cost each day, they're a no-brainer. However, there is a caveat: I think (and hope) that POS's are not long for the world. If the mobile modules are the wave of the future, I hope CCP will create a Mobile Ore Compression module so you can compress your ore right in the belt. I'm hesitant to build up a large logistics chain around POS's for just this reason. In a way I see your point, and the other poster who mentioned that it takes time to recoup the investment. Especially if you are a solo miner, like many people are, then it may be easier not to have a POS. But this is only if you consider using POS exclusively for compression. If you are a small corp with even just a few industrialists, then there is a lot of benefit to be had by having a POS. What I meant was that a) POS is now easier to anchor & keep than ever before, b) now there is ADDED bonus of compression. I do agree that having POS JUST for compression is a hassle unless you intend to do serious amount of compressing. I was just pointing out that many opportunities exist with POS, and these opportunities are more readily available now, and it is up to players to make use of them for their own benefit. Having said that though, mobile compression module is an interesting idea, if other players can steal from it like flipping a can, which will generate new possibilities too. Come to think about it, I like this idea much more than high-sec station compressing. What I'm against is that station compression is instant profit with no game play. Having a POS can be good, but like some others mentioned it's also a risk in a way because your asset is in space - i.e. it can be attacked or messed with by other players. Station compression automatically increase the value of your ores with no risk or game play attached. So a mobile module where there is some element of risk and vulnerability while compressing ore in space would be something that gives a choice of risk (albeit minor) vs. reward. If we are going to do Orca compression, there should be some element of risk/vulnerability for this activity too (maybe something like Orca's resist profile goes down during compression 'siege mod' so it becomes more gankable?) These are interesting thoughts. I think just the bog-standard siege mechanic already in place for the Industrial Core would suffice, to start -- being frozen in the belt in highsec makes you vulnerable to suicide gank. If it was deemed too "safe," additional concessions could be added after subsequent patches. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.04 15:49:00 -
[38] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote: Kind of a catch-22
I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part
This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine.
Oh...
Oh. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 15:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.04 16:10:00 -
[40] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote: Kind of a catch-22
I have had the popcorn out for almost a month and I am just now getting to the good part
This explains why you were screaming on these very forums a mere three weeks ago begging people to compress instead of refine. Oh... Oh. Some attempts at education were more hostile than others, some more subtle In the end it has worked it self out No matter what, in the end, I am only hated by half the blue donut, not by hi sec miners I haven't even remotely slowed production, matter of fact, it has kind of increased. Teams have lowered overall prices and business is good. Hulkageddon, burn jita, Ice interdiction and luv squad aren't helping you much in the quest for ore huh? I can't imagine how much pride was swallowed along with alot of other things to allow renters, now you have to go to the pubbies and get ore instead of ganking HOLY FULL CIRCLE Batman I always like these "goons have screwed themselves out of the highsec market" posts because they fly in full ignorance of the concept of neutral alts. This isn't really a new concept -- as the largest corporation in the game, and one of the most vilified, any Goonswarm Federation member you can shake an Ishtar at has a neutral alt for conducting business in empire, due to our repeated, sustained wardecs. If we need to do business with basically anyone, we do it via these neutral alts to avoid wardecs and our own reputation. Who's to say we aren't doing what you're doing already?
And, yes, before you ask, I want station compression despite this. Cutting off your nose to spite your face is romantic and all, but it's, frankly, kinda stupid. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 16:42:00 -
[41] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Querns wrote:I updated the OP with the Orca idea. I think that it's a very decent compromise. Not a fan, really. It pretty much makes the compression POS module pointless. (In case people think I'm just being negative, I'm looking for arguments why that's not the case, or why it's not an important case. Consider me a devil's advocate) I respect that. Don't worry about it -- I can tell the difference between differing opinions and antagonism. :)
Allowing the orca to compress moves the compression out of the starbase and into the (highsec) belt, where it can be disrupted (by bumping) and suicide ganked. An orca is also a sight more expensive than a small starbase -- you can run a starbase for several months before the orca is the cheaper option, and this doesn't include offlining the starbase to conserve fuel when you aren't using its services. The orca is also significantly more skill-intensive than a starbase -- starbases require Anchoring III and an orca requires several months of training. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Querns
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Posted - 2014.09.04 16:57:00 -
[42] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Well, /sitting/ in an orca is now, iirc about 17 days. That is a point though. It'd be interesting if you need the ore processing skills at some level to be able to compress it. Though that may be a degree of complexity which is taking it too far. One thing it would do is /massively/ increase linger time in highsec belts, as there'd be next to no need to offload the ore. An orca would be able to hold the equivalent of 50 million units of Veld in just its ore bay. Eh, yeah, true -- I was looking at one of my EFT plans, which was, hilariously enough, for an orca with links and decent drone skills. :V
Don't forget that the Industrial Core has its own skill requirements (about two weeks worth) and consumes Heavy Water during every siege cycle. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 17:15:00 -
[43] - Quote
Grace Chang wrote:So, after it has been pretty much established that exactly nobody, just goons, wants to change compression - any bets it is going to change? There were folks in the thread that weren't goons who approved of the idea.
You're mistaking a volume of posts by a minority of people as "nobody." This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 18:04:00 -
[44] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote: I read that and simply didn't care. But let me recap for you since you can't seem to read either....all of that should have been thought of before you cried to CCP to get the system changed. We get it, Goons can't get enough low end ore. It isn't that we don't understand the problem, the way the game works or anything else, it is that we don't care. You guys approved of these changes and made troll post after troll post on this very forum about how high sec folks were going to break their backs for you. Now that things aren't working out, you expect us to care. We don't. No one really does except for you and your five forum alts.
How, exactly, did we "cry to CCP to get the system changed" in the first place? Changing compression wasn't our idea. It hit us pretty much out of left field, actually. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 18:09:00 -
[45] - Quote
Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 18:50:00 -
[46] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. So, should no man in Eve: Online, a spaceship game, ever deign to attempt to better their own position in this manner? How deep does the cognitive dissonance run? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 19:12:00 -
[47] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Yes exactly. The most powerful players should in fact only propose ideas that challenge their position. Maybe its something people will figure out before subs drop another 25%. This is a pretty hilarious concept. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 20:49:00 -
[48] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote:Mr Omniblivion wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. Asking for changes that make it easier for high sec miners to get their ore to market at a higher price than the refined minerals sure is selfish of us. How noble of you to ask for something that means the price of compressed ore goes down, profit margins fall and you get cheaper ore. Plenty of ore gets to market right now, you just don't want to pay people for their time to get it there. Your understanding of supply is laughably naive. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 20:51:00 -
[49] - Quote
Sentamon wrote: You can assume they're having financial difficulties, hence the need to cry to CCP and highsec miners for help.
Ah, yes -- the mark of one who is completely outside of their ability to participate in a debate -- deriding the individuals so debating as "crying." This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:12:00 -
[50] - Quote
GreasyCarl Semah wrote: Yet my comment about the supply of compressed ore in Jita stands.
Not really.
Imagine the total output of all mining in eve in one bag. A percentage of this ore is compressed and sold, either on the market or privately. A second percentage is sold raw, both on the market and privately. The third -- and I really need you to pay attention because this is the important part -- does not hit the market at all; it gets refined in place and ends up as useless minerals.
That third part is the part I want to convert to either of the first two parts. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:18:00 -
[51] - Quote
Drago Shouna wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Sentamon wrote:Querns wrote:Also, is asking for any change "crying," or is it only changes you don't agree with? Yes. Asking for changes that directly benefit you is infact crying. all changes that make EVE Online a better game benefit us because as the Overmen we will maintain our position of dominance regardless of the changes, but the better the game is the more we enjoy playing it in addition to the enjoyment we always get of being gods among cattle Aaand you just made my mind up..I was about to buy a pos and array. But there is no way i'm going to compress and sell to you lot now. I'll take the minute hit in lost revenue (and a lot less hassle) cheers. Isn't there a song about true colours? If not there should be. Enjoy your tedium.
If it's any consolation, even if you were selling compressed ore, there'd be no way for you to know if you were selling it to us or not. Neutral alts are magical. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:21:00 -
[52] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Has it crossed your minds that some people have gone out and found large mining corps and made direct deals with them, totally cut Jita out of the loop?
In that sense, yes, the ore is not coming to the JITA market, but it is getting mined and sold/bought.
I get roughly a titans worth of minerals every 3 days with NO TROUBLES, NONE, zero, zilch
Again, you can't sit in Jita and whine, you have to go out there and get it.
This patch was just a way for me to test a theory and it has paid off for me big time, you are lazy and unimaginative, you will wither and die in Jita. Maybe I'll bring some ore by later and fill a few buy orders and give you a thrill! You misunderstand -- we're just as capable of doing this as you are. Remember -- neutral alts. We just also want the process to be easier overall. We can do both; it's okay. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to want things to be easier. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:22:00 -
[53] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Every highsec miner needs to read this thread. You can bet the vast majority will do the same. Heh -- if highsec miners read the forums, they'd know to compress in the first place. The whole point of my ideas is to reach people who don't read the forums. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 21:32:00 -
[54] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Querns wrote: You misunderstand -- we're just as capable of doing this as you are. Remember -- neutral alts. We just also want the process to be easier overall. We can do both; it's okay. It doesn't make you a hypocrite to want things to be easier.
My goal is to FORCE you to do this Cutting off your nose to spite your face, eh? This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.04 22:27:00 -
[55] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Hmmm .. risk multi-billion isk freighters hauling Ore to Jita
Nope ... sorry ... not happening. Public courier contracts have collateral options, allowing you to diversify hauling risk.
I think the 50%+ margin people in this thread seem entitled to having will cover a few million isk spent on courier fees. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.05 15:16:00 -
[56] - Quote
Tolkaz Khamsi wrote:I'll say it again: give me a Mobile Compression Unit that I can drop in a belt and compress as I mine. Problem solved.
I like this idea too -- the limitations on the new mobile structures mean that a mobile compression unit would only work for the pilot that dropped it, making it ideal for smaller-time miners (not to mention that you typically cannot have more than one mobile structure anchored in a short radius.) Miners who are more organized or who are more affluent can use a POS or an orca, providing a clear "upgrade path" for compression. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.05 21:35:00 -
[57] - Quote
Valedictio wrote:Something for you to think about, Q. How much Kernite do you think is available in Caldari Space ?
A. NONE, Try 0.7 or lower Amarr and Minmater Space is where you will find it
This is a cute argument and all, but there is no Kernite in Amarr, Rens, or Hek at all. Please insert new argument and catchphrases, and try again. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Posted - 2014.09.05 21:45:00 -
[58] - Quote
Also, trying to paint Niarja as some impenetrable barrier which no freighter shall pass is also extremely cute. Let's look at recent freighter deaths in Niarja. Oh, my. Look at barely one freighter killed a day, with periods of up to a week between freighter deaths. Now, how much traffic goes through Niarja on a daily basis? Thousands of ships a day. Let's pretend that one in ten of those is a freighter. That is putting you at less than a 1% chance of dying, discounting tactics like tanking your freighter, limiting your hauled value, and using public courier contracts to diversify risk. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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