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PvP is not Grief play: Discuss and define each

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DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:46:00 - [1] Many want to call any PvP griefing, but most of us know it isn't so. Seeing the recent increase of what some call griefing, I wondered how others see it. Grief play is? PvP is? The hope is to get CCP to take note on what the playerbase defines as both, so please keep it polite and constructive to that end.(That means flamers and trollers can go somehwere else thank you) To me, "grief play" is to cause others gaming time ruined for no other reason then to ruin their gaming. I could also include the use of "exploits" (even those not acknowledged by CCP, yet). PvP is the actual fighting/warfare one does. grab a cup of java, think and ponder these things, then post what YOU think. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
Ikvar Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:49:00 - [2] Wow, I thought you'd dissapeared? Anyway, say no flames or not, you asking this question again is going to cause a massive flame war like it always does.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:50:00 - [3] EvE is grief. ---------------- RecruitMe@NOINT!
Vanlade Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:51:00 - [4] Grief play is to get our playing enjoyment out from ruining the enjoyment of others. PvP is obtaining enjoyment from fighting other players. Not the same. Quality over Equality
Crumplecorn Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:52:00 - [5] Griefing is in the intent, not in the actions. Few actions can specifically be demarked as only being griefing or never being griefing. True griefing is rare in Eve, and all the reports of griefing on the forum I have seen aren't. ----------
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:52:00 - [6] IMO... Griefing is any combat that was not mutually entered into. Example, any suicide gank in empire. Example, Lofty and his craptastic tactics. Sniper gate camps in low sec are also grief play IMO. PVP: is any mutually agreed apun combat. By mutually agreed I mean you are both in combat ships, in 0.0 space and are there solely for the purpose of engaging in combat. This includes hanging arond a station system looking for ganks. Can include ganking haulers and miners if they are foolish enought to operate with enemies in their turf. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
HappyKitten Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:53:00 - [7] Anything whereby you get no personal gain but to ruin another's play is griefing. This is not necessarily a bad thing. Hiring mercenaries for vengeance is an example. Anything else is PvP, exploits included. If you are exploiting for personal gain, it's exploiting (and thus bannable), but it still isn't griefing.
Crumplecorn Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:54:00 - [8] Originally by: Locke DieDrake PVP: is any mutually agreed apun combat. By mutually agreed I mean you are both in combat ships, in 0.0 space and are there solely for the purpose of engaging in combat. Are you playing the same game as the rest of us? ----------
Wrayth Osu Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:54:00 - [9] Originally by: Vanlade Grief play is to get our playing enjoyment out from ruining the enjoyment of others. PvP is obtaining enjoyment from fighting other players. Not the same. /agreed ____________________________________________________________________ Wrayth - "These are not the carebears you are looking for." Pirate - "These are not the carebears we are looking for."
Malthros Zenobia Caldari Independent Navy Reserve Kimotoro Directive	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:57:00 - [10] Clearly anything that impeeds my fun is griefing. On a serious note, standard pvp is not 'griefing'. Griefing is going out of your way to ruin the game for others, just because you can.
Vanlade Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.31 18:58:00 - [11] Originally by: Locke DieDrake IMO... Griefing is any combat that was not mutually entered into. Example, any suicide gank in empire. Example, Lofty and his craptastic tactics. Sniper gate camps in low sec are also grief play IMO. PVP: is any mutually agreed apun combat. By mutually agreed I mean you are both in combat ships, in 0.0 space and are there solely for the purpose of engaging in combat. This includes hanging arond a station system looking for ganks. Can include ganking haulers and miners if they are foolish enought to operate with enemies in their turf. I disagree. Suicide gank made in empire for the sake of profit is not grief play. But suicide gank for the sake of ruining others is. Quality over Equality
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:01:00 - [12] Originally by: Ikvar Wow, I thought you'd dissapeared? Anyway, say no flames or not, you asking this question again is going to cause a massive flame war like it always does. gee, you missed me, I feel so wuved. Thread looks to be doing what I hoped, keep it up players. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
HappyKitten Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:02:00 - [13] Originally by: Vanlade Originally by: Locke DieDrake IMO... Griefing is any combat that was not mutually entered into. Example, any suicide gank in empire. Example, Lofty and his craptastic tactics. Sniper gate camps in low sec are also grief play IMO. PVP: is any mutually agreed apun combat. By mutually agreed I mean you are both in combat ships, in 0.0 space and are there solely for the purpose of engaging in combat. This includes hanging arond a station system looking for ganks. Can include ganking haulers and miners if they are foolish enought to operate with enemies in their turf. I disagree. Suicide gank made in empire for the sake of profit is not grief play. But suicide gank for the sake of ruining others is. For example, popping a hauler with a bil of stuff in is nowhere near griefing. The attacker doesn't give a **** how the victim feels, he just wants their stuff. Podding the hauler pilot afterwards is pure grief, and hilarious.
Kynoch	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:03:00 - [14] Griefing is a misnomer I think. PVP seems to be all about the killmail for the most part and bragging rights. Some people go about it with an 'everything goes" approach and play the "Bad guys" which is a necessary role that I enjoy about the game. Its not my style though. What gets me is that when people play the "bad" side of the game they get all ****ed when people actually get mad at them and talk smack when they take possibly weeks of work away from them by popping their ships and podding them etc. They should expect some comments about the incident and shrug it off.
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:04:00 - [15] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Locke DieDrake PVP: is any mutually agreed apun combat. By mutually agreed I mean you are both in combat ships, in 0.0 space and are there solely for the purpose of engaging in combat. Are you playing the same game as the rest of us? Nope. The rest of you, or at least the great majority, have never been where I've been, never seen what I've seen, and never engagned in combat on the scale that I have. That being said, there are many 0.0 alliances that know what PVP is. Goons as a recent example. (good fights guys) As an opposite example, burn eden has been attempting to gank in the dek area recently, and SSing and logging out anytime a gang begins to hunt them. This is not PVP, it's greifing. It's one thing to avoid a fight you can't win. It's another to avoid a fight at all and only shoot at soft targets. But I'm not dillusional. And I don't think the game should be changed to fit my opinion. At the end of the day, what I think of as griefing is a perfectly valid tactic. Harrasment has long been a part of war. That makes it no less griefing. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Shamis Orzoz SniggWaffe	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:04:00 - [16] I grief therefore I am.
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Vanlade Originally by: Locke DieDrake IMO... Griefing is any combat that was not mutually entered into. Example, any suicide gank in empire. Example, Lofty and his craptastic tactics. Sniper gate camps in low sec are also grief play IMO. PVP: is any mutually agreed apun combat. By mutually agreed I mean you are both in combat ships, in 0.0 space and are there solely for the purpose of engaging in combat. This includes hanging arond a station system looking for ganks. Can include ganking haulers and miners if they are foolish enought to operate with enemies in their turf. I disagree. Suicide gank made in empire for the sake of profit is not grief play. But suicide gank for the sake of ruining others is. Maybe if CCP added NPC corps for low sec players to be pushed into once their rating dropped too low, that could be war-dec'ed, others would feel they had a shot at justice? Just a thought. FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
HappyKitten Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:07:00 - [18] Originally by: Locke DieDrake At the end of the day, what I think of as griefing is a perfectly valid tactic. Harrasment has long been a part of war. That makes it no less griefing. However, it is not about how the other player feels. It is about personal profit, completely unrelated to the other player's feelings. The whole idea of griefing is that it is gameplay done for the PURPOSE of making another player sad. If that is a side effect, so be it, but it isn't griefing. Burn Eden really don't care how you feel, as long as they make their ISK.
Sidd Torginn	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:07:00 - [19] Originally by: HappyKitten Podding the hauler pilot afterwards is pure grief, and hilarious. Quote of the Year, tbh.
Doc Mephisto Gallente	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:12:00 - [20] Grief Play; Play with sole intent of ruining someone elses playing experience. PVP; Player combat with a valid in character justification, ie to defend teritory, settle an in game dispute, to make isk, roleplaying an anti-slavery activist. The only diffrence is the intent and unless someone is being harassed continualy by the same player i don't see how you could prove the intent.
dasdsadsadsacyx	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:19:00 - [21] Grief play is using illegitimate mechanisms or loopholes, like making gang invites to kill your enemy or purposefully replacing ore cans with your own to get kill rights. Everything else is legitimate PvP, everybody knows the danger and there is no such thing as unconsentuality in EvE. You play the game, you know you can get killed, you can take countermeasures.
Hydrian Alante The Loot Company	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:31:00 - [22] Yesterday I ganked a Ferox in a 0.4 belt with a friend (Raptor + Thorax). He wouldn¦t pay the ransom so we podkilled him. After the usual hate-talk he said that ccp lost 20bucks a month. Is this grief play? I think this isn¯t grief just plain and simple game mechanics.
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:31:00 - [23] Originally by: HappyKitten Originally by: Locke DieDrake At the end of the day, what I think of as griefing is a perfectly valid tactic. Harrasment has long been a part of war. That makes it no less griefing. However, it is not about how the other player feels. It is about personal profit, completely unrelated to the other player's feelings. The whole idea of griefing is that it is gameplay done for the PURPOSE of making another player sad. If that is a side effect, so be it, but it isn't griefing. Burn Eden really don't care how you feel, as long as they make their ISK. I thought you were banned? Care to link to the drama for me? I missed it. Anyway, to address your point. Defining griefing so narrowly is fine for the sake of setting up rules. But most of what i'm talking about is not profitable, nor is it really done for profit. Popping a hauler full of money is one thing. While this isn't strictly griefing, it is in fact creating grief for the hauler pilot. Understanding that distinction is required for the continuation of this discussion. While at the same time, camping a gate in enemy territory, and only engaging haulers and miners and logging off when combat ships start tracking you is in fact griefing. You can call it harrasment, but it goes beyond that. The distinction most of you like to make is "is it profitable?". But thats stupid. It makes no differance if it is or isn't. And since it's also not possible to judge someones intent, you also can't call this into evidence of griefing. So instead, I define griefing as non-consentual PVP. Makes it easy to understand. And it fits. I fell grief when I get a hauler toasted. And I feel like a griefer when I toast one. Sometimes though, thats a perfectly valid tactic against your enemy. And again, I don't see why this is a problem, or why it should be changed in any major way. Griefing is a valid tactic in war. And for criminals. It should be so in eve also, and is. The thing that seperates 0.0 and empire is that griefing in 0.0 is almost always a valid tactic to undermine your enemey. While in empire, it serves no purpose but to employ the hoards of people too cowardly to enter into a fair fight. ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
Aerith Saetas Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:32:00 - [24] Edited by: Aerith Saetas on 31/07/2006 19:34:22 Grief play is engaging someone when you stand to make no profit, and the person you are engaging cannot possibly defend themselves in any way/shape/or form. This is like gate sniping a 2 day old's Ibis on their first trip into Low-Sec. PvP on the other hand is when you A: Stand to make a profit from the kill... eg: Killing a hauler who is carrying minerals etc. or B: when the other person can fight back/is warned, or is just not being careful. In 0.0 it's open game. It's made for risk and reward. When entering 0.0 a pilot must always know he could lose his ship.
Vanlade Amarr	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:34:00 - [25] Originally by: Shamis Orzoz I grief therefore I am. :D Quality over Equality
Blind Man Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:36:00 - [26] I'm a griefer truuuuuuuuueeeee KILLROCK'S FORUM ASSISTANT
Locke DieDrake Port Royal Independent Kontractors Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:39:00 - [27] Originally by: Aerith Saetas Edited by: Aerith Saetas on 31/07/2006 19:34:22 Grief play is engaging someone when you stand to make no profit, and the person you are engaging cannot possibly defend themselves in any way/shape/or form. This is like gate sniping a 2 day old's Ibis on their first trip into Low-Sec. PvP on the other hand is when you A: Stand to make a profit from the kill... eg: Killing a hauler who is carrying minerals etc. or B: when the other person can fight back/is warned, or is just not being careful. In 0.0 it's open game. It's made for risk and reward. When entering 0.0 a pilot must always know he could lose his ship. So Example. I bet my friend 100m isk that I can kill 100 people in jita before down time. I put together 100 kessies of doom and start ganking nubs. It's profitable, or stands a chance of being profitable, so it's not griefing right?? ___________________________________________ The deeper you stick it in your vein, the deeper the thoughts there's no more pain. ___________________________________________
DukDodgerz	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:40:00 - [28] Originally by: Hydrian Alante Yesterday I ganked a Ferox in a 0.4 belt with a friend (Raptor + Thorax). He wouldn¦t pay the ransom so we podkilled him. After the usual hate-talk he said that ccp lost 20bucks a month. Is this grief play? I think this isn¯t grief just plain and simple game mechanics. sounds like good ol'pirating to me... pirates are good for eve. (and not grief play) FRODO HAS FAILED; BUSH HAS THE RING!!! The HippoKing spots a new post
CaosSpinner	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:53:00 - [29] Actually this is a simple answer understood by every other MMOG and every player that has played MOGs for any lenght of time. If you attack citizens your griefing. In EVE, any combat ship hitting any non combat ship is griefing. PVP (as far as combat) is combat ship vrs combat ship. Combat ship vrs non-combat ship (barges - haulers, ships not designed for combat) is pure griefing. This is no diffrent from having your warrior attack towns people or any unarmed player or NPC. Now a BS attacking a noob in a frig is Ganking still lame but not as lame as griefing. As far as the intent, grifers do not want a battle the want a free kill.
HappyKitten Caldari	Posted - 2006.07.31 19:54:00 - [30] Originally by: Locke DieDrake Originally by: Aerith Saetas Edited by: Aerith Saetas on 31/07/2006 19:34:22 Grief play is engaging someone when you stand to make no profit, and the person you are engaging cannot possibly defend themselves in any way/shape/or form. This is like gate sniping a 2 day old's Ibis on their first trip into Low-Sec. PvP on the other hand is when you A: Stand to make a profit from the kill... eg: Killing a hauler who is carrying minerals etc. or B: when the other person can fight back/is warned, or is just not being careful. In 0.0 it's open game. It's made for risk and reward. When entering 0.0 a pilot must always know he could lose his ship. So Example. I bet my friend 100m isk that I can kill 100 people in jita before down time. I put together 100 kessies of doom and start ganking nubs. It's profitable, or stands a chance of being profitable, so it's not griefing right?? You are griefing: you lose money, and stand to make nothing. You just want people to die. Your friend is not griefing: he is ganking people because he has been paid to do it.

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