Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.

Attempts to bypass the game mechanics of starbase force-fields are fully visible in server logs to CCP GamesGÇÖ staff and will result in appropriate action taken against the involved user accounts as per the EVE Online Suspension and Ban Policy from here on.

CCP posted this exploit notification in June 2013: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-forcefield-access/

They stated:



Recently NCDOT may have bumped a titan out of a password protected force field without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings.

There are rumors that a senior GM stated that in NCDOT's case it wasn't an exploit because they used titans to bump it out which incurred "substantial risks." Obviously I'm not allowed to paste the alleged correspondence.

This is extremely concerning as if these rumors are true it could be seen as CCP employees favoring big power blocks over normal players. "It's an exploit if you do it but if a big power bloc does it with 16 titans it's not an exploit." Could the CSM please look in to this to make absolutely sure certain alliances aren't getting special treatment?

/popcorm

I think the issue isn't stuff bumping on cyno in, it's that a ship fully inside a POS shield is being bumped by ships that can not enter the POS.

Sure, but the exploit pilots were specifically doing it on purpose with special fits


Bumping on cyno is something pilots certainly have ZERO control over it

Jumping to a cyno is something pilots have 100% control over.
There is no reason to jump titans onto a cyno right next to the tower with a titan inside the shields except for bumping the titan out. I'd have no problem with you doing so if you have access to the force field, but without that access cynoing that close to the tower serves no other purpose than to use the exploit.

You really think people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the off chance there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them? While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic puts them at severe risk every time they cyno into a new system

Does anyone recall the details that resulted in the exploit notice from 2013? Regardless, mass is mass when launched at a pos shield whether by subcap or supercap. I'm still not surprised someone at CCP would rule entirely differently this time around. Following precedent is a difficult task.

No. I do not think that people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the "off chance" there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them.


What I really think is that people are going to monitor systems/poses in which they know titans to operate, so that if they see one near the edge and have a dozen or so titans handy, they can exploit and bump them. While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic ejects their own titan at several thousand meters per second, giving them very high odds that (whether or not they kill their prey) they can make a clean getaway and then go post strawmen arguments on the forums.

"because of this very particular hypothetical edge case, this exploit should not be considered an exploit"

this just reeks of desperation

hint: the exploit isn't jumping titans, it's not using a cyno, it's doing a combination of the two with the intent of bumping a ship out of a forcefield when the ship is entirely enclosed by the shields

I wasn't aware you needed a POS password to bump a giant object more than 15km long inside a shield and near the edge, with another 15+ km long object from outside of the shield that just cynoed in at minimum range to the shield at a well-chosen location.

Who cares about the password? You're spawning the titans close enough to the shield that they're still likely to get geometry inside it that will trigger the collision detection as soon as they move, which in turn will cause the supposedly 'safe' titan to go flying. You only need the password if the hostile titans don't want to get bounced by the shield.

I would think intent to be pretty easy to determine.

If you're not in the same alliance as the bumped titan, odds are the intent was hostile.

If you are in the same alliance as the bumped titan, odds are your cyno pilot is either a ******* moron that should be executed for incompetence, or is a spy.

It really isn't that difficult to move around to the other side of the shield where your supposedly friendly cyno won't bump anything inside the shield. Are we really trying to argue that people can't see the giant ******* titan on their screen? Because I don't think anyone's going to buy that argument.

If you DON'T have the password, it should be an exploit, full stop - and that's what the OP was on about, afaict.

so just make cynos not work within 50 or even 100km of a pos. the code for it should be there (hello mobile cyno inhibitor)

not sure why we need to make such a big wave out of this.

I'm not disagreeing that if you have the POS password, the appropriate response to the victim is "lol, welp, sucks to be you".

If you DON'T have the password, it should be an exploit, full stop - and that's what the OP was on about, afaict. The fact that you CAN knock **** out of a POS without having the password because the minimum cyno distance is close enough that a titan can jump in and still touch things on the inside of the shield.

My point still stands, though - if you, inside the POS shield, are getting bumped by large things being cynoed in, the odds of it being an accident are low, because you'd have to be incredibly stupid to set up a friendly cyno in a fashion that would do something like that.

UPDATE: We now have a sisi video of a titan being bumped out of a POS shields in a way that is supposedly not an exploit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oveOq2MQ4sA

I said that in my first post BTW

Yeap, that does not look very innocent. Looks like a bug to me.

Maybe CCP could fix the jump-in-code so it takes the size of the ship into account so no ship appears closer than 5km from the force field.

I fail to see what is the benefit in defending this tactic. To score easy kills on an already beaten and camped into npc region enemy? If you wanna bump a titan out get the password.

If you dont have a password then quit scouring regions endlessly looking for bridging titans and I dunno, lead a roam or go make war or something?

That is EXACTLY the point

I don't want to get banned for thinking I have the password, then cynoing in and finding out I don't have the password, the punishment for which is banning due to exploit.

Pretty harsh punishment for a spai being wrong


I'll leave this here as evidence, written by alot of the people here opposing this:

http://themittani.com/news/metagame-tactics-score-pl-titan-kill

Excerpt:
Enter the metagame. PL has a record of many POS passwords - one of which applied to the tower the BL Avatar was sitting in. Brave Machariel pilots entered the password and gained entry into the forcefield.


I realize this was different due to using bumping machariels (lowsec), but whether or not the password worked is the issue, this time it did, next time, we drop Titans and the password doesn't work, do all the Titans deserve a permaban for exploit?

Kind of a rough punishment for the offense is all I am saying

2. Create momentum for your own titans to warp off before any tackle comes.

The crux of the matter isnt the password because the certain someone who has been using this mechanic doesnt care if he has the password or not. Whenever we deploy near these guys his alt is in system all day everyday in his little arazu watching towers and looking for opportunities to do this no matter if the tower is set to alliance or corp only, passworded or scrambled.

The whole thing hinges upon using titans to cause a massive bump to

1. Eject the target from the pos

2. Create momentum for your own titans to warp off before any tackle comes.

Theres only one guy, one FC, one alliance that is doing this. Both PL and Goons have tested it, got it to work and made a video but the mechanics are so janky nobody is exploiting it except this one group.

If you got the password its a simple matter to bump a titan out using machariels, especially if it just bridged a fleet. Theres no support there. Except you need to cyno in a short distance away so the machs can build momentum. If the titan pilot is on the ball and has roles he can quickly change the password.

The titan cyno bump cuts out two steps- you dont need the password and you dont need to build any momentum.

They don't deserve a ban unless you finish the exploit. As it states you need to "not know" the password (or guess wrong), the target has to be inside POS shields, pos ahs to be configured correctly and the target has to die.

If there is no dead titan, there is no exploit being used and no petition going around.

I thought this was self-explanatory to everyone.

Intent matters not. CCP has a hard enough time enforcing is EULA without sifting through the dung heap of intent. Outcome is all that matters. I didn't intend to commit an exploit isn't an excuse. Stay far enough away from the line and there will be no issue. It's pretty simple. I'm quite sure we can find more ways of killing titans if we really tried. Bit that would require logging in for more than just jumping and popping of a round to get some short-term giggles before heading back to Candy Crush.

So, if you land and the password doesn't work, and the titans gets bumped out, as long as you don't kill the Titan it is OK

Just leave it in space 100km from POS

How long before your friend next door can come in with a HIC and point it, then you jump away and then back cause he found a Titan floating in space?

Again, this has to be able to be policed

If the target is really AFK, he deserves to die a horrible death for someone random to enter the system, scan the titan down and point it.

It's not complicated and it's quite simple but for some reason CCP cannot figure out what to do.

Its a proven fact that ships, namely- titans that cyno right onto the shield edge are able to affect (bump) another titan that is inside the shields when they do not have legit access to the tower (the password) that is the only thing anyone is complaining about.

You just don't like their answer

Why is this being argued the rules are black and white.

"Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit."

06.12.2013 10:53 By CCP Falcon

Because the game is doing the bumping, not the players

Essentially the ships are out of control, it isn't like you can stop a titan doing 6500 m/s, it just happens

Essentially the ships are out of control, it isn't like you can stop a titan doing 6500 m/s, it just happens

A player positioned the cyno, and lit it.
The titan pilots subsequently right clicked their capacitor, scrolled to "jump to", and selected the cyno character's name.
It's not as if bumping is something that only happens rarely following these actions taken by a bunch of titan pilots.

In other words, "I didn't know I was going to bump that titan that's in the shields that I don't have access to" is not an excuse, because that was the entire reason for jumping. The bump was not something that just incidentally happened.

Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.

Attempts to bypass the game mechanics of starbase force-fields are fully visible in server logs to CCP GamesGÇÖ staff and will result in appropriate action taken against the involved user accounts as per the EVE Online Suspension and Ban Policy from here on.

You have still FAILED to answer a basic question


How do you separate the 2 instances where you have a password

One instance the password works and this is fine and no one will say a thing

next instance, the password doesn't work and it is considered an exploit

Either way, you can't tell until AFTER you jump

Do you ban the person giving out the bad password?


You want it banned for even the scenario where someone has the correct password cause "No, don't bump me Titan" but the world isn't that rosey.

You have still FAILED to answer a basic question
How do you separate the 2 instances where you have a password
One instance the password works and this is fine and no one will say a thing
next instance, the password doesn't work and it is considered an exploit
Either way, you can't tell until AFTER you jump
Do you ban the person giving out the bad password?

You want it banned for even the scenario where someone has the correct password cause "No, don't bump me Titan" but the world isn't that rosey.

You're being thick, but I'll give you two options:

1) Cyno ship puts in the password, tries to enter the shields. If possible, light the cyno.

2) If you didn't guess the correct password, you don't shoot the target.

Former obviously being open to "hmmm, hostile penetrated my POS shields, time to jump out" and latter is open to a random chance of a 3rd party showing up and pointing the titan before it jumps away. No, I don't mean an invited 3rd party, a random roamer through nullsec in a HIC, totally plausible...

Very simple - if you have password to a pos , like history shows - you don't drop titan fleet hoping for a bump , but you cyno in subcapitals perfect for bumping , and some tackle like dictors and hictors.

Why?
People are not stupid. Especially FC able to call for a supercapital fleet in alliances like NC or PL.
You know password - drop capitals - bump maybe will occur, but you are not 100% sure.
Even when bump occurs, enemy ship my still land in pos shields - then what?
Order other titans to put their MWD on and try to make another bump ? 10km away?
Enemy pilot can click safe logout ... and your ships still will not in a half way to it when it disappears.
He can jump out , change password - and you endangered your supers for nothing.

The proper way to do it , and how people are doing it - is to drop subcapitals that will bump titan from shields, 1-2 bump from machariels and he will have no chance of surviving. You also drop initial tackle, dictors and hictors that will keep your target in place.

I don't know what you want to achieve asking this question.
Most of eve players , are bit more intelligent that in normal MMO, and i don't think that CCP employees are different.

Look at this recording - all titans and subcapitals are bouncing off pos shield.
None of them had access , and unless there is new MWD 1000 for Titans - titan moving 3000+/s means one thing BUMP - and all those spreaded out titans confirm this.


Let me just ask you a question.
You have 10 enemy JF sitting at small pos - and you really want to kill them.

You don't know the password - but no one forbids you to guess it by yourself.
" OK cyno up"
" First group set password 0001, jump in. "
" Seccond group set password 0002, jump in"
" Third group set password 0003, jump in"
(...)

[quote=Anthar Thebess]

When did you become "The proper way to do this" police? There is no proper way, that is what we are discussing. If you have the password, you don't need subcaps, they take longer to form and you have to bridge them wasting precious time
Again, this does nothing but make it impossible to do even if the password is known and correct
"Please don't kill mai Titanz yo"

If you bothered to read my previous posts;

1) Can't do it, once you enter shields, you lose cloak and the trap is sprung. Or lets say it does work and you enter shields, but Titan pilot sees you. Waits for you to leave and then changes password.

Cyno is lit and everyone jumps in with wrong password, is it still an exploit?


2) so, we are back to leaving the titan 100km from pos in the middle of knowhere is acceptable outcome?

As for 1) CCP currently states that ALL of the following have to happen when killing a target when it was inside a POS for it to be an exploit:

- Ship has to be bumped outside of the protective bubble; they have to had been inside the bubble to begin with
- POS has to have it's shield up and it has to have a password set which is not known by the aggressors
- POS has to be configured correctly to not allow people outside of corp/alliance to enter it

This thread is about the application of the exploit notification in a case which is outlined on the OP. To stay on topic, can you clarify if the procedure in the OP falls into the exploit notification or not?

CCP can't enforce their own rules plain and simple.

In 2013 they said POS bumping is illegal, now what?

Correct, because this isn't pos bumping, this is cyno bumping, with a pos nearby

Yeah, I know it is semantics, but until they can stop ships bumping on a cyno, they will never prevent this

It has resulted in titans dying from the bumping, both in the fleet that cyno'd in as well as the fleet or titan in cyno'd in on top of


Basically, you have to have a rule that is enforceable, and this one isn't, PERIOD

Below are the radii of the four classes of titan. For this use, the larger the better.

Leviathan: 9000.0
Ragnarok: 8900.0
Erebus: 7500.0
Avatar: 6800.0

You have still FAILED to answer a basic question


How do you separate the 2 instances where you have a password

One instance the password works and this is fine and no one will say a thing

next instance, the password doesn't work and it is considered an exploit

Either way, you can't tell until AFTER you jump

Do you ban the person giving out the bad password?


You want it banned for even the scenario where someone has the correct password cause "No, don't bump me Titan" but the world isn't that rosey.

James Amril-Kesh - that guy argued in the BR thread they shouldn't be immune to scanning because it makes dumb pilots safe. I would say this falls into the same category, any pilot, corp, alliance that uses a POS with a Titan that may even remotely have a password is dumb at best. Even the illusion of a password is asking to lose your Titan.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

If a ship inside a POS forcefield being interacted with by a ship outside the force field is a exploit, then almost every titan bridge in the last 6 years has been an exploit.

If the Titan was sitting @ 0 on the tower well inside the forcefield, then sure-- cry exploit. When it is sitting on the razor's edge of the game mechanics, I would hazard that you as just as much at fault. I would suggest not being so close to the shields that a cyno jump could cause you to get bumped.

If a ship inside a POS forcefield being interacted with by a ship outside the force field is a exploit, then almost every titan bridge in the last 6 years has been an exploit.

If the Titan was sitting @ 0 on the tower well inside the forcefield, then sure-- cry exploit. When it is sitting on the razor's edge of the game mechanics, I would hazard that you as just as much at fault. I would suggest not being so close to the shields that a cyno jump could cause you to get bumped.

Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.

There is nothing to discuss.
Eve is a game, complicated , and buggy one.
Some of the bugs are well known , and hard to fix because of lot of work , or dependencies .
Perfect example is pos mechanic that blocks a lot of changes.

Every one know that it is possible to bump something sitting on the edge of pos shields.
People where abusing this - usually to kill something that should be out of their reach - and because of this CCP put simple rule - you have no access to pos shields - you cannot bump ANY THING sitting inside of the shields out of the shields without access to the pos.

GM made mistake. ( if this leaked by NC response is true)

If there is policy that states that something is WHITE , GM cannot say that this is BLACK.

Again.

Server have EULA , and Polices that your duty is to comply each time you login to server.
If policy states :


NC already confirmed that they did this using cyno - bumps.

What we still don't know , is real response from CCP.
What we have is some info leaked by NC.
This could be a troll, and lets hope that this is a troll , because summary of this email is very short:
" You don't have to keep fundamental principles stated in Polices "

If logs don't show nothing, video shows what happened , and we know how to reproduce this.
Bugged logger?

CCP cannot base its actions only on logs.
Because all RMT don't fall under the "logs".

If then every one can sell 100 plex for 1 isk .

Btw.
Why do you think that people are stupid?
This is broken mechanic - CCP is aware about this.
Thats why the policy was put in place.

Death to all supers?
Agree - perma bans all people who where involved in this.
This will be few more titans out of the game, this time game will be free of few buggers.

Think about the impact - people braking polices , and abusing bugs get their titan pilots baned.
Who will ever try again to bug in this way?

I guess maybe you didn't hear yet

CCP said it is NOT a bug and it is OK, so NO ONE will get banned for this

They said it is because the ships are bigger than what you see on screen due to the spheres, so although the spheres touch thru the shield, the ships themselves didn't actually go thru the shields, so it is OK

I guess maybe you didn't hear yet

CCP said it is NOT a bug and it is OK, so NO ONE will get banned for this

They said it is because the ships are bigger than what you see on screen due to the spheres, so although the spheres touch thru the shield, the ships themselves didn't actually go thru the shields, so it is OK

Only things we know is:

1) Reproduction of the happenigs use mechanics which are bannable via the December 2013 announcement

2) Mr Vee didn't get reimbursed because CCp couldn't verify that it was used against him from logs and 3rd party evidence is not admissible

Nowhere was said that the December 2013 exploit notification is null and void.

We can talk here as much as we can.

CCP Fozzie stated more than once that he reads every thing.

So lets ask CCP Fozzie , or someone else from CCP:

Is bumping ships from pos shields when you don't have access to pos (pos is properly configured) is forbidden by policy.


Of course this question include all possible situations - the base rule is :
if you don't have access to pos - you cannot use any means to bump something out of the shields.

The base rule is this: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-forcefield-access/?_ga=1.218636058.267855027.1374947070

That beign said, if the ships is close to the shield edge, its sphere is also outside the shields, even if it can't be seen, and if another large ships gets close and it's sphere bumps, did it really enter the POS shields

Survey says no, and that is why no one got banned - for this situation

What if a ship is well inside of the pos , including its sphere , and bumping ship is titan that can aproach pos shields close enough that its own sphere reaches well to much inside of the pos?

You are also not CCP employee.
CCP is loosing people fast , but i think there will be someone that will care to respond, and give clear answer.

Do we know if someone got banned? - NO.

Sorry, i have policy that states otherwise.
Do we know CCP answer - NO.
Do we know if someone got banned? - NO.

This don't have to be perma bans , CCP quite often use 30 day bans or gives warnings.
People are obligated to not share this with any one.

Thats why i'm asking CCP if policy about pos bumping have changed.
Currently it clearly states that no pos bumping is allowed when ship is in FF and you don't have password or access to this pos.

Poses are very important part of eve game play , especially in nullsec.
I want to know if i can leave ship on pos without danger that someone will bump it out of the forcefield.

Now using the same tactics you can easily bump out any capital ship sitting in small tower , even when it sits very near of the tower.
Again if the is distance from the pos shields that you have to keep to be safe - i would like to CCP put this also in the policy.
Something like .

Ships can be bumped from shields if they are closer than 10km from the edge of the forcefield.

CCP Fozzie , any one from CCP , can we get an answer what is safe place in the pos shields?
Can we even consider small towers safe?

The CLEAR answer is the fact no one got banned - I don't know how much more clear that could be

Just because you want to make it blurry doesn't negate the fact it has ALREADY been decided

To be fair, that doesn't mean it's not considered an exploit - it just means the logs show nothing, like they always do.

There are rumors that a senior GM stated....