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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Paul Tsukaya
Dirt 'n' Glitter I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
91
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Posted - 2014.09.10 18:51:00 -
[1] - Quote
CCP posted this exploit notification in June 2013: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-forcefield-access/
They stated:
Quote: Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.
Attempts to bypass the game mechanics of starbase force-fields are fully visible in server logs to CCP GamesGÇÖ staff and will result in appropriate action taken against the involved user accounts as per the EVE Online Suspension and Ban Policy from here on.
Recently NCDOT may have bumped a titan out of a password protected force field without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings.
There are rumors that a senior GM stated that in NCDOT's case it wasn't an exploit because they used titans to bump it out which incurred "substantial risks." Obviously I'm not allowed to paste the alleged correspondence.
This is extremely concerning as if these rumors are true it could be seen as CCP employees favoring big power blocks over normal players. "It's an exploit if you do it but if a big power bloc does it with 16 titans it's not an exploit." Could the CSM please look in to this to make absolutely sure certain alliances aren't getting special treatment? |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
147
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Posted - 2014.09.10 20:42:00 -
[2] - Quote
Paul Tsukaya wrote:CCP posted this exploit notification in June 2013: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-forcefield-access/They stated: Quote: Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.
Attempts to bypass the game mechanics of starbase force-fields are fully visible in server logs to CCP GamesGÇÖ staff and will result in appropriate action taken against the involved user accounts as per the EVE Online Suspension and Ban Policy from here on. Recently NCDOT may have bumped a titan out of a password protected force field without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings. There are rumors that a senior GM stated that in NCDOT's case it wasn't an exploit because they used titans to bump it out which incurred "substantial risks." Obviously I'm not allowed to paste the alleged correspondence. This is extremely concerning as if these rumors are true it could be seen as CCP employees favoring big power blocks over normal players. "It's an exploit if you do it but if a big power bloc does it with 16 titans it's not an exploit." Could the CSM please look in to this to make absolutely sure certain alliances aren't getting special treatment?
/popcorm |
Paul Tsukaya
Dirt 'n' Glitter I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
91
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Posted - 2014.09.10 20:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Paul Tsukaya wrote:CCP posted this exploit notification in June 2013: http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/exploit-notification-forcefield-access/They stated: Quote: Bumping ships, that are located within password protected starbase force-fields, out of the force-field from outside without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings, is considered an exploit.
Attempts to bypass the game mechanics of starbase force-fields are fully visible in server logs to CCP GamesGÇÖ staff and will result in appropriate action taken against the involved user accounts as per the EVE Online Suspension and Ban Policy from here on. Recently NCDOT may have bumped a titan out of a password protected force field without having the correct password or corporation/alliance permissions as configured in the tower settings. There are rumors that a senior GM stated that in NCDOT's case it wasn't an exploit because they used titans to bump it out which incurred "substantial risks." Obviously I'm not allowed to paste the alleged correspondence. This is extremely concerning as if these rumors are true it could be seen as CCP employees favoring big power blocks over normal players. "It's an exploit if you do it but if a big power bloc does it with 16 titans it's not an exploit." Could the CSM please look in to this to make absolutely sure certain alliances aren't getting special treatment? /popcorm There's a video now of a titan on singularity being bumped out of a POS in this manner which is supposedly not an exploit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oveOq2MQ4sA
Now remember if you do something like this with bumping battleships it's an exploit, but if you do it with titans it's not because of the "substantial risks involved" allegedly according to an eve online senior GM. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
147
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Posted - 2014.09.10 21:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
here is a flipside to that arguement, and yes, I am familiar with the video. PL also made a similar video
Those video work on Bumping from cynoing in, if you rule bumping when you cyno in is an exploit, then you might as well remove cynos from the game
If you rule that bumping from a cyno event shouldn't result in a kill, then the hundreds of JF that bumped off a station or other place would also not be legal kills due to bumping from cyno event.
PL also lost a Titan down south when it cyno'd in with a group of other titans and it bumped so hard it got out of rep range of the fleet and died, was that an exploit, should we petition and have it replaced?
Short of making "cyno can't be lit within 50km of pos shield" or some crap, bumping is going to happen and players have ZERO control, there was as much chance of nothing as there was at something there.
But, be prepared for what you wish for, if you make killing something from a bump that the player can NOT control when they cyno in somewhere. |
Paul Tsukaya
Dirt 'n' Glitter I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
91
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Posted - 2014.09.10 21:37:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think the issue isn't stuff bumping on cyno in, it's that a ship fully inside a POS shield is being bumped by ships that can not enter the POS. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
148
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Posted - 2014.09.10 21:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Paul Tsukaya wrote:I think the issue isn't stuff bumping on cyno in, it's that a ship fully inside a POS shield is being bumped by ships that can not enter the POS.
Sure, but the exploit pilots were specifically doing it on purpose with special fits
Bumping on cyno is something pilots certainly have ZERO control over it |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11424
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Posted - 2014.09.10 23:00:00 -
[7] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:Paul Tsukaya wrote:I think the issue isn't stuff bumping on cyno in, it's that a ship fully inside a POS shield is being bumped by ships that can not enter the POS. Sure, but the exploit pilots were specifically doing it on purpose with special fits Bumping on cyno is something pilots certainly have ZERO control over it Jumping to a cyno is something pilots have 100% control over. There is no reason to jump titans onto a cyno right next to the tower with a titan inside the shields except for bumping the titan out. I'd have no problem with you doing so if you have access to the force field, but without that access cynoing that close to the tower serves no other purpose than to use the exploit. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
Cherry Yeyo
80
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Posted - 2014.09.10 23:32:00 -
[8] - Quote
CSM please advise http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2g0wvb/irrefutable_evidence_sans_fraps_that_ncdot_titans/ CCP Rise>Sentry drones have enormous downsides |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
148
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Posted - 2014.09.11 02:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:Paul Tsukaya wrote:I think the issue isn't stuff bumping on cyno in, it's that a ship fully inside a POS shield is being bumped by ships that can not enter the POS. Sure, but the exploit pilots were specifically doing it on purpose with special fits Bumping on cyno is something pilots certainly have ZERO control over it Jumping to a cyno is something pilots have 100% control over. There is no reason to jump titans onto a cyno right next to the tower with a titan inside the shields except for bumping the titan out. I'd have no problem with you doing so if you have access to the force field, but without that access cynoing that close to the tower serves no other purpose than to use the exploit.
So basically we should remove cynos cause bumping is an exploit
Maybe they thought they had the password and were just getting titans in place
You really think people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the off chance there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them? While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic puts them at severe risk every time they cyno into a new system
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DJ FunkyBacon
Aliastra Gallente Federation
334
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Posted - 2014.09.11 05:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Personally I would say that if using ships to bump a ship out of a POS forcefield is an exploit, this tactic as you describe it seems about the same, regardless of the risks involved... but what do I know? Given how likely your own ships are to get bounced off the shield at a decent velocity, it doesn't seem to be tactically sound unless you're doing it to bump out what's inside.
I see no issue with an incoming ship bouncing off something and getting lost due to going out of rep range or whatever, but certainly I've seen elsewhere that intentionally bumping ships out of a POS shield without access to the POS is a no no. Condoning this particular tactic on the other hand would certainly open it up to much wider use, and if it's ok with titans, why not dreads and carriers? That would seem to be more cost effective if they have the mass for it.
I'll be happy to ask the question for you though since my personal opinions on the matter mean nothing when it comes to CCP classing this particular tactic as an exploit or not. Clarification on this, if it happened as you say, would be nice. CSM9 Factional Warfare/Lowsec Representative Radio Host, Blogger, Lowsec Resident, PvP Afficionado. http://funkybacon.blogspot.com http://twitter.com/FunkyBacon |
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3763
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Posted - 2014.09.11 05:38:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kenneth Feld wrote:
You really think people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the off chance there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them? While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic puts them at severe risk every time they cyno into a new system
No. I do not think that people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the off chance there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them.
What I really think is that people are going to monitor systems/poses in which they know titans to operate, so that if they see one near the edge and have a dozen or so titans handy, they can exploit and bump them. While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic ejects their own titan at several thousand meters per second, giving them very high odds that (whether or not they kill their prey) they can make a clean getaway and then go post strawmen arguments on the forums. Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal |
Schwa Nuts
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
69
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Posted - 2014.09.11 07:21:00 -
[12] - Quote
Anyone that would defend this as a legitimate tactic is not being honest. It's quite obviously not intended game mechanics. |
Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate Tactical Narcotics Team
90
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Posted - 2014.09.11 07:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
Does anyone recall the details that resulted in the exploit notice from 2013? Was it not related to NC. performing this exact tactic? Could be totally wrong, but I'm still not surprised someone at CCP would rule entirely differently this time around. Precedent isn't a strong suit. |
Cray Havoc
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2014.09.11 07:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
So basically it's okay to exploit game mechanics (server ticks) if we do it with Titans but it's bannable if we do it with a Battleship?
Don't get me wrong, I understand that the reason, that stuff like this is working has to do with multiple factors like invisible model size, server ticks, mass, bad pos code and god knows what else. We do not ask for a fix because it's probably impossible to do in a timely manner. But you can't just come along and declare that this obvious exploit (that CCP itself declared as a bannable offense) is suddenly 'emergent gameplay' if you do it under the right circumstances. There is absolutley ZERO difference between applying this 'tactic' with subcaps or supercapitals, they exploit exactly the same flaw in the code and mechanics and by CCPs own ruling thats an exploit.
If you decided to change this, you should have announced it in a Devblog for everyone to see. This way you gave an extremly unfair advantage to two playergroups in the game, without telling anyone else. Looks like some things will never change. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
988
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Posted - 2014.09.11 09:20:00 -
[15] - Quote
This really does seem like an exploit in all regards, players who are cynoing that close to a tower and right next to a Titan they can't kill because it's 100% inside the shields are only doing it for one reason, to bump and kill.
I find it shocking that CCP will deem this okay. Lieutenant Turelus Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
I post on my main... shocking I know! |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
148
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Posted - 2014.09.11 09:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dirk MacGirk wrote:Does anyone recall the details that resulted in the exploit notice from 2013? Regardless, mass is mass when launched at a pos shield whether by subcap or supercap. I'm still not surprised someone at CCP would rule entirely differently this time around. Following precedent is a difficult task.
Yes, very familiar with it, but I am pretty sure saying what it is or how it worked on forums is the same as doing it in game, which is why i have refereed to it but never said what or how to do it |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
148
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Posted - 2014.09.11 09:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Kenneth Feld wrote:
You really think people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the off chance there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them? While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic puts them at severe risk every time they cyno into a new system
No. I do not think that people are going to jump 50 Titans all over New Eden on the "off chance" there is a Titan in a POS so they can exploit and bump them. What I really think is that people are going to monitor systems/poses in which they know titans to operate, so that if they see one near the edge and have a dozen or so titans handy, they can exploit and bump them. While they are doing that the same bumping mechanic ejects their own titan at several thousand meters per second, giving them very high odds that (whether or not they kill their prey) they can make a clean getaway and then go post strawmen arguments on the forums.
So, what is the exploit?
Lighting the cyno to close to shields?
Jumping Titans thru a cyno?
Or do you have to light a cyno close to a shield, which you may or may not have the password to, what if you *think* you have the password due to a spai and you jump and then you don't have the password. The spai set you up, now you are banned for exploit. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
11167
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Posted - 2014.09.11 11:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
"because of this very particular hypothetical edge case, this exploit should not be considered an exploit"
this just reeks of desperation
hint: the exploit isn't jumping titans, it's not using a cyno, it's doing a combination of the two with the intent of bumping a ship out of a forcefield when the ship is entirely enclosed by the shields Twitter: @EVEAndski
"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -á-á - Abrazzar |
Julius Magnum
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2014.09.11 12:04:00 -
[19] - Quote
In the mean time, a thread started by some-A- dude regarding the same subject has been locked by an moderator, instead if simply moving it to the right forums location. Do we have to understand that discussing this subject in official forums is forbidden or is just because CCP cannot/does not want to enforce the rules to a specific alliance? |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
149
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Posted - 2014.09.11 12:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
Andski wrote:"because of this very particular hypothetical edge case, this exploit should not be considered an exploit"
this just reeks of desperation
hint: the exploit isn't jumping titans, it's not using a cyno, it's doing a combination of the two with the intent of bumping a ship out of a forcefield when the ship is entirely enclosed by the shields
So, if everyone puts in the password and waits for cyno, meanwhile someone changes the pos password or the leaked password is wrong and they jump, is it still an exploit?
I mean when you hit jump you THOUGHT you had the correct password, there is no INTENT, it was an accident, yet you get banned for it |
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Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
1354
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 12:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
I wasn't aware you needed a POS password to bump a giant object more than 15km long inside a shield and near the edge, with another 15+ km long object from outside of the shield that just cynoed in at minimum range to the shield at a well-chosen location.
Who cares about the password? You're spawning the titans close enough to the shield that they're still likely to get geometry inside it that will trigger the collision detection as soon as they move, which in turn will cause the supposedly 'safe' titan to go flying. You only need the password if the hostile titans don't want to get bounced by the shield. Morwen Lagann CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar Owner, The Golden Masque
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Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
149
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Posted - 2014.09.11 13:03:00 -
[22] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:I wasn't aware you needed a POS password to bump a giant object more than 15km long inside a shield and near the edge, with another 15+ km long object from outside of the shield that just cynoed in at minimum range to the shield at a well-chosen location.
Who cares about the password? You're spawning the titans close enough to the shield that they're still likely to get geometry inside it that will trigger the collision detection as soon as they move, which in turn will cause the supposedly 'safe' titan to go flying. You only need the password if the hostile titans don't want to get bounced by the shield.
BUT, if you have the password, this is all LEGAL
No one here will argue that, bumping WITH a password is not only legal but encouraged
Now, you have to verify Intent, did they intend to cyno so close without a password hoping to bump or did they think they had the password and thought they were bumping legally. One intent is what people are arguing is an exploit, the other isn't.
You can't check ahead of time, even with a cloaky ship because as soon as you enter force field you uncloak and the trap is sprung, so you have to enter password and jump and hope for the best |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
1354
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Posted - 2014.09.11 13:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
I would think intent to be pretty easy to determine.
If you're not in the same alliance as the bumped titan, odds are the intent was hostile.
If you are in the same alliance as the bumped titan, odds are your cyno pilot is either a ******* moron that should be executed for incompetence, or is a spy.
It really isn't that difficult to move around to the other side of the shield where your supposedly friendly cyno won't bump anything inside the shield. Are we really trying to argue that people can't see the giant ******* titan on their screen? Because I don't think anyone's going to buy that argument. Morwen Lagann CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar Owner, The Golden Masque
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Cray Havoc
Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2014.09.11 14:30:00 -
[24] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:I would think intent to be pretty easy to determine.
If you're not in the same alliance as the bumped titan, odds are the intent was hostile.
If you are in the same alliance as the bumped titan, odds are your cyno pilot is either a ******* moron that should be executed for incompetence, or is a spy.
It really isn't that difficult to move around to the other side of the shield where your supposedly friendly cyno won't bump anything inside the shield. Are we really trying to argue that people can't see the giant ******* titan on their screen? Because I don't think anyone's going to buy that argument.
He is arguing that you could obtain the POS Password through spy/intel/luck and use the same technique without it beeing an exploit.
It's a valid point but I'm pretty sure that it's possible to figure that out later, right now it's important to know if titans in a ******* POS that noone can enter are (supposed to be) save or not. |
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
1354
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Posted - 2014.09.11 14:52:00 -
[25] - Quote
I'm not disagreeing that if you have the POS password, the appropriate response to the victim is "lol, welp, sucks to be you".
If you DON'T have the password, it should be an exploit, full stop - and that's what the OP was on about, afaict. The fact that you CAN knock **** out of a POS without having the password because the minimum cyno distance is close enough that a titan can jump in and still touch things on the inside of the shield.
My point still stands, though - if you, inside the POS shield, are getting bumped by large things being cynoed in, the odds of it being an accident are low, because you'd have to be incredibly stupid to set up a friendly cyno in a fashion that would do something like that. Morwen Lagann CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar Owner, The Golden Masque
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Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
142
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Posted - 2014.09.11 15:24:00 -
[26] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote: If you DON'T have the password, it should be an exploit, full stop - and that's what the OP was on about, afaict.
You would think, but when nothing to do with an exploit shows up in logs, it becomes schrodinger's exploit -- who knows what happened or what the intent was. Then you have the problem of who you ban if hypothetically you had absolute proof (video) -- the titan that hit the bump, or all of them, or just the cyno? Maybe the other titan pilots in the fleet claim they had no idea they were being dropped to intentionally cyno-bump the other guy? It's just a mess.
Easier to just say cyno-bumps are not an exploit and trust people with titans to educate themselves that they need to be fully inside shields by X km to avoid having their collision sphere poke out. Maybe document the damn game a little bit. That or just push the minimum distance for cynos from pos shields out even further, but I'm pretty sure most super pilots would find that cure worse than the disease.
If mobile cyno inhibitors didn't cost 26m and last for just an hour they'd be the perfect defense. Anchor one about 90km from your pos and put your titan on that side of shield edge -- your allies can still jump in on the other side, you can bridge a fleet out from your side. |
Airi Cho
Dark-Rising Executive Outcomes
15
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Posted - 2014.09.11 16:31:00 -
[27] - Quote
so just make cynos not work within 50 or even 100km of a pos. the code for it should be there (hello mobile cyno inhibitor)
not sure why we need to make such a big wave out of this. |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
149
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 16:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
Airi Cho wrote:so just make cynos not work within 50 or even 100km of a pos. the code for it should be there (hello mobile cyno inhibitor)
not sure why we need to make such a big wave out of this.
I said that in my first post BTW |
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
149
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Posted - 2014.09.11 16:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
Morwen Lagann wrote:I'm not disagreeing that if you have the POS password, the appropriate response to the victim is "lol, welp, sucks to be you".
If you DON'T have the password, it should be an exploit, full stop - and that's what the OP was on about, afaict. The fact that you CAN knock **** out of a POS without having the password because the minimum cyno distance is close enough that a titan can jump in and still touch things on the inside of the shield.
My point still stands, though - if you, inside the POS shield, are getting bumped by large things being cynoed in, the odds of it being an accident are low, because you'd have to be incredibly stupid to set up a friendly cyno in a fashion that would do something like that.
The point is, you can't "Test" a pos password, you won't know if you do or don't have it until you cyno in
Therefore you won't know if you exploited until it is too late, that is a horrible mechanic |
Dread Nanana
Action Super Dupper Test Corp
29
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Posted - 2014.09.11 16:53:00 -
[30] - Quote
Yeap, that does not look very innocent. Looks like a bug to me.
Maybe CCP could fix the jump-in-code so it takes the size of the ship into account so no ship appears closer than 5km from the force field.
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