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Dutarro
Kydance Radiant Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.01 21:44:00 -
[1]
Let's say (totally hypothetical of course) you are an 'industrial' player and become very annoyed at one or more other players, say .. oh I don't know ... a pirate corp along your favorite low sec trade route. The usual EVE response is to go pwn them in battleships, declare war, hire mercenaries, blah blah, but that's all so messy. The industrial player might notice that said hoodlums are frequently found in an empire where the industrialist has quite good political connections (i.e. faction standing). Pull a few strings, make a few calls on GalNet and OOPS the pirate corp's office rental seems to have been lost in the mail, 500k megacyte and other assorted goodies from the corp hangar are now impounded for a few days while it's all sorted out. Or maybe a pirate or two has their faction standing mysteriously drop below -5.0 in the government database. And the victims don't just have to be pirates, could be business rivals or something. Sounds like fun, eh?
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.08.01 21:59:00 -
[2]
Extremly abusable, so maybe better keep with the "hire mercs" option :)
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Dutarro
Kydance Radiant Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.01 22:09:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Extremly abusable, so maybe better keep with the "hire mercs" option :)
Meh ... I can dream can't I? 
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Roddic
Gallente
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Posted - 2006.08.02 02:47:00 -
[4]
haven't you heard. war and death is good for industrial characters, as long as they aren't the ones dying. but seriously, if the pirates kill some guy, that guys going to want ships and fittings, the pirates are going to want ammo, its a win win situation.
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Sarah Friedman
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Posted - 2006.08.02 02:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Extremly abusable, so maybe better keep with the "hire mercs" option :)
re: being "highly abusable," well, dishing out abuse strikes me as kind of being the point.
Economic, covert, or diplomatic "warfare" strike me as an excellent idea. As it stands now, there are lots of great things in EVE, but there are also a lot of things that get "simplified" in order to make a playable game. Personally, I would like to see a few things unsimplified.
As an industrial character, I would also like to not be beholden to mercenaries. I may not be able to stand up for myself with missiles and lasers, but I should have some options available based on my own capabilities.
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Sovereign533
Caldari
133rd Ghost Wing
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Posted - 2006.08.02 09:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Sarah Friedman
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
Extremly abusable, so maybe better keep with the "hire mercs" option :)
re: being "highly abusable," well, dishing out abuse strikes me as kind of being the point.
Economic, covert, or diplomatic "warfare" strike me as an excellent idea. As it stands now, there are lots of great things in EVE, but there are also a lot of things that get "simplified" in order to make a playable game. Personally, I would like to see a few things unsimplified.
As an industrial character, I would also like to not be beholden to mercenaries. I may not be able to stand up for myself with missiles and lasers, but I should have some options available based on my own capabilities.
simple : train combat skills, and buy a combat ship.
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Zarch AlDain
The Blackwater Brigade
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.08.02 09:27:00 -
[7]
Actually if it was balanced correctly I really like these ideas. It opens out a few more avenues for PvP rather than just blowing people up.
Zarch AlDain
The Blackwater Brigade
Huzzah Federation
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.08.02 11:01:00 -
[8]
But its hard to balance a method of kicking people remotely (20 systems away) without realistic way of retaliation unless You have corp standings and skills.
-Corp standings require missions. Traders and pvpers often hate missions as uber boring. Noone shuld be forced to do them.
-skills take time to make. So if some griefer wants to lock away all hangars of chosen newbie, newbie needs like 2 months of skilling before he can play, fun fun fun.
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Zarch AlDain
The Blackwater Brigade
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.08.02 11:07:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ellaine TashMurkon
But its hard to balance a method of kicking people remotely (20 systems away) without realistic way of retaliation unless You have corp standings and skills.
-Corp standings require missions. Traders and pvpers often hate missions as uber boring. Noone shuld be forced to do them.
-skills take time to make. So if some griefer wants to lock away all hangars of chosen newbie, newbie needs like 2 months of skilling before he can play, fun fun fun.
But how is that any different from saying PvPers need ships, traders hate PvPing and shouldn't need to get into PvPing?
Now the greifing point is a good one - hence my comment about 'balanced appropriately'.
For example someone who has negative security standings would be much much easier to hit with this sort of thing, etc, etc.
You would need ways to find out who is doing this stuff against you too.
Zarch AlDain
The Blackwater Brigade
Huzzah Federation
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.08.02 11:27:00 -
[10]
Trader who "hates" pvp, can avoid lowsec, have a scout, read map, use scanner, fit WCS, hire mercs. If You are haunted by some bad pvper, You can go to completely diffrent corner of galaxy.
Whover who hates to have hangar locked and being unable to, for example, undock Your main ship for 5 days, can: improve skills, improve standing? Ah, can also keep things in POS or friendly outpost/conquerable, but those options are not available to Joe Average.
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Dutarro
Kydance Radiant Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.02 11:56:00 -
[11]
My, I am surprised this idea was taken as seriously as it has been, since it was offered half in jest. On the other hand, it might have real possibilities if balanced properly.
First of all, it should be extremely difficult to use 'political PvP' against new players. Anyone in an NPC starter corp and less than a couple of months old should be virtually immune.
Also, it should be possible for one mission junkie in a corp to execute political/legal maneuvers on behalf of his corpmates, so that everyone isn't forced into the agent running profession.
In addition to the 'offensive' maneuvers outlined earlier, there should be defensive actions one can take to protect against political attack, or to neutralize such an attack after the fact.
Finally, the usefulness of political attacks should depend on system security status. Political clout carries more weight than combat prowess in core systems, but less so out on the frontier. Local officials in lawless regions worry more about getting ganked on the way home than making their next promotion.
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Ellaine TashMurkon
Em Pack
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.08.02 11:58:00 -
[12]
Ok, now it gets better, as a poor pirate can run to 0.1 :)
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Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
Placid Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.03 09:27:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Kakita Jalaan on 03/08/2006 09:33:30
A social/political PVP option would be _SO_ much fun, seriously. And about it being abusable, hiring mercs to kill somebody is just as abusable. The whole point of any PVP is inconveniencing someone in a way he would not usually inflict on himself.
Just as wardecs, political PVP should be limited to player corps, so people can escape it if they really really don't want to deal with it (join NPC corp). Also, this could make corp-corp or corp-faction standing an interesting factor, for example by modifying the availability and cost of certain actions that can be taken.
Now for some more concrete ideas, general stuff, offensive and defensive actions.
general stuff:
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ISK cost for any action should be dependent on own and enemy standing to the executing NPC corp/faction and victim corp size. For some actions, security status could play a role, but then again that's just standing towards CONCORD.
Another factor could be the time the action is supposed to last for, if applicable. For example, "make enemy X lose Y standing for Z days".
Availability of social warfare actions would most likely be based on skills. Make some of the connection/social skills prereqs for them, for example Fast Talk could influence stuff that is related to CONCORD.
Some actions could sacrifice own standing, depending on their severity.
Social warfare will be much more effective if combined with actual warfare.
Social warfare actually is a true money sink, since money goes to NPCs without monetary compensation.
possible offensive actions:
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-Raise transaction tax/broker fees for enemy corp.
-Freeze (part of) enemy corp wallet for limited time.
-Make a payable bill appear for the enemy (additional NPC fee, much more expensive to cause than to pay).
-Make a random regular payable bill arrive later than usual (shorter time window for paying).
-Introduce/raise docking fees at NPC stations.
-Make enemy lose standing with a corp/faction/agent.
-Make enemy lose security status.
-Gather vague general information about enemy corp ("owns X corp offices in Y regions").
-Raise cost of NPC station services, possibly including rental fees.
-Have enemy ships sabotaged (lose x% of remaining structure HP on undocking with a small chance)
-Have enemy clones sabotaged/downgraded. (Yeah, I know it won't happen.)
-Move enemy clones to random other station of supplier corp.
-Prolong the "can't change ship" timer in stations. Scotty takes money, too.
-Make location services more expensive/slower to use for enemy.
possible defensive actions:
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Undo any persistant offensive action through counter-bribing.
Engage in social warfare yourself.
Train the Lawyer skill: X% chance of deflecting social warfare per level. CEO's skill is used to defend the corp. Executor CEO skill defends the Alliance.
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Zarch AlDain
The Blackwater Brigade
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2006.08.03 11:12:00 -
[14]
See, now we are talking - and it's starting to sound like fun :)
I think the rule would have to be that effects can inconvenience someone - but not stop them entirely.
For example your office rental prices could start rising - or you might be charged a bit of isk to access your personal hanger - etc etc.
I don't agree that it should be corp only though - there should be a way to hit individuals with this stuff too - but other people should be able to defend them.
I.e. if someone is screwing with your caldari navy standings you go to bill the mission running who has 9.999 standing with caldari navy. He has a word in the ear of someone and all the trouble goes away.
Zarch AlDain
The Blackwater Brigade
Huzzah Federation
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Kakita Jalaan
Viriette Commerce and Holding
Placid Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.03 11:41:00 -
[15]
With conventional wars you can also only target corps and alliances, so it would probably be fair to assume that this sort of warfare would also be limited to corps and above.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
easyCredits
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:44:00 -
[16]
Lawyers in EVE? That would be evil. 
Seriously, such a feature would be an endless source of headaches, for lawful and lawless players alike and just like in real life, it would be wide open for abuse.
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.08.03 12:55:00 -
[17]
Problem is, that ain't PvP, it's just paying money to sick a PvE nusiance on PvPers. The only really good way of doing this would to have some kind of mechanic so that you could actually "Lawyer" yourself in-game, IMO.
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Reggie Stoneloader
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Posted - 2006.08.03 16:16:00 -
[18]
The politics and vendettas and shenanigans are already present in EvE. The suggestion is to use "high faction standings" to "contract a third party" to "do harm to a target". You don't need NPC entities to do that job.
High Faction Standings = a friend with a HAC
Contract a third party = ask him to do you a favor
Do harm to a target = the favor is killing a dude
If you're in a big alliance, you can report his misbehavior and have his hangar and POS privileges revoked, thus losing him whatever gear he had stashed at those locations. His corp could be convinced to impose a fine on him, or a larger corp could pressure them to give him the boot.
The thing is that all legislation and diplomacy is and must be backed by the threat of force. That's why they call it "enforcement" when the government has to directly uphold a law. EvE's society, despite the spaceships and clones, is a very primitive culture, without the delicate balance of power that real world governments experience.
The bigger 0.0 alliances have the beginnings of this, on par with feudal Europe, perhaps, but Empire factions are designed to be a static facade that resembles what actually exists in the outer regions of the galaxy. I don't see any reason to faithfully counterfeit a phenomenon that can be genuinely experienced by signing on with a big group in 0.0 and going out there.
Empire is kindergarten. In "real EvE" you don't have any rights except those you claim for yourself.
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Dutarro
Kydance Radiant Industries
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Posted - 2006.08.03 21:40:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Reggie Stoneloader
..Empire is kindergarten. In "real EvE" you don't have any rights except those you claim for yourself.
You express such blatantly chauvinistic elitism, and then you wonder why people don't come flocking to 0.0? One reason is because we don't like the company.
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