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Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:33:00 -
[1]
It's such a simple idea : A slot is either 12.5% damage / utility slot, a multispectral, +25% - 30% resist, 20% more dps, 4k armor, 30% tracking and 15% range or any numbers of powerful things that are on par with most bonuses that ships receive (except for the fact that they're customizable, making them potentially more powerful).
For some reason, it's been accepted as gospel that Tier3 has to have 20 slots across the board - and in endless debates we're trying to put convincing Tier3 BS down on paper, just to at the end of each and every one discover it obsoletes somewhere between 1-5 other battleships completely. The reason is really, really simple : Extra slots simply mean doing more stuff better.
There's just no at all nuances to it. You can snipe better, tank better, jam better, flee better, hit harder, fly faster, have a bigger cargo hold or whatever the hell you feel like today with another slot. In addition to that, we're infringing on territory held by faction ships - prized posessions that do get this edge, for the players willingness to risk 0.5-1.8 billion on the shiphull alone.
And the most convincing reason for staying with 19 slots I can come up with : Every single T3 BS can be crafted for their role fine with 19 slots - it's a question of bonuses and shipstats more than slots, which just add raw power.
To underline it, lets look at all 4 ships in their hypothetical 19 slot layout :
Abaddon -
8/4/7
Loses a low, no big deal on an inherently awesome damage dealer. Tankability is mostly a factor of capacitor and the size of the resistance bonus, as well as the amount of cargo - so we can just tweak those.
Maelstrom -
8/7/4 (or 8/6/5 for the Tuxlovers)
Look, it's a pretty inversio of the Amarr one! How RP excellent! Regardless - still works fine for the role, assuming it has enough grid for an artillery loadout in the first place.
That it needs base stats that would make it at least into a good AC turret is a totally different matter. It doesn't get thrown out of it's role by having equal slots to the Tempest.
Rokh -
8/6/5 (or 8/7/5)
Still works fine, but leaves us more room to tone down the Neutron/Ion Null fittings with tackling and a reasonable shieldtank down to at least an acceptable level without stealing too much grid to mount 425s.
Hyperion -
8/5/6
Oh noes, one less ECM on our gankboat :( Still a blasterboat with an extra mid scares me in a way that is unholy. And at least that would make it a variation on the Megathron, not a hopeless outclassment.
Well, that's just my 2 cents worth of tripe. There is no reason to keep going "bigger and better" when we're trying to achieve more variety. Outdating 2 ships for every one you introduce is going to leave only high-tech, high-cost, training-intensive ships worth competing in.
While that wouldn't hurt me personally (quite to the contrary), it would definitely mean less people to actually compete with because a larger portion of the playerbase becomes hopelessly outclassed due to no real fault of their own. Which will probably eventually get old for them.
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Sarmaul
0utbreak
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:38:00 -
[2]
I've been calling for 8/7/4 since the concept was announced :/
TEAM MINMATAR FORUMS
- In Rust We Trust - |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:48:00 -
[3]
/signed for 8/6/5 for Rokh and Maelstorm. Get rid of Minmatar and Caldari whiners once and for all. If Minnies whine more, 8/5/6 for them. 8/4/7 is fine for Abaddon. I am happy with 8/5/6 or 8/4/7 for Hyperion though I prefer 8/4/7.
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Patience is a quality that most people seem to lack.
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HappyKitten
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:49:00 -
[4]
More than 19 slots should be faction BS only.
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Heartbreak Harriet
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:50:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Heartbreak Harriet on 02/08/2006 19:51:19
I have no issue with the tier 3s only getting 19 slots, since there's less chance of the lower tier battleships getting rendered obsolete.
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HappyKitten
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:52:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Jim McGregor
/
/ Jim McGregor
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:52:00 -
[7]
/
/ Jim McGregor
---
Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Tiuwaz
Minmatar
Omacron Militia
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:54:00 -
[8]
19 slots are fine, just be generous with grid/cpu
Originally by: Oveur
This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
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Dixon
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: HappyKitten
Originally by: Jim McGregor
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/ Jim McGregor
he's getting larger!
- - - - - -
I have no strong feelings one way or the other... |
Reincarnator
Amarr
Brute Force Missions inc
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:56:00 -
[10]
Wow we can agree on something about the t3s 
oh and /signed
Quote:
You will never quote this sig!
QFT |
Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:57:00 -
[11]
Originally by: HappyKitten
Originally by: Jim McGregor
/
/ Jim McGregor
I just signed it, stupid. 
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
HappyKitten
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.02 19:58:00 -
[12]
/signed makes HK happy 
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 20:00:00 -
[13]
Originally by: HappyKitten
/signed makes HK happy
I try to be different. And nobody gets me. 
Besides, /signed is considered spam and will be treated as such. 
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Stephar
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2006.08.02 20:02:00 -
[14]
20 slots on a tier 3 battleship wouldn't make the tier 1 & 2 obsolete if the tier 3 had a unique role. Furthermore, the cost difference between a tier 1 and tier 3 battleship will be significant.
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Jim McGregor
Caldari
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Posted - 2006.08.02 20:03:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dixon
Originally by: HappyKitten
Originally by: Jim McGregor
/
/ Jim McGregor
he's getting larger!
So they say. :)
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Eve Wiki | Eve Tribune | Eve Pirate |
Testicular Testes
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Posted - 2006.08.02 20:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Stephar
20 slots on a tier 3 battleship wouldn't make the tier 1 & 2 obsolete if the tier 3 had a unique role. Furthermore, the cost difference between a tier 1 and tier 3 battleship will be significant.
19 slots don't detract from it's role - whereas 20 slots detracts from everybody elses role. And the cost difference is unlikely to be enough to justify obsoleting other ships, particularly after insurance.
And there is still little reason to keep going down the bigger/better/more expensive route. It's not doing anyone any favors.
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HappyKitten
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.02 20:14:00 -
[17]
20 slots makes them faction ships for everyone, and that isn't cool.
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Eximius Josari
Shadow Reavers
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Posted - 2006.08.02 20:19:00 -
[18]
The Dominix alone is evidence of why having too many mids/lows is bad.
PS: Give Domi two more highs taking one mid and low.
Victory is the weakness of the enemy. |
Merv Tring
GeoTech
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:02:00 -
[19]
8/7/4 for Caldari and Minmatar! 8/what/ever for Gallente and Amarr!
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Kelhund
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:05:00 -
[20]
/signed
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Kelhund
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:05:00 -
[21]
/signed
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Takahashi Arran
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:10:00 -
[22]
the most sensible suggesstion i've read all day.. Tux you better be reading this
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Stamm
Amarr
GALAXIAN
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:17:00 -
[23]
Going over 19 slots would result in ships that were significantly more powerful than what's out there now. That's going to mix up the balance issues in the game.
Of the 4 new battleships if any do get the magical 20th slot it should be because there's a very good reason for it.
I really don't want to comment on the Gallente, Caldari and Minmatar ones - I don't know enough about them compared to their Tier 1 and Tier 2 siblings.
For the Amarr ship though, the 20th slot if given would be a 'gift' to make up for the nerfed capacitor on the ship, especially if it doesn't get the changes Nyxus has suggested. If it gets the 7 missile launcher slots then really the 20th midslot can't be justified if none of the other races are getting one. If it stays as laser only... well, it'll need the extra slot to compete with the Apoc and Geddon.
There are ships that have more slots and less slots than their racial counterparts. They have those for a reason.
Let's stick to 19 as the amount of slots they get - by all means take a slot off the Tier 1 and Tier 2 ships to give the Tier 3 an advantage - but the 20th slot should only go in if it's for a specific reason to compensate for something else.
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Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:22:00 -
[24]
OP: It's easier to design unique stuff with 20 slots, but that's not the Right PathÖ. Indeed, 19 should be the limit.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
I am happy with 8/5/6 or 8/4/7 for Hyperion though I prefer 8/4/7.
It's a blaster ship, and if there's one thing blaster ships need it's mid slots. Low slots are for tankers (when it comes to ships with high powergrid and low cpu).
Additionally, blaster ships tend to need to do their own tackling since, well, they're there close so why bring punier stuff?
8/5/6
Dark skies torn apart
Heavens open before me
I, the light of death |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:34:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Ithildin
OP: It's easier to design unique stuff with 20 slots, but that's not the Right PathÖ. Indeed, 19 should be the limit.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
I am happy with 8/5/6 or 8/4/7 for Hyperion though I prefer 8/4/7.
It's a blaster ship, and if there's one thing blaster ships need it's mid slots. Low slots are for tankers (when it comes to ships with high powergrid and low cpu).
Additionally, blaster ships tend to need to do their own tackling since, well, they're there close so why bring punier stuff?
8/5/6
MWD, web, scram/disruptor and last 2 slots for dual ECMs or dual sensor boosters or cap injector and tracking disruptor?
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Patience is a quality that most people seem to lack.
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HappyKitten
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:36:00 -
[26]
You need 4 mids on a blasterboat: scram/MWD/web/injector.
A 5th mid would just be a utility: another tackling mod or some EW.
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Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:39:00 -
[27]
Originally by: HappyKitten
You need 4 mids on a blasterboat: scram/MWD/web/injector.
A 5th mid would just be a utility: another tackling mod or some EW.
8/4/7 and 8/5/6 is really a matter of taste though. Rambo style ship is Gallente's theme and a 5th slot may not be necessarily, methinks. Though I prefer 7 but I can go with which ever.
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Patience is a quality that most people seem to lack.
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Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: HappyKitten
You need 4 mids on a blasterboat: scram/MWD/web/injector.
A 5th mid would just be a utility: another tackling mod or some EW.
Yes. I've found that another scrambler or two is too often needed. Although a properly designed blasterboat will be so tight in CPU that a tracking disruptor, let alone an ECM, simply won't fit.
And it's not seldom that we've killed people who should have been able to warp away if they'd only tried due to excessive stabs, oddly enough.
Dark skies torn apart
Heavens open before me
I, the light of death |
Jenny Spitfire
Caldari
LoneStar Industries
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:44:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: HappyKitten
You need 4 mids on a blasterboat: scram/MWD/web/injector.
A 5th mid would just be a utility: another tackling mod or some EW.
Yes. I've found that another scrambler or two is too often needed. Although a properly designed blasterboat will be so tight in CPU that a tracking disruptor, let alone an ECM, simply won't fit.
And it's not seldom that we've killed people who should have been able to warp away if they'd only tried due to excessive stabs, oddly enough.
A 5th slot might make Hyperion a solopwnmobile. But hard to say until we see CPU/grid. I do fly Gallente but I am skeptical about the 5th slot.
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Patience is a quality that most people seem to lack.
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Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
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Posted - 2006.08.02 21:51:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Ithildin
Originally by: HappyKitten
You need 4 mids on a blasterboat: scram/MWD/web/injector.
A 5th mid would just be a utility: another tackling mod or some EW.
Yes. I've found that another scrambler or two is too often needed. Although a properly designed blasterboat will be so tight in CPU that a tracking disruptor, let alone an ECM, simply won't fit.
And it's not seldom that we've killed people who should have been able to warp away if they'd only tried due to excessive stabs, oddly enough.
A 5th slot might make Hyperion a solopwnmobile. But hard to say until we see CPU/grid. I do fly Gallente but I am skeptical about the 5th slot.
In all honesty, having field tested a non-nosDom, I can tell you that even a Dominix, when set up in a way more originally intended, is not a solopwnmobile.
The Hyperion will have a rather large Achille's heel in the fact that it lacks the otherwise typical Gallente drone supremacy. It's main enemy will be Curse, Pilgrim, cookie-cutter Dominix - in fact, just about any setup utilizing large amounts of nosferatus.
An additional weakness is smaller ships. With lower amount of low slots, the possibility of fitting a tank, gank, and WCS setup is decreased severely and thus opens up a vulnerability hole to hit-and-run frigate squads. Cruiser squads should be sturdy enough to deflect whatever defenses the Hyperion'd have, using a wee bit of jamming of course.
Dark skies torn apart
Heavens open before me
I, the light of death |
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