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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1843
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 06:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
Answer #1:) how do you think the ship stays in one piece? With physical braces? HA!
Answer #2:) because their engineers are clearly incompetent at armor tanking or hull tanking!
Answer #3:) they don't actually have shields, but the failing electronics create a static field that makes it difficult for ammunition to get past! Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |

Amarant'h
Fistful of Finns Triumvirate.
27
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 06:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
Clap... clap... |

Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
420
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 06:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Because they see the superiority of Caldari shields are obvious when compared to the amarrian armor tanks and gayllentean hull tanks.
Obviously their attempts at copying superior Caldari systems are not perfect. |

Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon Cynosural Field Theory.
1351
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 06:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
Oh gawd... And that is why test alliance..... TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a di++k joke."-áRobin Williams - RIP
|

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5449
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 06:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
Yo mama so fat, she blubber tanks. Bring back DEEEEP Space! |

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
929
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 06:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
I think someone got into the adult beverage cabinet again. |

Antihrist Pripravnik
T-AFK and counting
692
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 11:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
well, call me a nerd, but I liked #3  o.0 |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Deep Space The ROC
9771
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 12:06:00 -
[8] - Quote
Well, when your ship is held together with duct tape and good intentions, you can't exactly hull or armor tank. Shield is what's left over. "Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."
One of ours, ten of theirs. |

I Love Boobies
All Hail Boobies
1229
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 12:28:00 -
[9] - Quote
I sure hope OP didn't spend more than 5 minutes of their time on making that list. |

Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
1414
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 13:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
Well, that's easy.
Without shields, the sellotape metls too quickly.
Personnel Division Director - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse-á CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
|

Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
6436
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 13:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Because rust makes a poor choice for armor plating.
The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'. |

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5211
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 13:43:00 -
[12] - Quote
My 50k ehp armour Ruppy would like a word with all of you  GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |

Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
1414
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 13:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:My 50k ehp armour Ruppy would like a word with all of you 
HAHA !!!
Never mock the Ruppy !! Dozens of them together in a swarm are cheap and efficient.
Cheap because - let's face it, they are. Efficient because it's so quick to salvage their wrecks.
I jest ofc :)
Nothing wrong with a Shield Ruppy with Arties.
o7 Personnel Division Director - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse-á CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
|

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5214
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 13:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thorn Galen wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:My 50k ehp armour Ruppy would like a word with all of you  HAHA !!! Never mock the Ruppy !! Dozens of them together in a swarm are cheap and efficient. Cheap because - let's face it, they are. Efficient because it's so quick to salvage their wrecks. I jest ofc :) Nothing wrong with a Shield Ruppy with Arties. o7
And fast too, never realised 50k ehp was so... FAST!!! GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |

Anthar Thebess
691
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 14:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:Why do Minmatar shield tank? Because their armor is rusty? Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption Support Needed : Faction Crystal Changes |

Absolutely Not Analt
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
123
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 14:25:00 -
[16] - Quote
There are actually deeply philosophical reasons why the Minmatar ships mostly shield tank. I could explain it to you, but I don't really understand it fully myself. However, if you seek enlightment, then you must consume 1 quart of the blood of the yazar dragon from Hulm, and the walk across the great Desert of Sacrifice wearing nothing but a kilt and a poncho.
Only then will you receive understanding and see the true path to the glorious protection of the shield.
Eve is a multi player game.-áAnd you are the content. - Ralph King-Griffin Being meh at two things is not better than being great at one. - Lugh Crow-Slave
|

RoAnnon
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
489
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 14:47:00 -
[17] - Quote
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:well, call me a nerd, but I liked #3 
You're a nerd.
I too prefer answer #3 
So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter. |

RoAnnon
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
489
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 14:47:00 -
[18] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Quote:Why do Minmatar shield tank? Because their armor is rusty?
No, No, we have armored rust...  So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter. |

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
4676
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:18:00 -
[19] - Quote
Because you only need a single shield generator to create a bubble around a pile of scrap but at least four armor plates for a similar omnidirectional protection. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
5237
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
RoAnnon wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Quote:Why do Minmatar shield tank? Because their armor is rusty? No, No, we have armored rust... 
Wait, I've got this one.
The rust is the armour. GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥ - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |

Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
2774
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:23:00 -
[21] - Quote
They don't have so much duck tape to afford armor tanking. The idea here, to put it in graphic terms for once, is to turn s**t into gold.
http://i.minus.com/ibeZ0sJewvDMBN.gif =ƒÿü |

Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Fidelas Constans
443
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:54:00 -
[22] - Quote
Minmatar are not great at anything but good at everything. R.I.P. Vile Rat |

Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
559
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:55:00 -
[23] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:RoAnnon wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Quote:Why do Minmatar shield tank? Because their armor is rusty? No, No, we have armored rust...  Wait, I've got this one. The rust is the armour.
Rust is a nice, light, ablative layer |

Frostys Virpio
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
1248
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 16:54:00 -
[24] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:RoAnnon wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Quote:Why do Minmatar shield tank? Because their armor is rusty? No, No, we have armored rust...  Wait, I've got this one. The rust is the armour.
As long as it does not fall off like large amount of rust tend to do, it's kind of a layer of oxygen on top of the original pieces. |

Remissus Rinah
Associated Descendants of Eve
31
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 18:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
The mystery of how the Minmatar manage to rust all these ships up so bad in space continues...  ~ Remissus |

Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8201
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 18:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Answer #1:) how do you think the ship stays in one piece? With physical braces? HA!
Answer #2:) because their engineers are clearly incompetent at armor tanking or hull tanking!
Answer #3:) they don't actually have shields, but the failing electronics create a static field that makes it difficult for ammunition to get past!
Answer #4 (from Yang Aurilen):) Because they see that Caldari shields are clearly better than Armarr tanking and Gayllente hull tanking. Clearly, Minmatar absolutely fail at mimicking the efforts of a people who perform labor.
To be honest, Minmatar (former slaves with lower tech ships and projectile weapons) probably should have been armor tankers where as Amarr (the slavers with their badass high tech laz0rs and such) probably should have been the ones with a choice of shields or armor.
But screw the lore anyways lol. |

Zimmy Zeta
Lisa Needs Braces.
47289
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 19:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Answer #1:) how do you think the ship stays in one piece? With physical braces? HA!
Answer #2:) because their engineers are clearly incompetent at armor tanking or hull tanking!
Answer #3:) they don't actually have shields, but the failing electronics create a static field that makes it difficult for ammunition to get past!
Answer #4 (from Yang Aurilen):) Because they see that Caldari shields are clearly better than Armarr tanking and Gayllente hull tanking. Clearly, Minmatar absolutely fail at mimicking the efforts of a people who perform labor. To be honest, Minmatar (former slaves with lower tech ships and projectile weapons) probably should have been armor tankers where as Amarr (the slavers with their badass high tech laz0rs and such) probably should have been the ones with a choice of shields or armor. But screw the lore anyways lol.
I think the initial idea was that Minmatar were supposed to be salvagers and tinkerers who just threw everything they could find together and somehow turned it into spaceships, thus different tanking styles and (in the past) often split weapon systems.
Thinking about it, wouldn't it be nice if Minmatar ships had more calibration points or even one additional rigging slot to reflect their very nature as jury-rigged, improvised spacebuggies?
I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
|

Vyl Vit
767
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 08:19:00 -
[28] - Quote
I suppose you ALLLL think you're pretty damned funny. HA HA HA HA. Anyone with any sense has already left town. |

Cancel Align NOW
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
106
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 08:36:00 -
[29] - Quote
What is funny is how I can hit your ship with a hammer and flakes fall off in the hanger, but I shoot you with my Scorch and the electromagentic disturbance caused by your poorly constructed circuitry absorbs at least 40% of the damage. |

Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
560
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 09:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:What is funny is how I can hit your ship with a hammer and flakes fall off in the hanger, but I shoot you with my Scorch and the electromagentic disturbance caused by your poorly constructed circuitry absorbs at least 40% of the damage.
That sort of proves it isn't poorly constructed now doesn't it  |

Yang Aurilen
The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc
423
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 09:05:00 -
[31] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:RoAnnon wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Quote:Why do Minmatar shield tank? Because their armor is rusty? No, No, we have armored rust...  Wait, I've got this one. The rust is the armour.
You can say minmattar armor has a nice rustic feel to it. |

Snagletooth Johnson
Snagle Material Services CAStabouts
174
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 09:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
Minmatar tried armor tanking, but the bailing wire kept breaking, causing the the pieces to fall and ripping up the duct tape patching up the holes and hence cause them to loose all of their oxygen.
Now they sheild tank, were all they need is a stolen car battery and some wire hangers. |

Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries VOID Intergalactic Forces
128
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 14:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
Minmatar is the hardest to fly as you need gun and missile, armor and shield skills and throw in some drones while your at it "Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mine" -Dr. Smith |

Trii Seo
Sabotage Incorporated Executive Outcomes
662
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 15:43:00 -
[34] - Quote
Because duct-taping a shield emitter salvaged from a busted Drake laying on the side of the space-highway is easier than getting the damn thing plated. Is it Hotdrop O'Clock yet?
Covert pilots unite! Safer working conditions, less accidental limb loss due to unfortunate Cyno accidents! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=258986 |

Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Test Alliance Please Ignore
1847
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 19:21:00 -
[35] - Quote
Cancel Align NOW wrote:What is funny is how I can hit your ship with a hammer and flakes fall off in the hanger, but I shoot you with my Scorch and the electromagentic disturbance caused by your poorly constructed circuitry absorbs at least 40% of the damage. Never underestimate the heat withstanding properties of copious amounts of excess poorly-conductive tritanium-steel wiring. The Minnie engineers KNOW about electrostatic discharge.
P.S. kudos for the spelling: electromaGENtic--Scorch Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. (had this sig BEFORE Odyssey BC rebalance) "What if [climate change is] a big hoax and we create a better world for nothing?" -comic on Greenmonk |

Bullet Anarchy
Venom and Bullet Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 19:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
Why do we tank at all ? when you guys couldn't hit a gas giant at optimal range.  |

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
16823
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 01:25:00 -
[37] - Quote
... because Eve Online has no classification for 'duct tape tanking' so they just file it under 'shield' for laziness' sake.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |

Steppa Musana
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
86
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 01:30:00 -
[38] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:... because Eve Online has no classification for 'duct tape tanking' so they just file it under 'shield' for laziness' sake.
I could have sworn duct-tape tanking was listed as "pre-Kronos hull tanking". |

Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
16823
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 01:53:00 -
[39] - Quote
Steppa Musana wrote: I could have sworn duct-tape tanking was listed as "pre-Kronos hull tanking".
Maybe.
Am I the only one who thinks that Minnie need their own repper sound effect that sounds like a roll of duct tape being pulled? Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |

Amber Lana
Solar Vista. Dead Space Syndicate
18
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 05:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Am I the only one who thinks that Minnie need their own repper sound effect that sounds like a roll of duct tape being pulled?
Agreed, We need this NAO CCP! |

Ssabat Thraxx
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
577
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 05:25:00 -
[41] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Answer #1:) how do you think the ship stays in one piece? With physical braces? HA!
Answer #2:) because their engineers are clearly incompetent at armor tanking or hull tanking!
Answer #3:) they don't actually have shields, but the failing electronics create a static field that makes it difficult for ammunition to get past!
Answer #4 (from Yang Aurilen):) Because they see that Caldari shields are clearly better than Armarr tanking and Gayllente hull tanking. Clearly, Minmatar absolutely fail at mimicking the efforts of a people who perform labor. To be honest, Minmatar (former slaves with lower tech ships and projectile weapons) probably should have been armor tankers where as Amarr (the slavers with their badass high tech laz0rs and such) probably should have been the ones with a choice of shields or armor. But screw the lore anyways lol. I think the initial idea was that Minmatar were supposed to be salvagers and tinkerers who just threw everything they could find together and somehow turned it into spaceships, thus different tanking styles and (in the past) often split weapon systems. Thinking about it, wouldn't it be nice if Minmatar ships had more calibration points or even one additional rigging slot to reflect their very nature as jury-rigged, improvised spacebuggies?
Wouldn't it be nice if we were older?
Then we wouldnt have to wait so long.
A vote for the lesser evil is still a vote for evil.
|

Solecist Project
9989
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 09:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ssabat Thraxx wrote: Wouldn't it be nice if we were older?
Then we wouldnt have to wait so long.
Much to the loss of the other one................ .... who'd prefer a longsr lasting experience....... ;) Quote miiral: 'umm, looks like your "busy" ;)' :3 <---- means you have balls hanging from your nose (: :) |

Dyscordia
Dissident Aggressors Mordus Angels
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 13:01:00 -
[43] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:RoAnnon wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Quote:Why do Minmatar shield tank? Because their armor is rusty? No, No, we have armored rust...  Wait, I've got this one. The rust is the armour.
Oxidized Iron Plating II
|

Zimmy Zeta
Lisa Needs Braces.
47554
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 18:54:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ssabat Thraxx wrote: Wouldn't it be nice if we were older?
Then we wouldnt have to wait so long.
And wouldn't it be nice to live together
In the kind of world where we belong?
I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
|

Bullet Anarchy
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 20:37:00 -
[45] - Quote
We has solar panels and sails, in case we crash land in a tropical ocean somewhere and need to convert it into a raft Just for the cool of it. |
|

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2291

|
Posted - 2014.09.19 12:07:00 -
[46] - Quote
The hull made of sturdy steel beams, the armour thick plated Tungsten, disguised by spray painted rust. And the shields? Just an effect on the sideline.
Because flying my Wolf is electrifying baby! Oh yeah.... ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|

Solecist Project
I'm So Meta Even This Acronym
10090
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 12:44:00 -
[47] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:The hull made of sturdy steel beams ........ ...... the armour ..... ............ thick ....... .......... plated ........... .................. Tungsten .................. I'll be in my Quarters..............
Meta Portrait: umm, looks like youre 'busy', young love, sexual and sensual, soft&warm, OMG naked???, are you kissin or blo..., so much feels, most sexually suggestive pic I've seen. I make it feel real... Dear you-know-who. Don't force me to spread out my mail APIkey and chatlogs. Get off my back already. Thanks. :) |

Bullet Anarchy
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 14:53:00 -
[48] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:Because flying my Wolf is electrifying baby! Oh yeah.... 
What big eyes you have grandmother, spot that wolf a mile away, oxidization in a vacuum ?.
Just for the cool of it. |

Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
1209
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 15:55:00 -
[49] - Quote
Why don't you read some Eve lore and get back to us on that on? Since, you know, you have all kinds of free time since that thing that happened... Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities.-á |

Bullet Anarchy
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 16:21:00 -
[50] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Since, you know, you have all kinds of free time since that thing that happened...
Since I got rid of my Xbox ? Just for the cool of it. |

Opertone
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
307
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 20:54:00 -
[51] - Quote
Becoz nobody buys shield boosters, apart from Caldari. Minmatar clear out the low demand stock at black friday prices. (Because dark skin labour force are only admited to Jita on Fridays, when everybody else has a party) |

Zimmy Zeta
Lisa Needs Braces.
47602
|
Posted - 2014.09.19 20:56:00 -
[52] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:The hull made of sturdy steel beams, the armour thick plated Tungsten, disguised by spray painted rust. And the shields? Just an effect on the sideline. Because flying my Wolf is electrifying baby! Oh yeah.... 
Sorry for nitpicking.. but the armor of a wolf is made of fernite carbide, not tungsten.
Tungsten armor is used on the mobile subjugation vessels of your Amarrian oppressors. I'd like to apologize for the poor quality of the post above and sincerely hope you didn't waste your time reading it. Yes, I do feel bad about it.
|

panterus29
Blame The Bunny The Dark Nation
13
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 00:46:00 -
[53] - Quote
anyone who thinks minmatar dont armor tank have no idea how dense compressed oxides can get  |

Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
4697
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 01:01:00 -
[54] - Quote
panterus29 wrote:anyone who thinks minmatar dont armor tank have no idea how dense compressed oxides can get  We know how dense Minmatar can get if that's any indication. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |

Bullet Anarchy
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 13:42:00 -
[55] - Quote
Opertone wrote: (Because dark skin labour force are only admited to Jita on Fridays, when everybody else has a party)
How unlucky, bet they only go there to watch all the stiffs buzzing round the Caldari Assembly Plant like flies round a dung pile.
Just for the cool of it. |

Rowells
Unknown Soldiers Fidelas Constans
1350
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 14:26:00 -
[56] - Quote
Abrazzar wrote:panterus29 wrote:anyone who thinks minmatar dont armor tank have no idea how dense compressed oxides can get  We know how dense Minmatar can get if that's any indication. Skull tank best tank |

Tusker Crazinski
Missing Clones Syndicate The.Spanish.Inquisition
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 16:00:00 -
[57] - Quote
Because our ships are "mostly" space worthy. right out the Thukker Mix ship yards you could expect several hull breaches, missing rivets, missing plates and airlocks. So stolen shielding systems we're installed to hold the in the atmosphere. unfortunately this exacerbates the chrome and zinc shortages in Matari space so the ships rust in their air bubbles.
at least this is the only rational explanation I have for why Matari ships are rusty, it's not like space has lots of oxidizer sitting around.
serous answers
out side of the ships that are explicitly in the game for ASB monster tanks they really don't. cruisers and BC's get a two slot tank at best. frigs and desies may not even get one. the battleships are just way too derpy ATM. Prop mods are our tanks |

NEONOVUS
Diabolically Sexy Eureka-Secret Science R Us
935
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 19:14:00 -
[58] - Quote
Its not rust, its the softly warm glow of radiating energies After all, having your ship oh instantly would be quite problematic. |
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