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Kaiu
Hinkledolph and K Associates
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:35:00 -
[1]
I've had this debate come up many a time
The non-conformist (anti-establishment?) opinions of mine highlight that 0.0 is lawless and therefore no one can be branded a 'pirate'
You aren't breaking any laws that would enable you to be branded a 'pirate' there are only those that you have 'pirated' to brand you with names... but, honestly, who are they to call you such things?
IMO Piracy is only possible in Empire(low sec), where the laws dictate and the law makers dish out the labels
Discuss?
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Samirol
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:41:00 -
[2]
IMO, you attack anyone without their consent and you are engaging in piracy, however you like to make up excuses for why you are doing it.
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Kaiu
Hinkledolph and K Associates
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:44:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Samirol IMO, you attack anyone without their consent and you are engaging in piracy, however you like to make up excuses for why you are doing it.
But if the space is lawless. . . ?
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Samirol
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:51:00 -
[4]
if you kill someone on the moon, isn't that murder?
assuming that the moon is lawless
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Khal
Beasts of Burden Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:54:00 -
[5]
EVE Piracy simply:
Killing anyone (non-wartarget) 0.5->1.0 ~~~ High-Sec Ganking Killing wartarget 0.5->1.0 ~~~ PVP
Killing anyone (non-wartarget) 0.1->0.4 ~~~ Piracy Killing wartarget 0.1->0.4 ~~~ PVP
Killing anyone (non-wartaget) 0.0 ~~~ PVP Killing wartarget 0.0 ~~~ PVP
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Samirol
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:55:00 -
[6]
ah yes, excluding war targets, forgot to include that
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Eternal Fury
Caldari Brotherhood of Light
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:57:00 -
[7]
Are you killing them to defend your home turf, or to take their turf.. then you are PvPing.
If you are killing them for their kill mail, cargo, their loot drops, or just for a kill for a kill board, then you are a pirate.
Brotherhood of Light. Small Corp, Big Fun. Wanna join? |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.08.03 04:58:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kaiu I've had this debate come up many a time
The non-conformist (anti-establishment?) opinions of mine highlight that 0.0 is lawless and therefore no one can be branded a 'pirate'
You aren't breaking any laws that would enable you to be branded a 'pirate' there are only those that you have 'pirated' to brand you with names... but, honestly, who are they to call you such things?
IMO Piracy is only possible in Empire(low sec), where the laws dictate and the law makers dish out the labels
Discuss?
0.0 just means Concord law does not apply. If you are in an alliance sovereign system and you commit an act of piracy as defined under their law you are a pirate. Of course if they have no law then you are not commiting a crime but that won't stop them shooting you. For some alliances just being there is a crime.
Personally I see it as if somebody attacks a neutral (i.e. non-war) target specifically for profit (loot / ransom) then they are commiting an act of piracy. Whether or not piracy is against the law in that region only decides if they are a criminal or not. For instance a miner is still a miner if mining is illegal or not.
>> RECRUITING << |
sableye
principle of motion
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Posted - 2006.08.03 05:06:00 -
[9]
Edited by: sableye on 03/08/2006 05:07:12 I view piracy as atacking neutral ship in 0.1-0.4 I also view piracy as nbsi outisde of your claimed space.
In 0.0 your right theres's no written rules of conduct but the local allainces do make rules that mean if you come in shooting and not in emeny allaince your classed as pirate this is good thing in my eyes as it gives 0.0 pirates a role other than being just I will shoot anything, I'll offfer tundrgaon (Ikow spelled wrong) a an example they operated in 0.0 and often came into contact with norad but were always honarable but there was no denying they were pirates and thats what they wanted to be knownn as even if 0.0 technically had no rules.
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Humble Voh
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Posted - 2006.08.03 05:15:00 -
[10]
I'm not trying to be rude at all, but I would guess you are American. You're assuming that the law defines piracy, not what people think or feel. For me (an English/Irishman settled in Nihon) what defines piracy, or any other act, is that piracy is when you attack another ship without provocation and steal their gear. The 'law' is irrelevant.
Again, I'm just trying to analyse your argument, and not be rude, but in America at least (of course you could be from Guinea Bisao and I look even dumber than usual) this way of thinking is actually very normal and, unfortunately, quite establishment.
This is not a signature
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Hinkledolph
Hinkledolph and K Associates
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Posted - 2006.08.03 05:36:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Humble Voh I'm not trying to be rude at all, but I would guess you are American. You're assuming that the law defines piracy, not what people think or feel. For me (an English/Irishman settled in Nihon) what defines piracy, or any other act, is that piracy is when you attack another ship without provocation and steal their gear. The 'law' is irrelevant.
Again, I'm just trying to analyse your argument, and not be rude, but in America at least (of course you could be from Guinea Bisao and I look even dumber than usual) this way of thinking is actually very normal and, unfortunately, quite establishment.
This is not a signature
Actually Kaiu is from England ;P
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Sul Sonic
Caldari Viper Intel Squad Pure.
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Posted - 2006.08.03 06:03:00 -
[12]
To take something from someone that is not rightfully yours is piracy. So in 0 sec space, someone can still own something, and you can still take it, and that goes anywhere. However, requiring a tax to go through a gate is an excersize of soveirgnty, and therefore not piracy.
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Samirol
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2006.08.03 06:05:00 -
[13]
bad generalizations about americans is ftl
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S'Tzun Kaa
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.03 07:01:00 -
[14]
It's piracy only if you say "Yarr!".
Otherwise it's rampant destruction of property and persona for personal gain.
My two ISK.
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Shaikar
Amarr
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Posted - 2006.08.03 07:51:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Shaikar on 03/08/2006 07:52:06
Well, when you get down to it it is piracy if and when any of the recognised governments or CONCORD (ie he government via CONCORD) say it is.
It's not a good comparision but it's the only one we have - real life.
Quote: The UN, they say Article101
Definition of piracy:
Piracy consists of any of the following acts:
(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:
(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;
(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;
(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;
(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).
Article102
Piracy by a warship, government ship or government aircraft whose crew has mutinied:
The acts of piracy, as defined in article 101, committed by a warship, government ship or government aircraft whose crew has mutinied and taken control of the ship or aircraft are assimilated to acts committed by a private ship or aircraft.
Article103
Definition of a pirate ship or aircraft:
A ship or aircraft is considered a pirate ship or aircraft if it is intended by the persons in dominant control to be used for the purpose of committing one of the acts referred to in article 101. The same applies if the ship or aircraft has been used to commit any such act, so long as it remains under the control of the persons guilty of that act.
So by that measure if you attack someone you do not have legal sanction to attack (ie are either a government ship following orders (you're not) or are legally at war with your target), you are by defintion a pirate.
Assumming CONCORD has the same piracy laws as the UN and all the Empires have similar piracy laws as well of course (if you ae in their space).
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TuRtLe HeAd
Apocalypse Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.03 09:11:00 -
[16]
Easy someone who kills for profit, pillages for profit.
A pirate wants whats on your ship. They will kill you to get it.
Not to be confused with a kidnapper, which is someone that holds you hostage for money or other reward. |
ROF''''''''''''''''''''L
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Posted - 2006.08.03 09:18:00 -
[17]
Edited by: ROF''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''L on 03/08/2006 09:24:00 pirates-gankers antipirates-selective gankers empire wardeccers- selective gankers 0.0pvpers NBSI- selective gankers
you call people pirates when you want justification for attacking, its all just politics. when a gang in 0.0 alliance A sets off to attack alliance B and gank NPCers they are at war with, its somehow not piracy. ________________
I am the more harmless sort of alt. I only come on to post to ask questions. 99% of alts give alts a bad name. I am that 1%.
I AM THE WALRUUUUUUUSSSSSSSSSSSS.
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.08.03 09:47:00 -
[18]
Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Easy someone who kills for profit, pillages for profit.
A pirate wants whats on your ship. They will kill you to get it.
Not to be confused with a kidnapper, which is someone that holds you hostage for money or other reward.
That's as good a summing up as we're ever likely to get.
Piracy is about stealing. Stealing may or may not be legal - if there are no laws at all, it's hard to see how it CAN be illegal - but it's still an act of piracy.
If you're killing in order to kill, or in order to protect an area of space (whether it's your sovereignty or not), this is not piracy under the normal sense of the term. ________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Laythun
Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed
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Posted - 2006.08.03 09:52:00 -
[19]
Yaarrr
and smack talk in local
See You In Space Cowboy |
Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.08.03 09:53:00 -
[20]
Originally by: ROF''''''''''''''''''''L ..alliance A sets off to attack alliance B and gank NPCers they are at war with, its somehow not piracy.
Like you said, it's war. Not piracy.
As for the comment above, taking ISK at gates as a toll is not piracy in your space. If somebody else came and did it in your space they have commited an act of piracy?
The key thing is to seperate piracy from legality. Privateers were basicly legal pirates due to their target restrictions and Letter of Marque.
>> RECRUITING << |
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Baldour Ngarr
Artemis Rising
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:03:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
The key thing is to seperate piracy from legality. Privateers were basicly legal pirates due to their target restrictions and Letter of Marque.
They're privateers if they're on your side; they're pirates if they work for the enemy. Try asking the Spanish if what Drake did was legal ________________________________________________
"I tried strip mining, but I lost, and it's cold flying around in space naked." |
Sral TBear
Space Vikings
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:06:00 -
[22]
The easy way is deffently the kill anyone your not at war with = your a piwate.... but i doent think its that easy, but it depends on how you your self a thinking about this...
For me its pretty simple
Pirates: Players that realy try to make a living doing this. They have honnor, and even after a kill they are pretty nice on local and is simply trying to live like any other player just with a "interesting way" for a pay check (they are few in numbers, mostly solo but great guys)
Piwates: Well no matter what, your nothing but a name on a kill board, and they want you on the kill board. They doent do mucth solo, they gank people with no interest in isk or loot, they have egos to boost, not a wallet, loot is just a bonus ( i have to say most "dark" dudes are in here)
Raiders: Corporations that doent have the 100% PVP, but some have a few "non war" enemys they go after once in a while in low sec. Normaly not engaging noobs, or corporations they have worked with before or friends they have made in there eve time. Waiting time can make you restless and then some inocents might fall to the hammer, but in general just doing the killing to show the flag have a couple of hours of fun and then they are of again back to missions / mining etc (pretty mucth all corporations do this abit)
And yes, i have killed a few inocents, but sometimes waiting time simply gets to you....But i doent count my self either a pirate (not in the same leage as these dudes)or a piwate (have to mutch to do other than griefing people for kill mails) but i do se my self as a Raider...
TBear out
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Izo Azlion
Veto.
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Khal EVE Piracy simply:
Killing anyone (non-wartarget) 0.5->1.0 ~~~ High-Sec Ganking Killing wartarget 0.5->1.0 ~~~ PVP
Killing anyone (non-wartarget) 0.1->0.4 ~~~ Piracy Killing wartarget 0.1->0.4 ~~~ PVP
Killing anyone (non-wartaget) 0.0 ~~~ PVP Killing wartarget 0.0 ~~~ PVP
"z0mg I shot mining laz0r at a guy in 0.4! that makes me a pirate!"
No.
Piracy is the art of holding someone for ransom, doing things for the money or loot. I dont kill for just ****s and giggles, although there are many to be had, but Piracy is definatly not just none consensual PvP in low sec.
Izo Azlion.
--- Veto.
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Lok Ta'car
Gallente Digital Foundry Galaxia Union
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Posted - 2006.08.03 10:40:00 -
[24]
You argue that it is not piracy when in 0.0 becuase there is no concord law, what about the laws of society... is there no society in 0.0?
There is no definition(that I know of) of an "emo" in any law or government documentation but everyone knows an emo when they see one.
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Telemicus Thrace
Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2006.08.03 11:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
The key thing is to seperate piracy from legality. Privateers were basicly legal pirates due to their target restrictions and Letter of Marque.
They're privateers if they're on your side; they're pirates if they work for the enemy. Try asking the Spanish if what Drake did was legal
It was under English law! Yarrrr! Burn Cadiz!!!
*cough*
That's the thing, they were still pirates albeit ones that would only attack enemy shipping and were immune from prosecution by the Crown. The term Privateer was used to distinguish them from the bad sort of pirates, the ones that shoot at our ships.
Legal piracy vs illegal piracy but still both piracy.
>> RECRUITING << |
Masu'di
Es and Whizz
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Posted - 2006.08.03 11:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Izo Azlion Piracy is the art of holding someone for ransom
Ransoming does play an important part of piracy, but it's not exclusive to piracy. Ransoming has a lot of its roots in medieval warfare where generals and nobles would be captured, treated with respect, but made to pay a ransom for their release.
I'm determined one day to take a pod home with me, show him round the house, feed him, and then release him for a small fee.
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Nicholas Barker
Caldari Rampage Eternal
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Posted - 2006.08.03 13:07:00 -
[27]
Pirates are those who attack others without political motivation. Alliance members attack others for the defence of their space usually under the NBSI (not blue shoot it) policy, if you're blue you're a friend, if you're red you're an enemy, and if you're nutral, you're a red spy/noob scout. 0.0 is "lawless" but alliances usually project rules on their members to stop them blowing up anybody they feel like (nbsi). Pirates arn't defending their space, they're just hunting people to nick the stuff that's left behind in the drop can, or to ransom people. -------------------------------------
Xelios and his uber skillz |
Ichabod Dirange
Iscariot Enterprises
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Posted - 2006.08.03 13:23:00 -
[28]
Any unforseen attack is an act of piracy, if you're known enemies of acknowledged governing bodies or corporations with other main objectives then it's a skirmish or act of war, if it's a random attack of oppertunistic unknowns then it'd be piracy.
Declared known pirates would have no problem with all their engagements being chalked down to piracy.
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Kaiu
Hinkledolph and K Associates
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Posted - 2006.08.03 14:12:00 -
[29]
If the area of 0.0 is lawless
There is no 'society'
There are no rules, because no one has claimed the area of space or attempts to defend it...
Then you happen across another random pilot out in space, surveying or taking holiday snaps of 'that pretty moon'
You engage him, before he has the chance to shoot first. Its basic survival. You aren't foaming at the mouthing eyeing up the scans of his ships sexy modules... you are just doing what might be needed to survive.
You destroy his ship, pod him.
No one else is in that sector, region or within a gazillion light years from your location.
Did you commit an act of piracy? Who labeled you as a pirate?
Your own conscience?
If a tree falls and there is no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?
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Ifni
Developmental Neogenics Amalgamated
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Posted - 2006.08.03 16:02:00 -
[30]
Piracy. Who, huh, what?
It'syour turn to die. |
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