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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
37
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Posted - 2014.09.18 13:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
With T2 prices stabilizing. How much did you lose on your T2 bpo's?
Ibfr the usualy whinies: The once you bought between 5 years ago and 2 months ago? (and ofc the resellers with hugh stocks) |
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
37
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Posted - 2014.09.18 13:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
I will start off: -40b in value and -1,4b a month! |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
391
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Posted - 2014.09.18 15:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Trin Javidan wrote:I will start off: -40b in value and -1,4b a month!
wow.. i was tempted to jump on some but damn. sorry about your loss. |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
340
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Posted - 2014.09.18 16:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
Trin Javidan wrote:With T2 prices stabilizing. How much did you lose on your T2 bpo's?
Ibfr the usualy whinies: The once you bought between 5 years ago and 2 months ago? (and ofc the resellers with hugh stocks)
So, I guess that means you had a stockpile of something that suddenly vanished into thin air?
I'm trying to understand this because to my way of thinking "making less ISK" is not equivalent to "Losing ISK". I'm making less isk too. It only feels like a loss if you emotionally compare it to an irrational frame of reference.
I am not aware of any T2 module that you can't make a "profit" on, even with invention. If you have a T2 BPO it's still an isk printing machine. Maybe it just runs a little slower now.
T- |
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
391
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Posted - 2014.09.18 19:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Trin Javidan wrote:With T2 prices stabilizing. How much did you lose on your T2 bpo's?
Ibfr the usualy whinies: The once you bought between 5 years ago and 2 months ago? (and ofc the resellers with hugh stocks) So, I guess that means you had a stockpile of something that suddenly vanished into thin air? I'm trying to understand this because to my way of thinking "making less ISK" is not equivalent to "Losing ISK". I'm making less isk too. It only feels like a loss if you emotionally compare it to an irrational frame of reference. I am not aware of any T2 module that you can't make a "profit" on, even with invention. If you have a T2 BPO it's still an isk printing machine. Maybe it just runs a little slower now. T-
I assumed she was talking about opportunity cost. Although measuring opportunity cost using 20/20 hindsight is not necessarily meaningful i suppose. |
Ocih
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
746
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Posted - 2014.09.18 19:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Someone showed me a three run Ishtar BPC a few days ago, I ran the market numbers and it was still cheaper to buy, rather than make.
If I use that as my foundation I'd say BPO holders are in good shape as the math I used to determine that didn't include invention of the BPC he had.
Any cost tied to BPO is tied to all invention/ manufacturing. You still don't need to buy a lot of parts people without BPOs need to buy.
- I'm not complaining. I'm just being realistic about how I obtain assets and most of them I will obtain from a BPO holder. |
Mr Omniblivion
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
77
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Posted - 2014.09.18 21:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
It's an equity loss. If you bought a T2 BPO two years ago for 100bil, that same BPO is maybe worth 10-20bil now in terms of recouping your cost. So the net equity loss of the BPO would be 80-90 bil ISK in just that one BPO. Sure, you're still making revenue off of it, but the reason T2 BPOs were desirable is that they held their value and provided consistent income.
Now, especially with the recent invention changes announced (with crit successes), the "profitability value" of T2 BPOs will fall even further.
Basically- unless you're a collector that thinks it's cool to have T2 BPOs, you're pretty much hosed as they are just going to continue to lose value. Even selling them now is dicey because of the announced invention changes (unless you can offload them to someone who doesn't read the forums, where CCP effectively said they want to phase out T2 BPOs). |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
340
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Posted - 2014.09.19 14:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:
I assumed she was talking about opportunity cost. Although measuring opportunity cost using 20/20 hindsight is not necessarily meaningful i suppose.
Oh probably, now that you put it like that.
One thing that you'll realise if you play this game long enough is that CCP will throw curve balls. It's not unintended. The game is a sand box and they're not adverse to ploughing it up from time to time. Part of what I love about this game is that they don't let it get in a rut forever.
A la..... This can especially affect the market so my conclusion would be that the market is no place for autistics.
If you're autistic go run missions. Seriously.
T- |
Ria Nieyli
20858
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Posted - 2014.09.19 15:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tinu Moorhsum wrote:Dream Five wrote:
I assumed she was talking about opportunity cost. Although measuring opportunity cost using 20/20 hindsight is not necessarily meaningful i suppose.
Oh probably, now that you put it like that. One thing that you'll realise if you play this game long enough is that CCP will throw curve balls. It's not unintended. The game is a sand box and they're not adverse to ploughing it up from time to time. Part of what I love about this game is that they don't let it get in a rut forever. A la..... This can especially affect the market so my conclusion would be that the market is no place for autistics. If you're autistic go run missions. Seriously. T-
Dude, what the...
Ontopic, are people dumping their BPOs? Mirrored eyes |
Tinu Moorhsum
Random Events
340
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Posted - 2014.09.19 16:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ria Nieyli wrote: Dude, what the...
Ontopic, are people dumping their BPOs?
They do come up on contracts but people who own them have a very pregnant idea of what they are worth.
If you actually run the numbers then it will often take up to 10 years (real life) to pay for it. People think they are buying an isk printing machine, and they are, but they have to consider how long it will take to print the isk to cover the investment.... which they don't.
The situation has only become worse lately. Removing the copy bottle neck basically means that invention renders all T2 BPO's more or less irrelevant. The OP is moaning about this because they feel that this is not fair. But is is fair.... for 99.999999% of eve players. Owners of T2 BPO's are the exception.
I say ... Fk them. They've had their cake and ate it too... Now it's time to level the playing field and if they moan about it then it only causes me to smile. The op said that they lost 40bil in opportunity cost.
Good
Only sad that it wasn't 100 billion. I have no sympathy for him.
T-
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
404
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Posted - 2014.09.19 19:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
I'd just like to point out that if someone lost 100b on their t2 BPO it was probably worth a couple hundred billion anyway. No big deal for most I'd guess. It's only a game anyway :). .
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5504
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Posted - 2014.09.19 21:54:00 -
[12] - Quote
It's 5+ years T2 BPOs are a "bubble" waiting to burst.
Those who opted to buying them ignoring the consequences, have only themselves to blame. Those who did not ignore the consequences, are rich enough not to care. Actually, they probably hold them since so long that by now they have repaid the investment anyway. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
58
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Posted - 2014.09.20 00:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
I do not own a T2 bpo, have no idea what nerfs have hit them recently but when I joined EVE 5 years ago and looked at the going rates for those bpo's I realized quickly that they were way overpriced back then and you'd have to spend a LOT of time and effort to break even. Given that stuff tends to change in MMO's in general, the investment never seemed worth it to me. |
Noferatu
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2014.09.20 23:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Is this to do with the industry changes, or the very recent inference that CCP are going to "address" T2 BPO's "soontm" because they're unhappy with them? My apologies, I can't recall the thread but I definitely read a very recent comment from a Dev that this was on the cards.. Perhaps someone else could provide the link? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
579
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Posted - 2014.09.21 06:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Trin Javidan wrote:With T2 prices stabilizing. How much did you lose on your T2 bpo's? It's too early to tell.
On one side, I'd expect to take at least a 200B haircut if I tried to part with my T2 BPO collection right now.
On the other side, the profitability of my collection is up 250% on pre-crius.
CCP Greyscale had the odd philosophy of ignoring T2 BPOs for the purpose of BPO balancing, so he ended up massively buffing some T2 BPOs and massively nerfing others. As a result of this, invention got nerfed into the ground on some items. A strange thing to do, particularly since it was directly at odds with their stated aims.
Before Crius it would have been perfectly viable for CCP to follow a sensible plan of iterating invention to make it not awful and balancing all the T2 end products so that there aren't any dud items that nobody uses. This would have made T2 BPOs a non-issue for inventors without actually removing or gutting them. That would be a fairly uncontroversial win-win for inventors, T2 BPO owners and CCP. It would also have been consistent with the ongoing balancing effort. But the Crius changes appear to have made this work harder and more urgent.
So either CCP Greyscale's approach is short sighted and incoherent, in that he's made his own life harder with the Crius changes, or CCP Greyscale's approach is short sighted and incoherent, in that he's planning to remove/gut T2 BPOs and face the alienation of loyal entrenched players, the dumbing down of industry and the undermining of a fairly unique and interesting part of EVE's sandbox economy. In the face of that it's hard to be optimistic, but I'm still hoping that when CCP reveal their actual plans they are better than currently expected.
For me, after the discussion at the fanfest industry panel that kicked this all off, I've had the most significant motivation to participate in EVE's industry system removed. It's not because my T2 BPO collection is in peril, but because I now have far fewer options for longer term investment of the profits generated by my activities. I've got very little motivation to make more isk than I already have, because when I ask myself the question: "What am I going to do with another XXXB isk", the answer is sadly to "Buy more PLEX" or "Add it to the big pile of idle isk". That's a lot less compelling than growing my collection of T2 BPOs. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5504
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Posted - 2014.09.21 09:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: So either CCP Greyscale's approach is short sighted and incoherent, in that he's made his own life harder with the Crius changes, or CCP Greyscale's approach is short sighted and incoherent, in that he's planning to remove/gut T2 BPOs and face the alienation of loyal entrenched players, the dumbing down of industry and the undermining of a fairly unique and interesting part of EVE's sandbox economy. In the face of that it's hard to be optimistic, but I'm still hoping that when CCP reveal their actual plans they are better than currently expected.
Sadly CCP Greyscale is just like that, however strong I try to agree with what he does to EvE I just can't.
It's like: my vision <====================================> his vision.
Bad Bobby wrote: For me, after the discussion at the fanfest industry panel that kicked this all off, I've had the most significant motivation to participate in EVE's industry system removed. It's not because my T2 BPO collection is in peril, but because I now have far fewer options for longer term investment of the profits generated by my activities. I've got very little motivation to make more isk than I already have, because when I ask myself the question: "What am I going to do with another XXXB isk", the answer is sadly to "Buy more PLEX" or "Add it to the big pile of idle isk". That's a lot less compelling than growing my collection of T2 BPOs.
It's the same for me. I don't like EvE combat model (I prefer a "space SIM approach with dogfights, destroyable single turrets on capital ships" a la X-Wing basically). I have really tried PvPing and stuff, I just don't find the "submarine sim" or the "click to lead ship" fight model fun. So all I have got is industry and markets.
Can't be really arsed with industry because it does not even compare with trading (I am talking about :effort: vs :money: not just :money:, can make plenty with industry!).
Can't be really arsed with trading because I don't know what to do with all those hundreds of billions. Yes I can't even compare with say Mynna but... I don't have to take care of the biggest alliance either.
It's me and uber-massive ISK I could use to PLEX my subs for decades...
... and all I can do to give a sense to that, is to wait to give away ISK to PLEX for Good initiatives.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
579
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Posted - 2014.09.21 10:36:00 -
[17] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:... and all I can do to give a sense to that, is to wait to give away ISK to PLEX for Good initiatives. That bothers me though, because I don't want my enjoyment and motivation in game to be dependant on the suffering of real life people.
Sure, if I ever do decide to completely quit EVE I will absolutely be liquidating everything and throwing the lot at PLEX For Good, but for now I'd rather have CCP stop persistently undermining all the limited edition content that I and others like to collect.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5505
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Posted - 2014.09.21 16:36:00 -
[18] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:... and all I can do to give a sense to that, is to wait to give away ISK to PLEX for Good initiatives. That bothers me though, because I don't want my enjoyment and motivation in game to be dependant on the suffering of real life people. Sure, if I ever do decide to completely quit EVE I will absolutely be liquidating everything and throwing the lot at PLEX For Good,
Well, your "enjoyment and motivation in game to be dependant on the suffering of real life people" does not exactly sound in a way I am after.
I'd just like to be able to have a purpose... well... this is a great teaching about life actually.
It's teaching about how empty and meaningless is to live to build untold riches... The road up there is engaging, but then you discover how the run was quite pointless.
"OK, I have been good and now I have a lot of digits stored on a database. So what now?" At least in RL one can entertrain himself a bit with wordly occupations, before getting bored in the same way.
Bad Bobby wrote: I'd rather have CCP stop persistently undermining all the limited edition content that I and others like to collect.
Don't get me started about this. I am litigating with another MMO's lead designer who has decided that the super-rare items I got in 12 years of playing should be re-introduced in game and made avaliable for everyone to farm in quantity.
He should be hired by CCP, he got the same bright ideas to make veterans quit the game as fast as possible.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
458
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Posted - 2014.09.21 21:57:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Don't get me started about this. I am litigating with another MMO's lead designer who has decided that the super-rare items I got in 12 years of playing should be re-introduced in game and made avaliable for everyone to farm in quantity.
hahahahahahaha
holy shit |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
175
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Posted - 2014.09.21 22:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: The profitability of my collection is up 250% on pre-crius. Is this due to an increase in production throughput, or profit margin?
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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
829
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Posted - 2014.09.21 22:10:00 -
[21] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Don't get me started about this. I am litigating with another MMO's lead designer who has decided that the super-rare items I got in 12 years of playing should be re-introduced in game and made avaliable for everyone to farm in quantity.
He should be hired by CCP, he got the same bright ideas to make veterans quit the game as fast as possible.
sorry what
could we get a little more detail on this, what mmo and what exactly do you mean by "litigating" |
Shiloh Templeton
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
175
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Posted - 2014.09.21 22:14:00 -
[22] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I'd just like to be able to have a(n in-game) purpose. What do you think of purposes like Gevlon trying to finance a war, or James 315 funding High-Sec ganking with their excess Isk?
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Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
458
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Posted - 2014.09.21 22:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
please let it be "literally trying to sue in a court of law" |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
458
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Posted - 2014.09.21 22:17:00 -
[24] - Quote
as you can see your honor the defendant has clearly reneged on his promise to maintain the value of plaintiff's pixels stored on defendant's servers and furthermore |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
458
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Posted - 2014.09.21 22:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
as such i believe the desired damages of 10,000,000 everquest plat are reasonable and justified |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
5505
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Posted - 2014.09.21 22:39:00 -
[26] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote: Don't get me started about this. I am litigating with another MMO's lead designer who has decided that the super-rare items I got in 12 years of playing should be re-introduced in game and made avaliable for everyone to farm in quantity.
He should be hired by CCP, he got the same bright ideas to make veterans quit the game as fast as possible.
sorry what could we get a little more detail on this, what mmo and what exactly do you mean by "litigating"
It's an ancient game (older than EvE) whose playerbase by now has shrunk enough that it's possible for a player to get a reply by a game designer. I have made its name in the past (and my EvE POSes are named after it) but now I feel like protecting its slow death so it'll happen in peace, without some EvE players going to troll them.
Shiloh Templeton wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:I'd just like to be able to have a(n in-game) purpose. What do you think of purposes like Gevlon trying to finance a war, or James 315 funding High-Sec ganking with their excess Isk?
Been there, done that (on a smaller scale) and now I CBA doing it again.
BTW, if you are reading this (aimed to a MD guy, he knows who he is ), my offer to $upport your alliance is still valid Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
580
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Posted - 2014.09.22 04:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Shiloh Templeton wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: The profitability of my collection is up 250% on pre-crius. Is this due to an increase in production throughput, or profit margin? A large amount of increased production throughput, a small amount of increased profit margin.
Prices are still falling though, so it's a very temporary buff. |
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
38
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Posted - 2014.09.22 11:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
While we're at it anyway, looking at the history of game implenmentations, current ones and the plex prices; i think ccp's operation "Old isk cleansing" is well under way. If it isnt achievable by clothes, hyperinflation- & deflation by gamedesign will do the job $$ +1 for CCP! |
Lucas Kell
Internet Terrorists SpaceMonkey's Alliance
4275
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Posted - 2014.09.22 14:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
Hey man, you dropped some tinfoil there. The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog. Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list. Chrysus Industries - Savings made simple!
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine In Tea We Trust
580
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Posted - 2014.09.22 16:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Trin Javidan wrote:While we're at it anyway, looking at the history of game implenmentations, current ones and the plex prices; i think ccp's operation "Old isk cleansing" is well under way. If it isnt achievable by clothes, hyperinflation- & deflation by gamedesign will do the job $$ +1 for CCP! I will see your tinfoil and raise you my diversified portfolio. |
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