I will start off: -40b in value and -1,4b a month!

With T2 prices stabilizing. How much did you lose on your T2 bpo's?

Ibfr the usualy whinies: The once you bought between 5 years ago and 2 months ago? (and ofc the resellers with hugh stocks)

So, I guess that means you had a stockpile of something that suddenly vanished into thin air?

I'm trying to understand this because to my way of thinking "making less ISK" is not equivalent to "Losing ISK". I'm making less isk too. It only feels like a loss if you emotionally compare it to an irrational frame of reference.

I am not aware of any T2 module that you can't make a "profit" on, even with invention. If you have a T2 BPO it's still an isk printing machine. Maybe it just runs a little slower now.

T-

I assumed she was talking about opportunity cost. Although measuring opportunity cost using 20/20 hindsight is not necessarily meaningful i suppose.

Oh probably, now that you put it like that.

One thing that you'll realise if you play this game long enough is that CCP will throw curve balls. It's not unintended. The game is a sand box and they're not adverse to ploughing it up from time to time. Part of what I love about this game is that they don't let it get in a rut forever.

A la..... This can especially affect the market so my conclusion would be that the market is no place for autistics.

If you're autistic go run missions. Seriously.

T-

Dude, what the...

Ontopic, are people dumping their BPOs?

With T2 prices stabilizing. How much did you lose on your T2 bpo's?

So either CCP Greyscale's approach is short sighted and incoherent, in that he's made his own life harder with the Crius changes, or CCP Greyscale's approach is short sighted and incoherent, in that he's planning to remove/gut T2 BPOs and face the alienation of loyal entrenched players, the dumbing down of industry and the undermining of a fairly unique and interesting part of EVE's sandbox economy. In the face of that it's hard to be optimistic, but I'm still hoping that when CCP reveal their actual plans they are better than currently expected.

For me, after the discussion at the fanfest industry panel that kicked this all off, I've had the most significant motivation to participate in EVE's industry system removed. It's not because my T2 BPO collection is in peril, but because I now have far fewer options for longer term investment of the profits generated by my activities. I've got very little motivation to make more isk than I already have, because when I ask myself the question: "What am I going to do with another XXXB isk", the answer is sadly to "Buy more PLEX" or "Add it to the big pile of idle isk". That's a lot less compelling than growing my collection of T2 BPOs.

... and all I can do to give a sense to that, is to wait to give away ISK to PLEX for Good initiatives.

That bothers me though, because I don't want my enjoyment and motivation in game to be dependant on the suffering of real life people.

Sure, if I ever do decide to completely quit EVE I will absolutely be liquidating everything and throwing the lot at PLEX For Good,

I'd rather have CCP stop persistently undermining all the limited edition content that I and others like to collect.

Don't get me started about this. I am litigating with another MMO's lead designer who has decided that the super-rare items I got in 12 years of playing should be re-introduced in game and made avaliable for everyone to farm in quantity.

The profitability of my collection is up 250% on pre-crius.

Don't get me started about this. I am litigating with another MMO's lead designer who has decided that the super-rare items I got in 12 years of playing should be re-introduced in game and made avaliable for everyone to farm in quantity.

He should be hired by CCP, he got the same bright ideas to make veterans quit the game as fast as possible.

I'd just like to be able to have a(n in-game) purpose.

sorry what

could we get a little more detail on this, what mmo and what exactly do you mean by "litigating"

What do you think of purposes like Gevlon trying to finance a war, or James 315 funding High-Sec ganking with their excess Isk?

Is this due to an increase in production throughput, or profit margin?

While we're at it anyway, looking at the history of game implenmentations, current ones and the plex prices; i think ccp's operation "Old isk cleansing" is well under way. If it isnt achievable by clothes, hyperinflation- & deflation by gamedesign will do the job $$ +1 for CCP!

They do come up on contracts but people who own them have a very pregnant idea of what they are worth.

If you actually run the numbers then it will often take up to 10 years (real life) to pay for it. People think they are buying an isk printing machine, and they are, but they have to consider how long it will take to print the isk to cover the investment.... which they don't.

The situation has only become worse lately. Removing the copy bottle neck basically means that invention renders all T2 BPO's more or less irrelevant. The OP is moaning about this because they feel that this is not fair. But is is fair.... for 99.999999% of eve players. Owners of T2 BPO's are the exception.

I say ... Fk them. They've had their cake and ate it too... Now it's time to level the playing field and if they moan about it then it only causes me to smile. The op said that they lost 40bil in opportunity cost.

Good

Only sad that it wasn't 100 billion. I have no sympathy for him.

T-

The world is not a fair place, and EVE shouldn't be either. This attitude where everyone should be on the same level and have the same whatever is killing this game. If you want to have the most fun, fly the best ships, have the most isk, then you need to put the time and energy into building your empire to support it. Begging CCP to gut those who did in order to make your game easier because you couldn't be bothered to plan or prep to that level is flat out bullshizz IMO. I don't even have anything to that level. I just can't stand people who want to burn down others who planned, prepped and sacrificed a lot more than they did. You should instead be researching, planning, prepping and sacrificing the things you need to in order to work towards that level, not whining to daddy to eliminate that level since you're too lazy to do what's needed to get there and realize you won't get there because you don't have what it takes.....

Except that's not really how it went down. T2 BPOs were "randomly" distributed by GMs to their friends, then cancelled as an idea. At that point they should have been removed. They weren't so people have continued to trade them at ludicrous prices way above what they can make and now there's tears because the redundant system they were basing all of their profit on is going to come crashing down.

And the thing is, noone is saying things should be fair as in "everyone must have the same stuff", but it should be fair as in "everyone should be able to work to achieve the same". I bet you weren't complaining when the fac five were being stripped of LP, isk and items for what was at the time of their execution not an exploit. In the same way, CCP should just get rid of T2 BPOs. Some people will lose out, sure, but that's tough luck for investing in illegitimate and deprecated items.

The world is not a fair place, and EVE shouldn't be either. This attitude where everyone should be on the same level and have the same whatever is killing this game. If you want to have the most fun, fly the best ships, have the most isk, then you need to put the time and energy into building your empire to support it. Begging CCP to gut those who did in order to make your game easier because you couldn't be bothered to plan or prep to that level is flat out bullshizz IMO. I don't even have anything to that level. I just can't stand people who want to burn down others who planned, prepped and sacrificed a lot more than they did. You should instead be researching, planning, prepping and sacrificing the things you need to in order to work towards that level, not whining to daddy to eliminate that level since you're too lazy to do what's needed to get there and realize you won't get there because you don't have what it takes.....

However... and this is the point with respect to T2 BPO's, I believe that every team, no matter when they started playing EVE should have the same potential end-game in sight as all other teams. Of course they have to earn it, of course they have to want it, of course they have to work for it. But that's not the case with T2 BPO's. Either you got one in the lottery (or the dev fraud) or you didn't.

BPOs are not "Bind on Pickup". You could buy them and get "the same potential end-game" etc. etc.
Many who started playing well past T2 BPOs lottery had been "phased out" still got their BPOs fill.

The BPOs were left in the game, arguing that people who have them are baddies for going that legitimate route is nonsensical. Also, as for your comparison to others losing stuff, I don't even know who you're talking about, but I will state that the same logic I mentioned above should apply. If something wasn't a declared exploit then people who did it up until the point it was declared should not be punished. I agree with you on that front. You seem to be picking and choosing your POV based on personal feelings and applying opposing sides on a case to case basis, then projecting that flaw onto me. Don't do that, it makes you look like a tool. Also, I'm aware of how the original T2 BPO distribution occurred, I played this game at that time, though on older characters I no longer have. That was CCP's fault, not the fault of the people who own the prints after what, 5-6 years worth of how ever many sales they went through.

My point was that people need to stop trying to destroy anything they either can't figure out, or are too lazy to try and figure out. Being glad someone lost billions of isk and hoping it was multitudes more is a very bad way to approach things. If people can't figure out how useless a BPO is then they have no business with it to begin with. That will most likely lead to the loss of a lot of isk. Some people are smarter and can figure out how to profit off of some of them where it is worth while and they should be able to do so. Lazy underachievers coming out of left field doing everything they can do to burn down the entire arena where that takes place isn't cool. You want a fight in that arena then get in the fight, look for investors to help with the buy-in and if you're a good fighter then you will find a few. Don't try to have the arena closed down because you couldn't afford the buy-in and were unable to figure out how to find investors.....

Lucas, you're still worse than Gevlon at analogies.

T2 bpos came first... therefore, invention is undermining them... as someone who was not around during the lottery and didn't own a T2 bpo until 2012... yet I still managed to make a trillion isk off of flipping them... what's your excuse? I'll continue to profit off of them while you sit back and whine and gnash teeth... but that ain't none of my business...

just simple statements of facts.

Some of the owners of T2 BPOs though just sit around screaming about how they deserve compensation because they chose to pay ridiculous sums of isk for an outdated item. The level of entitlement coming off of T2 BPO owners is astounding.

I think that EVE's longevity is dependent on the sandbox. It's strength is in catering for a wide variety of interests and playstyles. Cutting out playstyles and forcing players to choose between a "variety" of similarly contrived grind mechanics is, I feel, the wrong way to go.

T2 BPOs are far from perfect, like pretty much everything in EVE. I'd say they need change, like pretty much everything in EVE. But I'd like to see that change be pro-sandbox and pro-EVE. I certainly don't think that whatever happens should be decided on the basis of forum whining of any kind. I'm concerned that CCP will do something stupid, because there are many examples of CCP doing stupid things, but I hope they do something clever, because there are also many examples of them doing clever things.

Time will tell, either way.

T2 BPOs and invention can't really co-exist. You're always going to have some items dominated by one and some dominated by others.

But CCP have already chosen, invention is here to stay, and when T2 BPOs get in the way of that, they will come off worse.

I disagree. Even within the current system, it's entirely possible for T2 BPOs to supply a small portion of a market and for invention to supply the rest.

Unfortunately that isn't currently the case in all markets. Some products are duds, some markets are small, some T2 BPOs are massively overproductive. But those issues can all be fixed. Indeed, even if T2 BPOs were removed entirely the issues of dud products and small markets would still be there and fixing those issues would still be beneficial.

I've got no problem with invention staying. I've got no problem with T2 BPOs getting nerfed. It's a playstyle I want to preserve, not a historical profit margin.

The playstyle continues to exist in the form of T1 manufacture, since T2 BPOs are that exact same system with different materials.

Potentially they could sit there and individually tweak all of the BPOs to try to fit them into a niche, but why would they?

What is it that makes people think that T2 BPO owners are so deserving of special treatment?

The playstyle continues to exist in the form of T1 manufacture, since T2 BPOs are that exact same system with different materials.

Not exactly. With a T2 BPO, you can put down a large sum of isk up front and effectively have a guaranteed profit margin on the BPO indefinitely without any special planning. The same is not true with T1 BPOs. Sure, there might be a gigantic ROI on the t2 BPO, but if you're sitting on excess capital, it's a good investment (well, not until invention changes are released, because t2 bpo prices are going to drop further).

[Because it's their job. Because it will improve the game. Because leaving the game to go derelict is not a sensible option.

It doesn't matter if you remove T2 BPOs or leave them in. T2 needs rebalancing either way.

[EDIT] It's also worth noting that this kind of rebalancing is very "cheap" from a development point of view. The Devs have said as much themselves. I know that Grayscale's recent pass on tweaking every BPO in the game was a bit of a botch job, but all that was really lacking there was insight, the process was simple enough.

So the benefit is that the limitation on how many of these BPOs are in existence gives a permanent and unchallengeable benefit to the owner. Unlike active mechanics, there's no way to combat a T2 BPO. Invention can't be worked harder to beat a T2 BPO, so you are suggesting a mechanic which gives a benefit with no counter is a good thing?

The point you're missing is that the vast majority of the volume of each t2 market is already supplied by invention. The price ceiling for t2 bpos is maintained by invention, and that ceiling is getting shorter and shorter with each of the recent revisions to invention. Once they allow for critical successes in invention (and partial refunds on failure), then invention will be even more competitive with T2 BPOs.

If you did the math, you'd see that profit margins on t2 bpos are not lucrative- they are just consistent. There are t1 items that people are making right now in mass volume that make tenfold the profit of most t2 bpos with the same amount of invested ISK. For around 40 billion, you can buy a t2 bpo that nets you a little over a billion a month, or you can do t1 production that can net you several billion every 2 weeks.

CCP is already continuing to nerf T2 BPOs, so it's way too late to jump on the "remove t2 bpo" train.

with no possible counter

There are just as many, if not more, counters to T2 BPOs as there are to invention.

Moreover invention has more and bigger advantages over T2 BPOs than the other way around.

Generally speaking, T2 BPO owners disadvantage themselves by buying them instead of taking other opportunities with the same resources.

We were already at the point where T2 BPO owners were paying a massive premium for tiny advantages and we're moving towards the point where the profit advantage just isn't going to exist anymore. All that will be left will be the playstyle dependant advantages, the taste advantages, the collectors value, the re-selling value... really all stuff that doesn't really hurt anyone... least of all the inventors.

So my point is: once CCP finish making invention non-terrible, there is really no need to remove the T2 BPOs. Invention will be cheaper, more scaleable, with a lower cost of entry and plenty more besides.

After that, removing T2 BPOs only does damage. If nothing else, it's spiteful.

By no counter, I mean that the advantage a T2 BPO owner gets, the guaranteed profit margin, it cannot be challenged by another player.

So the benefit is that the limitation on how many of these BPOs are in existence gives a permanent and unchallengeable benefit to the owner. Unlike active mechanics, there's no way to combat a T2 BPO. Invention can't be worked harder to beat a T2 BPO, so you are suggesting a mechanic which gives a benefit with no counter is a good thing?

Other methods of making more isk isn't a counter. By no counter, I mean that the advantage a T2 BPO owner gets, the guaranteed profit margin, it cannot be challenged by another player. At best it can be matched and only if another of the limited items exists. With T2 invention, you can bully someone else out of the market by filling the market with your goods at the lowest possible prices. You could never do this to a BPO owner as they will always have a lower price.

Like you said yourself before, the benefit isn't the profit margin, it's the consistent profitability of the item, which comes from there being no way for other players to counter it. At best, if another copy of the BPO exists, they can match it, but again, like you said, the production rate doesn't fill the demand (with the remainder filled by invention) so the existing BPO holder will be unaffected. So again, why is preserving a deprecated mechanic which provides a benefit with no possible counter a good thing?

By the way, I've been on the train for a long time.

I like the discussion that is going on. However i would like to add a few things to it. I do sence a small amoutn of hate towards the existance of T2 bpo's from you mr. Kell, and i wonder if this is coloring your point of view. As you have said; you are on the train for a long time.

Let my try to explain it on a simple, to be understandable (and for me to type) way. If there is a farmers market where 200 people want apples, where 170 apples are supplied by farmers (invention) and 30 by their workers (T2 bpo) who bought them cheaper and are reselling; Who is making up the price and who are shooting themselves in the foot? (this is a brain thinker)
You are complaining about the 0.1 isking game and all the tards that are falling for it. That is something substantialy differant!
(and you are also forgetting the t2 pvp loot sellers> buy order dumps > undercutting producers)
(Your claimes are adressed vs T2 bpo producers but i doubt you hvnt even thought about this one)

And what about the risk of investing? I do remember EVE being all about "Risk vs reward" > T2 bpo's value where going up and down following shipsbuff's, module changes, market manipulations and major fleet doctrine changes.
People didnt realised this, and it made reselling them very lucrative.

We are still taking about bought T2 bpo's not given ones (!!)

The cherry on the pie are these invention changes, to make it super clear:
Invention: Invest XXX amount > profit everymonth > after xxx years you build up a capital
Bought T2 bpo: Invest HUGH amount > Profit everymonth > Now -HUGH amount

At invention there is no risk at all... because on the long therm you have a 53% (succes rate), at T2 bpo you have risk of value deduction, which is now the case and the crated risk has ruind previous and future profit to come.

Removing T2 bpos will only make invention marginally more profitable, if at all... this is not about the viability of invention. Just come out and say it..

You're right, It's not, which is what I've stated multiple times. It's about removing the remnants of a deprecated mechanic so the invention mechanics can be played with without having to constantly ask the question "how will T2 BPOs affect or be affected by this change".

I get it though, you make a lot of isk though trading T2 BPOs, and if they get nerfed into just collectors items or removed entirely, you'll lose that line of isk making. Suck it up buddy, it's been a long time coming.

Suck it up as well... you still mention invention..

Lol? Are you 3?

I get it mate, you are scared you'll lose your profitable venture. There there, you'll find other way to make isk, I'm sure.

And here: It's an old mechanic which should have been removed long ago. You know this, I know this, CCP knows this. Keeping it around is not forward thinking, it's holding back progress to keep a handful of overly entitled players happy, and it's finally reached the breaking point and is likely to be removed.

There, I didn't even say the word you seem to have issues with (which by the way, I'm not involved in if you were curious. I gain and lose nothing whichever way this goes, which less face it, we all know is not in favour of T2 BPOs).

It's about removing the remnants of a deprecated mechanic so the invention mechanics can be played with without having to constantly ask the question "how will T2 BPOs affect or be affected by this change".

Eve works well for about 8y with t2bpos.

And when the argument is reduced down to that, we're left deciding whether that reduction in support and development complexity is worth the loss of depth in the game.

But we players do not have the means to gauge how much that reduction in support and development complexity is worth or how much we stand to gain from it.

We can gauge the value of the loss of depth in the game, but that will be a matter of personal taste, which cannot really be debated.

But at least we've completed another turn around the ballroom and come to the same place. A difference of opinion based on taste and weakly founded speculation.

T2 BPO do not add depth. They give a select number of players the ability to bypass invention in favour of using T1 mechanics, so if anything, they remove depth.

They give every player the ability to own, collect and trade limited edition industrial assets. They give every player more things to aspire to or work towards, if they so desire. They add positive and interesting aspects to the game that otherwise would not exist.

But you don't like them, so apparently none of that matters.

I just don't think the positives outweigh the negatives.

Removing their ability to produce most certainly has no impact on the depth of the game and they can still be collected.

A matter of taste, which is pointless to argue over.

Must you be so persistently disingenuous?

Not really. The positives are that a handful of people can use an item to undercut prices of the main producers (bearing in mind that they would still be collectables even if they didn't get used for industry). The negatives are that the invention system has to be tiptoed around when making changes so that this deprecated system won't break or be broken by the changes.

The thing is, if you issue really was that they are part of the history of EVE and are valuable collectors items, then their use as an industry item would be irrelevant.

I'm not. They've already knocked them down a few pegs, they've got more plans announced to knock them down further, and they've said in the past that their value as a production item will decrease considerably. Eventually they will have no place in industry, and barely a fraction of the community will even notice.

So you may be like a main producer who is mad as hell that it is possible to undercut him.

OK so I am just a consumer. Do you guarantee the availability and lower price of tech 2 items if we agree to have you replace the greedy tech 2 bpo owners? If you are not big enough for this promise can you get the main producers to back you up? I mean I want a lower price lifetime guarantee and no shortages.

If you cannot guarantee this then is it not the case of "meet the new boss, same as the old boss"? How did you arrive on the higher moral ground than tech 2 bpo owners in this debate?

I can't guarantee you anything from a producer, since I'm not a producer. I can guarantee that there will continue to be enough producers to keep the price low on the vast majority of items, since as T2 BPO holder repeatedly state, they provide a minority of the products on the market, and so their existence is irrelevant to a consumer.

It's more like, meet the new boss, who is the old boss, since invention is already the primary mechanic for T2 production. It would be nice to see invention grow as a mechanic, which won't happen while people cling onto deprecated mechanics making it harder to iterate on invention mechanics.

What if what you call "deprecated mechanics" is really a very low yielding speculative annuity. Why do you want to take away some players' ability to speculate or invest in a low yielding annuity if as you say these BPOs are largely irrelevant to the economy?

I do not think that it is a costless idea to eliminate the possibility for people with a lot of isk to lock in a tech 2 bpo even at a ridiculous price just so that they feel that when they get bored they will not have to rat again to make isk. They overpay for this right but why not preserve this option for them?

On one hand you are upset about them having tech 2 bpos, on the other hand they are upset with you trying to take it away. How is your position more defensible? How do you know that your position is what is best for the game?

Hi, I'm Lucas Kell and I don't like T2 BPOs , so they should be removed... I don't even invent or produce, yo. I only wish to **** off a select few because I was too dumb to make vast amounts of isk for little or no effort... #YOLO

I don't call it a deprecated mechanic, it is a deprecated mechanic because it was stopped and replaced invention. And there's no speculation, T2 BPOs produce at a lower cost than invention. People like them because when they have a heap of cash, they can buy a T2 BPO and guarantee profit on it until they choose to sell it, at which point it's normally gone up or at worst stayed stable in price. You don't need to put the BPO at risk, and you don't need to worry about other producers undercutting you, since the only way they could undercut you is by selling at less than your production cost, which would be way below theirs.

Why keep a low risk and unchallengeable method of production at the cost of making invention mechanic iteration more difficult? I think the question pretty much answers itself.

I'm not upset about anything. Old mechanics should and usually are removed. T2 BPOs are an old mechanic, and it shouldn't be any different for them just because some people will have a sad about it. People who lost reprocessing as a career choice were just told to htfu, so why shouldn't the same be said to T2 BPO holders?

And CCP have already taken and are taking more steps to nuke T2 BPOs as is. I think it's clear what CCPs opinion on the matter is, so I'd say that speaks volumes for the validity of my position.

T2 BPOs only make up about 30% of my income... I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket... this is about you attacking a source of income because you don't like it or haven't taken advantage of it.

Except it's not about that. You wish it was about that since you can easily attack that. Repeating it won't make it so. I don't dislike T2 BPOs any more than I dislike any other deprecated mechanics that get held onto at the detriment to new mechanics.

And who cares if lately I haven't taken advantage of it? Is your reasoning here that if I'm not a T2 BPO user then my opinion on industry mechanics involving is invalid? Seems like that leaves a pretty biased group as the only people allowed an opinion. Luckily you are just a random and CCP themselves are already on board with nuking T2 BPOs into the ground, so whether or not you think my opinion is valid is entirely irrelevant.

Speaking of random...

BPOs are not "Bind on Pickup". You could buy them and get "the same potential end-game" etc. etc.
Many who started playing well past T2 BPOs lottery had been "phased out" still got their BPOs fill.

YES?

T2 BPOs only make up about 30% of my income... I wouldn't put all my eggs in one basket... this is about you attacking a source of income because you don't like it or haven't taken advantage of it.

Doesn't invent or produce.. still defends it.

anyone who still had a t2 bpo as a moneymaking venture as of like 2 years ago was an utter fool given the price

I think i resold his T2 bpo's once, netting me a few 10's of B, he must be still mad about it...

He is obvius trying to get them removed and ruin the current sales untill that time due that, by dictatoring his opinion all over this topic

What he forgets are the little detais in the new invention changes. After the new changes, some items (like most of them) will face higher invention cost ;)

Well yeahh duhhh...!, not all the people have the chance to ask it mittens and his "cristal ball" crew aka Goon Fleet Investment Bank (OSS). Inbefore a goon ISD removing my post.

I always found this odd. It was as though the Devs, having created the problem in the first place, were being held hostage by personal agendas and were either unable or unwilling to fix it. From a game play perspective, it was weak, it was illogical and it was unjust. Three things to which I have an incredibly strong allergy.

CCP created the best game ever, IMO, but on this point they made a mistake that was handled abysmally -- from a gaming perspective -- on every level.

T-

As a sometimes massively critic against CCP, I have to say they have a lot of factors that make them stand out in a positive way.

One of them is, they usually don't play "gods" with their game. If they fumble, they take the blow and try countering it, like they were "in the sandbox" with us.

When they botched the T2 BPOs they could have played high gods of authority and brute force removed them. Many other MMO companies would have done that...

... and this is why CCP is still here and they aren't.

CCP don't fear dirtying their hands (some times in a bad way) and taking the consequences. Holding to the T2 BPO legacy costed CCP many headaches but in the end the "BPO containment" worked well enough.

Unfairness, dirty playing, ways to circumvent both, all contributes making EvE "not perfect, not irreal" and thus felt a more believable space life simulation.

As a sometimes massively critic against CCP, I have to say they have a lot of factors that make them stand out in a positive way.

One of them is, they usually don't play "gods" with their game. If they fumble, they take the blow and try countering it, like they were "in the sandbox" with us.

When they botched the T2 BPOs they could have played high gods of authority and brute force removed them. Many other MMO companies would have done that...

... and this is why CCP is still here and they aren't.

CCP don't fear dirtying their hands (some times in a bad way) and taking the consequences. Holding to the T2 BPO legacy costed CCP many headaches but in the end the "BPO containment" worked well enough.

Unfairness, dirty playing, ways to circumvent both, all contributes making EvE "not perfect, not irreal" and thus felt a more believable space life simulation.

Lol? They usually throw bans around, declare things exploits, and undo stuff. Like the fac five stuff or the bounty exploit in Crius. CCP are not at all against just nuking things out of the game when they mess up. The only reason T2 BPOs survived is because at the time it was the GMs handing them out to all their mates and CCP hadn't really got into the mindset of nuking things out. If the original T2 BPO situation was happening right now instead you'd all be finding yourselves sitting starting at your T1 BPO equivalents quicker than you can blink.

And to be perfectly honest, a game company that refuses to take decisive action because a few people will cry about it is hardly going about it the right way. They are instead going to keep taking whacks at them until T2 BPOs are pretty much useless and everyone involved is all whined out or gone, then they'll drop them from industry use. In the long run it's going to be more painful than the "one quick jolt and done", even if people actively investing in them are too blinded by bias to see it.

Lol? They usually throw bans around, declare things exploits, and undo stuff.

The only reason T2 BPOs survived is because at the time it was the GMs handing them out to all their mates and CCP hadn't really got into the mindset of nuking things out.

And to be perfectly honest, a game company that refuses to take decisive action because a few people will cry about it is hardly going about it the right way. They are instead going to keep taking whacks at them until T2 BPOs are pretty much useless and everyone involved is all whined out or gone, then they'll drop them from industry use. In the long run it's going to be more painful than the "one quick jolt and done", even if people actively investing in them are too blinded by bias to see it.

When the POS T2 exploit became widely spread, they acted like they did with T2 BPOs: they could not ban thousands of players (in a game whose sub numbers are limited) so they just fixed it. In the case of bugs, they could be fixed like you fix a leak, when stuff is handed to large numbers, and many got the stuff in a legitimate way, you can't just tell them they shall be punished like the guility ones. This usually causes very bad press, lots of people quitting and so on.
EvE by then had fewer subs than even today, it could have not recovered from the blow.

To be perfectly honest, by now you should have learned the EvE "vibe". If you don't like a dirty game on all its dimensions then you should not even be here.

I have chosen to play EvE in the most honest way I could, but MANY wanted a MMO where they could act like they could never do in any other MMO. They got it. You either accept EvE's reality or keep complaining, it won't change a comma.

Except the entire mechanic was deprecated, so we're not talking about a few exploiters, we're talking about an entire system being replaced and them keeping the remnants of the old process in. Why did they remove researched compression blueprints refunding only the base cost with Crius for example?

Most of the people that campaign for T2 BPOs to be left in do so because they make a lot of isk flipping and using them, with very little risk. Outside of exceptional times like now where prices are all over the place, T2 BPOs are profitable and maintain their value. Hardly the level of risk I'd expect from a "hardcore" game like EVE.

Let me remind you that EvE is a Sun Tsu game:

"What the ancients called a clever fighter is one who not only wins, but excels in winning with ease"

I constantly hear crying over how risk is a part of EVE, yet there's a mechanic with no counter and very low risk available for end gamers. Hardly sounds like the hardcore game it's put forward to be.

Continue to protect the broken mechanic so you can make easy isk all you want. CCP understand it needs to be nuked and are doing so. I just hope they have the guts to push fully through with it.

Did I say I ever owned a single T2 BPO? No.

Why? Because I never cared to.

Because I have never had any issue making tons of money via invention.

Despite it's a totally secondary activity of mine, I have made 100B on two invented BPCs before the mining revamp patch.
I truly got screwed by T2 BPO owners!

And? When was I saying that invention is unprofitable due to T2 BPOs? Invention is profitable and will become more so as CCP nuke T2 BPOs as they should.

CCP Greyscale indicated that [CCP] thought the price of T2 BPOs should take their eventual nerf into account. Furthermore, he hinted, but did not outright say, that T2 BPOs would eventually be removed, but no date was given. TheMittani.com

Lol? They usually throw bans around, declare things exploits, and undo stuff. Like the fac five stuff or the bounty exploit in Crius. CCP are not at all against just nuking things out of the game when they mess up. The only reason T2 BPOs survived is because at the time it was the GMs handing them out to all their mates and CCP hadn't really got into the mindset of nuking things out. If the original T2 BPO situation was happening right now instead you'd all be finding yourselves sitting starting at your T1 BPO equivalents quicker than you can blink.

And to be perfectly honest, a game company that refuses to take decisive action because a few people will cry about it is hardly going about it the right way. They are instead going to keep taking whacks at them until T2 BPOs are pretty much useless and everyone involved is all whined out or gone, then they'll drop them from industry use. In the long run it's going to be more painful than the "one quick jolt and done", even if people actively investing in them are too blinded by bias to see it.

Most of the people that campaign for T2 BPOs to be left in do so because they make a lot of isk flipping and using them, with very little risk. Outside of exceptional times like now where prices are all over the place, T2 BPOs are profitable and maintain their value. Hardly the level of risk I'd expect from a "hardcore" game like EVE.

T2 BPOs and invention can't really co-exist. You're always going to have some items dominated by one and some dominated by others. But CCP have already chosen, invention is here to stay, and when T2 BPOs get in the way of that, they will come off worse. I imagine that when they get around to announcing the full invention revamp there will be a few unhappy faces from the T2 BPO crowd, I honestly just can't see how or why they would try to preserve the productivity of T2 BPOs considering their source and history.

You are not that stupid, you know the difference between facts and opinions, so let us not pretend otherwise.

We're not in General Discussion. There has been none of that in this thread. Why not keep it that way.

For myself, I just want what is best for the game.

We can all grow attached to our virtual assets, our characters, our corps, our alliances, whatever. But if the game dies then all of that goes with it.

I think that EVE's longevity is dependent on the sandbox. It's strength is in catering for a wide variety of interests and playstyles. Cutting out playstyles and forcing players to choose between a "variety" of similarly contrived grind mechanics is, I feel, the wrong way to go.

T2 BPOs are far from perfect, like pretty much everything in EVE. I'd say they need change, like pretty much everything in EVE. But I'd like to see that change be pro-sandbox and pro-EVE. I certainly don't think that whatever happens should be decided on the basis of forum whining of any kind. I'm concerned that CCP will do something stupid, because there are many examples of CCP doing stupid things, but I hope they do something clever, because there are also many examples of them doing clever things.

Time will tell, either way.