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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.08.08 15:09:00 -
[391]
Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 08/08/2006 15:11:38
Let's play buzzword bingo!
Paradigm III
Heirachical authority structures I
Transcend I
Imperative I
Meme II
Anarcho-capitalist (double points) I
...
You hear that wooshing noise Jasmine? Yeah, that's my point sailing over your "wise and experienced" little head. I'm not interested in *****-measuring contests or whatever, I'm just making a simple point: the majority of 0.0 alliances are operating under conditions you don't seem to have a coherent grasp or understanding of. You want to use your dreadnaught in against gatecamps? Good luck with that, and please be sure to send me your deathmail when you get ganked.
The POS/station/sov system as it stands right now requires a large and consistent supply of resources and money in order to maintain the necessary infrastructure, particularly when faced with real or potential hostiles who are themselves making efficient use of their available resources. Yes, there's a large degree of "conformity" involved; this is because there's only one real "most efficient" class of approaches to generate the necessary resources due to the way that the system works. That's not an issue with the alliances involved, it's an issue with POS mechanics.
Which, apparently, you know squat about in the real world, which was the point I was trying to make.
I'll make two happy clarifications here. First, I don't think that you need active hands-on experience (of the type you don't seem to have) of the current system to understand it. I'm not playing the "you weren't there" card here. I'm just making the observation that, as a contingent fact, it seems from what you're saying that your lack of experience has created a lack of understanding.
Second, I don't think that non-NBSI policies are impossible under the current system. Indeed, I think they are in theory quite valid and probably have positives of their own. However, the additional demand on resources, physical and particularly human, that implementing such policies would require in order to avoid such an implementation fatally compromising the long-term security of the alliance in question is considerable, to the extent that it's unlikely that the majority of alliances are capable of meeting those demands. It's a simple issue of practicality - NBSI generally makes 0.0 territory manageable, and managed 0.0 territory is a prerequisite for almost any class of success these days - certainly for military and political success and usually for economic success too.
The long and short of this is that, as far as I can tell, for probably any major alliance implementing non-NBSI policy in its own territory would effectively cripple that alliance, either directly through subsantially weakened immediate security or indirectly through diminished levels of access to key resources causing it to fall behind militarily and economically. It's basically the same argument as the one used by planet-side nations to explain why controlled immigration is a good thing and uncontrolled immigration is a bad thing - the former boosts economic performance and enriches the host country, while the latter leads to overpopulation, lack of resources and eventual collapse.
In conclusion, please come back when you actually understand how things run in 0.0 these days, when you've adapted your ideology to reality and when you're capable of having a reasonable discussion without resorting to condecension, unjustified assumption and arguments from "authority" (and I use the term loosely there). Until then - until you can explain how the ideals you formulated all those years ago are relevant to the current mechanics - I'm really not interested at a practical level in what you "believe" to be correct. Discussion of dogma may be interesting for the way it explores the believer's mind, but it rarely has any practical benefit unless it can be shown to have at least a tenuous link with reality, something which your current position seems to be sadly lacking. Good day.
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Raid
Caldari
Tyrell Corp
Curse Coalition
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Posted - 2006.08.08 15:39:00 -
[392]
If you think thats going to stop Jasmine from posting a reply your wrong. If you say 1+2=3 you'll get a reply saying but 2+2=4!
I learnt this a few months ago... dont waste your time discussion things with someone who will never believe that they could possibly be wrong.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.08.08 16:21:00 -
[393]
IÆm glad you appreciate an interesting turn of phrase mr Toastius!
Anyways, your assertion that 0.0 alliances are operating under situations I donÆt understand is a bit silly really. How do ISS secure their outposts? By anchoring large POS round all the moons. How do moon-mining supply chains work? We have a very complex diagram posted on our forums but frankly itÆs easier to pay somebody else to do it and let them make an honest profit.
Your statement that NBSI approach is the most efficient approach is somewhat disproved by the success of non NBSI operations of this type and tends to suggest itÆs the power and control elements you crave rather than the profit/efficiency argument.
IÆd actually say you are completely wrong on the business of POS mechanics requiring NBSI sensibly on the grounds that large POS can simply be spammed out by a competent logistical operation to secure sovereignty rending random hostiles effectively irrelevant to overall safety of the operation. A couple of previously unknown pirates arenÆt going to switch the sovereignty of a POS spammed up region. Hence why the need for NBSI at all? Why not just tag hostiles as they aggress û the fact that worse case scenario on a sneak pos attack is a slip to reinforced mode for some bases gives you all the time you need to set the hostiles negative on the alliance level surely.
(of course if you are saying you need NBSI because you are scrimping on the large POS networks and donÆt have enough to make a quick sovereignty move by unknown aggressors irrelevant then thatÆs your problem right there and then. Work harder if you want your name on the stars Joerd)
IÆm also a bit confused that you keep on talking about 0.0 ôtodayö as if itÆs suddenly become scarier and more violent than it was in the past. Seriously, the period after the discovery of the conquerable stations on the frontier was dangerous and monstrously chaotic for anyone wishing to role out investment and presence in deep space. These days seem tame by comparison.
Fundamentally though, you are very happy to criticise what you perceive to be my lack of knowledge of these systems and yet you fail to explain precisely why it is you believe the current POS-centric environment of 0.0 requires NBSI to make it work. IÆm left assuming itÆs just a statement of belief on your part as well and that makes it all the more amusing you condemn me as a fervent believer ignoring the ôfactsö!
(Now moving on to the more pertinent stuff)
Yes I acknowledge that paranoia over resource access is a key argument for NBSI ideology. As I stated earlier this hasnÆt changed since the earliest days of the game when corporations were fighting over ninja-mining rights for bistot roids.
I also acknowledge that to the authoritarian imperialist the concept that neutrals could come to an area of space you claim and not pay homage to the alliance royalty can be very irritating indeed. IÆm not convinced it leads inevitably to collapse or loss of sovereignty though and I suspect youÆll be hard put to name me some solid examples of this kind of failing (being as the frontier is 99% territorialist nbsi and all that)
In conclusion while again I acknowledge your opinion Joerd I donÆt consider snippy soundbites and throwaway allusions to my lack of knowledge much of a pertinent argument in your favour. I donÆt dance to your tune IÆm afraid, and will keep expressing my opinions on the direction of settlement on the frontier in a polite and reasonable manner in the assurance that not everyone is quite so close-minded as the neo-territorialists of RAZOR.
Anyway, we have finally drifted off the primary topic for this thread so until we cross swords again in another discussion I suggest we turn back to Goons and their experience. I think NBSI and lack of progressive political innovation played a role in their problems and you donÆt. LetÆs leave it at that between the two of us for now.
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Jasmine Constantine
Gallente
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2006.08.08 16:25:00 -
[394]
 Originally by: Raid
I learnt this a few months ago... dont waste your time discussion things with someone who will never believe that they could possibly be wrong.
Oh I can be wrong about lots of things Raid. I'm sure you have very useful specific knowledge on a whole number of eve-related issues and protocols. I'm not the font of all knowledge but I've got opinions about things and generally the inclination to express them. Its just a political discussion here really - takes more than some debate back and forth to change a deep held ideology and thats a strength of eve's environment as much as anything. How much fun would it be if the white hats and black hats of eve swaped headwear every couple of weeks and everyone was broadly the same?
_________________
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Joerd Toastius
Octavian Vanguard
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Posted - 2006.08.08 16:49:00 -
[395]
Ok, let me break it down into simple terms for you. The two key benefits of NBSI as I see them:
1) Helps reduce the incidence of gank squads. Remove, no, reduce, yes, as it means that any allied combat parties will engage such aggressors along with everyone else
2) Ensures control over physical resources. This is more important: while mid-grade resources (ok rats, ok ore) is common in 0.0, the really good stuff (high-grade ore, high-quality rats, complexes etc) tends to be pretty rare. An NRDS approach will generally lead quickly to such resources being over-subscribed or depleted. This in turn means both in the short term reduced income to pay for the infrastructure that you need to maintain a claim in 0.0 and in the longer term a less favourable resource base compared to your enemies. Both of these outcomes are big negatives.
You've also got to consider hostile alt corps etc using your space to make money, but it's a game of chance whether or not you can spot them.
By contrast, the benefits to NRDS are, what... it's ideologically more appealing? There certainly don't seem to be any obvious material benefits which can't be gained simply by allowing screened corps access.
My point about your grasp or lack thereof of the way things work in 0.0 is not a question of intellectually appreciating the fundamental mechanics, it's a question of actually grasping the scale of operations needed, the amount of work that needs to be done and the way that everything has to be tied in and organised and balanced to ensure that the machine continues to tick over. I don't think you appreciate the qualitative and quantitative impact to the day-to-day running of the average 0.0 alliance that implementing the ideologies you promote would have, because I don't think you appreciate the amount and type of work that goes into such day-to-day running. If you want to stop this discussion here that's no skin off my back - my continued participation is mainly just intellectual interest in how deeply engrained these ideas are in your head; I lost little hope of you actually approaching the problem rationally (as in, asking yourself seriously if you could be wrong) long ago.
PS You criticising me for "snippy soundbites" and the lack of a "pertinent argument" is about the most hypocritical thing I've ever seen you write, and that's saying something. Still, at least now you know what it feels like, even if that feeling is only due to you (wilfully?) misunderstanding my point yet again...
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Avon
Caldari
Black Nova Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 17:13:00 -
[396]
This little 0.0 ideological debate is fun, but silly.
Both have their merits.
NBSI is proactive, and the "warm and friendly" approach is reactive.
NBSI is more effective when your space is less secure, but it is much more work intensive.
It is easier to only target those who directly threaten you, and it is also more efficient.
A reactive position is not weaker, but it definately requires more restraint.
NBSI is not better, because it fosters a repressive image, but it is effective.
I like the freespace concept, and it would be something worth working towards, but I don't think it is currently feasible (because it isn't really possible to build the required infrastructure under the current game mechanics).
NBSI, I think, is probably more a means to an end, rather than a workable long term goal, but it currently suits the nature of 0.0
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur
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Willis Drummond
Lordless
Unbrella Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.08 17:14:00 -
[397]
I seriously hope this thread never dies. It's about 1000x more funny than the connect 4 thread.
Awesome Post# 713636 |
Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.08 17:59:00 -
[398]
I don't think any of you are taking this seriously enough. Please escalate this conflict to the point where people who have no vested interest in the outcome are willing to physically kill complete strangers, or at least cripple them. Post a journal of the outcome.
Oh, and be sure to remove all sense of proportion, context, courtesy, logic, or sanity. Otherwise, it just won't fit in with the whole scene we've got going here. And be sure to lie a lot. It's traditional.
The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored) |
Hampstah
Chosen Path
Center for Disease Creation
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Posted - 2006.08.08 19:18:00 -
[399]
Digi's post back on page 10 for those who missed it is the best summation yet of this mess with some excellent commentary on how to move forward and address the problems. One thing I kept noticing in the GS posts was refusal to believe that the old EVE community was generally outraged by GS actions and comments. They preferred to create a conspiracy theory that BoB planned the whole thing.
I have been an enemy of BoB & allied corps for most of my time in EVE, yet in this I fully supported them as I (and many others I know) were genuinely upset at the comments and actions made by GS. One of the reasons I have left and come back to EVE several times is that reputation actually matters in this game. If BoB had not declared the Jihad, someone else would have. I and several I know discussed flying half way across the universe to fight them, but BoB/D2/MC/RZR etc. had it more than covered.
I advise any GS / ex-GS anybody else reading this out of interest go back to page 10 and read Digi's post carefully. I'd also skim Jasmine's  as that debate is one of the reasons a lot of us play EVE. The nature of this sandbox is to create political and social situations we truly care about, as opposed to other MMO's where personal loot is the only goal and guilds are just there to help indivduals get their stuff.
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Beware Rodentz with Gunz
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Darkrydar
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 20:05:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Antetma
This is my main thank you very much.
In a noob corp for one year, one month and have 0.0 sec rating.
yeah right
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Antetma
University of Caille
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Posted - 2006.08.08 20:15:00 -
[401]
Originally by: Darkrydar
Originally by: Antetma
This is my main thank you very much.
In a noob corp for one year, one month and have 0.0 sec rating.
yeah right
Typical BoB, assumes too much.
And for those of you who seem to eat up the garbage spewed up on these forums; you are by far some of the most gullible people I have ever seen.
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Fred0
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.08 20:32:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Antetma
Typical BoB, assumes too much.
Stop bull****ting, you are a fricken alt. One year untouched.
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.08 21:35:00 -
[403]
Oh noes! Your opinion is invalidated if BoB can't wardec you and turn you into a cautionary tale.
Anyone want to call me an alt, btw?
The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored) |
Breaky Uzumaki
Caldari
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2006.08.08 21:46:00 -
[404]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Now you're being prosecuted for the actions of a very few people, who unfortunately for GoonSwarm, have a commanding position within the corporation. For it to end, you'll have to learn this isn't SA Clone #2657 the hard way. We will keep teaching you the meaning of consequence for as long as you give us a reason. And you will learn, my God you will learn - either by disassociating yourselves from the trash that started this (which you've begun already) or finding your own path in EVE outside of GS.
You can think of BoB as parents, scolding children for unruly behaviour. You can think of the community as Borg, forcing assimilation upon you under penalty of death. Pick and choose they are free metaphors, I really don't care. But what you're fighting against is nothing short of omnipotence itself. Only a cause delivered by the Divine can motivate the most bored and jaded vets of EVE to camp your stupid shuttles 24/7.
And thats what this war is, a Holy War. We put a Jihad on you, and you'll find that even the thickest roleplay variations of this war (which I may be spewing now actually!) are quite hurty. You're going to go through days, weeks, and most likely months of ingame pressure and constraint. Until one day, you finally realize its not a place to pew pew and irritate the crap out of everyone who doesn't suckle on lowtax's teats and condemn anyone who even thinks of pulling another stupidly unfunny stunt. Then, and only then will the cancer be gone.
Funniest thing I've ever read. I really hope this was an RP post.
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Galavet
Minmatar
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 22:39:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
Anyone want to call me an alt, btw?
No, but I think BoB fanboi in training suits you very nicely tho.
Current RKK Ranking: (MIN100) CEO |
Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.08 22:47:00 -
[406]
Originally by: Galavet
Originally by: Devilish Ledoux
Anyone want to call me an alt, btw?
No, but I think BoB fanboi in training suits you very nicely tho.
Did you fail to detect my sarcasm, or did I fail to detect yours? The world may never know.
The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored) |
Idaeus
Crimson Wings Squadron
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Posted - 2006.08.08 22:56:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Joerd Toastius
People dislike JF because they offer a competing way of playing the same game, packaged up in a particularly unappetising manner.
For the record. I love the JF mindset. It appeals to me on a basic level. |
Tetsujin
Caldari
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2006.08.08 22:59:00 -
[408]
Could someone save me a copy of this thread so I can read it infront of a cozy fire on cold winter nights?...oh silly me, it'll still be on the first page in November. 
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ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 23:07:00 -
[409]
Originally by: Tetsujin
Could someone save me a copy of this thread so I can read it infront of a cozy fire on cold winter nights?...oh silly me, it'll still be on the first page in November.
This may help. Linkage
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Devilish Ledoux
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2006.08.08 23:18:00 -
[410]
I thought the French were good at insults.
The Billionaire Buccaneer (A Blog for the Bored) |
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Tetsujin
Caldari
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2006.08.08 23:20:00 -
[411]
Edited by: Tetsujin on 08/08/2006 23:21:54
Originally by: ProphetGuru
This may help.
http://www.btinternet.com/~dalsarns/pics/laughing.gif
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ProphetGuru
Gallente
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.08 23:25:00 -
[412]
I don't know Mr. LEDOUX... you tell me.
The French do make a mean killboard tho....
Originally by: Tetsujin
http://www.btinternet.com/~dalsarns/pics/laughing.gif
I'm saving that.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Metal Dude
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.09 01:34:00 -
[413]
Come on guys, letÆs just stop this. WhatÆs done is done, everything that had to be said was said. People make mistakes and they pay a price, but thatÆs how we all learn. Give Goons a break.
I remember when we all were starting out in other alliances, what kind of smack and flames wars these forums were. It was 10 times as bad as it is now, so donÆt let us ævetsÆ forget were we all came from, hey?
LetÆs just play the game. Goons will do what they do and everyone else will do what they feel like they have to do and in the end, weÆll all benefit from all the drama by having fun. LetÆs enjoy the fights, because wars donÆt last forever. In this game, when you lose, you donÆt die, you reemerge. Before you know it, youÆre in the same channel on TS with the guy you were killing last week *****ing jokes about it.
The truth will set you free
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Faith Rose
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.09 02:18:00 -
[414]
not sure if this will end up in a double post, if so soory ahead of time.
With that said: Everyone get off your high horse, you were once newb's to once or was it so long ago you have forgotton.
As for you goon's if you so choose to act like little 5 year olds out of control, in reponce you'll be treated as such.
===============================================
It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected. |
Tassitus Mallinar
Caldari
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2006.08.09 04:05:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Tetsujin
Edited by: Tetsujin on 08/08/2006 23:21:54
Originally by: ProphetGuru
This may help.
http://www.btinternet.com/~dalsarns/pics/laughing.gif
Better still: http://magnifiedx.com/emot-munch.gif
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Willis Drummond
Lordless
Unbrella Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.09 05:14:00 -
[416]
Originally by: Faith Rose
not sure if this will end up in a double post, if so soory ahead of time.
With that said: Everyone get off your high horse, you were once newb's to once or was it so long ago you have forgotton.
As for you goon's if you so choose to act like little 5 year olds out of control, in reponce you'll be treated as such.
Shoo, shoo, stop making sense or you'll ruin the thread. Reading the pontificating a bunch of stuffed shirts who fancy themselves as enlightened commentators on the state of mankind and the mandates of the divine because of their SP count and IG birthdates is much more fun without everyone being rational.
Awesome Post# 803319 |
Heero Yuy
Minmatar
Kinetic Vector
Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2006.08.09 05:35:00 -
[417]
Funny how every time someone comes along and writes more than 10 lines of intelligent prose not containing smack, 1337 speak or general dumbass comments, someone feels the need to put them down. If these forums had three or four more people like DC, Jasmine and Joerd they would actually be worth reading on a regular basis, rather than the odd 5 minute visit now and then. Instead we have hundreds upon hundreds like the guy above, who contributes nothing at all except perhaps making himself feel better after having checked the length of his ***** in the mirror and being disappointed once again.
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Sergeant Spot
Black Eclipse Corp
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2006.08.09 08:49:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Willis Drummond
Originally by: Faith Rose
not sure if this will end up in a double post, if so soory ahead of time.
With that said: Everyone get off your high horse, you were once newb's to once or was it so long ago you have forgotton.
As for you goon's if you so choose to act like little 5 year olds out of control, in reponce you'll be treated as such.
Shoo, shoo, stop making sense or you'll ruin the thread. Reading the pontificating a bunch of stuffed shirts who fancy themselves as enlightened commentators on the state of mankind and the mandates of the divine because of their SP count and IG birthdates is much more fun without everyone being rational.
Learn to read
Has nothing to do with SP, and very little to do with how long folks have player (not zero to do with the second, but very little....)
It boils down to ONE thing:
From a point of view of individuals BEING accountable for there actions, there is ZERO difference between a face to face game on a ball field, and a game between human players on the internet. ANY game.
Successfully "holding" folks accountable is a seperate issue, but one that BoB, in this case, is going to make a stab at.
*snip*
This type of comment has no place in a signature, please remain courteous - Pirlouit
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Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
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Posted - 2006.08.09 09:30:00 -
[419]
3) Timing. Why now? BoB have complained about almost every aspect of GS from day 1. So why now? Why do all the various reasons BoB have disjointedly offered to the community converge to the one point in time when it's easiest to attack and destroy GS? Why does it have to be total annihilation out of the game? Avon freely admitted that BoB cancelled operations and current plans in order to make this happen. If BoB had had the courage of their convictions we would have seen this long before, instead it happens right after Goonswarm achieve a modicum of success. Right after Goonswarm proved to all that they can actually challenge the top guns if not win that one particular war BoB decide they need to leave the game. BoB are developing quite a nice reputation on avoiding fullscale conflict and now they are going to extraordinary lengths to achieve this, in doing so have denied the community a war that many would have liked to have seen and would have been great fun.
Regarding Jasmines interesting comments on the politics of GS. I find reading your stuff fascinating, but I don't believe GS made a mistake here, they never promised to shake up ingame politics and only offered to challenge the top guns - all this shows that they were actually more successful than some groups wanted to be. I appreciate you're disappointed, but this is with your own mistaken belief that they would bring to the game something you would have liked to have seen, not with GS themselves.
CAPTAIN THUNK
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team. |
Captain Thunk
Explode. Now. Please.
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Posted - 2006.08.09 09:30:00 -
[420]
Problem here is no-ones holding BoB to account. I've been met by the same puerile humour, pathetic Internet one-liners and text-book forum cliches all from BoB that's supposedly marking SA as something different and inhuman. Why is it that SA is being held to account for a couple of members actions when BoB and others can get away with rogue elements?
Unfortunately when you know little about a large group of people it's easy to use a common factor and any ingrained associated stereotype. I don't see how people can accept this course of action believing that SA is some sort of "cancer" and needs to be exterminated. Do these people also hold to the opinion that "All middle-easterners are terrorists....they must be...they are from the middle-east for christ sake!" or "All East Europeans keep sheep in their front room. Thats what East Europeans do".
History dictates using sweeping stereotypes for personal political gain is a very dangerous path to follow. The fact DigitalCommunist seems to have hinted its ok this is just a one off is only a reminder of how hypocritical this all is. Even though BoB are aware of the longterm rammifications that driving people out of the game hold they promise to ensure that no-one else tries it after them
I think these are decisions that should be taken by CCP and only CCP, no player base ever should have the right to dictate who and who cannot play the game - it's pretty obvious that this is open to corruption as is happening here.
BoBs made several mistakes indicating the true nature of their intent.
1) I've never seen BoB so ununified before. The undying loyalty is still there obviously, but many have shown they don't know which direction they're going and have offered many different reasons as to why this is happening. If BoB don't know why this is happening then there's obviously a problem - yet all these reasons came together at precisely the same time. DCs post came too late, we've already heard that Goonfleet are being exorcised for cheating, for the signature, for being Lamo's, for being a cancer. The only consistency BoB have shown is the belief that Goonswarm are not and never would be any form of a threat.
2) SA Forums. BoB have continually baited Goonswarm and offered their "opinions" in many Goonswarm threads. Putting people down and acting surprised if they retort with something they don't like is profoundly hypocritical. I'm genuinely disgusted with some of the arrogance BoB display with the sole intention of winding members of THIS community up and then feigning surprise when they bite back. Quoting single GS members to death even if a couple of posts aftwerwards an alliance mate disagreed with the comment shows that this is done purely to enforce this stereotype that "SA are wierdo's" - an example being "Internets space ships game" it's been bandied about a lot even though a number of GS guys put the original poster in his place about it vocally. Another example is of course the signature, the guy was kicked by his alliance - irrelevent when you're relying on a stereotype for justification it seems.
If you have a problem, if no one else can help, and if you can find them, maybe you can hire...The ENP-Team. |
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