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SmarncaV2 Snuff Box 47	Posted - 2014.09.23 09:21:00 - [1] - Quote Please look at it! It's currently the number one go ship for most of pvp corporations and alliances in Eve Online. That applies for small gang, sol and large cale warfare. PS. Another 2.5% nerf wont help
Danny John-Peter Snuff Box 514	Posted - 2014.09.23 09:27:00 - [2] - Quote GÿÉ Not REKT Gÿæ REKT Gÿæ REKT-Factor Gÿæ SHREKT Gÿæ Orange is the new REKT Gÿæ REKTGate Altantis Gÿæ REKTified Gÿæ Agents of REKT Gÿæ Deep REKT 9 Gÿæ Battlestar REKTactica Gÿæ Breaking REKT Gÿæ House of REKT Gÿæ CSI: New REKT Gÿæ Tyrannosaurus REKT Gÿæ REKTum
Zmikund Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 4	Posted - 2014.09.23 09:31:00 - [3] - Quote Ishtar is now most used ship in game so cry for its nerf ... if nerf will come and ppl swap to another ship will you cry for its nerf too?
SmarncaV2 Snuff Box 47	Posted - 2014.09.23 09:33:00 - [4] - Quote Zmikund wrote: Ishtar is now most used ship in game so cry for its nerf ... if nerf will come and ppl swap to another ship will you cry for its nerf too? Depends on wich ship that will be. I've never cryed before about any other ship that was a bit stronger then the others (like a drake, cane, tier 3 bc) BUT! Cruiser tracking with battleship dps at 80km while kiting even further away at 2k m/s is a bit too strong dont you think?
Iain Cariaba 360	Posted - 2014.09.23 09:35:00 - [5] - Quote My question is this. Say the devs give you this nerf to Ishtars you want. At what point do you stop asking for nerfs and adapt to the developing game? Disclaimer: My opinion does not necessarily reflect that of my corp or alliance. My opinion is my own, and if you don't like, that is your problem.
Danny John-Peter Snuff Box 514	Posted - 2014.09.23 09:38:00 - [6] - Quote New reks, guest starring Phantomite. GÿÉ Not REKT Gÿæ REKT Gÿæ The Manchurian CandiREKT Gÿæ Toy StoREKT Gÿæ A bag of REKTy salted crisps Gÿæ Mass EffREKT 2
Danny John-Peter Snuff Box 514	Posted - 2014.09.23 09:41:00 - [7] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: My question is this. Say the devs give you this nerf to Ishtars you want. At what point do you stop asking for nerfs and adapt to the developing game? I will point out, Smarn is right, Ishtars are too flexible a platform, the have BS DPS, BS Projection, HAC Speed, HAC Buffer, HAC Sig and are not attached to there weapon system. That is too many plus points for not enough minus points, and before you say "adapt or die" we already did, doesn't make them any less OP.
SmarncaV2 Snuff Box 47	Posted - 2014.09.23 09:44:00 - [8] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: My question is this. Say the devs give you this nerf to Ishtars you want. At what point do you stop asking for nerfs and adapt to the developing game? Like I said before. This is the first thing that I am really really mad at. A lot of people are complaining about Light missile kiters like Crows but I think that they are really easy to counter. However when you are dealing with Ishtars (solo) it's not so easy to counter them. They have pretty much everything that one wants: utility highs, mids for ewar, speed, cap, t2 resist, good dps, insane range etc.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 718	Posted - 2014.09.23 10:21:00 - [9] - Quote Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf?
SmarncaV2 Snuff Box 47	Posted - 2014.09.23 10:38:00 - [10] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? no
Alvatore DiMarco Capricious Endeavours Ltd 2712	Posted - 2014.09.23 10:48:00 - [11] - Quote Ishtars didn't get enough of a nerf, but it's not just the Ishtars. It's the sentries, too. Ishtars need the other half of that nerf that was held back because :release cycle:, sentries need a thorough evaluation and carriers need to lose the ability to use sentries at all.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 718	Posted - 2014.09.23 11:05:00 - [12] - Quote SmarncaV2 wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? no Then how is the Ishtar overpowered if it gets easily driven off of the field by another ship. By my understanding, a ship that drives a strong ship off of the battlefield is even stronger. Rail-Tengus boast massive range, massive HP, considerable resistances, significant speed, significant tracking and low signature. The Ishtar is inferior in all the departments, except for the range as long as the targets stay away from the drones. The Ishtar might also be faster than the Tengus. but its drones are stationary and Tengus can easily drive Ishtars out and close in on drones so that they can't track anymore, and destroy them to force Isthars to drop new drones which still can't destroy a properly flown Tengu fleet.
Ocih Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums 758	Posted - 2014.09.23 11:10:00 - [13] - Quote According to EVE Kill the number one pilot in EVE is Concord Police Captain, He kills mostly destroyers, followed by Battle Cruisers and no, he doesn't fly an Ishtar.
Danny John-Peter Snuff Box 515	Posted - 2014.09.23 11:41:00 - [14] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: SmarncaV2 wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? no Then how is the Ishtar overpowered if it gets easily driven off of the field by another ship. By my understanding, a ship that drives a strong ship off of the battlefield is even stronger. Rail-Tengus boast massive range, massive HP, considerable resistances, significant speed, significant tracking and low signature. The Ishtar is inferior in all the departments, except for the range as long as the targets stay away from the drones. The Ishtar might also be faster than the Tengus. but its drones are stationary and Tengus can easily drive Ishtars out and close in on drones so that they can't track anymore, and destroy them to force Isthars to drop new drones which still can't destroy a properly flown Tengu fleet. So TIIIs beat HACs? Non shocker?
Aducat Ragnarson Blootered Bastards 198	Posted - 2014.09.23 11:45:00 - [15] - Quote Danny John-Peter wrote: Battlestar REKTactica Gÿæ Wouldn't "Battlestar GalREKTica Gÿæ " be better?
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 668	Posted - 2014.09.23 11:47:00 - [16] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? What is this strange witchcraft you call 'Tactics'? And which station sells the module for it?
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 718	Posted - 2014.09.23 11:58:00 - [17] - Quote Danny John-Peter wrote: So TIIIs beat HACs? Non shocker? Exactly. A general purpose vessel, which is meant to fill many roles, beats a vessel that is specialized in 1 thing and while it does this 1 thing. Hence, I don't see any overpoweredness in the Ishtar (anymore). Besides, the popularity of the Ishtar is also due to the current meta nature of the game of mass blobbing people: With an Ishtar you can still fight someone who's got number superiority over you and don't need to flee or accept complete obliteration. The Ishtar, while very strong, and it's popularity is only the symptom of the rotten state of the game and its players, especially certain entities. Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: What is this strange witchcraft you call 'Tactics'? And which station sells the module for it? Good, at least one person here does not cry for the nerf bat when they can't win with standard tactics against a strong opponent and sees what's necessary to beat it. There's still hope.
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 668	Posted - 2014.09.23 12:00:00 - [18] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Danny John-Peter wrote: So TIIIs beat HACs? Non shocker? Exactly. A general purpose vessel, which is meant to fill many roles, beats a vessel that is specialized in 1 thing and while it does this 1 thing. Hence, I don't see any overpoweredness in the Ishtar (anymore). Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: What is this strange witchcraft you call 'Tactics'? And which station sells the module for it? Good, at least one person her does not cry for the nerf bat when they can't win with standard tactics against a strong opponent and sees what's necessary to beat it. There's still hope. I just finished training for ishtar :D But don't worry, I'm not training 'Moan' to V for when someone destroys my supposedly OP ship...
Danny John-Peter Snuff Box 515	Posted - 2014.09.23 12:25:00 - [19] - Quote In this thread. People accuse people of not adapting even though they have. People stick up for a ship that most of the community accepts is blatantly over-powered. People accuse people of not adapting some more. Circle repeats.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 348	Posted - 2014.09.23 12:27:00 - [20] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? T3s and caps beating ishtars isn't exactly a glowing example of them not being massively broken. Iain Cariaba wrote: My question is this. Say the devs give you this nerf to Ishtars you want. At what point do you stop asking for nerfs and adapt to the developing game? At the point where the counter to ishtars isn't bigger blob of ishtars/massive upshipping. Ishtars are unreasonably difficult to counter compared to every other ship out there once they pass a certain mass - let's call it 20 or so.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 718	Posted - 2014.09.23 12:38:00 - [21] - Quote There are numerous counters to and tactics against Ishtars. What these can't achieve, however, is a change in player attitude. So, as long as players play as they do, deal with it. If it's not Ishtars people can complain about, it's something else - still not acknowledging the real problems of the game and its players. @afkalt It were, as stated, armor caps, ie. Archons, which are as useful to a Tengu fleet as a Thanatos is in a Slowcat fleet. The Tengus had their normal logis aka Scimis.
SmarncaV2 Snuff Box 48	Posted - 2014.09.23 12:50:00 - [22] - Quote So here's what just happened. I was fighting a small frigate gang of bads with a navy augoror. They've had 2 frigate logistics and had me hard tackled but luckily I manged to escape by killing hard tackle off me. Then they decide to bring in an Ishtar. That ishtar dropped Bouncers reaproached the wormhole that the fight was happening on and he started to shoot me with his drones. I could get close to the drones and orbit them at 500m so they wouldnt track me but that would get me killed because there would be too much stuff on me. So I started burning away and at 90km I was still taking huge chunks of damage (12:41:53Combat641 from kazenasi sorani[C-DSD](Ishtar) - Bouncer II - Wrecks) so I was forced to warp off. Before the ishtar people were saying that tier 3 battlecruisers were too strong but if I would pull 90km away from a tier 3 bc he wouldnt hit me because tracking even at that range would be terrible (on long range guns). Please tell me how does one adapt in that situation so that I can go back and pew some more?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 348	Posted - 2014.09.23 12:53:00 - [23] - Quote I know, but they'll still add serious pressure to the enemy fleet. The trouble with the counters is they stop being reasonable at fleets of about 20+ For example - Kill the drones: Small gang, sure. kill 100 sentries....less fine. It's been thought long and hard about, there is very, very little can be done that is a reasonable counter - especially when considering their peer group of other hacs. They have too much going for them, all in one fit. Too much cap, too much range, too much projection, too much mobility for the damage and its projection. They are absolutely in a league of their own - heck it's something that most of the eve community actually agrees on - that's rare indeed! They trample over far too many areas and other ship roles.
Zan Shiro Alternative Enterprises 489	Posted - 2014.09.23 13:02:00 - [24] - Quote Danny John-Peter wrote: In this thread. People accuse people of not adapting even though they have. People stick up for a ship that most of the community accepts is blatantly over-powered. People accuse people of not adapting some more. Circle repeats. This. TBH the fairest caveat I can come up with is remove drone assisting, at least for ishtar (maybe gurista). Domi big fat and slow and I'd let her be. She can't warp to point A, drop sentries and gfto like an asshat who gets their thrills from doing a massive foul smelling fart and leaving the area right away and laughs about it just lingering there. More hardcore could ruin Domi's day however, we can argue that is they'd like. Here is why: One of the drone lovers counters is jam us duh. Nice answer, which ship shall I jam in a small 10 man fleet. I can assume the ishtar is not controlling them...I get 9 guesses now. Or maybe they are playing mind games and it is the ishtar I have written off...the plot thickens. remove drone assist....jam the ishtar and its now a game for all. Might be the ishtar's lucky day and my ecm is the first thing the sentries respond to blap my falcon/scorpion. Or not so lucky and those sentries are going for the fast tackle flying under the guns of the sentries. But I am never been a fan of this mechanic and would like to see it go away. Or ccp could give high slot assist command to somebody. I am fair man and open minded here. CCP has this halfway done. They can remove drone assist to make it even. Or they can give other high slots this option too as a peace offering and make it even. I just want the even part tbh...so that way when 5 ishtars lay their garde fart bombs....my fc (assuming has common of several guns) can just line up and knock em down. Vice the current duster cluck you an get getting 10+ players to focus fire 10's of sentries in way vaguely defined as organized...if lucky lol.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 718	Posted - 2014.09.23 13:05:00 - [25] - Quote SmarncaV2 wrote: So here's what just happened. I was fighting a small frigate gang of bads with a navy augoror. They've had 2 frigate logistics and had me hard tackled but luckily I manged to escape by killing hard tackle off me. Then they decide to bring in an Ishtar. That ishtar dropped Bouncers reaproached the wormhole that the fight was happening on and he started to shoot me with his drones. I could get close to the drones and orbit them at 500m so they wouldnt track me but that would get me killed because there would be too much stuff on me. So I started burning away and at 90km I was still taking huge chunks of damage (12:41:53Combat641 from kazenasi sorani[C-DSD](Ishtar) - Bouncer II - Wrecks) so I was forced to warp off. Before the ishtar people were saying that tier 3 battlecruisers were too strong but if I would pull 90km away from a tier 3 bc he wouldnt hit me because tracking even at that range would be terrible (on long range guns). Please tell me how does one adapt in that situation so that I can go back and pew some more? Fly further away. Bouncer range is between 80-100km, beyond that the damage and tracking is close to nulla. You were also fighting against 3 players (?) in 1 ship. No tactics work there anyways, because you need at least 2 people to pull that off (for instance, 1 frig that burns behind the Ishtar and provides you a warp in to the Ishtar.) If there wouldn't have been more than the Ishtar against you, you could have likely arrived at his drones and destroyed them. As far as I understand your report, the other ships presence prevented you from doing that and the Ishtar was their then main DPS. Naturally, there's only so much you can do in 1 cruiser against several people. Would it have been different, it the Ishtar was a Vagabond with its massive tank and close range DPS or Muninn with its excellent sniping capabilities, or a Cerberus which can shoot you with missiles from 120m+ away (albeit lower DPS, but from which you can't escape because it follows you around and is not stationary.) or an Eagle's sniping or a Deimos' close range DPS?
Milton Middleson Rifterlings Point Blank Alliance 494	Posted - 2014.09.23 13:13:00 - [26] - Quote One day, people will learn that OP does not mean "unbeatable under any circumstance, ever" and that it is possible to outplay or outescalate someone using something overpowered without that constituting evidence against its strength.
Caleb Seremshur The Atomic Fallout Kids 359	Posted - 2014.09.23 13:19:00 - [27] - Quote Iain Cariaba wrote: My question is this. Say the devs give you this nerf to Ishtars you want. At what point do you stop asking for nerfs and adapt to the developing game? Well just making drone control augmentors harder to fit ie take 1000pg or something would kill ishtars for big fleets right away. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=348015 T3 OHing subsystem review and rebalance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=290346 LP faction weapon store costs rebalancing
SmarncaV2 Snuff Box 48	Posted - 2014.09.23 13:33:00 - [28] - Quote Milton Middleson wrote: One day, people will learn that OP does not mean "unbeatable under any circumstance, ever" and that it is possible to outplay or outescalate someone using something overpowered without that constituting evidence against its strength. I know that everything is counterable. But seriously do you think that Ishtar is well balanced?
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 348	Posted - 2014.09.23 13:35:00 - [29] - Quote I think you missed his point.
Danny John-Peter Snuff Box 516	Posted - 2014.09.23 13:45:00 - [30] - Quote SmarncaV2 wrote: Milton Middleson wrote: One day, people will learn that OP does not mean "unbeatable under any circumstance, ever" and that it is possible to outplay or outescalate someone using something overpowered without that constituting evidence against its strength. I know that everything is counterable. But seriously do you think that Ishtar is well balanced? Smarn missing the point. As per the norm.
Donnachadh United Allegiance of Undesirables 22	Posted - 2014.09.23 14:29:00 - [31] - Quote Just a crazy though. The fact that most here want the Ishtar nerfed is a perfect indicator of the root cause of the problem, failure to adapt to the changing landscape of EVE. The Ishtar and it's resists, speed etc is not relevant, its soft squishy perfectly stationary in space drones are the real issue and to be honest they are easy to deal with by a simple adjustment in tactics. Perhaps running some level 4's with a domi or rattlesnake would be helpful here in developing tactics against a drone ship since the NPC AI has this pretty well figured out. But for those who despise missions, or think they are worthless in planning tactics for a PvP engagement here are the basics. Sentries are small and have cruiser class EHP true but they also hang completely stationary in space, with a max effective range from as little 40k to about 100k depending on which sentries are deployed. Those I know in the game that have had to face these fleets took a page from the playbook of the NPC in lvl4 missions. They adapted tactics to a long range take out the drones doctrine. As the drones start to die the rest of the fleet warps in tackles and destroys the now increasingly vulnerable Ishtars and as the saying goes game over. As a drones pilot I find it very interesting. Drones are finally being raised to the level of an effective primary weapons system and look at the response. Many crying for the nerf bat because there current tactics/doctrines have no real way of dealing with this new threat. So I say rise up, adapt to this new challenge and over come that is what this game is all about.
Danny John-Peter Snuff Box 516	Posted - 2014.09.23 14:31:00 - [32] - Quote What did I just read.
Vulfen Snuff Box 139	Posted - 2014.09.23 14:43:00 - [33] - Quote I Just think the ishtar needs to have 1 less mid slot and it would be fine
SmarncaV2 Snuff Box 48	Posted - 2014.09.23 14:51:00 - [34] - Quote Danny John-Peter wrote: What did I just read. I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp
Bechuanaland Ministry of War Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2014.09.23 15:26:00 - [35] - Quote With apologies for not exact numerics, solution to the Ishtar-problem is quite simple in my imagination. Merely, apply 'Gallente-ization' to drone bonuses, similar (but slightly more extremely) than Cerberus or Drake. Currently 'normal' Shield-Ishtar looks like: Garde II: 625 DPS to ~50km Curator II: 600 DPS to ~80km Bouncer II: 550 DPS to ~110km Warden II: 500 DPS to ~125km It's very excessive! Normal ship can choose to do very great damage at short range, or to do shooting further with less damage; Ishtar can do both. Comparing Deimos, for example, it can do: ~ 650 DPS to very close with short-blaster shooting; ~ 550 DPS to ~25km with long-blaster shooting or short-railgun shooting; ~ 300 DPS to ~80km with long-railgun shooting; it can also not choose the damage types it's doing. Perhaps, if we make "CreoDron" bonuses to drone damage, so that they are applying only to Gallente drone series, same Shield-Ishtar might have performance of: Garde II: 625 DPS to ~50km Curator II: 300 DPS to ~80km Bouncer II: 275 DPS to ~110km Warden II: 250 DPS to ~125km Then, that is comparatively similar damage at range to similar large cruisers, having advantage of total choice in the damage type, advantage of tracking free from the movement of the ship, disadvantage of the drones being shot, disadvantage of enemy fighting 'from' your drones in Garde-case, since no longer it's possible for Ishtars to fight from 100km drone cloud as well as before. Now, that is still very much damage at quite long range for Garde-case; and perhaps range should not be quite that great, but these are more problematic to use than other types, being why they are used not as much now in Fleet-situation. Also it's not taking the issue of Heavy Drone-Ishtar, but that is mostly more unexplored area, with some exceptions (PVE-Ishtar, and Gecko-Ishtar). Argument that Ishtar must have unique ability to do such damage at such range, is not good, in my opinion; no one suggests that Deimos and Zealot must be diverged, despite a Pulse-Zealot / Blaster-Deimos and Beam-Zealot / Railgun-Deimos being quite similar ships in many ways.
afkalt Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 348	Posted - 2014.09.23 15:34:00 - [36] - Quote Push a mid to a low. Forces an armor tank and slows them down. At the same time, cut their CPU so that fitting DLAs is harder and reduce (or kill) the control range bonus - the aim being if you want super long range, you have to trade and lose substantial damage like everyone else needs to. Their garde DPS really isnt a big deal, plenty of stuff can outrange that and counter it well. Edit: Or make the tracking/optimal bonus just a tracking bonus. Not run those numbers yet though.
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 5100	Posted - 2014.09.23 15:44:00 - [37] - Quote SmarncaV2 wrote: Danny John-Peter wrote: What did I just read. I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp i thought that as well...he didn't did he?......... =]I[=
Mag's the united 17870	Posted - 2014.09.23 15:53:00 - [38] - Quote Ralph King-Griffin wrote: SmarncaV2 wrote: Danny John-Peter wrote: What did I just read. I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp i thought that as well...he didn't did he?......... Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Didn't even need to take her to the dealer. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Ralph King-Griffin Lords.Of.Midnight The Devil's Warrior Alliance 5103	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:07:00 - [39] - Quote Mag's wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: SmarncaV2 wrote: Danny John-Peter wrote: What did I just read. I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp i thought that as well...he didn't did he?......... Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Didn't even need to take her to the dealer. love it =]I[=
Corraidhin Farsaidh Farsaidh's Freeborn 668	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:09:00 - [40] - Quote Mag's wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: SmarncaV2 wrote: Danny John-Peter wrote: What did I just read. I think that he just compared lvl 4 missions to pvp i thought that as well...he didn't did he?......... Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Didn't even need to take her to the dealer. Good to see someone who really has their priorities right :D
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1261	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:14:00 - [41] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: There are numerous counters to and tactics against Ishtars. What these can't achieve, however, is a change in player attitude. So, as long as players play as they do, deal with it. If it's not Ishtars people can complain about, it's something else - still not acknowledging the real problems of the game and its players. @afkalt It were, as stated, armor caps, ie. Archons, which are as useful to a Tengu fleet as a Thanatos is in a Slowcat fleet. The Tengus had their normal logis aka Scimis. Remote doomsday were not a problem guys, the player getting wreck were just doing it wrong. Same thing for AoE domsday, players should of applied a different strategy to counter it. The armor reps were usefull unless not a single one of the ships in the fleet ever went into armor. The buffer your armor + structure provide on a shield tanked ship can easyly mean staying on field long enough to catch reps from the scimitar instead of getting blown up. Keeping your armor full if you can is better than letting it get damaged and leave it as is every time a spike get you a bit into armor.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 821	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:31:00 - [42] - Quote better reduce its speed again, rather than nerfing sentries. these brawling armour ishtars are out of control and need to be stopped.
Catherine Laartii Providence Guard Templis CALSF 287	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:40:00 - [43] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? Are you insane or just incapable of logical reasoning? Sure they need a balance pass, but they're goddamn strategic cruisers! Saying that they're OP relative to a HAC is like saying AFs are OP relative to t1 frigates. Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP. If you want to talk balances issues then talk about how ships fare relative to their own class instead of pulling a random red herring out of your ass. The ishtar sticks out like a sore thumb in relation to classical favorites like the Cerberus and the Vagabond because of the completely bonkers place sentry drones are in right now. I would like to point out for the record that this is an extension of the issue with drones and not with the ship itself; it just so happens to be geared towards using sentries particularly well, so while we can say that it's the ship, I'd say that as long as they're making it a drone boat (and they have to) then it's going to be facing this problem.
Frostys Virpio The Mjolnir Bloc The Bloc 1261	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:43:00 - [44] - Quote Catherine Laartii wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP. According to the info we got from CCP some time ago, T3 are supposed to be more versatile than T2 but less powerfull at single tasks. They could do all cruiser jobs (logi, recon, HAC) but not exactly as good as the dedicated ship.
Mag's the united 17871	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:47:00 - [45] - Quote Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote: Mag's wrote: Ralph King-Griffin wrote: i thought that as well...he didn't did he?......... Not sure what he did, but the wife said yes to the Aprilia. Didn't even need to take her to the dealer. Good to see someone who really has their priorities right :D Got to have some fun in life. Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the lions will ignore you in the savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Catherine Laartii Providence Guard Templis CALSF 287	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:55:00 - [46] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP. According to the info we got from CCP some time ago, T3 are supposed to be more versatile than T2 but less powerfull at single tasks. They could do all cruiser jobs (logi, recon, HAC) but not exactly as good as the dedicated ship. Power at its most basic form is access; even if they get a balance pass and get nerfed into the ground, they will always be more inherently flexible no matter how they're turned. As we're talking about hypothetical balance passes that will not occur for some time, I will say with certainty as things currently stand that yes; most t3 ships with good combat sub combos are stronger than HACs, even the Ishtar right now.
Rivr Luzade Coreli Corporation Ineluctable. 718	Posted - 2014.09.23 16:55:00 - [47] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP. According to the info we got from CCP some time ago, T3 are supposed to be more versatile than T2 but less powerfull at single tasks. They could do all cruiser jobs (logi, recon, HAC) but not exactly as good as the dedicated ship. As far as I can see, the Tengu is better as a Rail Platform than an Eagle. As 1 example. vOv @Catherine Laartii You should calm down and reconsider your use of colorful vocabulary as you employ it way too often and it loses its effect on others. Besides, I am sure you have read Katia Echerie's AF thread depicting some AF being worse or only equal to T1 frigs. Not to mention that Sentry drones are in a perfect spot. Again (and probably not the last time): It is the bonuses of the hulls which make snetries and all drones on Ishtars, Gilas, Worms and Dominixes as good as they are. should get a another life instead of discussing this over and over and over again with people
Catherine Laartii Providence Guard Templis CALSF 287	Posted - 2014.09.23 17:02:00 - [48] - Quote Rivr Luzade wrote: Frostys Virpio wrote: Catherine Laartii wrote: Rivr Luzade wrote: Just yesterday a larger group of Ishtars war driven of the field by a smaller number of Tengus with some armor capital support in a fight I was coincidentally part of. The Tengus killed all the logi of the Ishtars and then proceeded to kill the Ishtars' drones. This left the Isthars with no choice but to abandon the field. Are Tengus OP and need a nerf? Of COURSE they're stronger...they're a TECH 3 SHIP. According to the info we got from CCP some time ago, T3 are supposed to be more versatile than T2 but less powerfull at single tasks. They could do all cruiser jobs (logi, recon, HAC) but not exactly as good as the dedicated ship. As far as I can see, the Tengu is better as a Rail Platform than an Eagle. As 1 example. vOv @Catherine Laartii You should calm down and reconsider your use of colorful vocabulary as you employ it way too often and it loses its effect on others. Besides, I am sure you have read Katia Echerie's AF thread depicting some AF being worse or only equal to T1 frigs. Not to mention that Sentry drones are in a perfect spot. Again (and probably not the last time): It is the bonuses of the hulls which make snetries and all drones on Ishtars, Gilas, Worms and Dominixes as good as they are. should get a another life instead of discussing this over and over and over again with people You're citing an inaccurate thread about t1 frigs being stronger than t2, and you think sentries are in a good spot? Please; if that were the case nobody would be flying hawks and harpies everywhere (especially fw lowsec) and we wouldn't be having this discussion about the ishtar in the first place. It's not the bonuses on the hull; it's the hull itself and how they're applied. Sentries are inherently a battleship-sized weapon platform and while we can make the same argument about heavy drones, it's not applicable since we don't have to factor in damage projection with them. The ishtar being able to use them puts it in the same kind of role that Attack Bcs have with being able to use oversized weapons, except with specialist bonuses to damage projection and application, as well as that nice mwd sig bloom role bonus. Again; I'm not saying the ishtar itself is to blame here; it's just the fact that it's taking advantage of a broken weapon system that makes it as popular as it is, and the ship itself shouldn't be nerfed any more than it has.
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 821	Posted - 2014.09.23 17:22:00 - [49] - Quote the ship itself should be unnerfed. drone ships shouldn't need awful stats. why is it slower than an eagle?

ISD Ezwal ISD Community Communications Liaisons 2333	Posted - 2014.09.23 22:04:00 - [50] - Quote SmarncaV2 wrote: Please look at it! That's not an entirely new idea. Nor a proposal for a new feature I might add. Thread locked. The Rules: 17. Redundant and re-posted threads will be locked. As a courtesy to other forum users, please search to see if there is a thread already open on the topic you wish to discuss. If so, please place your comments there instead. Multiple threads on the same subject clutter up the forums needlessly, causing good feedback and ideas to be lost. Please keep discussions regarding a topic to a single thread. ISD Ezwal Vice Admiral Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department


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