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Stealthy Huginn pvp build?

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Eudoxus Ars Caelestis	Posted - 2006.08.08 09:49:00 - [1] Hi all, I am trying to figure out how to keep the element of surprise with the Huginn while being viable for fighting frigs/inty's and maybe larger ships (I am not sure how effective the Huginn actually is so am not sure how much larger it can fight). I am mostly on my own or in very small gangs (2, 3 tops) so need the ability to either kill you (and relatively quick) or get away. So for my Huginn with those criteria I was thinking: H protocloak (cheap, does job, not moving while cloaked anyway) H 720mm artillery H 720mm artillery H heavy missile launcher H heavy missile launcher H heavy missile launcher M sensor booster M domination(?) warp scrambler (something that will get me 30k or so) M webber M webber M sensor dampener M sensor dampener L Plate L ? L ? Now where I am a bit hung up 1) would it be better to have 2xarty and 3xheavy or 3xarty and 2xheavy? 2) how important is the sensor booster really, could I swap it out for something more useful? Another sensor damper? A target painter? An invul field to take a bit of any hits I might take? 3) depending on the answer to 1, I am thinking I need at least one of either a ballistic control unit for the missiles or a gyrostabilizer for the arty (or 1 of each or two of 1)? 4) not sure everything fits as I don't even have at least one of the modules (the long range webber) so maybe that requires something else in the lows or mids but I would think it would be pretty *****ble 5) if fitting problem, I guess I could fit 650mm easier maybe Please let me know what you think. I really want to keep the element of surprise with the cloak as it just seems so 'cool' to me to catch the unaware as they warp into what they thought was a safe situation - even though it probably compromises the build. Regards, Eudoxus
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.08 09:54:00 - [2] According to the discussions on Scrapheap Challenge, the missiles are the important part of your DPS. I dont think that the cloak will be terribly effective, but given what's been said there, I'd drop a turret slot for it and not a missile one. The 30k Scrambler is a must. Or at least, a 26k one. Full tackling from that range is awesome. Other than that, it's simply a matter of whether you use extenders and put DPS in low, or use more mids for EW and put plates and a rep in low, as far as I'm concerned. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.08 11:07:00 - [3] The real problem with a prototype cloak is that it really does hurt your locking times, both with sensor resolution, and the recalibration delay. Speed's less the issue. It works as a 'surprise' provided you've got a tackler, but otherwise they have more than enough time to warp off.
Eudoxus Ars Caelestis	Posted - 2006.08.08 11:27:00 - [4] Thanks for the tips so far. So I will stick with the high slot weaponry (assuming the 720s fit, else work way down to 650s even though I gather by then they will be tickling in comparison to the heavy missiles). As per the proto - maybe it is the bonus to bombers but I use the proto on a bomber all the time and there is no delay. I will have to see if there is one with the Huginn. If there is and it is bad, is it rectified by getting the improved cloak? I really would like to stick with the style if you know what I mean - the ship can cloak so I want to use that element. If I flew interceptors and some build made them a bit more effective but you sat in place it would feel kinda the way it does to me to not use a cloak on a cloaking specialized ship. YMMV of course but that is my thinking. I have to find one of these longer range scramblers - what are they called? Gistiis? Dominators? What kinda price are we talking? My guess is something just painful like 30mm. I want the one that gets me out past 20km for a reasonable amount of money - given while I am learning to use this ship if I am going to go boom I would prefer it be a tad cheaper. What is an extender? I assume it is a mid slot item? I have used expanders (for cargo) but don't recall seeing 'extenders' - is that slang a target painter or a sensor booster? One of those for I assume range and a dps (I was thinking damage per second is what you meant) which I assume is some other module in low; what is a dps? This combo of extender/dps is meant to work how vs EW/plate/repairer? I gather the EW is meant to not get you locked and if you do you have plate and a repairer to fix it; so what is the idea behind extenders/dps? Can you tell I have not used a lot of these modules - my typical pvp is bombing which requires very simple loadouts.
Testy Mctest	Posted - 2006.08.08 11:30:00 - [5] Last time I bought them (while ago now, and market prices have gone up across the board), I was paying about 30mil for a 26km scrambler, and about 50-60mil for a 30km scrambler. 30km are Domination Warp Disruptors. The name of 26km is escaping me. I suck at faction modules. Scrapheap Challenge Forums
Janus Ovellian Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.08 11:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Eudoxus What is an extender? I assume it is a mid slot item? I have used expanders (for cargo) but don't recall seeing 'extenders' - is that slang a target painter or a sensor booster? One of those for I assume range and a dps (I was thinking damage per second is what you meant) which I assume is some other module in low; what is a dps? This combo of extender/dps is meant to work how vs EW/plate/repairer? I gather the EW is meant to not get you locked and if you do you have plate and a repairer to fix it; so what is the idea behind extenders/dps? Extenders increase your shield hp. Linkage This is where the parallel to the plate/ew or extender dps comes in. With a plate + ew you use armor tanking and ew to effectively supplement the amount of damage you do against your opponent versus the damage they do against you. With an extender you use the low slots to fit ballistic control units or gyros to increase your Damage Per Second (dps). Interesting times await...
Eudoxus Ars Caelestis	Posted - 2006.08.08 13:19:00 - [7] Dang, my reply didn't take so here goes again.... I am comfy enough with the high slots so far - proto, 2x arty, 3x heavy In lows I stuck a bcu and am debating a second and then either a wcs or a plate Mids is rough. I have a sensor booster to get lock quicker, a scrambler (still working on finding a longer range one that is reasonable price and 24km range), 2x X5 webbers. Then I kinda stall. Was thinking either target painter, invul field, sensor damper or ecm. My hunch is I don't need the painter. My other hunch is 'singles' split among the two slots is probably not the most effective - ie doing a single damper and a single ecm probably doesnt cut enough range or block enough targetting nor does either of those with a single invul field provide enough defence should they fail. So dual dampers, will that cut most peoples range in smaller ships such that I won't necessarily be getting shot at? Or should I expect to get shot but block it with ecm. Or should I accept I am getting hit and tank it with invuls. Here is where my experience fails me to 'guess'. Thanks for the feedback so far!
Eudoxus Ars Caelestis	Posted - 2006.08.08 13:49:00 - [8] Edited by: Eudoxus on 08/08/2006 13:50:04 Well I tested out how long post cloaking it takes before you can start to lock someone and it is useless. I thought maybe the improved cloak might help but it seems even worse. If I understand it right (granted I tested on an asteroid if that makes any difference) - 18 seconds recal on a proto and 20 on a improved (the only 2 you can use on the ship) are 18 and 20 seconds respectively. I have cloaking 4 so that would indicate 0.9^418 or 0.9^420 - neither of which will ever let you decloak and attack anybody with recals of 10.5ish seconds at best assuming cloaking at 5 (let alone my measly 4 which is a month away from 5). If that is indeed the way it is supposed to work, I am trying to figure why this is in the cloaking class of ships at all. You wouldn't want to use it as a recon ship (thats what the real recon ship is for or use a frigate class ship for scouting). You can't realistically use it as a technique other than maybe having bait that wont run the second it realizes you just decloaked. So what is the point of this ship - clearly there are normal cruisers that can fit a load of guns and EW or what have you just like this ship. Does it have superb *****bility vs those that I am missing otherwise would it not make a lot more sense to fly a cruiser of some sort equiped just the same for a lot less money and no loss in effectiveness? What did I miss? There is no point flying this ship to me if it is just a cruiser that can happen to fit a cloak but never gets to use for anything other than, uh, well, going to a safe spot to hide? I mean, why put it onboard and give up some dps if you are just going to be that much more likely to need to run. Hmmm, this thing might go up for sale at this rate.
Still Hart Aurora Empire	Posted - 2006.08.08 21:52:00 - [9] It was my understanding that ALL covert ops class ships (covops, bomber, force recon, combat recon) get that "hidden bonus" of removing the locktime limitation. I am currently training my butt off for a recon ship and I'll be very disappointed if my rapier can't lock right away after uncloaking. BTW, I'd recommend getting the 30km domination warp scram. You definately want to be out of heavy NOS range (25km) and 26km is a bit close for comfort if you ask me. Domi warp scrams are going for 150mil last I checked the other day. SH _____________________
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.08 22:04:00 - [10] Covert ops ships get a bonus to recalibration time, so they're 'sensible' (IIRC about 5s with cloaking 4). Stealth bombers get the bonus where they suffer no recalibration delay at all. Domi scrams (30km) seem to be going for about 100mil these days. I think you're getting confused about recon ships. The Huginn is a combat recon, and doesn't get cloaking bonuses. The Rapier is the force recon, and that one can use covert cloaks, and recalibrate in a sensible amount of time. The Huginn's speciality is really the sickeningly long range on it's webifiers. When combined with an interdictor, warp bubble or arazu it's totally deadly. Oh, and cloaking recalibration is 10% per level, so -50% at cloaking 5. (Not 0.9^5)
Janus Ovellian Minmatar	Posted - 2006.08.08 22:07:00 - [11] Originally by: Still Hart It was my understanding that ALL covert ops class ships (covops, bomber, force recon, combat recon) get that "hidden bonus" of removing the locktime limitation. I am currently training my butt off for a recon ship and I'll be very disappointed if my rapier can't lock right away after uncloaking. BTW, I'd recommend getting the 30km domination warp scram. You definately want to be out of heavy NOS range (25km) and 26km is a bit close for comfort if you ask me. Domi warp scrams are going for 150mil last I checked the other day. SH The locktime limitation isn't an issue for the rapier as it can use a cov ops cloak, while a huginn cannot. The locking penalty is a result of using a subpar cloaking device - the combat recons and stealth bombers do not get the bonus to reduce the cpu requirement of cloaking devices to enable them to fit the cov ops cloak, whereas the force recons and covert ops frigates do. Interesting times await...
Eudoxus Ars Caelestis	Posted - 2006.08.09 02:16:00 - [12] I have bad news for you Still Hart - be prepared to be disappointed with the recalibration delay. With a proto cloak delay of 18 seconds (or 20 on improved) you are looking at best with level 5 cloaking at 9 seconds of recalibration delay. I have cloaking 4 and tested it out last night with the Huginn vs a friends Raven. I decloaked and it was basically about 10 seconds before the lock would start to lock - and by then of course add on the lock time of another few seconds. I was of course well and truly locked by the Raven and would have been eating missiles up the wazoo well in advance of being able to do anything to even defend myself let alone aggress them with the 'jump' element of surprise. Basically, you can't use the cloak on the combat recon ship in combat - except maybe to hide at a safe spot if you run away which is not really part of 'combat'. The force recon version will be better due to the recal delay on the covert op cloak being 10 seconds so you can get it down to 6 seconds (cloak 4) in relatively short order. Cloak 5 to get it down to 5 seconds is almost a full month of training...ouch. I am a bit puzzled about the real advantage of this ship. As mentioned "The Huginn's speciality is really the sickeningly long range on it's webifiers". But you can buy long range webbers - I saw a lot of them on escrow last night while looking for the tougher to find long range scramblers. I can't quite remember the value but I thought they were around 30mm (?). So based on that, you can buy a Rupture for 5mm isk, slap in a long range webber and have the bulk of what the Huginn can give you for 25mm less isk but have one less total slot (lose 3 mids, gain 2 lows). I will have to check that price tonight as I was not looking for webbers as mentioned so was not really looking closely at those prices. Based on this I am surprised I don't see a lot of 0.0 ruptures running around - although there are tons of stabbers which I assume is due to the 6 high slots. Don't get me wrong, in a gang it is an effective ship - but so would be any other cruiser fitted out reasonably well. The main thing I am disappointed with is just that the whole 'recon' element of this ship seems utterly pointless. Throw a proto cloak on a Rupture (or any ship for that matter) and it is a 'recon' ship as well basically. Not being able to effectively use the 'recon' element in combat on the combat recon seems to be a bit borked to me.
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.09 02:41:00 - [13] Edited by: Mr Peanut on 09/08/2006 02:44:12 As previously stated on this thread, the Huginn isn't a cloak ship. A cloak will take CPU and a hi-slot. If you must have the cloak, know that it won't save you from anything with a MWD or maybe even an AB cruiser depending on the range once you reveal yourself to it. If the enemy gets within 2k of you (they will attempt to do this once you cloak), your cloak will deactivate and you are screwed. Worse yet, a close-range ship will already be on its way to wtfpwn you. With the massive velocity penalty that a prototype cloak gives, a non-stealth bomber will be a sitting duck at most ranges (yes, a fast frig could live, but it probably won't be fighting at that range anyway). Also, why do you need dual webbers? I understand that Huginn gets a bonus to them, but two webs w/o an AB seems unecessary. That being said, the 2x sensor damps aren't very useful either because with the recalibration the ship won't be able to use them before the enemy locks. It could help on frigs and maybe cruisers in an effort to break the lock, but that's it. Maybe keep the webs and get rid of one of them? IMO web+AB is overall more useful than 2x web (although the AB will eat PG). If you're going to fit the cloak, the only way to avoid being rammed out of cloak at that range (the process that I just described) is to have the AB or MWD running before you cloak in order to get a cycle in. Also, you are hoping to fight outside of webber range (10km w/o faction module) right? This will mean that a MWD/AB will be very useful in order to keep at range. As for the other lows, an EANM would help, and either a medium repper, another EANM, a damage control, or a fitting module (I'm not sure if this will fit or not) could help.
Rigsta Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2006.08.09 02:49:00 - [14] As we seem to have agreed on already, the T2 ships designed for cloaking are your best bet. A pack of stealth bombers fitted to work together or recon cruisers would be your best bet. More training time and cost since they're T2 but well worth it. For what you want, stealth bombers would be ideal. ----------------------------------------------- CRY HAVOC! And let slip the combat drones! To meander aimlessly towards your target... Perhaps stopping for a picnic along the way... And then turn
Eudoxus Ars Caelestis	Posted - 2006.08.09 04:48:00 - [15] Edited by: Eudoxus on 09/08/2006 04:48:55 Now maybe it is a misunderstanding on my part but part of being a 'recon' class ship is the ability to recon type work. Now clearly, the FR ship can do this given its ability to warp while cloaked; so it can easily infiltrate enemy territory. My thought/expectation was that the combat recon was meant to be similar in nature to the stealth bomber - can't warp while cloaked but a good (well some say good, some say gimped) ambush type ship while in enemy territory; with the vulnerability of needing to reveal itself while moving around. To me, having the Huginn in the recon group I expected it to actually be able to more effectively make use of recon skills ie similar to a stealth bomber it would get a benefit when using a cloak in combat vs a 'normal' ship using a cloak. For the stealth bomber, the no recalibration delay is good (actually, given the softness of the ship it is vital) and clearly differentiates it from 'normal' ships. Now I wasn't thinking it was a zero recal on the Huginn (and other combat recons) but thought there would be some bonus of some form to make using the cloak in combat part of the package - given it is in the cloaking/recon lineup. Clearly that is not the case and I was mistaken (and disappointed). So it is recon inasumuch as my Mammoth hauler is recon once I put a cloak on it. It can cloak and that is it. I think it can be an effective ship, and can look into using it but going forward, pending some change to make the cloaking element actually integral to its use, it is just going to be an expensive cruiser with some good slots. Swap out the cloak for arties or a nos or something. And given that would lose the small utility of hiding and the huge utility of the element of surprise, yea, I would definitely be putting in a AB into mids at the cost of something else in order to be more able to dictate range and run. The ability to run will be needed as you can't dictate your encounter without the cloak. And yes, I agree the bomber is effective albeit with the caveat of being excruciatingly vulnerable. I really wish the thing could warp cloaked but that is a whole other thread.
Merin Ryskin Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.09 05:21:00 - [16] Remember, the combat recons aren't supposed to be stealthy. We get two kinds of recon ships: 1) Force recons, a covert-cloaking ewar ship. 2) Combat recons, an ewar ship with decent combat power and even better ewar ability than the force recons. Note the focus on ewar. That's their job, above all else. And they do it extremely well. Both are priceless additions to small groups. You just have a choice of whether you want stealth or damage to supplement your ewar ability.
Eudoxus Ars Caelestis	Posted - 2006.08.09 05:33:00 - [17] Ah, well that is a sensible enough explanation I guess. You see, to me with the emphasis on 'recon' (its in the name after all) along with one of the two being the only other ship in the game that can use a covert ops cloak I put that together as recon = 'cloaking type' ships. Recon to me means sneakily getting information or getting in a position to attack. It isn't assisting other gang members by electronic countermeasures or what have you. Maybe they should have been named a bit differently - Force EWAR!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.09 08:22:00 - [18] Originally by: Mr Peanut Also, why do you need dual webbers? I understand that Huginn gets a bonus to them, but two webs w/o an AB seems unecessary. That being said, the 2x sensor damps aren't very useful either because with the recalibration the ship won't be able to use them before the enemy locks. It could help on frigs and maybe cruisers in an effort to break the lock, but that's it. Maybe keep the webs and get rid of one of them? IMO web+AB is overall more useful than 2x web (although the AB will eat PG). If you're going to fit the cloak, the only way to avoid being rammed out of cloak at that range (the process that I just described) is to have the AB or MWD running before you cloak in order to get a cycle in. Also, you are hoping to fight outside of webber range (10km w/o faction module) right? This will mean that a MWD/AB will be very useful in order to keep at range. As for the other lows, an EANM would help, and either a medium repper, another EANM, a damage control, or a fitting module (I'm not sure if this will fit or not) could help. Huginns get a huge bonus to webber range such that they can engage at 20km and still have a target webbed. So with 2 webbers and a warp disruptor, you can 'hold' a target right in your optimal. A 90% webber will often still mean a ship is able to close or disengage, where two 75%s drop it's speed so low that it's going no where. 2x RSD IIs with decent skills (signal supression 3 or so) will drop a BS locking range to 20km. Add on a third just to be sure. Any other ship, unless it's heavily sensor boosted will not be able to lock you as you pound on them from 20km away. Your recalibration delay will mean that they get to shoot first, but all you need to is survive that initial window. Personally I think the Huginn is best used _without_ a cloak, but to each their own.
Captain Comatose	Posted - 2006.08.09 08:24:00 - [19] Read the ship bonuses - nothing in there about cloaking.
Eudoxus Ars Caelestis	Posted - 2006.08.09 09:09:00 - [20] "Your recalibration delay will mean that they get to shoot first, but all you need to is survive that initial window. Personally I think the Huginn is best used _without_ a cloak, but to each their own." Yup, I like the idea that if I can survive the initial hit from my target that I can stick around and engage it post that (invul field might be nice with this). I think the hole in that theory is anything that you CAN kill should you try to engage SHOULD be smart enough to run away and would have time (well maybe not a really dumb hauler warping to a gate at 15 which would be kinda nice). So I agree that it definitely is best used without one. And yea, dual webbers! Still not sure if I stick with it or just try and use the Rapier instead as it is closer to what I was envisioning (granted with a much smaller potential target list). I had just mistakenly assumed with the FR having the use of the covert cloak and this one being in the same 'class' that I would be getting a SB type ship. No, I didn't read the manual but I only paid 45mm for the ship so it doesn't really matter. My bad, but not that bad since I can sell it and make money should I not like it.
Leandro Salazar Aeon Industries	Posted - 2006.08.09 10:00:00 - [21] Imho, the really good thing about the huginn is the combination of web bonus and painter bonus on a relatively resilient ship. 3 painters blow an enemy sig up by factor 2.73 (with sig focusing 4), making even a vagabond exceed the exp radius of Jav torps, and blow up any non-minmatar battleship beyond the exp radius of rage/citadel torps. All the while dual webs ensure that they will not evade damage through speed either. And all that from like 30-40km away. Of course that is mainly useful in a gang... --------- ZOMG my sig was concordokkened! Link removed due to bad language on remote site. -wystler
GHAY WATCHER	Posted - 2006.08.09 11:34:00 - [22] im suprised no one uses target painters with this ship as it gets such a nice bonus. A combination of webbers and tps in a gang would be nice as you assume you have tackling power already??? as the poster above says with 3 tps you blow a ship up so large that it will get decimated and with the webs everyone will hit it nicely. It seems this would be a brilliant ship to have for blowing up the primaryu target. Why dont you put 3 tp II s and 2 faction webbers and sensor booster. A small tank in lows. Hopefully the damaging ships will be targetted before you and you would have done your job by the time they got to you. If you wanna use a cloak and no tps then why dont you get a cov ops cloak and use a rapier instead. I guess the above setup is more useful for gangs of more people than 2-3 maybe 5-10, so may not be viable in your situation. Just some ideas
Garramon Gallente Sturmgrenadier Inc	Posted - 2006.08.09 12:30:00 - [23] Please point me in the direction of 20km+ webbers that don't take BS amount of powergrid without the use of a minnie recon ship. That's right, you won't find them, because the longest range is 15km with 90%. ------------------------------------------------
voidvim Minmatar Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.08.09 13:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Garramon Please point me in the direction of 20km+ webbers that don't take BS amount of powergrid without the use of a minnie recon ship. That's right, you won't find them, because the longest range is 15km with 90%. Huginn: Recon Ships Skill Bonus: 60% bonus to stasis webifier range
Dranadar Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.09 14:13:00 - [25] Edited by: Dranadar on 09/08/2006 14:15:40 Whats the issues involved with using a BS - say a Phoon - speced with 4 Cruise Missile launchers and 2 cloaks. Decloak - fire FoF missiles and unload drones, attack with drones and recloak using the 2nd device. Any1 tried using FoF missiles and double cloaks? Dranadar - Space Monkey GTC SALES DISCUSSION THREAD here; http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=367159
Merin Ryskin Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.09 14:26:00 - [26] Originally by: Dranadar Edited by: Dranadar on 09/08/2006 14:15:40 Whats the issues involved with using a BS - say a Phoon - speced with 4 Cruise Missile launchers and 2 cloaks. Decloak - fire FoF missiles and unload drones, attack with drones and recloak using the 2nd device. Any1 tried using FoF missiles and double cloaks? Not possible. Two cloaks fitted (whether online, offline, active, whatever) = neither can be activated. But it's kind of pointless anyway, FoFs won't do anything unless something is shooting at you. But if something is shooting at you, you're locked and can't cloak.
Dranadar Gallente	Posted - 2006.08.09 14:35:00 - [27] makes sense - (I was thinking you could break the lock with ECMs but u'd need to lock on in the first place to jam, by which time you would probably be toast) ....fair enough bad tatic Dranadar - Space Monkey GTC SALES DISCUSSION THREAD here; http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=367159
Still Hart Aurora Empire	Posted - 2006.08.09 16:18:00 - [28] Are TP's useful at all if you're not in a gang with T2 Torps?? I mean, I use 1 TP on my ratting Raven and it helps significantly, I guess. But if we're attacking say a HAC with a bunch of cruisers and frigs, TP will be next to useless no? _____________________
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2006.08.09 16:43:00 - [29] Edited by: James Lyrus on 09/08/2006 16:44:53 Originally by: Still Hart Are TP's useful at all if you're not in a gang with T2 Torps?? I mean, I use 1 TP on my ratting Raven and it helps significantly, I guess. But if we're attacking say a HAC with a bunch of cruisers and frigs, TP will be next to useless no? Target painters increase the signature of the target. 2 things are affected by signature: Missiles damage - explosion radius is compared with signature radius. In general, if you're using larger missles, the TP will increase raw damage. Same sized or smaller missiles, there's not a lot in it (so I wouldn't bother). Tracking. In the tracking comparision, first the relative signature of your guns is compared with the signature of the target. Then the tracking is compared to get a hit rate. Basically, +30% signature, is _effectively_ 30% more tracking. And it applies to the entire gang. But does of course, have limitations in terms of optimal range of painters, and stacking. Draw your own conclusions as to whether that's good. It's not in all situations, I'll admit, e.g. frigates vs. larger ships, it's liable to be irrelevant. But cruiser vs. cruiser, you'll hurt them more. The question becomes whether that's a better choice than one of the other midslot modules (e.g. a webber, which has a more notable affect on the tracking calculation if they're within 10km)
Mr Peanut The New Empire R i s e	Posted - 2006.08.09 17:18:00 - [30] Originally by: Captain Comatose Read the ship bonuses - nothing in there about cloaking. Yes, but there are a lot of cloaking bonuses that EVE doesn't tell us and we have to figure out on our own. I don't blame him for making the mistake of thinking that the Huginn was a recon-ish ship.

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