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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 41 post(s) |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
302
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Posted - 2014.10.01 17:31:00 -
[1] - Quote
Thead Enco wrote:Does this **** include BLOPS?
If I'm reading the changes right and I'm pretty sure I am, this completely destroys the black ops fleet doctrine. After the first BLOPS drop and the return trip you are essentially done. They need to exlclude blacks ops portals and drives from this as, whats the point of black ops at all if you can't bridge and jump?
first jump - 1 minute, plus 4.85 minutes for the distance travelled, for a total of 5.85 minutes, or 5 minutes 51 seconds. He also gains a jump fatigue value of 5.85. - This gets a BLOPS fleet TO the fight.
second jump - In this time his jump fatigue decays down to 5.27. He then makes his next jump GÇô 3.57 LY to LEK-N5. He gets a 5 minute 16 second jump cooldown timer - BLOPS fleet make it home
third jump - He waits out his timer, which also reduces his fatigue to 23.53. third jump.He gains a jump cooldown timer of 23 minutes 32 seconds, and his fatigue is multiplied by 5.19, up to 122.14.
These are all distances that are within reason for a BLOPS fleet. |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
302
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Posted - 2014.10.01 17:36:00 -
[2] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:BLOPS/T3 fleets OP now?
No reread it. Any ship using any portal is affected to. BLOPS is being nerfed into the floor w this change. |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
303
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Posted - 2014.10.01 18:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Preface: this is a big change. Yes, the way you play now is, as it relates to things touched by these changes and to varying degrees, no longer going to be viable. If that wasn't the case, these changes wouldn't be worth making in the first place.
Can CCP just give a clear yes/no on whether or not eviscerating the Black Ops fleet doctrine is intended? I've trained 3 accounts specifically to support running and doing the logistics for these fleets.
I don't want to waste my time/breath if the black ops drop is being mechanically removed from the game.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
303
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Posted - 2014.10.01 18:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mizhir wrote:Awesome changes. The most powerful ships are no longer the most mobile ones and large powerblocs have to reconsider where they place their forces as they just can't teleport to blob everything anymore.
They also took away the mobility of the black ops fleet which is distinctly NOT comprised of the largest and most powerful ships in the game.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
303
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Posted - 2014.10.01 18:26:00 -
[5] - Quote
Mizhir wrote: Yeah it sucks. But luckily they aren't changing the range for them.
Its not about range its about the fact if I drop a set of bombers on my target using a covert bridge, I can't make more than one round trip, to a target and back home to staging point before there is a significant delay. The bombers get the delay too because they use the jump portal.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
304
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Posted - 2014.10.01 20:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Is there any hope of making it so that black ops ships jumping/bridging to a covert cyno aren't affected by the cooldown? I'm just seeing the value of covert cynos drop dramatically with this change.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
305
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Posted - 2014.10.01 21:29:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jon Illat wrote: People have just become soft in the age of easy bridging. I welcome the return of freighter convoys, it'll give more conflict for all groups. NPSI BLOPs fleets will love to get wind of the convoys xD
That will be difficult for them since the mechanics change eviscerates black ops drops because every ship that takes a bridge gets a delay too.
After a single drop and return trip the fleet gets to go AFK for a bit. |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
309
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Posted - 2014.10.03 04:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
I've posted this in other threads and people have liked the idea in other threads.
I would propose the following to keep BLOPS doable but limit mass T3 fleets from being bridged across null sec.
Keep it simple ******************************************************************************************** - Make any jump/bridge to a covert beacon not accrue fatigue outside of T3s
- T3s can still be bridged but normal fatigue applies
- A Black Ops BS CAN bridge/jump to a normal Cyno but normal fatigue rules apply
This allows Black Ops to be done without it being used for mass bridging T3 fleets any more than you could with a Titan chain. A lot of players across New Eden love the doctrine and these changes really hurt it.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
309
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Posted - 2014.10.03 17:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: We wake up the day after tomorrow. That's the moral of the story. We wake up. It's not over. The world doesn't end. We just keep going w/out football. A lot of folks really care about and love football, but we can all live without it.
It's the same w/ null power blocks. At the end of the day we don't need them to play eve. If they all instantly vanish there is still a good (many would argue better) game left behind.
My small alliance's operations are effected severely by this change. We're going to have to give up moons (we do have a few moons of lesser value in NPC space) since our JF pilots are going to have a tough time reaching them. Our capitals can't jump like they used to. We're a small alliance this isn't the end of our world. We can adapt to this.
The problem is there are aspects to this change that simply aren't thought through and those are what is hurting my alliance the worst. We're a Black Ops based Alliance. We use Black Ops for both PvE (Prospects are amazing null sec gas miners) and PvP. Personally I've trained 8 characters across 4 accounts to light Covert Cynos. We have max skill black ops bridging characters. Other players have altered training paths to do black ops work and fly recons and light covert cynos themselves.
Its taken a significant amount of time for our small alliance to get to this point, and now we're essentially being told that you should do something else. We're not N3 or the CFC or even the CVA. We don't have the numbers to adapt on a dime.
If these changes stay as is for Black Ops, the fleet can only bridge out and back once with 0 fatigue before delays. I can't tell if anyone in the fleet has more than 0 fatigue to even try to manage it as the FC. This change removes our entire play style. It'd be like CODE losing HS ganking or Marmite finding out they can only wardec one alliance at a time for us. My alliance has to completely re-specialize and at this point personally I'm not certain I'm willing to.
Tears or not, with no changes what is the role of the black ops BS and black ops fleet ships (bombers/recons) after this change? Are we getting SP reimbursement for Cyno 5? Jump Portal Operation on non titan trained characters? Are black ops going to get other unique abilities to make up for the nerf, or are we getting a tank upgrade so they can stand toe to toe with T1 line battleships? This is what I mean about changes not being thought through. Theres no role for an entire class of ships now.
With changes how many bridges/jumps can I expect to make in a day? a week? I'm not against stricter planning on ops but right now its more planning my Black OP (singular) for the week/month.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
310
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Posted - 2014.10.03 18:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: I don't see any simple way to give a BLOPs fatigue immunity AND keep it from being the new shuttle to get cap pilots across the map. The cost of a BLOPs hull isn't really that much for the larger groups and fatigue immunity would far outweigh the isk. So I agree, but there are complications.
Just make anyone whos used a black ops bridge/jump unable to make a regular bridge/jump during a given 24 hour period.
This way even if you can get back to your capitals, you're not jumping anywhere with them.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
310
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Posted - 2014.10.03 18:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: Here's the problem I see though. BLOPs have the ability to become the taxi for fleets of pilots to zip across new eden and nullify the fatigue issue. There would have to be a mechanism that prevents one of the big power blocks from just moving around eve in BLOPs to their cache of boringmobiles that have been pre staged.
That's the issue with giving JFs longer range, too. BLOPS need a fatigue modifier, that's clear. Their use doesn't have the same Apex Force Unstoppable Blob issues that Supercaps and Titans (or capital blobs in general) have. Primarily because of the lack of effective logistics support. They are still jump capable combat boats though, and their increased range is definitely an advantage in this New Order. They can outpace any other teleportation based pursuer in the game under the new rules. Something like a 0.4-0.7ish modifier would probably work? That would let them drop in, gank stuff, extract without having to wait obscene amounts of time. That or jump in, gank something, roam for a bit, gank something else, hop over the pursuers, gank something else, jump over there, gank something, then extract. I love the idea of BLOPS forces being the true harrassment tools they should have been all along, until LOLCapsOnline and jump bridge networks made countering them too easy.
Agree with the concern about capial pilot taxis. The nice thing about BLOPS is we have an entirely different Cyno being used which gives us a little more flexibility... Lets add to an earlier post on BLOPS mechanics I made then...
I think this would solidify black ops as a "profession" too TBH.
Trying to keep it simple so there is no "MATH" to game. ******************************************************************************************** - Make any jump/bridge to a covert beacon not accrue fatigue outside of T3s
- T3s can still be bridged but normal fatigue applies to the T3 pilot
- A Black Ops BS CAN bridge/jump to a normal Cyno but normal fatigue rules apply
- Jumping/being bridged to a covert cyno causes pilot to be unable jump/bridge to regular cyno for 24 hours from the jump.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
312
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote: Can't exempt BLOPS from fatigue, otherwise you'd just have Sins / Redeemers being the Pony Express for stealth bomber fleets of cap pilots to speed across the universe, arriving in the cap staging system with zero fatigue. That's no bueno.
And they wouldn't be able to do anything for 24 hours with my idea. Normal caps can't jump to covert cynos. That literally makes it better for them to use interceptors, which could also get the pilot anywhere he wants in 20-30 minutes relatively risk free.
Interceptor making my idea on the 24 hour limit kinda blah as is.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
314
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Posted - 2014.10.03 20:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Drunk?
For an entire month? Possible. It must have been some sort of outlandish plan involving megathrons I had.
Subconsciously you always knew a Moros was just a really big Megathron.... |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
316
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Posted - 2014.10.03 23:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Veskrashen wrote:Toriessian wrote: - Make any jump/bridge to a covert beacon not accrue fatigue outside of T3s
- T3s can still be bridged but normal fatigue applies to the T3 pilot
- A Black Ops BS CAN bridge/jump to a normal Cyno but normal fatigue rules apply
- Jumping/being bridged to a covert cyno causes pilot to be unable jump/bridge to regular cyno for 24 hours from the jump.
Can't exempt BLOPS from fatigue, otherwise you'd just have Sins / Redeemers being the Pony Express for stealth bomber fleets of cap pilots to speed across the universe, arriving in the cap staging system with zero fatigue. That's no bueno.
Okay we've pointed out interceptors, Nullified Cloaky T3s, and good ole fashioned jump clones as reasons the pony express isn't too big of a deal. I say frigate like archons make it less of an issue as well :)
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
318
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Posted - 2014.10.04 15:50:00 -
[15] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I've come full circle on the blops several times. I guess my underlying concern is that they become lightyear shuttles capable of moving pilots across eve the same way that is prevalent now. If they get some relief to maintain that form of pvp, there has to be some mechanism to prevent the lightyear shuttle service.
Giving Blops fatigue isn't going to stop the cap pilots from moving if they want to. An interceptor can move almost anywhere in about 20 minutes. After about 2-3 bridges the interceptor is probably faster than bridging anyways, specially if its a large group.
1) Interceptors 2) Cloaky Nullified T3s 3) Jump Clones 4) Archon gangs fit to warp nearly as fast as frigs =/
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
320
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Posted - 2014.10.06 01:06:00 -
[16] - Quote
I'm praying to hear about news on black ops changes this week. This threadnaught while spectacular, has covered the issue on every possible angle sane or not. |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
322
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Posted - 2014.10.06 14:49:00 -
[17] - Quote
killerlman wrote:Only things that i must to say is *Negative* are changes to BLOPs and JFs. Thats reaaaaly doesnt fit to the jump drives/whatever changes.
BLOPS balance is still up for discussion based on the dev talk on the first page of thread. Really hoping it gets exempted in some way or exempted with blockade runner/T3 bridging restrictions or something. |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
322
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Posted - 2014.10.06 14:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:I am completely cool with JF being subjected to the same jump limitations of other caps, lest they also become a method for force projection (yes they are designed for logistics but you can still jump your pilot around in them and it wouldn't take more than a day before that becomes exploited)
In the era of cloaky nullified T3s, Interceptors, and Archons with 4AU warp speeds that can take gates, this isn't as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. Rorquals can also jump clone vat bays around. Theres lots of ways to get pilots from point A to B.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
322
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Posted - 2014.10.06 15:49:00 -
[19] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote:Toriessian wrote:SFM Hobb3s wrote:I am completely cool with JF being subjected to the same jump limitations of other caps, lest they also become a method for force projection (yes they are designed for logistics but you can still jump your pilot around in them and it wouldn't take more than a day before that becomes exploited) In the era of cloaky nullified T3s, Interceptors, and Archons with 4AU warp speeds that can take gates, this isn't as big of a deal as people are making it out to be. Rorquals can also jump clone vat bays around. Theres lots of ways to get pilots from point A to B. True, and I'm sure, at first, when people like goons find they are under siege from multiple fronts, they will try their best to keep to their current meta of 600+ people blobbing systems with caps. At first I bet they will stockpile ships all over...and have massive inty fleets to try to move their pilots from one op zone to the next. But when we are talking 40 plus jumps to traverse your blue donut...yeah, that aint gonna be working very long. The first step in overcoming Sovaholism is overcoming denial.
They could certainly send two 300 man boot fleets in two directions gate to gate though. I totally believe that to be in the realm of possibility for the CFC. In an era of EVE where you can't batphone because the reinforcements can't get there via cynos, is anyone going to be able to stop anything involving 300 Boots/slows going gate to gate?
BTW those 300 carriers could bring 4 rorqs with them and literally dump an entire subcap fleet into system with no cynos involved. A little Jump Clone planning with those vat bays is all thats needed.
They can be fit for a 4AU warp speed which is very similar to a frigate and refit on the fly too.
I'm just not willing to say gameplay benefits of making logistics hard is worth it if the reason is "capital pilot taxis". If thats the only reason to nerf JFs, I say the concern is unwarranted. If there are other reasons to nerf JFs, thats a different discussion.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
322
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Posted - 2014.10.06 16:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Toriessian wrote:BTW those 300 carriers could bring 4 rorqs with them and literally dump an entire subcap fleet into system with no cynos involved. A little Jump Clone planning with those vat bays is all thats needed. 4 rorquals...whole subcap fleet?
I may be wrong on the limit but I thought 75 clones was the number it could hold. Googling for that one and its not as easy as typing "EVE Clone vat bay limit" unfortunately =/ |
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
322
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Posted - 2014.10.06 17:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rowells wrote:Toriessian wrote:Rowells wrote: 4 rorquals...whole subcap fleet?
I may be wrong on the limit but I thought 75 clones was the number it could hold. Googling for that one and its not as easy as typing "EVE Clone vat bay limit" unfortunately =/ *I've removed that note as the limit was 10 :). Now as long as the documentation was correct we're all set. Said docs were from 2011 lol... you might get away with doing that on a titan though. idk depends
Looking at it a supercarriers hold 35 and titans hold 75 at max skill. Those are large enough numbers the CFC/N3/PL could figure it out if there really is an advantage. Having "taxi" clone vats to move jump clones where needed certainly seems feasible though since the clone vat pilot can make a few jumps without adding to the fatigue of the jump clones it holds.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
322
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Posted - 2014.10.06 20:19:00 -
[22] - Quote
Panther X wrote:I wonder if anyone has discussed being able to dock supers? If there's going to be a penalty, there should be a mitigating factor to the penalty, with skills and the ability to dock to "affect repairs" whatever. If the fatigue is going to run through downtime, then will a safe logoff be negated because of fatigue or jump timer? Is balance not de rigeur anymore?
If I can't log off safely, then in the immortal words of Russell Peters... "Someone's gonna get a hurt real baaaaad"
I think the era of "coffins in space" needs to end both for Titans and supercarriers. Let Supercarriers dock. Fix POS security so CSMA's can be safely used or make a new POS module for titans that is only accessible by a designated character.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
322
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Posted - 2014.10.06 20:47:00 -
[23] - Quote
SFM Hobb3s wrote: And Glorious tears. Being an optimist I always prefer to see it as the cup being half full. But no. Its damned full and overflowing. It's gonna be soo much fun...
I haven't added to the BLOPS tear jar today.
Grrrr... Sigh... Moan... Wail.... Black Ops update from CCP?
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
323
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Posted - 2014.10.06 23:25:00 -
[24] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote:CCP Greyscale.
We have reached maximum rage fatigue. You need to release a revised dev blog now with proposed revisions. Thats the only way to get more input
BLOPS rage rage rage blah blah Its all been said :)
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
323
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Posted - 2014.10.07 15:00:00 -
[25] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote: While we're at it, give Capitals the ability to teleport stuff to and from Jita!
In era of Jump Beacons in Jita... I'd want to join Marmite :) |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
323
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Posted - 2014.10.07 16:42:00 -
[26] - Quote
Yuri Thorpe wrote:Any updates on blops? :<
I too wish for updates on BLOPS :) |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
323
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Posted - 2014.10.07 17:03:00 -
[27] - Quote
Toriessian wrote: Looking at it a supercarriers hold 35 clones and titans hold 75 clones at max skill. Those are large enough numbers the CFC/N3/PL could figure it out if there really is an advantage. Having "taxi" clone vats to move jump clones where needed certainly seems feasible though since the clone vat pilot can make a few jumps without adding to the fatigue of the jump clones it holds.
And the part I missed....
CCP Greyscale wrote: Can supers use gates after this change? Yes.
HAHAHAHAHHA... We will be entering the era of roaming wrecking balls!
10 supers + 150ish or so carriers can hold an entire battleship fleet AND the BS fleet pilot jump clones.
I don't want to hear anybody complaining about jump freighters or BLOPS being used as capital taxis now. Who needs them. Capitals are the taxis in new EVE. :)
If the CFC and N3 get to play this game and I don't get Black Ops changes I may actually have genuine tears about it lol....
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
323
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Posted - 2014.10.08 01:57:00 -
[28] - Quote
Is it worth continuing to whine about BLOPS? |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
323
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Posted - 2014.10.08 13:30:00 -
[29] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:Toriessian wrote:Is it worth continuing to whine about BLOPS? CCP said they were going take a more active look at Black Ops in Rhea ( december ) since these changes hit them way too hard other than that no because more tears here would be comparable to a biblical flood once the containers rupture
Where was this said? Any links? |
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
323
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Posted - 2014.10.08 16:57:00 -
[30] - Quote
Dinger wrote: A permanent reduction in the impact on blackops, it is their role after all and let's be fair serious territory grabs with blackops? really?
I'll beat the BLOPS drum on this note...
Would be happy with a system that prevented me from using regular cynos for awhile if I jump/bridge to covert ones if capital taxis are really the concern here.
Fatigue reductions would help, but any pilot that does logistics wouldn't be able to participate :( That may be a necessary sacrifice although not a desirable one. Logistics (the cargo ferrying kind) alts can be trained.
Would be happy with a new BLOPS role if Cyno V is reimbursed if it ends up being useless.
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Toriessian
Helion Production Labs Independent Operators Consortium
323
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Posted - 2014.10.09 13:17:00 -
[31] - Quote
Yuri Thorpe wrote:At this point I have to wonder if CCP even checks this anymore... Btw any updates on blops
I too hope for an update on BLOPS |
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