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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 41 post(s) |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
426
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Posted - 2014.10.02 17:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
Love the jump changes, even though I just finished reskilling into capitals.
For those who think that it's going to be hard living in deep nullsec, IT SHOULD BE. There should be challenges to overcome if you want a really deep defensible position.
JF / Rorq runs are not going to hose your ability to participate in combat ops later on, and that's a good thing.
CFC will still be able to field 1000 Megas... just not everywhere at once. Same with cap fleets. Big alliances will need to choose where to defend when, and that choice is going to shape nullsec for the next several months.
I wasn't terribly persuaded by the Newbie Death Clone argument (get off your lazy butts and escort them in, you pansies), but the solution seems to be a good one. Severe limits outside of that 30 day window seem reasonable as well, if the goal is to prevent deathcloning as a way to end-run around the jump changes.
In all, damn fine job CCP. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
429
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Posted - 2014.10.02 19:04:00 -
[2] - Quote
Demonfist wrote:Elsa Hayes wrote:Now IF CCP would also introduce a new ship like a heavy bomber/piloted fighter bomber that works pretty much like an upscaled fighterbomber already in game, i.e. very good vs supers, good vs caps, bad vs anything else to discourage the idea of nano, warp speed optimized carrier roams and camps to act as some sort of counter then these changes would actually be awesome! ^ Good idea. Stealth Bomber's big brother. They even already have models for them they could scale up, tweak a bit and use for the ships. I would only add that they should be decent but not efficient against battleships too, to add to versatility and keep you from having to reship to do anything if the other side shows up in subcaps.
Make it Cruiser / BC sized, and give it a role bonus to fitting Citadel Torpedo Launchers. Voila.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
430
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Posted - 2014.10.02 19:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Suzuka A1 wrote: Senerios: 1) Oh ok, so just unsub the super/titan pilot for a month. Got it.
2) We are at war and I reach my 1 month timer. I can't use my cap and I can't use a titan bridge, nor a black ops bridge...I guess I'll go to high sec and run incursions?
You could, yanno, actually fly your ship of choice through gates. I know that's for teh poorz, but it is an option. Even for your supercap or titan pilot.
Then again, if you're too damn lazy to actually fly your ships in space, and too careless to watch your fatigue, then perhaps you're bad enough that you don't really deserve your space...? We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
430
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Posted - 2014.10.02 19:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
Agnahr wrote:A couple of people in my alliance raised a good point regarding this change to capitals to make Eve more "localized". The regions we live in are nothing but localized. Isotopes of certain type come from specific regions. Valuable moons are not evenly spread out. So the logistic to keep cap fleets and towers fuelled up and supply moon goo will increase dramatically. Has any thought been put into this aspect? Restricting cap movements before rebalancing resources is a double whammy and the wrong way round. Your ability to supply everything you need from your chosen home will be impacted, yes. Which means you need to source locally everything you can, so your somewhat limited logistics can handle importing the things you can't source locally. It also means that there may be more demand elsewhere for the stuff you can source locally, which could be used to trade for stuff you need.
You could, for example, ensure that your towers and majority of your caps run on locally sourced isotopes, for example. You could ensure that you import the non-racial components you need for local T2 production. You could run more reaction farms. All kinds of ways to generate industrial and economic activity, just by making "get it all from Jita' less convenient.
Yanno, encouraging folks to use the space they live in, and encouraging trade across regions. Might even be a buff to the secondary / regional trade hubs like Amarr and Dodixie. And null/high logistics routes might become valuable trade hubs in and of themselves. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
430
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:05:00 -
[5] - Quote
Falkor1984 wrote:Well, dwindling numbers are saying CCP is doing a bad job. If I look at Eve-offline I think I see we just hit a 6 year low in active chars. Pissing off half of your customers is a bad idea in any situation, let alone in this situation. Change will always **** off some people, but changes like these with grotesque cooldown timers and long travel times do not add anything to the game but boredome. I expect devs to be able to create something more fun than that. If they can't, customers will leave, because face it, if a game needs 'features' like this there is something really wrong in that game. And people generally do not want to pay for bad games.
So, no it is not about self interest, it's about being stunned how stupid companies/devs can be. Or you could take the opposite view, in that current low numbers are because nullbears aren't logging in. They're not logging in because there's nothing to do. There's nothing to do because blue donut. There's blue donut because force projection. There's force projection because there are no practical limits to capital movement.
Ergo, impose practical limits on capital movement over long distances.
Ergo, power projection nerfed.
Ergo, blue donut impacted.
Ergo, stuff happens.
Ergo, reason to log in.
Ergo, concurrent subscribers increases. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
431
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:08:00 -
[6] - Quote
For folks wanting longer range JFs / Rorqs to make logistics easier:
Keeping them the same range as all other capitals means you introduce geography back into EVE, which hasn't been around for a long long time. It means that you can interdict supply lines used by your opponents. It means you can actually lay siege to the castle.
These are all good things.
If you want to get around this, use blockade runners and BLOPS. But, of course, this would mean you would need to be selective about what you bring in and out of null, which means it's no longer easy mode. To that I say: HTFU. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
433
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:42:00 -
[7] - Quote
Falkor1984 wrote:[IF this is the case, which I don't expect, but let's for arguments sake say it is, CCP should still be able to solve this problem in another way. Adding boredom does nothing good for a game.
Also, when I think further on this matter: this change kind of robs the players of an endgame. I can still remember getting my first bs, capital and supercapital. With this change caps and supercaps become kind of obsolete. What do new players have to look forward too then? Ships that are worthless/no fun to fly? 1. Just because you don't like the solution, doesn't mean it's not a solution to the problem they're looking to solve. None of the changes as written introduce boredom IMO. If you choose to sit on your hands waiting all the time rather than using the mechanics available - you know, gates - then that's your own fault, not CCP's.
2. This is a sandbox. There is no predefined endgame.
3. If you want to fly bigger and bigger ships with shinier and shinier mods (because PURPLE!) then go right ahead. If that's how you define your endgame, there's noone stopping you from doing it. If, on the other hand, you feel that entitles you to mapwide instant gratification, well... that I have an issue with.
4. Supers and Titans will still have a role. Invulnerable hotdropo'clock mobiles won't be it - but they will have a role. Inventive players (which may or may not include you) can probably find all kinds of ways to use them effectively. Like, say, notice they have Clone Vats and SMAs. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
436
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Posted - 2014.10.02 20:47:00 -
[8] - Quote
Rarnak Ki wrote:Sorry but an alliance who hauls 10+million m3 of stuff to null sec every week isn't going to do it in blockade runners. Half the stuff won't even fit in one. Even if the materials for the t2 ships/mods/ammo were brought instead of the actual items, it would still be the same.
Then think about how this affects small corps running pos based industry in quiet areas of low sec that are not even going to have the man power any more to make the jf jumps required to manage the business. Maximum fatigue on a JF jump is 1.5. This takes 15 minutes to clear, max. You can still haul 10+million m3 of stuff between null and high every month - it just takes longer to do.
You could decrease the amount of material moved by producing more stuff locally and importing less.
And yes, I realize some stuff can't be produced locally - or at least not easily. This is where you should probably focus your slower jump-based logistical lift capacity.
Besides, I imagine that a BNI freighter convoy from low to null escorted by 1000 Moas / Eagles would be a helluva sight to see. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
441
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
Eigenvalue wrote:Please. The gate feature is absurd. No one is going to move capitals through gates as part of a strategy. Bet you a PLEX that we see it happen before the end of the year.
If it's the best way to move for a given situation, or if it gains them a tactical advantage, it'll happen. Guaranteed.
The gleeful cackling of folks over the idea of NanoNidhoggur and NanoMoros roams should be a nice, big, blue-by-four on that score.
Quote:Quote: 4. Supers and Titans will still have a role. Invulnerable hotdropo'clock mobiles won't be it - but they will have a role. Inventive players (which may or may not include you) can probably find all kinds of ways to use them effectively. Like, say, notice they have Clone Vats and SMAs.
Really? wouldn't it be just you know 10 times cheaper to just use a rorqual - which can dock in stations by the way and get the .1 fatigue modifier? Sure you could do that. Of course, having Rorquals to support your Suddenly Subcap Fleet is probably less optimal than having ECM immune, high DPS Supers and Titans on field, especially when the Titans can then bridge the subcap fleet out when they've accomplished what they were there to do.
But hey, it's fine by me if you want to judge these changes by your limited imagination from your position of supreme privelege. I'll just be sitting back here wondering if this is too big of a stealth buff to lowsec. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
441
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
Arcturus Helio wrote:CCP Greyscale, is the idea of putting fatigue on a ship hull and not being able to repackage the ship until fatigue is cleared even begin considered? This seems like a decent idea to me but I was wondering if CCP gave it any merit. Fatigue has to be on the pilots for the restrictions to matter. Otherwise you just end up doing a rapid relay of hulls down to wherever you want to be. Which, for large and well financed alliances / coalitions, essentially means no restriction at all.
Isk can not be used as a balancing measure for things like that. Supercaps Online is proof enough of that already. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
441
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:18:00 -
[11] - Quote
Vhaine Vhindiscar wrote:Varesk wrote:Can you make it so Supers can dock in stations now? It would be nice to be able to use that character for other things. This, it's bad enough you essentially killed these guys investments. Such is Eve. It worse that you've destroyed the reason for their ship class, yet still doom them to their space coffins. At least let them dock up and grab a rifter so they can move 8-9 systems with a loosing a few hours of their life. Why would they need a Rifter to do that? They can just fly their shiny Super / Titan through the gate. It's like a Rifter, just, yanno, slower and bigger. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
444
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:36:00 -
[12] - Quote
Iam Widdershins wrote: An entire year's cooldown on something that you might definitely need more often than that in a big war. Not cool IMO.
There's these things called Interceptors. I hear that you can get from one end of the universe to the other in under an hour using them. In an age where it takes an hour for your jump fatigue to wear off from a single max range jump, they'd probably be pretty handy.
Of course, that would mean taking some level of risk and not being able to respond instantly to events on the other side of New Eden at a moment's notice.
Which might, of course, make it difficult to defend large sprawling empires.
My goodness - that can't be what CCP is going for with these changes, could it?!?!?!?!
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
444
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Lord TGR wrote:Ackbarre wrote:I predict that after all the capital pilots unsub. That CCP finishes WiS and allow players to strip and have sex to generate revenue. Jade Constantwhine will finally have his empire back. I'd rejoin Jericho Fraction for that.
At least as long as we could use Gewn Tears for lube during our victory orgies. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
444
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:41:00 -
[14] - Quote
Isengrimus wrote:Tempest Borne wrote:Is this a troll?
There is some convoluted sense to cooldown. 5 ly nerf on jumps? Talk about making sure people congregate on the edges of high sec.... A valid point. Without the ability to bypass the "borderlands", the remote areas of nullsec will become even more stagnat - as even if a small group conquers them thanks to the proposed changes to the capital blob, they won't be able to live there due to lack of supplies and non-existing trade routes. (Yes, I am repeating myself). Dear Greyscale, what's your flexibility when it comes to extending JF and Rorqual (and possibly another non-combat ship that could carry fitted subcaps) jump range? 1. Use wormholes.
2. Use BLOPS, which have a longer range.
3. Go around the gatecamps through a pipe that's not currently camped as heavily. In your Nano Nidhoggur gang. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
444
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Posted - 2014.10.02 22:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Grookshank wrote:We want you to think about exactly which system you live in.
How does forcing players to stack up in a select few systems fit to the idea of occupancy based sov mechanics you aim for? [/quote] Well... a small bit of thinking gives me...
1. If you're living and playing and working and killing in a small space, that's kinda defacto occupancy based sov.
2. You don't have to stack up in one system.
3. Spreading out has costs.
4. Balancing defensibility with accessibility and mobility and sustainability is interesting gameplay.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
444
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:12:00 -
[16] - Quote
bp920091 wrote:The problem isnt missions, the problem is that R8/32 moons are needed for reactions, and they are NOT universal, and very very regional (specifically R8, but R32 moons arent much better), and the POSs needed to react the materials are NOT plug and play. Caldari and Gallente POSs are about the only ones that can react to any reasonable degree. Minmatar and Amarr POSs do not have the CPU needed.
CCP, if you want to do this, you NEED to make ice and all moon minerals universal. To do otherwise will annihilate the T2 market. Hi. Just thought I'd point out that there are moons in 0.1-0.4 space, that you can buy moongoo off the market, and that reaction towers can be anchored anywhere - including highsec.
In short, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from sourcing the stuff you need to build and maintain the stuff you want. And sourcing raw materials to build your stuff will take far less jump-capable logistics capacity than moving finished goods around. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
444
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Innominate wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote: That's a question I'd suggest you ask your leaders, not us.
Are you seriously blaming the the players for playing the game as it is designed? Given that the players decide what goals to pursue and how, yes. I think it's entirely appropriate to do so. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
445
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
Querns wrote:Veskrashen wrote: reaction towers can be anchored anywhere - including highsec.
Um, no. Both miners and reactors are restricted to 0.4 or below. Ah - didn't realize that about reactors. Been a while since I've run a POS.
Oh well - guess there's absolutely nowhere outside of Sov Null to source moongoo or do reactions. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
445
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:38:00 -
[19] - Quote
Polo Marco wrote: If you really want to stop the megacorps you have to make them unprofitable. Many of these 'nullbears' pay billions per month. You're not going to stop that by roaming through twice a week shooting up the place. the only content you provide by doing this is amusement from the locals and a break in boredom for the on call response fleets who are so bored they will hot drop a fly on the windowpane just for something to do.
I disagree. Isk is not a valid mechanism for balancing things, not for large scale issues. We've seen time and time again that the top groups will find a way to work around such limitations, in ways and with a speed CCP cannot predict.
Time and effort are the only things that work as limiting factors in a game like this.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
445
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:40:00 -
[20] - Quote
Yuri Thorpe wrote:Aerich e'Kieron wrote:Jeyz Vega wrote:There is not a single pro-argument for this crap. It helps NO ONE, and screws all.
Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone in particular. The time are changing, roll with it. How about the traders that go to null to sell things? How about the people who work at black frog and pushX? What about the indy guys? Tell me more about it hurts no one... 1. They make more isk, since there will be fewer willing to make the effort. 2. They make more isk, since their jump timers have value they can charge for. 3. They make more isk, since they can pass on their increased costs to their customers at a reasonable markup.
Seems like good things to me... We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
445
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:43:00 -
[21] - Quote
Demetri Slavic wrote:As a leader in a Merc alliance, Im interested if the nerf to the ability to move large quantities of Rigged Ships is intended.
Combat wise, I love these changes. But trying to figure out how long it will take to move 30million m3 of rigged ships 30LY with 10 carriers makes me cry. 5 hours each way, for as long as you want to do it really. With 30 carriers, you can do it in 5 hours max, or 3.75 if you use the trick pointed out earlier in the thread of waiting out your fatigue for the first 3 jumps. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
445
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Yuri Thorpe wrote:Veskrashen wrote:Yuri Thorpe wrote:Aerich e'Kieron wrote:Jeyz Vega wrote:There is not a single pro-argument for this crap. It helps NO ONE, and screws all.
Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone in particular. The time are changing, roll with it. How about the traders that go to null to sell things? How about the people who work at black frog and pushX? What about the indy guys? Tell me more about it hurts no one... 1. They make more isk, since there will be fewer willing to make the effort. 2. They make more isk, since their jump timers have value they can charge for. 3. They make more isk, since they can pass on their increased costs to their customers at a reasonable markup. Seems like good things to me... That hurts someone that has to pay for that, it always hurts someone But not everyone, which was the point. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
447
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:46:00 -
[23] - Quote
Sienna Toth wrote:Grayscales fundamental premise is flawed.
In general the speed of transport with a jumpship is not a factor in jumpship decisions. I may miss a few but fundamentally there are 2 reasons to make a jump.
1) Safety - Jumpships bypass the gatecamps. 2) Tactical surprise - bring overwhelming firepower to bare in a short amount of time.
Speed of movement is simply not a consideration. You're smoking something good if you think that travel time isn't a consideration.
The ability of APEX FORCE to rapidly move across the map is a major contributing factor to the stagnation of nullsec.
Moreover, the overwhelming majority of complaints about the change is that it hardcaps travel time over long distances.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
447
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:47:00 -
[24] - Quote
Yuri Thorpe wrote:"Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone in particular." Fixed that for you. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
447
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Yuri Thorpe wrote:Veskrashen wrote:Yuri Thorpe wrote:"Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone in particular." Fixed that for you. "Actually, it helps everyone and doesn't screw anyone"There we go In which case you're wrong, but hey - let's not let little things like staying true to the original statements we're discussing get in the way of supporting our own viewpoints, shall we?
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
449
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:56:00 -
[26] - Quote
Viceversa wrote:Is CCP going to make deep null sec as the wasted land? That's really up to you, the players who currently live out there.
If you can't hack it living out there, then move. Someone willing to do the work will be happy to take the space off your hands. They'll probably be smarter, tougher, more determined, and more willing to put in the work needed to live in space that's not as convenient.
In short, they'll probably deserve it a helluva lot more than you do. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
449
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Posted - 2014.10.02 23:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
Talvorian Dex wrote: The ability of an APEX force to move, yes. But this nerf obliterates the ability of ANY force to move more than one subcap at a time.
Hi. There's these things called stargates. Any ship of any size can use them now, in low and null security space.
You should look into the implications of that.
P.S. Hint - this means securing your lines of communication and not relying on mass teleportation for fleet mobility.
P.P.S. Pro Tip - HTFU.
Edit: a word. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
453
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Talvorian Dex wrote:Your statement is true only if demand is inelastic, but it's not. No one is forcing people to play Eve. No one is forcing players to use certain ships or fly in certain areas. When you make logistics and resupplying too difficult, you don't see increased costs, you see demand go away as people screw off and do something else. So if folks stop playing, that only includes buyers of a service and never the sellers of a service. It couldn't possibly be that both supply and demand are elastic, that both the logistics users and providers have equal ability to react negatively to the changes, and the new equilibrium price - regardless of the new total volume moved per day - could conceivably be higher than it is today.
Got it. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
453
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Arsine Mayhem wrote:Talvorian Dex wrote:I'm going to make one post, with the hope that the devs are still reading this thread. I'm gonna say this once.
Nerfing capitals into the ground is one thing (and that's what you're doing). I'm fine with that. But this is draconian.
More importantly, you're also obliterating so much more that relies on jump bridges, jump engines, and high-volume movement.
What happened to CCP Seagull saying, "We want to support content enablers!" (those who handle logistics, fuel, etc. that allow others to enjoy their gameplay)? With these changes, you've basically put your arm around them, cuddled them gently, then threw them to the ground and curbstomped them until they had a mouthful of broken teeth and bloody gums.
Here is your content enabler. Form a fleet and escort a freighter. Been there, done that, several times. Was stressful as hell and a lot of fun. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
453
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:10:00 -
[30] - Quote
Adwokat Diabla wrote:The idea that I cannot jump for a month at a time WILL make me unsub. I do not think this is an unrealistic response from any cap pilot. Limit this to a day or two at most, otherwise I see no point in continuing to subscribe a super pilot if I literally cannot play the game absent gates. (Which is NOT acceptable for a super) I guarantee you that you will lose enough subscriptions from super/titan pilots from this change that it will ultimately hurt the game much more then it will benefit it. You won't be able to jump for a month because you failed to plan ahead and consider the impact of making a jump at that time after having built up so much fatigue. Getting to that point would have meant that you would have had to wait out a 3 day jump timer as it is.
If you're that careless and boneheaded, we're probably better off without you around to be frank.
Oh - and if the Failheap Challenge thread is any indication, unsubbed bittervets are coming back by the thousands solely to screw with the current lords of nullsec. I think they'll nicely balance out the income CCP will lose from your subscription.
Ta. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
453
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
Talvorian Dex wrote:Have you ever done a logistics run? Back and forth in a jump freighter can be 12 jumps. That's no longer possible. I don't care a bit about combat capitals jumping - I actually like that. It's the non-combat capital jumps that cause this thing to be ill-thought out and the consequence of a drunken brainstorming session, not a measured mechanic change. Yes. I have. Of course back in my day I did it using only 2 accounts and a carrier, so had to make a lot more runs for the same volume. When I wasn't escorting freighters out to the dronelands using subcaps and no titan, that is.
Of course, 12 jumps at maximum speed - jumping as soon as your jump cooldown is done - is less than two hours, leaving you with a little under 7 hours of jump fatigue accumulated and about 41 minutes for your 13th jump timer. Or you could play it really smart and just take 1 jump every 15 minutes, allowing your fatigue to completely dissipate after every jump, and make it there in 3 hours with no restrictions on starting back the other way.
Which obviously is the end of the world and 3 hour round trips in a JF is going to be the end of EVE.
Pansy entitled lazy effing nullbears, I swear. Get off my lawn already. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
454
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:27:00 -
[32] - Quote
Talvorian Dex wrote:Let me ask you something. If you drive 20 miles a day to work, and suddenly you can only drive to work 1 day a week, and have to ride a scooter the rest of the days (Because of your jump fatigue), are you going to work 20 miles away? No, you're going to get a new job right next door. Depends a lot on the job, how much it pays, and how satisfying I find the work to be. Of course, I already live in a high traffic commuting area and have to deal with long commutes as it is - so I suppose I'm just a bigger harder man than others. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
Adwokat Diabla wrote: Yeah so to fuel the PL renter program and just keep it MAINTAINED we have to do freighter ops where we get 10+ freighters to help maintain our renters. This is not to establish it. Saying "form an escort yo" is just not realistic when forming nullsec infrastructure requires such a massive m3 of hauling for people who want to pvp and not spend their free time escorting haulers.
You mean maintaining a large renter program on the back end of nowhere might be difficult and impose costs / constraints on the landlords?
Wow.
Some folks might even think that this could cause some current landlords to assess the work just isn't worth the reward, or that continuing as-is would court burnout far too quickly.
I wonder if that might incentivize another group to take up the reigns...? Or maybe cause current renters to decide that absentee landlords aren't worth having...? Or maybe PL could decide that causing enough havoc in PBLRD space would either cause the CFC renter agreements to collapse or force a deployment that could make CFC homelands vulnerable...?
Man. I'm glad that there's no potential for the timesinks of maintaining large sprawling empires to cause any changes in nullbear behavior.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:37:00 -
[34] - Quote
Degalo wrote:Vinyl Scrattch wrote: freighter escorts create content
Sure. For the ganker, and only for the ganker. Unless losing a JF to a supercarrier camp on the regional gate you MUST take is "content". You could, yanno, use those supers and titans that are gathering dust to clear that super camp that's sitting there waiting for those juicy freighters to come through.
One might even think that using fully insured freighters as bait convoys to lure out overconfident super / titan pilots might become a thing. Particularly in high traffic pipes.
But hey. Who am I to use my imagination?
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
Polo Marco wrote:Veskrashen wrote: I disagree. Isk is not a valid mechanism for balancing things, not for large scale issues. We've seen time and time again that the top groups will find a way to work around such limitations, in ways and with a speed CCP cannot predict.
Time and effort are the only things that work as limiting factors in a game like this.
Not if you make enough ISK. Then you pay other players enough to put in the time and effort for you. Removing the jump gate restrictions for caps and shortening the logistic capabilities enough that you must use the jump gates to empire will just empower the megacorps that much more. There's gonna be another BoB. And when it's over all the losing Megacorps will blame Greyscale for ruining their game. :D Everyone will be whining. You will shake your head. And I'll say "I told you so" So what you're saying is that since some folks can make enough isk to pay others to do stuff for them to overcome a time sink, isk is a valid balancing mechanic, because they can't make enough to overcome a pure isk sink? Huh?
Oh, and given how Gewns are talking about how they'll be just fine holed up behind the massive walls of Fortress Deklein where no poors and pubbies could possibly hurt them, they might be good candidates for the next BoB. Of course, the rest of null will have ways to camp them into their little castle and starve them to death, so that should be fun too. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:43:00 -
[36] - Quote
Talvorian Dex wrote:Jump freighters and some form of fitted subcap carrier HAVE to be excluded, or this isn't going to end well. You don't pinch off a diver's oxygen, then be upset when he doesn't come back with any nice underwater pictures. No, they don't. You already have the tools to get around these issues. Your failure to adapt will not be our problem, and other folks will have absolutely no problem in managing to overcome the challenges you couldn't handle.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:45:00 -
[37] - Quote
Talvorian Dex wrote:Veskrashen wrote: Pansy entitled lazy effing nullbears, I swear. Get off my lawn already.
Not sure how you get "nullbears" out of my concern about acquiring a steady supply of PvP ships... Your (CFC) desire for nice high impenetrable walls, easy logistics, and the ability to helicopterdick folks on the other side of the map for lulz.
Then again, RZR actually deployed to lowsec and is undocking for fights, so some of you don't suck after all. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:48:00 -
[38] - Quote
Adwokat Diabla wrote:You are missing the point entirely. People who try to take the space from us will simply be hellcamped right out of nullsec. (Which is what we did last time) We will not be interested in actually developing the space, which ultimately will lead to nullsec becoming alot more empty, with only massive coalitions able to live in null, because the small guys will just get crushed right back to lowsec. How is this beneficial to the game? When you dramatically increase the barriers to entry all you do is make coalitions become bigger and less people willing to come into null. And this is different from the current state of nullsec play how, exactly...?
Oh, and while you're hellcamping one crew in here, that means your supers / titans / caps aren't in a position to rapidly deploy over there to hellcamp that other crew in. Which, you know, is kinda the point of these changes - to force you to pick your fights.
You won't be able to be everywhere you want to be anymore. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:55:00 -
[39] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote: Outer Passage is 28 mids from Jita with the range nerf, and I need to make 3 runs per week. Be a sport and bring daddy an estimate of THAT, would you?
Sure. You hit a 5.5 hour jump timer at jump number 20 after 15 hours of travel, which would be a good time to take a break and get a nap. Once you wake up you can finish the run in less than an hour.
If you're smarter, you can do 14 jumps in 3.5 hours and take a 2 hour break, come back and finish the run. But that would require smarts.
Of course, you could probably do it in a lot fewer mids if you're willing to take a few gates. Paala - LXQ2-T makes a helluva difference in the total number of jumps needed. But of course you'd probably want someone to scout for you and clear the bubbles. But hey - shouldn't your PL overlords be willing to keep the chokepoints clear for you? After all you are paying them billions per month in rent...
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 00:57:00 -
[40] - Quote
Adwokat Diabla wrote:Mara Tessidar wrote:Hey CCP Greyscale this is a game and not being able to use a core mechanic for travel for a month is so utterly retarded I can't believe you seriously consider it a good thing
hope that helps Apparently this needs to be re-iterated. Don't be stupid about using teleportation mechanics, and you never have to worry about it. Given you have to hit a 3 day jump timer before you get to that point, and several multi-hour timers before then, you should have plenty of time to wisen up.
Otherwise, people might remind you that being dumb in EVE has penalties, and this is probably one of them. Don't be dumb. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:00:00 -
[41] - Quote
Garandras wrote:Nazri al Mahdi wrote: Outer Passage is 28 mids from Jita with the range nerf, and I need to make 3 runs per week. Be a sport and bring daddy an estimate of THAT, would you?
Well if you wait the timer every jump.. you are looking at about 2.8hrs Closer to 7 actually, it's 15 minutes of fatigue per 5 LY jump. But yeah, could be done fairly fast. Assuming he's uber cautious about his routing and absolutely refuses to use stargates, of course, but being that risk averse OUGHT to have penalties of some kind.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:04:00 -
[42] - Quote
Adwokat Diabla wrote:It isn't different at all from current nullsec play. Also, almost nobody has multiple deployments to attack on multiple angles, and even when they do, it doesn't really matter anyways. So long as you can hellcamp the most important alliance in a coalition into a station until they no longer want to play, then it's very easy mop-up work to deal with any of the other smaller "crews". The sad truth is that same tactics that we (PL) have been using for years will probably not change much, if at all, because of these changes. It will just make it even harder for small groups to come into 0.0.
EDIT: If you're interested, this is what we did with SOLAR. We hellcamped them in, and drove them out of the Eastern 1/2 of the map and after we dealt with them, then it was very easy to mopup other groups like RA or -A- . Oh I get that it's viable tactic, assuming you only have one major threat to deal with. Given that sov structure HPs are getting adjusted at the same time as these jump changes - meaning subcaps become viable threats in large enough numbers - I would anticipate seeing an alliance or coalition facing multiple threats. You can definitely deal with one, but that leaves others to run around, and even if they're not hitting your alliance's space they could be causing hell in your coalition mate's space or your rental empire. With the jump fatigue mechanic, they'll have a reasonable expectation of not getting hot dropped if you maintain the hellcamp, and folks can do some significant damage in a week unopposed if they put their mind to it.
But hey. It's not like smart folks aren't analyzing these changes and seeing what parts of their empire they need to shore up, what parts they can sacrifice, and what new areas they need to grab to ensure their sustainability.
I'm sure that things are going to get shaken up plenty in the next 6 months or so. If not, I owe you a PLEX.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:13:00 -
[43] - Quote
Polo Marco wrote:Nothing will matter but the choke points. Whoever controls them will be able to control the game. The megas are well represented in the CSM. They all seem to be on board with this plan.
The megas are screaming bloody murder, in case you haven't noticed.
Also, there's only so many chokepoints you can control. So long as you can get past the entrance system - from any angle - you have free reign.
For example, staging out of the NPC station in J-CJIV in Pure Blind lets you hit 11 systems in Deklein. Staging out of DO6 (no station, but a viable midpoint) gives you reach for another 5. And that's not counting taking one of the 5 regional gates into Dekelein - which you can fit caps through, by the way - which again gives you free reign of the region. Oh, and that's only considering capitals, not the use of nullified T3s and the like, or the use of cloaky nullified T3s via BLOPS with BR support, or the use of wormholes.
In fact, wormholes become the near perfect way to get folks in for an assault, since there's no way for the defender to prevent them from giving access to their space nor any way to predict when / where they'll pop up.
I think folks are seriously fooling themselves if they think they can simply hellcamp a few systems and be good.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:15:00 -
[44] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:Why would I take a stargate in a 7 billion ISK ship? I hope you're not suggesting I deploy the corp to the region gate some 30-40 jumps out six times a week for my three loads. You take it through the gate because it saves you multiple mids and therefore time. You bring your mates along because if they don't you don't move their stuff for them. At least they're not doing 40 jumps each way to escort a freighter through all those gates, like folks used to do.
But hey - we were tougher and more determined back then, I guess. Get off my lawn. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:18:00 -
[45] - Quote
Racso Lluecks wrote: ^^^ Winner....
The force projection effects of this change are good. The logistical effects, are not.
So the idea is, that instead of hotdropping supers.... Supers are going to escort freighters? That's your &*#$(%ing fix?
If you insist on remaining pure PvPers that never mine, never manufacture anything, and depend on Empire for all your needs - then yeah, suck it up buttercup.
Or you could adapt, start up your local industry, plan your routes better, and rely on compressed goods and raw materials instead of finished hulls. But that would require effort and change, which I know some nullbear failliances are unable to muster.
Lazy effing nullbears. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:21:00 -
[46] - Quote
Adwokat Diabla wrote:It's one thing to make a mistake, like warping back to a tractor unit to loot a carrier wreck and then losing your super because of it. That's an example of making a dumb mistake.
Having gameplay mechanics designed into the game to prevent you from actually playing the game on the other hand just does not make sense. Not taking your jump fatigue into account when planning your next move is equally stupid, IMO, and equally as big of a mistake.
The fact that having a month long jump timer does not prevent you from playing the game, nor prevent you from moving around in space, means it's not a game ending mistake.
They're called stargates. Look into them. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:25:00 -
[47] - Quote
Degalo wrote:"Stop playing the game the way you want. Start playing it how I say."
That's what you're telling people to do. I'm saying that owning your own empire out in the lawless wildlands of space, particularly those lawless wilds of space far from empire, SHOULD NOT BE A CAKEWALK.
If you don't want to go through the effort involved in living out there, don't. Other people will, no worries.
If you don't want to adapt to the changes coming down the pipe, fine. Don't. Other people will, no worries.
What burns me is when folks scream bloody murder when it's not easy anymore. Like they're entitled to simple, easy logistics out in the hinterlands.
Get over yourself already. HTFU, lazy ass nullbears.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:29:00 -
[48] - Quote
DGDragon wrote:If JF jump range is nerfed, I can't logi because there are over 10LY distance between The Kalevala Expanse - Geminate.
Other courses are filled with reds and neuts.
Yes there are Jumpgate. But even now there are many neuts, so after patch, there should gate camping 24/7. Get scouts to move you through chokepoints. Get PL to secure the routes and clear camps.
There is nothing forcing you to make logistics runs solo. You have corpmates, get them to lend a hand.
Alternatively, if you're shipping manufactured goods to empire for sale, ship raw materials instead which should take up less space.
Also - if renters don't want to deal with the logistics of living in deep null, then it seems likely that landlords won't be able to charge as much for the space, which means income declines, which makes holding the space less rewarding for the efforts, which means at some point it becomes not worth it, which means some other folks can move in and take it over, which means the map changes, which means the changes worked as intended. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:32:00 -
[49] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:See, when you say things like "compressed goods", you stop sounding smart, and the reason you disagree with us becomes clear: you have no idea what you are talking about. You can move 620 million units of tritanium in compressed veldspar in a single JF load, assuming 88% refine and 320,000m3 capacity on the JF.
How much stuff do you need to build that requires that much raw material? We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:33:00 -
[50] - Quote
Lam Sixteus wrote:Please consider maintaining the mobility of fleets. Fleets can move about just fine, even after these changes. You can use stargates to cross the entirety of New Eden and never gain a single second of Jump Fatigue, even in your supers and titans.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:39:00 -
[51] - Quote
Polo Marco wrote:Like most of the people in this thread, you are missing the point. It's not about the fleets. It's about the ISK. Having the best military didn't do the Germans any good in WW II, or Napoleon in the wars that bear his name. 95% of the Japanese merchant marine was at the bottom of the Pacific by June of 1944.
These wars were all lost due to the other side's preponderance of wealth and resources.
Players who rely upon heavily interdicted chokepoint systems and wormholes for trade will be easily dominated by those who do not.
Examine your premises. Isk is not a limiting factor in EVE. No war in EVE between determined opponents has been lost because of isk.
Wars are lost due to failure of will and the collapse of the logistical structure fueling the war. That structure is limited by time and the actual pilots willing to do that work at that level.
Those folks will have a higher burden now.
No amount of isk will buy you the logistical support you want if your pilots won't log in.
You, sir, have zero idea what you're talking about. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:44:00 -
[52] - Quote
Rarnak Ki wrote:It's not that it is going to be harder now, it is that it is going to take longer and be far less fun. It is that people don't want to spend all of their game time waiting on timers before they can move. It is that in many areas, it is going to be impossible. There will be more ganks and less good fights because people aren't going to have the mobility to get to the fight. There will be less people in null because the overall trouble of getting supplies there is increasing as exponentially as the jump fatigue timers. This means the opportunity cost of playing in null increases tremendously for what will be less content. Higher opportunity cost means lower quantity (of Null sec content) demanded.
Seriously I know of a dozen or so people already that are going to just stop producing goods, stop helping their alliances logistics, sell their capitals, and just hang out in cruisers in low sec systems skirmishing rather than actually doing anything significant in this game any more. Essentially this takes what veterans have worked so hard to attain and nerfs it straight into the ground. Why should we care anymore? If folks aren't willing to take on the additional burden, fine. If nullsec corps and alliances move to lowsec because nullsec logistics isn't "fun" anymore, fine. That means there's room for new blood in nullsec - which is kinda the point of these changes.
In addition, since travel to the back end of nowhere is so much harder and takes so much longer, you're more likely to look for fights nearby. Kinda like lowsec. Which means you can probably stay where you live, have similar fights close by, and still get to play with all your shiny toys and have your flag on the map.
Also - staying the F out of nullsec when I came back to EVE was the best decision I ever made. Lowsec is so much better in just about every conceivable way if you don't aspire to being a supercap pilot.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:51:00 -
[53] - Quote
Racso Lluecks wrote: Lols
Games are supposed to be fun. Perhaps you've forgotten this?
My fun is pvp, large scale production, or wtf ever I think it is.
Your fun is faction warfare... Good for you... I ain't gonna tell you how to waste your life.
My fun is building capitals. I can still build them with ease, as I do have the infrastructure already. What I won't be able to do, is move them to market, or even sell them after this.
Imagine if they moved faction warfare to low/nullsec... Now you actually have to risk yourself to do what you want. How much fun is this? If you've gotta make 36 jumps to get to your mission? Then 36 back? What if you were doing it in a capital ship? minimum 2 hours.. With billions at risk for those hours?
Please tell me more about how I should play.
Build something else?
Build them closer to your customers?
Make your customers come pick them up instead of delivering them, and let them deal with the risk?
Take your time moving them - jump, safe log off, wait out your timer, log back in, jump again?
And yeah - if FW moved to null I'd do something else. The fact that FW is in lowsec and that I didn't have to deal with bloc BS in nullsec is part of why I chose it.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 01:56:00 -
[54] - Quote
Findell Ronuken wrote:Veskrashen wrote:You can move 620 million units of tritanium in compressed veldspar in a single JF load, assuming 88% refine and 320,000m3 capacity on the JF.
How much stuff do you need to build that requires that much raw material? Supercaptials. Almost all those minerals are imported from empire along with all the moon minerals that 0.0 export to empire. T2 prices will spike hard. Ok, so based on 970m trit, 230m pyer, 80m mexallon and assorted stuff, it'd take about 3 JF loads of minerals per supercapital. If your round trip is 28 jumps, then you're looking at 21 hours of round trip movement per supercapital's worth of materials. That's just the empire -> ass end of nullsec portion of course, and you can probably cut the number of jumps need by using gates or other tools. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 02:02:00 -
[55] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote: Quick math test: how many blockade runners do I need and for how long per week to run 1 million m3 to null.
You can call me a liar all you want, but that is my transport need, regardless of the arguments you want to make about it. And I'm just a small corp.
EDIT: we already mine like crazy.
16 DSTs through a convenient wormhole. Could probably do it in a day or less, depending on how far off from your home you're willing to look for a hole. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 02:04:00 -
[56] - Quote
Rarnak Ki wrote:I find it funny how many of the people (the only people?) praising the proposed changes to jump freighters have never done alliance scale logistics or any high end industry. Or, yanno, we did it before JFs were a thing and managed just fine building outposts in drone lands the day after they opened using freigters convoyed through nullsec and supplemented with T1 haulers.
Get off my lawn. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 02:06:00 -
[57] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote: I don't have 21 hours per week to risk slipping into a coma from the worst game experience available internationally. But it's actually 42, because 28 mids * 15 minutes * 2 (round trip) * 3 = 42, with a minimum commitment per person of 14.
Get people to help you?
I hear there might be these things called other people in alliances that might be able to lend a hand. You might actually have to pay them for it though - heaven forfend. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 02:39:00 -
[58] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:Veskrashen wrote:Nazri al Mahdi wrote: I don't have 21 hours per week to risk slipping into a coma from the worst game experience available internationally. But it's actually 42, because 28 mids * 15 minutes * 2 (round trip) * 3 = 42, with a minimum commitment per person of 14.
Get people to help you? I hear there might be these things called other people in alliances that might be able to lend a hand. You might actually have to pay them for it though - heaven forfend. 14 hours per week per roundtrip. No one in their right mind wants that kind of a PITA. You are either trolling or need to admit you are wrong about the JF nerf. Take gates to cut it down. Or, yanno, admit that you could MOVE CLOSER TO MAKE IT EASIER.
Noone has to make moving 1mil m3 per week to the ass end of nowhere easy. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 03:11:00 -
[59] - Quote
smokeydapot wrote:Lets see if the devs can communicate with the CSM first no wonder this threadnaught has hit a near epic level of rage not to mention lies from devs yet again. Well, this thread is 60% lazy entitled nullbears screaming their heads off that the changes will work exactly as CCP intends, 35% folks like me telling them to HTFU and adapt this is EVE ffs not WoW, and 5% folks interested in the nitty gritty of the mechanics.
Sounds like their goal of identifying edge cases and getting solid feedback from the community is working as intended - just like these changes likely will.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 03:14:00 -
[60] - Quote
smokeydapot wrote:I was actually thinking caldari ice for all the reaction towers all over eve because they are the only towers with enough CPU to get the job done but your little troll ass can't see the full picture can it.
Get back under your bridge. Oh please. You can fit 1600 days worth of fuel for large Caldari towers in one JF load. Quit your whining already. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Posted - 2014.10.03 03:15:00 -
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Nazri al Mahdi wrote:Joey Zasa wrote: REAL MEN BIOMASS!!!!!
Ladies first, after you, I insist. We like the changes as is, and think the game will be better when they're implemented.
It's folks like you who refuse to adapt that need to consider ending the misery their logistics burden will impose.
Can I have your stuff? I don't mind the trip.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Posted - 2014.10.03 03:32:00 -
[62] - Quote
smokeydapot wrote:It's more pointing out another flaw in this half assed idea of "living" in a set area and off the resources of that area.
If I'm guna live in a set area I don't want to depend on JF's I'm happy to live off the local resources my problem is that POS's need more attention than jump mechanics as that is where your local reactions are going to happen.
We are either independent of JF's and rely on our local resources or we are not but short sighted "fixes" are the problem. Since CCP's design goal, consistently across essentially every iteration, has been to ensure that no one area of space has access to everything...
... you're fooling yourself that it will ever be the case that you can do everything you want from one place.
Want easier POS logistics and Caldari ice? Move to space with Caldari ice.
Does that mean you have to give something up do to that?
Congratulations - welcome to balancing benefits and drawbacks.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 03:36:00 -
[63] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:Then let me point out something obvious of which you are unaware: my feedback about this change was solicited by the owners of this forum. They asked for this. If you have a problem with that, take it up with CCP. Allow us to point out that our opinions of your opinions - misguided, entitled, and revealing an appalling case of nullbear laziness - was also solicited. They asked for it, as did you when you posted in this forum.
We have no issue with continuing to point out that your opinions do nothing to advance the state of the game at large.
Cheers!
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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527
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Posted - 2014.10.03 11:24:00 -
[64] - Quote
Alp Khan wrote:(Hint: T2 materials are tied into null moons) Hint: there's plenty of moons in lowsec too, to include R32/64, and plenty of the racial ones laying around. We'll get by.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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528
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Posted - 2014.10.03 11:30:00 -
[65] - Quote
The Ironfist wrote:CCP Greyscale have you and your team concidered giving JF's and Rorquals the same range Blackops enjoy? (Current titan range 7,85ly)
It would at least solve the problem of logistics unable to make regional divides in the south and North-East. (Not sure how many other divides there are that can not be made with 5ly) Use gates. They're there for a reason.
Voila! No need to make JFs special snowflakes anymore.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
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Posted - 2014.10.03 15:30:00 -
[66] - Quote
Yugo Reventlov wrote:As an exercise, I invite every nullsec inhabitant to check how their Jump Freighter supply route would look from empire to where they live. I did the same for a previous home I had in Stain: http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Anshar,055/Paye:W-Q233What used to be 3 jumps - meaning I needed 4 cyno toons - is now 10 jumps. I have a feeling I'd be very Fatigued by the time I got to my destination. Take stargates from Efa -> 3-FKCZ -> I1Y-IU -> C-7SBM. Jump to 49-U6U. Gate to 4-07MU. Jump FAT-6P, T-8UOF, W-Q233.
You save a lot of time, use 4 jumps instead of 10, a lot less accumulated jump fatigue even if jumping on timer cooldown, and a lot less isotope usage.
I invite every nullsec inhabitant to realize that you can actually use stargates after the changes, and factor that into your new routes.
Yes, that means alliances with deep null holdings will need to secure their lines of communication accordingly. This might even, god forbid, drive some content. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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530
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Posted - 2014.10.03 15:40:00 -
[67] - Quote
remus wulf wrote:264 pages of comments in 3 days and that number will rise significantly by the time you implement these changes. That speaks volumes at the amount of disgruntled players your about to cause to quit. That speaks volumes at the amount of whining entitled crybabies that refuse to adapt, yes. Suck it up buttercup.
In the meantime, folks from other forums are jumping with joy and resubbing due to the new life being breathed into the game.
We'll live, and enjoy the game all the more for your absence. Ta! We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 17:21:00 -
[68] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:I really think the solution to increasing density in 0.0 is by seeding "freeport NPC outposts" all over 0.0 space.
Nullbears can make these all on their own already. Offline any cyno jammers, unrestrict docking rights, charge no docking fees, not camp the routes in and out.
None of them will, and prior efforts to do this got canned when someone found out they were funneling cash to "the other side".
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
535
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Posted - 2014.10.03 17:33:00 -
[69] - Quote
Yuri Thorpe wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Yuri Thorpe wrote:Honestly for blops, just let them be exempt from the changes, also buff the HP by 10% so they might have a little more staying power. Scan res buffs are welcome as well :D If there is no way for a BLOP BS to become a jump freighter substitute then I totally for this. Anything to promote/preserve any form of PVP is a go in my book. (JF.... not so much) At worst they bridge blockade runners, they hold like 10k cargo :P Little over 13k fully cargo fit, not including containers. So like 17k all told.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
535
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Posted - 2014.10.03 17:52:00 -
[70] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Is a JF a strategic asset? Probably not. Are stealth bombers strategic assets? No.
Putting JF's on fatigue schedule likely has to do with other in-game objectives. Limiting JF / Rorqual range is to keep them from being used as battle taxis. In short, if they had longer range, they could be used to haul butt across the map via jump drive, then hop into waiting capitals to dunk someone with minimal fatigue. Keeping the range short makes that less practical, which makes using subcaps (or wormholes) to traverse long distances rapidly the optimal method. Since subcaps can be interdicted and delayed in a variety of ways, this adds to the game.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
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535
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Posted - 2014.10.03 18:12:00 -
[71] - Quote
Ban JF from hauling ships and there's no need to kill the eve economy by nerfing the trade ships into oblivion.[/quote] It's not the ship the JF is hauling, it's the pilot. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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537
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Posted - 2014.10.03 18:15:00 -
[72] - Quote
Necro Cat wrote:Hello, Just my two cents
I've been in the game since 2008, I flew small ships, cruisers and battlecruisers and enjoyed them much, I have spent my career mostly in null and low, been a pirate, now I've found a really good capital fielding alliance. They took me in for training and...
....I am now a carrier/ dreadnaught/ freighter pilot, have been for 3 years (and I'm training for a Super Carrier)
Since then, I have flown alongside a few other capitals in sooooo much combat, it was glorious, it was fun, exciting, really exciting, but...... it was easier than I had thought. Really, really easy.
My capital fleet was crushing absolutely everyone in its path, we hotdropped on everyone we could with impunity, literally everything; one time we even went to low-sec and hotdropped 17 dreadnaughts and 12 carriers on a mining frigate, yes a mining frigate, but that's a tale for another thread. Where we went, it didn't take too long to setup a hotdrop either, there were plenty of targets to drop on, and they wouldn't be able to do anything!.
Over time, I was slowly changing my mind, it was less and less fun to knock down on the home space of the little guys with my capital fleet, taking over their sovereignty, their stations, their space business all the while they couldn't do anything, but look on as their POS's were sacked and the assets in them were seized. It paid, my god did it pay, but it was no longer fun. What was fun was when they would fight or at least bring a fight.
So today, reading through all this I realized, thinking back on my combat experiences, records and victories in nullsec/lowsec, this is what EvE needs, its something it needs rather desperately; a challenge, a new way of thinking for capital ships, no one should have it easy as I did in my early capital days, its just not right, its not fun for either side of the fight, I know this now, it is why Eve is dying :( so you must implement this.
This really is the step in the right way and does not need any rethinking, so please implement as soon as possible CCP Greyscale, I fully endorse this update!
PS Much Love Greyscale,
From An Alt xx +1. This Cat gets it. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
538
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Posted - 2014.10.03 18:34:00 -
[73] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: Here's the problem I see though. BLOPs have the ability to become the taxi for fleets of pilots to zip across new eden and nullify the fatigue issue. There would have to be a mechanism that prevents one of the big power blocks from just moving around eve in BLOPs to their cache of boringmobiles that have been pre staged.
That's the issue with giving JFs longer range, too.
Anything with offensive capability needs to have a Jump Fatigue modifier higher than the 0.1 that JFs currently have.
IMO, this includes Rorquals, since there's far too many folks out there gaming out Battle Rorq fits that throw 1k dps, have 2.2k spider tank and are cap stable. Basically more expensive versions of existing carriers, that will be far more mobile than any other combat capital post-nerf. Increasing their fatigue modifier to something like .25-.4 would probably allow them to continue to be solid support platforms with more mobility than carriers, while not becoming combat replacements in the same way.
BLOPS need a fatigue modifier, that's clear. Their use doesn't have the same Apex Force Unstoppable Blob issues that Supercaps and Titans (or capital blobs in general) have. Primarily because of the lack of effective logistics support. They are still jump capable combat boats though, and their increased range is definitely an advantage in this New Order. They can outpace any other teleportation based pursuer in the game under the new rules.
Something like a 0.4-0.7ish modifier would probably work? That would let them drop in, gank stuff, extract without having to wait obscene amounts of time. That or jump in, gank something, roam for a bit, gank something else, hop over the pursuers, gank something else, jump over there, gank something, then extract.
I love the idea of BLOPS forces being the true harrassment tools they should have been all along, until LOLCapsOnline and jump bridge networks made countering them too easy.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
540
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Posted - 2014.10.03 18:40:00 -
[74] - Quote
gascanu wrote:and you will get to deep space...how? Wormholes. Gates. Jumping into your space and right through. Going around the long way.
In short, where there's a will there's a way. Can't guard all the portal gates all the time well enough - and if you try, you'll just burn yourself out.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
541
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:03:00 -
[75] - Quote
Jethro Winchester wrote: You still really don't understand the ramifications of these changes on the little guy.
To quote Rorschach. "I'm not locked in here with you, you're all locked in here with me."
Enjoy the never-ending gatecamps Mr.Galmil. Snuff can't save you anymore. ;)
I think I do understand the ramifications on the little guy, since we're making changes to adapt to them now. And no, I doubt we'll see never ending gatecamps.
Besides, Snuff Box wouldn't save us after all the damage we've been doing to their static assets since CalMil hasn't been up to... snuff... lately.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
542
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:16:00 -
[76] - Quote
Toriessian wrote: - Make any jump/bridge to a covert beacon not accrue fatigue outside of T3s
- T3s can still be bridged but normal fatigue applies to the T3 pilot
- A Black Ops BS CAN bridge/jump to a normal Cyno but normal fatigue rules apply
- Jumping/being bridged to a covert cyno causes pilot to be unable jump/bridge to regular cyno for 24 hours from the jump.
Can't exempt BLOPS from fatigue, otherwise you'd just have Sins / Redeemers being the Pony Express for stealth bomber fleets of cap pilots to speed across the universe, arriving in the cap staging system with zero fatigue. That's no bueno.
On the other hand...
What if fatigue accumulation and it's impact on jump timers were independent factors?
In other words, you BLOPS to a cyno 7.875 AU away. You gain a jump timer of (1+(distance*distance modifier)) * ( 1+(fatigue * timer modifier)). Your new fatigue is (fatigue * (1 + (distance * fatigue modifier))).
You could then have BLOPS be able to jump rapidly and accumulate fatigue at a higher rate. So use something like 0.1 for the "timer modifier" and 0.5 for the "fatigue modifier". You could even keep the "distance modifier at 1.
This would give you a jump timer of 8.875 minutes, with a fatigue of say 5.45 or so. Your next max range jump gets you something like a 13.71 minute jump timer, with a fatigue of roughly 24.18. This would let you make a lot of jumps relatively quickly, but still saddle you with a large fatigue modifier which would impair your ability to hop in other jump-capable ships and carry on operations normally.
This would also give a lot of tunability to devs, who can then independently tweak the impact of distance jumped on jump timers, distance jumped on fatigue accumulation, and the impact of fatigue on jump timers.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
542
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:21:00 -
[77] - Quote
Alp Khan wrote:Doc Fury wrote: I guess all those successful freighter escorts everyone used to have to do before jump freighters were introduced were everyone's imagination.
Chronologically, before Jump Freighters, people were hauling goods on industrials, stuffed into carrier hangars... And yet, we still did freighter convoys, all the way out to the dronelands from Molden Heath, successfully, several times.
But hey, nullsec pilots were real manly men back then, who did what was needed even when it was difficult. We were hard men, and we made hard choices. Unlike the namby pamby risk averse lazy nullbears we got these days.
Get off my lawn.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
543
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:27:00 -
[78] - Quote
Zhul Chembull wrote: Wrong wrong and more wrong. If you flew in null you would know better. No one and I mean no real JF pilot will use a gate. Not now, not ever. Those that do are km. Rorquals will not be used now or ever for combat, never. The big alliances are already organized enough to compensate for this, this only effects smaller alliances starting up or coming out. It is not going to happen especially after the dev team pisses off half of null sec. No one, and I mean no one, is going to have a pleasant time getting past what will be a perma gate camp. At 5y range, believe me when I say the big alliances will have plenty of use for their super caps and titans. You have no idea what a can of worms this is going to open. Luckily I wont be here to see the debacle after my subs run out.
Logistics is not easy, that is how I know you are not a logistics pilot. Ask any of the frog guys lurking here, logistics is as dangerous as it has always been. You my friend are not a logistics pilot regardless to what you say. Any real logistics pilot understands the impact on the economy. It will destroy small alliances. Game, set, match.
Flew in null for years before JFs became a thing. We did fine taking billions through gates in slow vulnerable freighters. The fact that ya'll are so risk averse you refuse to even consider the benefit of taking a gate is telling.
The ones with balls will take the gates because it's faster, shorter, and gives them an edge. They'll take appropriate precautions in doing so.
Regarding Rorquals - if you don't see that you get 80% or so of the performance of the current carriers with a lot more mobility than the post nerf carriers, and that SOMEONE will damn sure put that into play... you're remarkably short sighted and blind to the lengths actual EVE players will go to hammer someone. Unless they address the Battle Rorqual issue before this change goes live, I predict you'll see them in action before the end of the year. 1 PLEX? We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
543
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:32:00 -
[79] - Quote
Toriessian wrote:Veskrashen wrote: Can't exempt BLOPS from fatigue, otherwise you'd just have Sins / Redeemers being the Pony Express for stealth bomber fleets of cap pilots to speed across the universe, arriving in the cap staging system with zero fatigue. That's no bueno.
And they wouldn't be able to do anything for 24 hours with my idea. Normal caps can't jump to covert cynos. That literally makes it better for them to use interceptors, which could also get the pilot anywhere he wants in 20-30 minutes relatively risk free. Interceptor making my idea on the 24 hour limit kinda blah as is. Interceptors can be smartbombed to hell by well organized fleets with solid intel, though. I suspect that Rooks and Kings among others will be plugged into all the right intel channels just waiting for the right day to ruin some bloc's response to a timer.
Which doesn't totally invalidate your point about interceptors as taxis, but nullbears be crying regardless, so meh.
One of the things I like about the multiple modifiers is that you can do things to tweak the impacts of fatigue accumulation and distance traveled. This gives CCP a lot more flexibility than arbitrary timers, gives players choices to make and tradeoffs to consider, and all the emergent gameplay that comes with it. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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546
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:38:00 -
[80] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:Look we all wish we could be as big and tough as you and get a model girlfriend and learn karate too....but the point is people wont have to do the freighter convoys. JFs will still work. Existing methods may no longer be sufficient, but people can solve thay problem. So you can button up your shirt, we are all impressed by your man boo...errr pecs. Thanks. They got me my model wife. Karate helped too, of course. *zips up*
And you're right - JFs will still work. Point being that if we could take that stuff 40+ jumps into null through gates, surely you masters of the known universe have the ability to secure a couple chokepoints long enough to get your JFs through in order to make their jump routes more efficient.
I mean come on, it ain't THAT hard. I know you all are used to zero risk comfy living out there, but sheesh. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:41:00 -
[81] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:[Oh yes, Rooks and Kings will stop ALL ceptor gangs ALL the time and NOBODY will think to send a few scouts. Oh, and nobody ever uses a bounce point when travelling through null, ever. No, they won't stop them all. But when they do... man will it have an impact.
And yes - scouts and bounce points and all that exist and will be used. People also make mistakes, and setting up on chokepoints forces folks to go around. Controlling the interior of that movement space makes it a lot harder to circumvent, and any delay screws those rushing to help.
In short, there are ways to impact even the might interceptor speed taxi of doom. They will be used, and they will have an impact. The magnitude of that impact will depend entirely on the skill of the folks involved.
I have far more faith in the skill and ingenuity of the RnK line member than a nullbear capital line pilot. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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546
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:44:00 -
[82] - Quote
remus wulf wrote:Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:[quote=wohenhao] Just shut it down and walk away - Unsubscribing is the only thing CCP understands. Could not agree more and if enough people unsub from eve maybe just maybe CCP will consider reversing wot is sure to be a major mistake. Can we have your stuff then? Preferably before the change hits and we actually have to :effort: to get it somewhere. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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547
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:57:00 -
[83] - Quote
Jethro Winchester wrote:Wait..you're in Justified Chaos? The GalMil corp that docked up to hide with the rest of GalMil when RDF brought a Rorqual and a 15 man frigate gang to Nennamaila station?
Considering how cowardly you guys were I think you should probably be quiet and go sit in the corner. We're waving killboards around?
Ok. I've got about 3.5x as many kills as you.
JUSTK has about 7x as many kills at CYNOU.
...guess that means you ought to go sit in a corner and let the menfolk handle things, yeah? We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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547
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Posted - 2014.10.03 19:58:00 -
[84] - Quote
Zhul Chembull wrote:Lets get into reality here real quick. This update is going through, we mostly know that. Some of us are just hoping, small hope, there is some reason on board with the dev group. there is no reason to wager, it will not be needed. However, I do wager this will reduce subs by at least 10 percent. That is a bet we can make. If we got subscription numbers I'd be down for that bet.
Something based on ACU Higher average concurrent users 4-6 weeks after Phoebe than before? We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 20:04:00 -
[85] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:Veskrashen wrote:Kun'ii Zenya wrote:[Oh yes, Rooks and Kings will stop ALL ceptor gangs ALL the time and NOBODY will think to send a few scouts. Oh, and nobody ever uses a bounce point when travelling through null, ever. No, they won't stop them all. But when they do... man will it have an impact. And yes - scouts and bounce points and all that exist and will be used. People also make mistakes, and setting up on chokepoints forces folks to go around. Controlling the interior of that movement space makes it a lot harder to circumvent, and any delay screws those rushing to help. In short, there are ways to impact even the might interceptor speed taxi of doom. They will be used, and they will have an impact. The magnitude of that impact will depend entirely on the skill of the folks involved. I have far more faith in the skill and ingenuity of the RnK line member than a nullbear capital line pilot. Perhaps you missed it....people can set up jump clones strategically...to help mitigate the issue of chocke points. And capital pilots in ceptors using a bridge isn't that big a deal to get by one choke point at least so I don't think the pipe bombing is going to be a significant deterrent. You may have missed it - jump clones have a long timer, which makes them inconvenient for multiple rapid deployments in less than 24 hours. Which is the point of using interceptors instead. Especially after the death clone nerf. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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547
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Posted - 2014.10.03 21:09:00 -
[86] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:Like what? The attacker is going to suddenly switch to another front? They'll.....use their jump capable..ships....too....uhhhh.....oh yeah fatigue.
One thing about this change....you wont need to move from one end of the map to the other in short periods of time. Because the changes will constrain attackers and defenders...probably more so for the attackers.
Oh yeah, and I'm in a coalition that is going to be quite happy having our opponents capital and super capital capability gimped.
So again. This might promote some more roaming (undoubtedly a good thing) but I don't see it really changing things much, at least on the western side of the map. First you're assuming that you're only fighting one opponent at a time.
Second, you're right - you have the shorter distance to cover, which gives you an advantage. It doesn't allow you to be in two places at once.
Third, wherever you decide to focus your core strength of the coalition, it'll be hard to make progress. Everywhere else will become a nice vulnerable squishy target ripe for the gutting. Which someone will take advantage of, guaranteed.
I anticipate that we'll see some significant changes over the next six months - even in the west. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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548
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Posted - 2014.10.03 21:16:00 -
[87] - Quote
Zhul Chembull wrote:Ill just do a spreadsheet, (we play eve after all) and do a peek test daily and compare it to current peak subscription. If the sample polls here are indicative of what the masses will do. We all know some will leave right when it happens and some will come when it happens, it may be better to do a comparative analysis 3 months down the road after the update, then again under its current conception I wont be here. I will do my best to do some statistics on this.
Sold. I'm betting Nosy Gamer will probably be looking at similar data.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.03 22:30:00 -
[88] - Quote
Regnag Leppod wrote:X Gallentius wrote:MeBiatch wrote:I think that the larger alliances like goonswarm will move to ecpar in cloud ring which is close to high sec and all the other major players will follow suit which will mean that smaller alliances and corps will fill the vacum in deep space as they will be willing to take the risk and the space is filled with outposts. They will rent the systems out, not abandon them completely. Renting is a growing issue. There needs to be incentive for the SOV holding alliance to do the work, not just rent out every belt and anom they want to call their own. "Renting" has been an issue since 2004, when "sov claims" were nothing more than forum flame threads and colors on Ombey's Eve Maps. Even back then it was "our space, even if we're not using us, pay us or we kill you". Just that alliances back then held a lot smaller area, because they had to travel by gates to project power.
Which seems to be the model CCP wants to move us back towards. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
550
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Posted - 2014.10.03 22:41:00 -
[89] - Quote
Alp Khan wrote:Tell us more about this.. lawn of yours please. It's called lowsec. That terrible place where nullbears fear to tread.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
550
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Posted - 2014.10.03 22:52:00 -
[90] - Quote
Alp Khan wrote:If these changes are opening strategic choices for whatever entity you are involved with, could you tell us what these mythical, supposedly new strategic choices are? Additionally, you may want to add more credibility to your statement by adding the list of strategic decisions in EVE you made personally over the length of time you have been playing. Thanks! HAHAHAHA! Yeah... my days of "strategic decisions" are over. 6 months of running a nullsec alliance cured me of that particular disease. Did just fine leading my small corp at the time to drop an outpost in the dronelands less than a week after they opened, though, which I'm proud of.
At any rate.
The simple reality is that you only have so many pilots and so many caps available to be at any one place in a particular time period. The introduction of jump fatigue, along with the reduced jump ranges, introduce variables that can be exploited by a cunning set of opponents. You will be unable to deploy down to Delve to help your renters and maintain a credible cap/supercap threat in the northeast, for example.
Am I going to be the one to lead it? Hell no, those days are behind me.
Is it possible? Absolutely.
Do enough folks have it in for CFC / are motivated by the challenge to make that a reality? I'm willing to bet that they are.
In some ways, PL/N3 have it easier with their renter space tucked away in the far southeast, while you're closer to a lot more NPC null and lowsec areas.
Will be fun to watch the fireworks after this hits, especially if N3/PL sack up and drop the B0TLRD Accords. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
550
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Posted - 2014.10.03 22:54:00 -
[91] - Quote
Grave Digger Eriker wrote:Primary This Rifter wrote:So I found out that if you make 8 maximum-range jumps as soon as possible between jumps (which takes about a month), you drive your jump fatigue so high that it takes over two and a half years to expire completely. lol
Of course you could just make the 8 jumps in 7 hours and ignore that issue completely. LOL and wait until you buy a character off the Bazaar and find out it has a 2 year cooldown in place. PRICELESS Except it'll be 30 days max, and I'm willing to bet there will be rules in place requiring disclosure. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
551
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Posted - 2014.10.03 22:57:00 -
[92] - Quote
ziktreyon wrote:It means CFC is now 100% unstoppable. I look forward to seeing Mittens nullify the B0TLRD accords and conquering the galaxy.
I'd put money on him not having the stones to put his home areas at risk, though.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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583
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Posted - 2014.10.04 13:45:00 -
[93] - Quote
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:[t is something CCP should consider though...we play this game to have fun. Here, you do the math...you are your alliances Logistics GuyGäó. You have to move 10,000,000 m3 out to your space. You have a JF. You have two JF alts, you can swap the JF at a mid point and you have two cyno alts and each jump is 4 LY. How much extra time will fatigue impose on you assuming you wait for fatigue to go down to 0 after each jump?
Give me a ball park number on how many extra hours it would take to get that job done...then tell me what you think the fun factor would be? You say to your alliance directors: "Give me more JF pilots and the players to fly them, or give me an escort through gates X Y and Z, or build the big stuff local. Otherwise we fall, cuz ain't no way in hell I'm doing this all on my own."
If you're smart, that is.
Which I'm betting is what CCP is kinda going for. More pilots in space to do things the current way, increased local industry, or PvPers in combat ships keeping the lanes clear for JFs to move through to shorten the jump distances needed.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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585
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Posted - 2014.10.04 17:19:00 -
[94] - Quote
After listening to the PL chat with EVE-UNI, I wonder how my sov warfare 6-12 months from now is going to look like the Cal-Gal FW warzone over the past 1-2 years.
1. Logistics wins wars. 2. Geography matters. 3. ATTRITION COUNTS. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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587
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Posted - 2014.10.05 05:15:00 -
[95] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:the missions weren't fixed, so they didn't cry or adjust all that much Plex changes were huge in their own right.
Missions will get adjusted as soon as the new content tools are up and running - which, given the new Burner missions, probably won't be that much longer. Early 2015 is my guess. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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589
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Posted - 2014.10.05 15:24:00 -
[96] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:It seems like this could be fixed up if some kind of a penalty is applied when you leave the JF ship and switch to a different capital ship.
Speaking of "exploits", there's already a potential "exploit" with JFs getting used to get around to capitals with 90% reduction of fatigue. This is where various ship-based modifiers to the the impact of distance on the jump timer, rate of fatigue accumulation, and impact of fatigue on the jump timer could come into play. This might let you give the JF a slightly longer range in exchange for a "more normal" fatigue accumulation, with a lower than normal impact on the jump timer. That way, if you use the JF to circumvent the usual speed limits, you'll still have a huge fatigue buildup when you hop into your combat vessel.
Same thing needs to be look at with respect to Rorquals.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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589
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Posted - 2014.10.05 15:34:00 -
[97] - Quote
Gregor Parud wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:Gregor Parud wrote:Hmmm, the thread slowed down. Seems the CFC whine train ran out of steam, perhaps they just ran out of tears to shed. Have a closer look at who is posting, very few goons are against this, you know why, because it benefits them more then anybody else. They have the manpower to cope with the changes. They have the Capital ships to defend their home systems, they have the isk to seed system after system with carriers and dreads and they are going to have even more isk after these changes. Nice propaganda, you're doing great. He's right actually. Gewnspace is closer to empire, they've got a ridiculously competent logistics crew in GSOL, they've got excellent management tools, they've got smart folks who are already gaming out where they need to stash a bazillion caps and jump clones to make putting out fires in Delve and Tenal the same day practical. They're in a pretty damn good position truth be told.
It's going to hit those folks who live in the south and east a lot harder, due to topography and a lack of polished management tools, not to mention a lack of professional masochists in GSOL.
The open question is whether folks can exploit that proximity to empire to run Gewns ragged trying to manage their scattered empire. Gewns have the hulls, the organization, and the manpower. Question is whether they've got a deep enough FC bench to start running more distributed fleets, and how long it takes folks on the other side to put significant pressure over a wide enough area.
It'll be fun to watch, no doubt. Made a run to Costco to stock up on popcorn, in fact.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
589
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Posted - 2014.10.05 15:45:00 -
[98] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Yes, over 11x more carebearing in nullsec, no time to fight. CCP created lowsec to train the fighters...
LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!!!!
I can't shake the feeling that it didn't used to be this way back in the old days. Which is why I love FW so much - reminds me of the good old days before Supercaps Online and galaxy-wide hegemonies. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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589
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Posted - 2014.10.05 16:04:00 -
[99] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:Oh gawd - this is perfect. I'm half-tempted to log in my cyno chain just to like this. Very nice.
CCP READ THIS> Wait, we agree on something?!?!?!?
EDIT: Still think the smart way to shorten the long ass run to deep dronelands is to take Paala -> LXQ2-T, and force your renter overlords to ensure it's safe. But that's me, and I get that a lot of folks who live that far out aren't exactly confident that'll happen. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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589
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Posted - 2014.10.05 16:12:00 -
[100] - Quote
I would encourage folks who are interested in these changes to listen to Manny and Jeffraider (along with some shmoe called Oh Takashawa) from PL do an hour and a half long Q&A over at EVE-Uni. Well worth the listen.
http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=72&p=734425#p734425
They mention freighter convoys fondly, talk about the importance of topography under the new jump paradigm, and speculate on where EVE might go after the patch. Spoiler - none of them think this will break up sov null, and even they admit that the fact that they can hold dronelands unchallenged without even being there is broken.
The future will be interesting times, ladies and gents. Interesting times. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
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589
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Posted - 2014.10.05 16:14:00 -
[101] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:Yuri Thorpe wrote:
They don't, no one moves with 500 man bomber fleets, no one moves with 50 blops, tell me one kill with 500 bombers on it, I will even take 150 bombers
Your sov was taken with mass bombers in the fountain war. And post jump changes, especially if they introduce lower structure HP, it'll be feasible to bridge in a bunch of Stealth Bombers and T3s with Blockade Runners to SBU systems "behind enemy lines". With lowered ability to be everywhere at once, this allows an attacker to force the defender to choose where to be and how to defend.
Life's gonna get interesting. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
591
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Posted - 2014.10.05 16:31:00 -
[102] - Quote
I think one way to mitigate the NPC null supply issue would be to add a couple null -> lowsec gates. Frame it as pirate empires expanding their reach and shoring up their supply routes following the revelation of the jump fatigue issues. That'd give deep NPC null residents a way to supply themselves, while not making it *too* easy. There's a good bit of security to be had living in deep nullsec after these changes, and it ought to be paid for in convenience IMO. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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Posted - 2014.10.05 16:35:00 -
[103] - Quote
Obsidian Hawk wrote:Who will be post 7000? WE HAVE A WINNER! We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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593
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Posted - 2014.10.05 16:42:00 -
[104] - Quote
gascanu wrote:Veskrashen wrote:I would encourage folks who are interested in these changes to listen to Manny and Jeffraider (along with some shmoe called Oh Takashawa) from PL do an hour and a half long Q&A over at EVE-Uni. Well worth the listen. http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopic.php?f=72&p=734425#p734425They mention freighter convoys fondly, talk about the importance of topography under the new jump paradigm, and speculate on where EVE might go after the patch. Spoiler - none of them think this will break up sov null, and even they admit that the fact that they can hold dronelands unchallenged without even being there is broken. The future will be interesting times, ladies and gents. Interesting times. one thing that no one seems to mention is that after this patch alowing caps to use gates, the unreachable drone regions won't be so unreachable anymore p.s: they will be just one gate jump away form VENAL Yup. And believe me, smart folks are already realizing that. Of course, invading the dronelands from Venal would kinda be a B0TLRD violation, wouldn't it? And what's to stop someone from the dronelands from invading Venal - and taking the smugglers gates right over to Deklein?
Ah, backdoors and shortcuts. About damn time they started getting used again. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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593
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Posted - 2014.10.05 16:50:00 -
[105] - Quote
Eigenvalue wrote:[LOL
Gate jumping caps is a gimmick. It's only purpose is to create ALOD articles on the mittani. I guarandamntee you that people with balls will do it in a heartbeat if it gives them an advantage. The fact that there are so many risk averse numpties laughing at how it'll never happen will just make the surprise buttsex all the sweeter.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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594
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Posted - 2014.10.05 17:25:00 -
[106] - Quote
Skydell wrote:Veskrashen wrote:Eigenvalue wrote:[LOL
Gate jumping caps is a gimmick. It's only purpose is to create ALOD articles on the mittani. I guarandamntee you that people with balls will do it in a heartbeat if it gives them an advantage. The fact that there are so many risk averse numpties laughing at how it'll never happen will just make the surprise buttsex all the sweeter. If we are given a more efficient way of removing bubble walls, I very much agree. Jumping my carrier to a gate doesn't intimidate me. Even losing it to a gate camp is kind of m'eh. Being forced to double jump, triple jump every gate because drag bubble net? That's just sounds boring and painful. Yup, bubble walls would need to be dealt with. But I wonder how good of an eye folks really keep on those. Wonder what would happen if a crew were to head in early to blap them with nullified T3s / bombers / BLOPS BS and the like.
And, of course, bubble walls would impede subcap response times, and we already know the hard choices that are involved in capital travel after these changes.
My prediction is that as soon as the next major conflict starts, or as soon as major capital forces are committed in one area of the game, the rest of nullsec is going to light on fire as folks take advantage. Might not cause a major shift in the map, but damn will chaos reign for a while.
Better defensive SBU every damn gate in every bit of sov now, while you can gents. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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598
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Posted - 2014.10.05 19:02:00 -
[107] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Veskrashen wrote:Yup. And believe me, smart folks are already realizing that. Of course, invading the dronelands from Venal would kinda be a B0TLRD violation, wouldn't it? And what's to stop someone from the dronelands from invading Venal - and taking the smugglers gates right over to Deklein?
Ah, backdoors and shortcuts. About damn time they started getting used again. You're talking as if people aren't already preparing to invade God I effing hope so. B0TLRD is an abomination unto Uggan, and I can't wait to see it burn. Gewns will have some serious geographic and logistical advantages if they invade dronelands from Venal, no doubt. We'll see how it plays out though.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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598
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Posted - 2014.10.05 19:07:00 -
[108] - Quote
DNSBLACK wrote:It is going to take 2-3 year to un tuck this game. The isk pooling and the pooling of players in this game has happen over the last 4 years. All of those pools will slowly be drained. The one that will take the longest will be the breaking up of major alliances that have collected some of the best players in the game from organizing their own groups to be part of the easy mode. I can only hope that the hate still burns and the fire in old school grudges still lurks and over time the need to break out and go at it again comes to the top once again.
It is going to take 2-3 years to train new eve players and build groups to make a go of it. They will play eve in hard mode and be better for it. The game will change over night in programming only, it will be years before you see old school eve back up and running. Stay the course CCP and burn it all down I'm not sure it'll take 2-3 years to drain those isk pools, not if folks pull an Archduke Ferdinand moment and force some good supercap armageddons. I'm also not sure it'll take 2-3 years to train folks to Eve Correctly (tm), there's lots of folks from the "good old days" who are itching to get things back to where they were. There's also a lot of folks who stopped bothering to take on The Big Boys when it became BlobCaps Online, who will likely be reengerized by the changes. And of course there's those folks who simply relocated to lowsec (or are in NPC null) who remember fondly holding their own corner of null and will likely make a run at it once it's feasible again.
In short, just about anyone who really loves the chaos and destruction that this great game allows to unfold is just waiting in the wings for someone to light a match. CCP is giving us plenty of gasoline to soak things with, via this change and the ones coming down the pipe.
It will be glorious.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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618
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Posted - 2014.10.06 03:09:00 -
[109] - Quote
Azami Nevinyrall wrote:This would only work in NPC Null, having Agents in Player Controlled Null would be ISK printing machines with as many players inside these systems as possible...
In deep Null it'll be impossible to harass, so it'll have nothing but ratting supers... So create an iHub upgrade that replaces the military one. You still maintain sov, but the station becomes run by the local NPC pirate faction, with all the attendant implications. Sov owner loses control of docking rights, fees, etc etc etc. In exchange, they get an L1 agent, and they can improve their "agent index" by running missions, eventually getting an L5 agent.
You get your unlimited isk printing machine and infinitely scaling pilot density... in exchange for less control over the station itself. Worth it...? Kinda up to them to decide.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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618
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Posted - 2014.10.08 20:13:00 -
[110] - Quote
mynnna wrote:I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:
Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B) Isn't this rather exploitable in a home-defense sort of situation? I.e. as soon as you jump back to your origin system you reset to Fatigue = 1 (since you'll be multiplying all those modifiers by 0, which means you're taking current fatigue ^ 0, which always equals 1), which at the current decay rate would give you Fatigue = 0 in 10 minutes? That would essentially mean that you can rapidly deploy with Z lightyears of home base, hammer something, and head home - getting less and less fatigue accumulated as you do so. Once you're home, 10 minutes later you're totally refreshed and ready to go.
It also means that you can hop in your capitals, hammer the snot out of someone 15-20 LY from "home base", jump back home, get in your interceptors, spend 20-30 minutes crossing the map, and do the exact same thing there.
It's an interesting solution, but there's no reason to so heavily advantage teleportation in and around home systems, especially in such an exploitable way. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
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622
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Posted - 2014.10.08 20:55:00 -
[111] - Quote
Gwailar wrote:EDIT: Although you're not really multiplying by zero.
If I'm jumping back to the actual origin system, then I have: Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(0 * A + B)
0*A+B =/= 0
Using the original .3 suggestion for B, then I basically get: Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)/3
Still reducing fatigue without the passage of time, which breaks the whole thing. But not quite to 1. Good catch, you're right that I implied an extra parenthesis.
Moreover, even if it's a simple "reduce your Fatigue to 1/3 it's previous value by jumping home", then you've got a situation where you just jump home, take a gate next door, jump home, repeat until Fatigue = not worth bothering to take the gate anymore.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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622
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Posted - 2014.10.08 21:05:00 -
[112] - Quote
kxdan wrote:Arkon Olacar wrote:Are you guys high?
No seriously, have any of the people who came up with these changes ever played Eve before?
You've just killed off nullsec logistics singlehandedly. You've just made the minimum requirement to be in null the ability to fly an interceptor. You've just killed black ops fleets. You've made it impossible to enter half the regions in the game without using a gate. You've just made it impossible to live in most of the NPC null regions. You've not restricted capital fights, you've eliminated them from the game entirely.
Are we being trolled? Are you trying to kill off your own game? ^ This Nope. We're just Old Skool Eve Players, back when things were actually difficult and you had to take gates from place to place even if you weren't a poor.
HTFU. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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624
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Posted - 2014.10.08 21:06:00 -
[113] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:Those sneaky goons. Give the devil his due, for damn sure.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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624
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Posted - 2014.10.08 21:54:00 -
[114] - Quote
Regardless of the value of B you choose, you're still giving an arbitrary advantage to movement around or near a central point of your own choosing. Why the hell would you do that? Why would it be advantageous from a game design standpoint to make short range teleportation less costly for a defender than an attacker? What possible reason would you want that?
There should be no preference given to movement to / from an origin point over travel in a straight line. There is no balance reason that I can think of that would in any way be fair.
If you want to make corp / alliance logistics easier - and I see no reason to do so if your goal is to make nullsec life challenging again - then give JFs a slight range boost. But personally I want to see folks actually taking gates again, and for alliance level logistics to be handled by alliance level effort rather than 1 masochist with 80 accounts or something. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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629
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Posted - 2014.10.08 22:36:00 -
[115] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:Veskrashen wrote:Regardless of the value of B you choose, you're still giving an arbitrary advantage to movement around or near a central point of your own choosing. Why the hell would you do that? Why would it be advantageous from a game design standpoint to make short range teleportation less costly for a defender than an attacker? What possible reason would you want that? Since it's pretty clear that you don't have an idea how nullsec warfare works, let me explain. When someone moves to attack a location, they move their fleets to what is known as a "Staging System". Both the attackers AND the defenders have such a system, which they base their fleets out of. By implementing a change such as [No increase for jumping back to origin], then this allows for meaningful combat at the alliance/coalition warfare level by either the attacker OR the defender- provided that they were able to successfully set up a staging system. The intent for these changes is to inhibit people from being able to cross the entire map in under 30 minutes to join in to a cap fight. By enabling two forces to easily move in a 5 ly area around their origin, that will entice more, smaller, engagements rather than one large engagement. Since it's pretty clear that you have missed my point, let me explain.
Regardless of the existence of "staging systems", which were far more important when we actually had to take gates and couldn't just teleport around the map, the issue is that you're treating one form of teleportation (moving around a central location) preferentially over another (unidirectional movement). In order to justify that, you have to have a damn good reason. Facilitating current modes of gameplay is not necessarily a damn good reason, particularly since the whole reason for implementing a jump fatigue and timer mechanic is to change the current modes of gameplay.
In addition, since I can see that you aren't terribly savvy when it comes to implications, an attacker will still have to jump towards the defender. This means that an attacker will always be operating farther from his "staging system" than the defender, who will always have the geographic advantage of the interior lines. Under this exponential system of gaining fatigue based on distance from the origin, the attacker will always accumulate fatigue at a significantly higher rate than the defender.
Finally, this means that subcap defense fleets can continue to use jump bridge networks to counter invaders with minimal jump fatigue buildup. Not only do they have the above advantage of interior lines, they generally have to cover far less distance to begin with. Forcing subcap fleets to actually take gates or actually have to make tradeoffs when deciding to bridge ahead of a roaming gang would balance the scales a bit better than the current "hurr hurr we're everywhere you want to be n00b". We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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629
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Posted - 2014.10.08 23:49:00 -
[116] - Quote
Mr Omniblivion wrote:1) The vast majority of nullsec warfare happens at a subcap level. Seeing as your gallente militia alliance probably doesn't engage in sov warfare, nor hold sov, you don't understand that most fleets travel solely by gates already. Cap fleets are a whole other issue, which is what this solution is intended to nerf. The factor you're missing is the jump bridge system, but again, you don't have any jump bridges so I can't tell if you've actually used one.
2) If you think that attackers are jumping directly into combat from their home space rather than from their staging system, then you're in for a bad time. Furthermore, the "defending" staging system is generally not on the front lines but behind a buffer of systems.
3) With the proposed formula, jump bridges would be viable to defend one region, but not jump from Deklein -> Delve. I don't know what sov warfare you've been a part of, but titan bridges generally only happen from your staging system outwards- rarely ever do you not take gates (or get blown up) back home.
But please, continue to tell us about nullsec from your Gallente FW alliance. 1. Even the subcaps generally use Titans to move, and considering my final paragraph was all about the advantage that jump bridges currently give defenders. And if the folks attacking you are closer to their target than you are, you're doing something seriously wrong.
2. I was actually talking about distance from staging system to target, but by all means go ahead and continue to fail at reading comprehension.
3. Yes, I'm aware you wouldn't be able to move from Dek -> Delve, either with the original CCP proposal or with Mynna's. Of course, we were discussing the advantages that short range teleportation gives to a defender, especially under Mynna's proposal, but by all means strawman away. Also, if you're not taking advantage of your home field jump bridge network to cut off a subcap fleet, again, you're doing it wrong.
You're absolutely right that I've not done sov warfare under the current system. Instead, I did nullsec warfare from '03-'08, back when things were actually difficult. But hey - people can't possibly look at a system and draw intelligent conclusions if they're not CFC/N3/PL. Because reasons.
On a side note, if you don't think that GalMil's experience over the past year+ of attrition warfare doesn't have parallels to the post-jump nerf, you're really really short sighted. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
629
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Posted - 2014.10.08 23:54:00 -
[117] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Veskrashen wrote:Regardless of the value of B you choose, you're still giving an arbitrary advantage to movement around or near a central point of your own choosing. Why the hell would you do that? Why would it be advantageous from a game design standpoint to make short range teleportation less costly for a defender than an attacker? What possible reason would you want that? . Attacker gates across eve and parks in his staging system. As they didn't jump on the way there, their origin is set to their staging system, and attacker & defender are now on very close to equal footing. It's not like origin is set once and never changes. What the attacker can't do anymore is cyno across eve in 20 minutes. Again, if you're letting the attacker be closer to his targets than your staging system, you're doing it wrong. Since I don't think anyone who is serious about bloc warfare is under any illusion that Gewns / CFC is stupid, I pretty much assume that as soon as a credible threat starts staging within jump range of Gewnville you'll shift your assets accordingly. Thus, my assertion that a competent defender will always have a shorter reship / jump distance to potential targets than their attackers.
And yes, I'm aware that their "origin" will be set to their staging system, since they haven't jumped yet. I'm also aware they couldn't jump across the galaxy in 20 minutes. None of which actually has any bearing on the issues I raised.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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635
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Posted - 2014.10.09 02:52:00 -
[118] - Quote
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:Alavaria Fera wrote:Christopher Mabata wrote:So i can now confirm these changes have been blown out of proportion Currently they are live on SISI ( ranges have not yet been nerfed, JF's are under TODO lockdown for the moment ) Working to drastically increase fatigue but on a 2 hour+ timer i had a drive cooldown of 12 minutes, which is about how long it would take me to move a cyno or get up and take a bio break or grab another beer.
I actually think now having seen and tested these myself that these will be more than live-able for null and low sec everywhere and dont require any additional tweaks i can think of. And given that my tests are with a carrier and not a JF the 90% fatigue reduction will make jump freighters easy street Good to hear. Thanks for testing null and low sec everywhere Seriously. Do a Jita run from Period Basis or Cobalt Edge. It's amazing how short that route gets when you take a couple interregional jump gates. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
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639
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Posted - 2014.10.09 13:37:00 -
[119] - Quote
I'll say it again: JFs should not get preferential treatment in terms of range over other capitals. Yes, null is currently totally dependent on empire to fuel their industry. Yes, decreasing range means that JFs will need to take risks by taking regional gates if they want to avoid soul crushing jump fatigue.
These are good things. The ease with which a small number of players can keep a large corp / alliance supplied in the deepest areas of null is one contributing factor to the stagnation of nullsec. It should not be a simple matter to build the largest ships in the game in the farthest end of null almost entirely from imported materials.
I understand this will be a shock to the system, but it's also effing stupid that logistics is this easy.
-1 to keeping JF range unnerfed. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
640
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Posted - 2014.10.09 14:42:00 -
[120] - Quote
Kiwinoob wrote:Veskrashen wrote:-1 to keeping JF range unnerfed. Wait... what?? Double negatives hurt my head :( To clarify, I do not believe that making JFs exempt from the jump range changes (i.e. leaving their jump range as-is or longer than that of other caps) is a good idea. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
640
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Posted - 2014.10.09 15:11:00 -
[121] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:Obviously you don't live in Cobalt Edge and it doesn't require you 20 JF jumps to get to nearest reachable empire station having to gothrough non-sov systems without stations. Nope. Lived in Outer Passage back when JFs weren't even available, and built outposts out there as well. Suck it up buttercup. and realize that you can take gates. And get off my lawn. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
641
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Posted - 2014.10.09 16:04:00 -
[122] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:You seem to be making some incorrect assumptions that i'm somehow unhappy with these changes while i'm simply pointing out the facts so that CCP can take it into account while hopefully making an informed decision without undesired consequences. It's entirely possible that making it difficult to get things out to Cobalt Edge / Outer Passage from empire is not, in fact, an undesired consequence from CCP's standpoint. It's also entirely possible that since the 5LY max jump range was a conscious decision on the part of CCP specifically to limit interregional jump travel, that forcing folks to use regional gates with their capitals if they want to avoid long jump chains was entirely intentional.
Granted, you might not have been complaining about the changes from a personal perspective, and if that's the case then so be it. But there are a lot of folks in this thread who have been citing the difficulty of getting stuff from empire to the ass end of dronelands specifically because of the time impact to their massive solo industrial efforts out there. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
641
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Posted - 2014.10.09 17:22:00 -
[123] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:Drone regions are special because there's a stationless gap in Great Wildlands that prevents near-station 5LY jump navigation completely. Such nerf to jump range will single out drone regions.. for better or worse. No other regions exhibit the same characteristic as far as I know. Even Stain/Paragon Soul are connected to empire through a chain of station jumps, making drone regions distinctly different from the rest of 0.0. http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Rorqual,044,S/58Z-IH:OdebeinnCompare that to say http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Rorqual,044,S/ZDYA-G:OdebeinnYou can see that there are stations along the navigation path. Yup, I definitely can, and I totally agree that dronelands are a unique situation. I also maintain that there is no reason to make things easier for the vast majority of EVE to address this issue. Particularly since the drone regions have always been an oddball.
Also, I'm not sure that CCP should be catering to station-station 5LY jump chains, especially if their goal is to help push large scale logistics away from total safety and into areas that invite potential interdiction. That would drive conflict / content and increase risk - something that is sorely lacking in day to day deep null life at the moment. We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
Veskrashen
Justified Chaos Spaceship Bebop
641
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Posted - 2014.10.09 18:00:00 -
[124] - Quote
Dream Five wrote:Right, but just from symmetry considerations perhaps they should either separate Pure Blind/Tribute/Geminate/Cloud Ring from the empire by something like Ginnungagap (or close Gnnungagap/add some stations to Great Wildlands) to avoid a situation where in some regions it's super easy to do nullsec logistics and it others it's super difficult. Worst case for say Deklein or even Outer Ring is maybe 5 jumps through stations. That's drastically different in terms of logistics effort from 20 jumps and a path that requires 2 stationless jumps. I'm not saying all regions should be symmetrical in logistics either, just something to think about.
Having said that I do think it's kind of cool and different to have a few regions with super hard logistics. I probably wouldn't live there myself because of !/$ is too low. Not sure who would. Who do you think would live there? Industrialists? PVPers? Carebears? I'm just having a bit of a hard time envisioning someone living that far away from empire.
Incidentally, because of this, I think this change favors goons heavily and makes me wonder if it was pitched to CCP by someone pursuing personal agenda. First, CCP has never really shown any interest in making various areas of space equally livable. I'm also not much of a Gewn Illuminati theorist, and I doubt this is a Gewn Plot to hobble PL/N3 and BOT. Thus, I'd probably oppose any artificial gulf to make Gewn logistics arbitrarily more difficult just because of droneland topography.
Second, in my opinion any analysis of routes / logistical burdens that ignores the existence of and use of stargates by capitals - to include JFs - is fundamentally flawed. While it is entirely likely that folks who are solo JFing around will never ever in a bazillion years take their JF through a gate or on a route where they are exposed to any risk whatsoever, I do not believe that it is a good idea to balance around that as a valid use case. By all means, those folks should be able to plot an appropriate route around in perfect safety, and make whatever diplomatic arrangements necessary to secure that route so they can travel in safety. I just don't think that CCP should accomodate that as the standard, when they can cut 75% of the jumps out of their route by taking a single stargate.
It will be interesting to see how the occupants of various areas shifts as these and other changes come online. It used to be that drone regions were home to small alliances who understood they were accepting more logistical difficulties for the chance to be away from the bigger blocks. The same is kinda true today, where they're occupied by renters who aren't big block sov war participants. IMO the ease of JF logistics has overly homogenized space, and the nerfing of jump travel is shifting the landscape in ways that are uncomfortable for folks who never knew the "Good Old Days". There will be a period of adjustment and the folks in Outer Passage / Cobalt Edge at this time next year are probably going to be a hardier bunch than are there today.
That's a good thing, I think.
We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..." |
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