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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 41 post(s)
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 176	Posted - 2014.10.02 02:24:00 - [1] - Quote So you guys wanted big battles to get you head lines so you listened to the big boys and made changes that helped them which helped you get news on huge super cap fights destroying huge dollar amounts of real life money if you convert the value of all the ships lost to real money with the current market value of PLEX. So now you are pissed that null sec has stagnated which is not only the logical outcome of the changes you've made but predicted by many people on the forums here. So now that you got what you wanted instead of addressing the root issue that you created you want to start trying to force certain types of game play rather than incentivize. With every change I wonder if the people making the calls at CCP have clue or if they even play this game. Instead of focusing on specific game play mechanics like this you need to first change the basic attitude and focus of you development teams. The key needs to be around usage. isk needs to be made from space getting used not space being owned. passive income needs to go. tools need to be put in place so corps and alliances can earn isk based on how much their system is used. This creates incentives for them to open the space up and make it safe for neutrals. With neutrals comes action and shake ups. Another thing that I don't think you are considering is that PL hotdropping lone small T1 ships with super capital fleets when they are bored only happens because if things get hot fast they can get support quickly. Restricting the ability to bring in back up quickly in some cases will reduce the useage of capitals not increase. Well I guess like you guys said we'll see how things shake out. I just think you guys are barking up all the wrong trees and in recent years I seem to be proven correct more often than not on this kind of stuff. The other consideration that you guys need to take into account is that you just had an expansion that increased the need to jump stuff in and out of null for the industry of this game to function and now you are going to jack around with jumping mechanics? It just has bad idea written all over it.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 179	Posted - 2014.10.02 03:09:00 - [2] - Quote Arkon Olacar wrote: Are you guys high? No seriously, have any of the people who came up with these changes ever played Eve before? You've just killed off nullsec logistics singlehandedly. You've just made the minimum requirement to be in null the ability to fly an interceptor. You've just killed black ops fleets. You've made it impossible to enter half the regions in the game without using a gate. You've just made it impossible to live in most of the NPC null regions. You've not restricted capital fights, you've eliminated them from the game entirely. Are we being trolled? Are you trying to kill off your own game? I have to kind of agree with this guy. I'm not much of a PvPer. On my main I'm the guy that corpies ask to move stuff in and out of NPC null or Provi or low sec or where ever. There are times when I need to move my cyno alt to 3 different times just to pick up the ships I'm moving and then 3 or 4 stops in the chain to get to where they are going and then another 3 or 4 jumps to get my carrier back to it's home. I fly: carriers, Rorquals and Jump Freighters. I've never had a carrier in combat I only use them for logistics as in moving ships around. I can say this will seriously hamper those activities and that will in most cases lead to me telling the newer player looking to get set up in null that he's on his own. As things are currently it can take me all night just to move a few ships to NPC null for a friend. The changes that you guy propose here make that a 2 full nights of moving cyno alts and jumping things around. So you start off making cynoing stuff around null more important than it already was with the industry changes and now you make the least fun activity in the game which is null sec logistics even more like seeing how many times you can slam you **** with a door before you pass out from the pain. Maybe you guys should try playing this game sometime. Do me a favor. Get in a carrier and travel fit it. Then I want you to jump to some low sec system on the other side of the map and pick up a few ships then jump them deep into NPC null to the furthest back corner system that some player new to null is going to likely want to start out at and then tell me if you guys still want to make these changes. Oh and make sure you are not on company time while you are doing all this. I don't want you getting paid for it. That would change the experience.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 179	Posted - 2014.10.02 03:21:00 - [3] - Quote Obsidian Hawk wrote: Retar Aveymone wrote: The abolition of podjumping makes it massively difficult for our newbies to join us in Deklein. Has any thought been put into that? Then they can put on big boy pants and fly out there like everyone else did, have organized fleet ops and escorts to move cargo out there like everyone else did. 0.0 can afford to get off their butts and do hauler escorts to move people out there. If you are in an alliance then you should work at one. My first 0.0 experience was moving my corp out of branch and escorting 2 full iteron V's from K8- to NGM in the drone regions. 53 jumps of 0.0 goodness. And how did i get out to k8? I loaded up an atron with the clothes on my back and flew out there like a bat out of hell. How many years ago was that? Eve is different now. If you want to go back to those days don't be surprised if the sub numbers similarly revert.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 179	Posted - 2014.10.02 05:41:00 - [4] - Quote The type of person that likes to PvP and the type of person that gets off doing industrial stuff are typically not the same person at least from most of the players I've met. You can't just run around to different null stations and pick up mods and stuff to fit out a ship like you can in high sec. Sure you will maybe increase the amount of stuff on a local market to some degree but you will make living in null significantly more difficult. There is no way that every station in game will be stocked up or that you will be able to fit out a ship in most null sec systems completely with stuff off the market. You've just nerfed scrap metal from melting loot so people that rated and used loot to melt and make ships and ammo etc. are already having issues. I am guessing that if these changes go through that to live in null you will have to be self sustaining meaning that you'll have to build your own ships, your own mods, your own ammo, your own rigs. This means stock piling BPCs and having to wait for jobs to finish before you can fly a ship. Also it means flying meta 0 mods since that's what you can make. To be in null you'll have to have both industrial and combat skills pretty high. The barrier to entry for newer players will be raised. I think less people will live in null not more or at least less players in deep null. CCP why does it seem that when thinking about changing game play you seem to more often choose the stick instead of the carrot?
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 180	Posted - 2014.10.02 15:20:00 - [5] - Quote so after pondering this and reading some of the posts I came up with this idea: Leave the jump mechanics as they are but change cyno beacons so that each beacon can only be used once. Also remove the movement restrictions from cynos. We could adds a timer either to the ship or to the toon so they can't lite another beacon for 10 minutes. This would allow all the small guys to jump stuff around and continue living in null and also allow the big guys to continue their large scale industrial operations while at the same time removing hot drops as we know them from the game. In order to hot drop each ship would need to have a cyno so for example a titan bridge could jump in one ship that ship could carry a beacon and cyno in another and so on and so forth. I can think of a lot of ways this can be tweaked to come up with different affects but that's the basic idea I'd like to throw out there.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 180	Posted - 2014.10.02 15:38:00 - [6] - Quote Another idea would be to separate the two roles. You'd have to introduce a new ship or just change Rorquals and Orca to fill the logistical role that Carriers are currently used for and then keep these changes for combat ships ( Titans, Dreads and Carriers / Moms ) and then keep the current jump mechanics for logistics ships ( JFs, Rorquals and then what ever ship you use to fill the move assembled ships around role ).
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 181	Posted - 2014.10.02 16:22:00 - [7] - Quote I'm not sure what imaginary world you live in that you think making null sec supply logistics difficult will some how increase null sec residency or newbies moving to null or new alliances for that matter but it seems to defy any kind of logic. I think you seriously need to reconsider separating supply ships and combat ships from these changes. The bigger Alliances will be able to require more people to train up jump skills and move goods and material around with multiple toons jumping the same ship to avoid large timers. The people that will be affected by this the most are newer and smaller players and Alliances which are from what I gather the exact people you are hoping to attract out there. I would at this point like to note that I live close enough to high sec that this will not affect my personal play style. It will only affect how I help others which is typically newer players looking to get their feet wet in null. Every player's time has a certain value. If you need 20 PvPers to escort a couple of industrial ships every time you want to move something through null then each and every one of the 20 PvPers will need to be cut in on the profits or they'll be off ratting for 20+ million isk bounty ticks. One way or another that support is costing you Billions of isk per hour. Those costs will eventually be passed on to the cost of the end product which means deep null will be dead. The only people living in deep null will be the ones who don't mind working their way back there with a bunch of BPCs and being stuck out there in a system with a station flying T1 ships with meta 0 mods and having to build everything themselves. There will be no local markets nor players to sell to if you wanted to try and start a market. I'm not saying that no one will adapt and that no one will live in deep null. What I am saying is that the general trend will likely be less people living in null in general with the rate of attrition being proportional to the distance from high sec.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 182	Posted - 2014.10.02 16:44:00 - [8] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: - Cyno mass limits mean the alliance willing to create the most cyno alts wins, this is not a good thing to incentivize. So make it so that the Alliance with the most Jump capable alts wins? Shortening the jump range makes it so that you will need more cyno alts to do the same moving of goods. The addition of the cool down timer now makes it so that you need to train additional JF pilot alts. CCP Greyscale wrote: - There's not that more to measure - we've had a good long think about this, we think it's the right thing to do, but EVE is a sufficiently complex system that there's no way to know what the outcome is without shipping it to TQ, and a few extra months of theorycrafting won't change that fact, unfortunately. This is an extremely arrogant comment. With all the holes that various people in these forums have pointed out about your basic theory I think it's sufficient to say that you have not thought this out very well at all and could stand to think this through a little better. You say that you are putting this out there because you want our input but most of your answers can be summed up as " I know what I'm doing you all are just ignorant cry babies". So many times in past changes average players have warned you on these forums and been proven correct. Further even after you guys make changes and they don't pan out well it is very rare that you ever revert or go back and fix things. Adding back ship spinning is the only exception to this and that took weeks of player protests to make happen. You guys have a history of introducing broken mechanics and then moving on to the next thing to break without looking back.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 182	Posted - 2014.10.02 17:00:00 - [9] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: a) Jump alts don't scale in a way that makes them actually practicable (one per ship per 10LY), and b) pilots are generally a stronger limiting factor than ships. This is only true for the smaller Alliances. This will not be much of a limiting factor at all for the larger Alliances with large numbers of members. At best it will do one of two things or more likely a bit of both. 1) get more people involved in logistics. So instead of having a dedicated logistics team you will need to have more members come do a jump or two and then go back to what ever they were doing before. 2) increase the value of jump capable pilots and the number active accounts everyone involved in logistics has to have.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 182	Posted - 2014.10.02 17:19:00 - [10] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: TerminalSamurai Sunji wrote: I'm just curious, if the plan is to reduce power projection, and the ship is what's being limited in jump range, why is the timer being attached to the pilot and not the ship? IE if a titan gets jumped, put the 'fatigue' timer on the actual ship. I'm not suggesting this as a fix, just that attaching a 'jump fatigue' to a character doesn't make much sense to me, where as I could understand a ships drives having to 'cool down' before re using them. Can the current game mechanics allow a timer to be attached to a ship? Reasoning here is that in most cases, pilots are a bigger bottleneck than ships - building a carrier chain to move your cap pilots around is simpler and more cost-effective than building an alt chain to move your carrier around. We could put a timer on both, but we'd rather keep it simple (plus it's really hard to persist things on ships that get repackaged). Make it so that the ship can not be repackaged if it has a timer. That solves that. Putting the timer on the ship makes it so you can limit what you want to limit and not what you don't. More specifically you could limit combat ships and not logistics ships. And / or limit super caps more than sub caps etc. If you think that Alliances the size of PL and Goons are not going to buy up and / or skill up a bunch of jump capable alts to get around this then you've not played this game before. It's easy enough to look at what jump alts are going for and see that any alliance capable of fielding 100+ supers in a fight can also afford 100+ alts to pilot them.

ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 182	Posted - 2014.10.02 17:26:00 - [11] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: Planned new feature to address new player movement: For players less than thirty days old, once per player corporation joined, and For all players, once a year You may push a button in your corp interface (while a member of a player corp and docked) that: - Moves your medical clone to a station designated by your corporation, and - Automatically moves you to your medical clone Exact method of corporations designating target station still being ironed out, but it will involve at the very least being able to designate a default station for all corp members, and will likely be allowed for any station with a corp office, regardless of system sec status. This seems to us like it solves the "I want to recruit people to nullsec" concern, and also gives non-nullsec recruiters an easier way to get genuinely new players to the right location easily. Thoughts? Pasting this into the FAQ and also trying to get it into the blog proper. This does not address the issue of the new player in a noob corp exploring null that gets caught in null with a bubbled exit gate and no way out. Every player should be able at any time to at least choose to have his home station be set back to his birth station regardless of corp affilitation. Also you just introduce corp hopping to get around timers much like people to now to get jump clone access.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 184	Posted - 2014.10.02 17:40:00 - [12] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: It's going to have a significant impact, to be sure, and that's something we need to keep an eye on. At the same time, though, people built T2 ships and modules before jump freighters existed, so we're somewhat skeptical of the argument that that T2 construction is impossible without JFs. Greyscale this is a serious question. How much do you actually play this game? I mean not how much do you log in at the office while you are getting paid and trying to do your job I mean how much do you actually "play" the game. I strongly suggest that you hold off on these changes and get an alt involved in null sec industrial supply logistics and see if these changes still make sense. Maybe you and a few of the other devs could set up a corp of alts and try to do T2 invention and manufacturing deep in NPC null or rent a system without a station deep in null and let me know how that works out for you. My guess is you'll have a very different opinion on this. Or you could just release you opinion based on ( what I am guessing is ) almost no actual in game experience on TQ and let the chips fall where they may.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 184	Posted - 2014.10.02 19:35:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: Retar Aveymone wrote: CCP Greyscale wrote: It's going to have a significant impact, to be sure, and that's something we need to keep an eye on. At the same time, though, people built T2 ships and modules before jump freighters existed, so we're somewhat skeptical of the argument that that T2 construction is impossible without JFs. They used carriers, which were longer range than current JFs. JFs were introduced with the carrier nerf (before then, you'd load up iterons in your carrier and it effectively held ~200km3) T2 production has never existed in any serious amount without long-range jump capability, as you'll find in the short period between Castor and Cold War (dreadnaughts can haul) there was very little t2 manufacturing (no invention, t2 expensive as all ******* hell and everyones poor). Yup, true, although if memory serves the optimal setup was mammoth+hoarder. I've also seen it done with mundane freighter convoys in the past. It'll be harder, for sure, but let's not get ahead of ourselves and say that this change makes getting moon mins to empire impossible. Absolutes are never absolute. It seems obvious to me that his use of the word "impossible" here is a hyperbole much in the way that Vicinni used the word "inconceivable" in the movie "The Princess Bride". What also seem obvious to me is that you want to reduce the ability to move materials around to a level even lower than when T2 ships were so expensive that they were out of grasp for average players and at the same time seem to think that there will be no significant increase in the cost of T2 . Yes certainly some people will start moving stuff around with combat supported industrial fleets but that won't happen in any large way until moon goo prices shoot way up beyond where they are now and even then deep null sec systems will see a serious drop off in usage. I can only assume that you are planning some revamp of moon goo mining in the recent future that will allow players to get the various types of materials that they need all locally much in the way ore and mineral acquisition works today and have this dream of independent local self-sustaining market hubs will pop up deep in null: 1) I just don't see this happening at the level I'm guessing you are thinking it will. 2) I don't see how you can have a thriving economy if you are only selling to locals. 3) In the spirit of Inigo Montoya "This phrase ""Risk versus reward"" I don't think it means what you think it means". I mean industrialist running around null with Billions of isk worth of moon goo or T2 products to earn a couple of percent profit at market versus PvPers in cheap ships that they planed on loosing anyway, that equation just adds up to extreme increases in the price of anything T2. CCP Greyscale wrote: A major goal of this change is to make you not take your supercap that sort of distance on a regular basis. If the changes are making you say "OK, I'm never taking my super long distances ever again", that means they're actually working. Then why are you nerfing BlOps and logistics at the same time? I recently started training up Black Ops and covert cyno skills on my main and a couple alts so that I could finally run some of these null sec escalations that I get as they are always 14+ jumps away in hostile territory and there is almost always a bubble camp inbetween me and the escalation system. Sure I could still do that on a one off basis but saving a couple of these up so me and friends could run them together just won't happen with these changes. This kinda messes up the remap that I just commited to for the next year about a week and a half ago.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 185	Posted - 2014.10.02 20:19:00 - [14] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: For the majority of applications this is not an efficient option vs just using a jump bridge, so we do not believe that jump bridges are "useless" under this system when compared to titans. Jump bridges have a significant cost to maintain them as well as having to sacrifice 2 upgrade slots for every link. They can only be used to link systems that you own. They can not be used directly for offense in the way that a titan jump bridge can be used to hot drop. It's been a while since I lived deep enough into null that I had use for JBs but when I did they were great for moving stuff around. We used to run mining ops and use the JB to move our ore back to station where it could be used. This seems to make that not viable. It seems you'll still be able to use JBs for the occasional flanking of a red roam it's only the habitual users like miners and industrialist that get hit with this nerf or at least to a greater degree. Since JBs can't be used to hot drop you might want to treat them more like JFs than titan bridges. It seems like a reasonable guess that while these changes don't make JBs useless they will almost certainly cause a significant reduction in the number of them in use.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 186	Posted - 2014.10.03 00:01:00 - [15] - Quote Gospadin wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: Restricting the ability to bring in back up quickly in some cases will reduce the useage of capitals not increase. You perfectly summed up the point of the changes, which is hindering power projection across the map. Either you didn't read if tully or I did not understand it correctly because he said these changes would lead to caps being used more often but in smaller numbers. I was pointing out that it might not work as he expected.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 186	Posted - 2014.10.03 00:06:00 - [16] - Quote Kalissis wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: Arkon Olacar wrote: Are you guys high? No seriously, have any of the people who came up with these changes ever played Eve before? You've just killed off nullsec logistics singlehandedly. You've just made the minimum requirement to be in null the ability to fly an interceptor. You've just killed black ops fleets. You've made it impossible to enter half the regions in the game without using a gate. You've just made it impossible to live in most of the NPC null regions. You've not restricted capital fights, you've eliminated them from the game entirely. Are we being trolled? Are you trying to kill off your own game? I have to kind of agree with this guy. I'm not much of a PvPer. On my main I'm the guy that corpies ask to move stuff in and out of NPC null or Provi or low sec or where ever. There are times when I need to move my cyno alt to 3 different times just to pick up the ships I'm moving and then 3 or 4 stops in the chain to get to where they are going and then another 3 or 4 jumps to get my carrier ba.. [...] ... map and pick up a few ships then jump them deep into NPC null to the furthest back corner system that some player new to null is going to likely want to start out at and then tell me if you guys still want to make these changes. Oh and make sure you are not on company time while you are doing all this. I don't want you getting paid for it. That would change the experience. So what you are saying is that "new" players already have carriers, well surprise: they are likely not new! There are still so much ways to work around that and be good at logistics, one example: WH! Did you even read what I wrote? I said I jump stuff around in my carrier for new players that can't fly one yet.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 187	Posted - 2014.10.03 04:47:00 - [17] - Quote A couple of notes to all the people saying adapt or die: First off people will adapt or die that's not really a choice it's more of a state of affairs. I think what you are completely forgetting is that adapting could mean very few people living much further than 5 LY from a system with a station and a high sec connection. I haven't read every single post but I've scanned over more than half of this so far and my subjective opinion is as far as cap ship pilots it seems that more of the big alliances are applauding this and more of the small guys are saying it's not so good. Also combat pilots seem to be more happy with this than logistics pilots. Sure some people will start moving stuff around with escorted industrials that will happen but most likely not at a rate to make up for all of the lost JF trips. I see no way you can increase the difficulty of moving freight around null by this much and not have it affect supply and therefore pricing. For those of you saying "yay high prices I get to make ass tons of isk" The prices will be high because the volume won't be there. I see no way that you can have vibrant local economies without the ability to transport goods to other regions for trade. This tendency to move stuff to market hubs and then back out to the boondocks is not unique to eve nor is it new. Look at your history books. Also the Jita model is how Fed Ex and UPS operate today. They move everything to central hubs and then back out to the destinations from there. I went to Spain a few years ago shortly after they had built this huge expressway system across the country. Towns near exits to the new express way were blowing up and booming. Then I went off those expressways and traveled the old 2 lane highways and saw towns shriveling and dying. Restaurants and gas stations boarding up and closing. We had the same thing happen here in the states in the 50's when the Eisenhower highway system made old route 66 obsolete and it eventually just shut down. CCP isnt' building an Eisenhower expressway system. They are tearing up route 66 And to the people saying that local economies will start supplying local pilots I am just going to predict that it does not happen that way. I'm saying for the record that barring some other unannounced changes that I am not privy to this will turn anything much more than 5 LY from a system with a high sec connection into more of a ghost town than it already is. Destructible outposts I think will only make all of this worse. You just can't have a lot of small gang PvP going on without supplying them ships to loose. These jump mechanics nerf hauling which will effectively nerf PvP. There is only one real commodity in this game and that is time. I think if you want to predict how things are going to shake out in this game you need to break it down to time spent earning or building ships to time spent loosing them that ratio will tell you everything. These changes are going to mean more time spent hauling, waiting out timers and building all your own stuff and less time spent PvPing.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 190	Posted - 2014.10.03 05:40:00 - [18] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: Jump length distance has almost no impact on travel time, number of midpoints is largely irrelevant to travel time when fatigue is a factor. this makes no sense to me. How can number of mid points be largely irrelevant when every time you make a jump you add one plus the distance and the multiply? It would seem number of midpoints would exponentially increase travel time. Also for the small guys with limited cyno alts jump lenght or more specifically number of jumps does significantly increase travel time as you have to reposition cyno alts. It's only the large alliances which are not affected by this.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 190	Posted - 2014.10.03 05:47:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Greyscale wrote: No, because complicated math is already too common in EVE. Sometimes it's necessary. Here, it's not. CCP Greyscale why you hate maths so much? Did you have a mean math teacher in grade school? All joking aside what's your issue with a fairly simple equation? Like has been stated it's all going to be done behind the scenes on dotlan and out of game apps anyway. It's not like players will ever have to sit down with a pencil and paper and figure this out. If a little math makes things better just do it.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 191	Posted - 2014.10.03 06:01:00 - [20] - Quote Rowells wrote: A healthy local economy will most like provide the materials it can produce to its pilots (plenty of T1 ships) while the materials that cannot be procured there will either be found in highsec or in agreements with local groups. Keep in mind not every need will be met and this will create shortages on certain supplies and possible surpluses for others. Those are what should be traded. Because logistics just became harder, not impossible. I've lived in null under several different situations some deep some close to high sec some with start up renters and once with a big well established Alliance in a -1.0 station. I've never seen a local economy in null that was healthy enough to not need regular trips to high sec. I've seen nothing in the industrial patch that will change that to any large degree. I think both you and Greyscale are missing some basic concepts of how the human brain works as well as some social concepts that you are ignoring. Yes to some degree what you said here will need to happen and will happen no doubt about that. What I am saying here is that the net affect of these changes barring some other huge bombshell game changer that they drop on us will be less active null and null activity being exponentially inverse to it's distance beyond 5 LY from a HS gate system.

ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 191	Posted - 2014.10.03 06:17:00 - [21] - Quote Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: This is an extremely arrogant comment. I'd say it's not nearly as arrogant as the people so sure this will be the end of the world before they've even seen it in action. Putting my opinion out there for the record so that after time passes we can see if I am correct or not is not arrogant. Completely dismissing someone else's out of hand however is. I never said this will be the end of the world. I never threatened to rage quit as a matter of fact I've said these changes won't affect me at all since I live less than 5 LY from high sec. I gave my prediction on how I think this will affect things and what I thought could be better ways to make changes. Maybe you should read entire posts before taking something out of context and commenting.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 193	Posted - 2014.10.03 14:26:00 - [22] - Quote Frostys Virpio wrote: Jenn aSide wrote: This is what happened last time CCP tried to 'stimulate conflict' (using the same "nerf things till people fight" thinking as displayed with the current changes). Their moon change to create conflict did work tho. An entire coalition was destroyed when they shuffled some moons around. Passive income is not good for the game imho. It may have stimulated conflict but things settled out and I think it's a big part of why we have large dug in power blocks today.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 193	Posted - 2014.10.03 14:45:00 - [23] - Quote Kal Azkar wrote: This idea is terrible, and trying to fix it is just making it worse... there are lots of other methods I am sure, but I question why are we only getting answers from the Devs when suggestions are being made. The Devs are paid money by CCP from our Subs to create ways for the paying customers to have fun and enjoy their time. CCP is a corporate entity. It's job and there fore everyone that works for them's job is to make money. If there was a way I could emphasize the period on the end of "make money." I would because that is it end of story. The Devs job is not to create ways for paying customers to have fun they increase your fun level only in as much as it increases or at least as much as they think it will increase their bottom line. Now-a-days most game manufacturers higher Psychiatrists and Psychologists to advise them on how to get people to continue to pay money. The lawyers and the bean counters also have a say in this. You many say well obviously if the game is fun then they'll make money and the more fun the game is the more money they will make but you are wrong or at least the business model of today will tell them you are wrong. Cigarette manufacturers didn't look for ways to make cigarettes taste better or anything like that they looked for ways to make them more addictive. Food manufacturers put sugar and corn sweeteners into most of our food for the same reason. TV shows often are not as concerned with making a show that you enjoy watching so much as they are making sure that you tune in next week which is why we have cliff hangars not only at the end of every show but just before each commercial break. Like wise CCP is more focused on getting you "hooked" on the game than they are making sure you have fun. They want your money not your fun.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 193	Posted - 2014.10.03 15:15:00 - [24] - Quote Viceversa wrote: What is the reason of nerfing JF? Has anyone been afraid of JF drops? I believe they are under the impression that it will stimulate local economies and local production. Either that or they just want to triple the number of cyno alts that you need.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 196	Posted - 2014.10.03 21:21:00 - [25] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: Hooray! Maybe there will be less PL and SCUM hotdropping shenanigans in low-sec after this! Getting dropped by 10+ supercarriers from the outer reaches of null-sec because you have 5 battleships in a 20 man gang of cruisers and frigates is just bad. I had a buddy in a lone cruiser that went to defend a lone miner that was getting attacked by a red cruiser get hot dropped by a PL super cap fleet. There were 7 supers on his loss mail for a lone T1 cruiser. It may be over doing it but it was funny as hell I have to admit.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 196	Posted - 2014.10.03 21:28:00 - [26] - Quote Rowells wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: Rowells wrote: A healthy local economy will most like provide the materials it can produce to its pilots (plenty of T1 ships) while the materials that cannot be procured there will either be found in highsec or in agreements with local groups. Keep in mind not every need will be met and this will create shortages on certain supplies and possible surpluses for others. Those are what should be traded. Because logistics just became harder, not impossible. I've lived in null under several different situations some deep some close to high sec some with start up renters and once with a big well established Alliance in a -1.0 station. I've never seen a local economy in null that was healthy enough to not need regular trips to high sec. I've seen nothing in the industrial patch that will change that to any large degree. I think both you and Greyscale are missing some basic concepts of how the human brain works as well as some social concepts that you are ignoring. Yes to some degree what you said here will need to happen and will happen no doubt about that. What I am saying here is that the net affect of these changes barring some other huge bombshell game changer that they drop on us will be less active null and null activity being exponentially inverse to it's distance beyond 5 LY from a HS gate system. Those examples were under the current system. Things being spuer-mass produced in highsec+relatively cheap movement of materials made it extremely easy for industrialists to do everything themselves. Some people would even ship their materials to highsec to get quicker deals. As logistic costs go up, youll see an oppurtunity grow for local production to pick up on those profits. Will there likely be an overall increase in everything dealing with nullsec? very likely. And i think that the aspect of materials and rewards in null needs to be looked at again after the changes. I think you are missing the point. I'm saying that the relatively cheap movement of goods is what allowed for the population levels in null without it I think that population will decrease. I think you are saying that when cheap freight goes away that population will stay roughly the same or go up and local suppuly will pick up the slack. I guess we'll see who's closer to correct in a few months.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 197	Posted - 2014.10.03 23:23:00 - [27] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: Alp Khan wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: Kal Azkar wrote: This idea is terrible, and trying to fix it is just making it worse... there are lots of other methods I am sure, but I question why are we only getting answers from the Devs when suggestions are being made. The Devs are paid money by CCP from our Subs to create ways for the paying customers to have fun and enjoy their time. CCP is a corporate entity. It's job and there fore everyone that works for them's job is to make money. If there was a way I could emphasize the period on the end of "make money." I would because that is it end of story. The Devs job is not to create ways for paying customers to have fun they increase your fun level only in as much as it increases or at least as much as they think it will increase their bottom line. Now-a-days most game manufacturers higher Psychiatrists and Psychologists to advise them on how to get people to continue to pay money. The lawyers and the bean counters also have a say in this. You many say well obviously if the game is fun then they'll make money and the more fun the game is the more money they will make but you are wrong or at least the business model of today will tell them you are wrong. Cigarette manufacturers didn't look for ways to make cigarettes taste better or anything like that they looked for ways to make them more addictive. Food manufacturers put sugar and corn sweeteners into most of our food for the same reason. TV shows often are not as concerned with making a show that you enjoy watching so much as they are making sure that you tune in next week which is why we have cliff hangars not only at the end of every show but just before each commercial break. Like wise CCP is more focused on getting you "hooked" on the game than they are making sure you have fun. They want your money not your fun. However, the reality with the computer games is that once they stop being satisfying, entertaining and being fun, consumers (players) move on to alternatives, and drop your product. Sicne this is a PVP game, the main fun focus shoudl be changes that create more confict... like this one. Thanks for supporting the changes then. I don't PvP and I play this game. I do not support the changes to freight transport. As far as people stopping playing a game when it's not fun that's debatable. However I wasn't argueing any of these points. I was simply pointing out to the OP that CCP measures it's success in dollars and not units of player fun.
ergherhdfgh Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 201	Posted - 2014.10.03 23:47:00 - [28] - Quote Kagura Nikon wrote: ergherhdfgh wrote: Viceversa wrote: What is the reason of nerfing JF? Has anyone been afraid of JF drops? I believe they are under the impression that it will stimulate local economies and local production. Either that or they just want to triple the number of cyno alts that you need. No. They want the freighters to be moved with SCOUTs and escort and not be super safe. They want to add content, conflict. Things to hunt Make trade routes have systems, not only a start and end point magically linked. They want piracy back. Well I know that pirates want to get juicy freighter KMs. I'm not sure I understand why but I know it's a thing. However just because PvP pilots want that does not mean it will be good for the game to give it to them. PvP pilots out on a roam are in ships the fully expect to loose. Those ships are insured and in most cases the pilot considers the ship lost as soon as he undocks and if he makes it back home still in the ship he left in it's just a bonus. The pilot moving goods however usually has very expensive cargo that in most cases he or his corp / alliance went out of pocket for. Loosing that ship and it's cargo is usually not only not planed but typically a sizable set back. Now you can say adapt or die and you'll be right in order to succeed in this game you will need to adapt to the new mechanics. However high risk and heavy losses like this will likely lead to lower volume and higher prices. I can only see this leading to less PvP. I mean you need ships to loose after all. Well I guess people could fight in noob ships. In real world warfare you will see supply lines and factories attacked as primary targets. This is because it is the most effective way to beat your enemy. The problem is that in real world war the object is to to win and end the fighting. In this game the goal is to keep the fighting going. I just think that any game mechanic that makes moving freight more difficult will also slow down the amount of PvP.

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